EV Digest 3259
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sniff test
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: EV picture donations - EV1 grave..........ouch
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Newbie Question, Solargizer Battery Maintenance System
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: motor mounts
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: opinions needed
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: opinions needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
8) EV Album and EV Tradin Post Down (was Re: opinions needed)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sniff test
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Sniff test
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: opinions needed
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: PFC-20 remote control (was Wabbit Weport)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: motor mounts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Sniff test
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) New Toyota Hybrid SUV
by "Steven S. Lough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: which car to convert, was motor mounts
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: motor mounts
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
<<Okay, Lee? Rich? Others? What am I missing, as
these are billed as the greatest thing since sliced
bread? Gels have been around forever as motorcycle
batts. Calcium as a catalyst-- been there, done that.
So it sounds like we need a test bed EV to be a guinea
pig, and exchange (a depreciating dollar) rates with
the pound? Hmmm, how many time zones do I cross as I
call?>>
The specs at the site don't look any different than any other gel-cell, and the
AGMs don't equal Hawkers, so what's so interesting besides the hype?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Richard Bebbington wrote:
> Man, that makes me want to be sick.
>
> What a waste!
>
> When I was at EVS17 in Montreal, I was lucky enough to get a
drive in
> an EV1. It was awesome, and got me hooked on electric cars. To
think it's
> come to this...
>
> After seeing that, I'll never buy a GM car if I can help it.
> As various people on this list have said,
> "Stuff 'em [ re: the big 3 ], we'll build our own EVs."
Ditto. And I'll add Toyota and Honda, if for nothing else their
endless "an electric motor that never needs plugged in"
statements (I've come so close to lighting a fire under their
tushes, but have managed to restrain myself - so far!, now, now,
calm down puppy...). And all the rest of the auto miasma
fashion-ego corporate world - I ain't spending my bucks to
support them - money talks! No new car in my garage! Just
imagine what would happen if people quit buying all those new
SUVs and other gas-powered vehicles. Just say "NO!".
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> 1sclunn wrote:
> >> The previous owner gave me some 24v solargizer units...
>
> > ahh but they sound so good, I tried one out years ago, put it
on the
> > 2 6v batteries in the front of my 20 battery EV Ranger, and
they
> > were the first to die... Lee, do you think they might work
under the
> > "right" conditions and what would they be. Wouldn't any
switching
> > type charger give the same square wave out put that they talk
> > about, that allegedly brakes down the sulfite.
>
> The problem with all sorts of 'miracle' devices like this is
that they
> sell them with marketing hype, and depend on testimonials and
> pseudoscience to 'prove' that they work. They never run any
objective
> tests to find out if the device actually works.
>
> I haven't tested this particular product (it would be
impossible to test
> every product -- there are hundreds of these miracle pulsers
being
> marketed). But I have tested a couple different kinds, and they
showed
> no positive benefits at all.
>
> I can't say that there will *never* be a case where one of
these pulsers
> might work and do something useful. But, I don't see any
mechanism for
> it.
I second Lee on this. I've tried the Power Pulse's (12V) and the
CAN-pulse (96V). The latter definitely seems to pack more
current in its pulse, but neither seemed to do anything I could
detect over the noise in my tests (battery capacity and
hydrometer readings). I've left the CAN-pulse in for grins (it's
got a light that lights up when the 96V pack is over 103.5V, so I
know my charger is doing something...), and it covers up the two
ugly velcro strips I used to mount it with.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > When you guys make an adapter for your electric motor, do you
keep the
> > rubber motor mount or do you eliminate them. Are they there
for
> > vibration or torque supression.
>
> Many purpose-built electric vehicles do not have rubber motor
mounts;
> the motor is hard-mounted directly to the frame. Electric
motors are so
> quiet and vibration-free that you can get away with this.
>
> However, when you are doing an EV conversion, you may find that
you get
> excessive transmission and differential noise. This mainly
manifests
> itself as gear whine. For example, my ComutaVan had its motor
> hard-monted to the frame, along with a Borg-Warner 3-speed
manual
> transmisison. The motor itself was nearly silent; what little
noise it
> made was drowned out by gear whine, especially in 1st and
reverse.
I have trouble telling whether the whine noise is commutator
noise, gear noise, or gear slop, or some of each (probably so).
My motor will start buzzing (maybe some fan noise) when I get
good and wrapped up in 1st and 2nd gear (it will make the
rear-view mirror blur, particularly in 2nd at about 30mph and
upwards towards 40-45mph). The clutch was balanced and reduced
(starter teeth cut off) when we did the conversion in 1994, but
it has occurred to me since that it should have been balanced as
a unit with the motor. I've had it suggested to me that I could
some better motor mounts.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jan 2004 at 5:28, vinnybrain wrote:
> thats why I put airbag spring
> inserts in last year.
When you suggest 1700 lb of lead in a Geo Metro, you are talking about a
severe overload. The battery mass alone is about as much as some years
weighed in gas trim!
There is more to correcting for that than increasing spring rates or
inserting air springs. You are creating a vehicle which is apt to have some
dangerous and/or unpredictable handling qualities. Ask Bob Rice what it was
like driving the EFP Renault R10s with about that much lead in them.
Then there's the issue of durability; doubling the design load will be
murder on the suspension attachment points and wheel bearings. You will
also get excessive body flex, which will tend to open up welded joints in
the body structure.
And then there's brakes. Just wait until you stand on the pedal and try to
stop 3000+ lb of Metro with those tiny Metro brakes and tires. And just
what ARE you going to do about tires with higher load capacity?
Besides, I don't know where you'd put all those batteries in a Metro. You
sure won't be able to keep them all low in the chassis. This will shift the
center of mass upward, causing greater body pitch and lean. I can tell you
from experience that driving a car like that is like riding a bike while
wearing a 35 lb backpack - not very pleasant.
I suppose all of this is correctable, if you have the expertise and money.
You can weld in body reinforcement if you know where it's needed. You can
find brakes and tires from some larger car and make them fit. You can make
drastic floorpan modifications to find places for the batteries. But why?
It seems to me the practical answers are:
1. Use a moderate to high voltage single string of Optimas or similar AGMs
to make this a relatively short-range, quick and fun EV.
2. Use advanced batteries (NiCd, NiZn, NiMH, possibly LiIon) to get range
without so much mass.
3. Choose a vehicle that can handle the mass better than the Metro.
Not to frighten you, but if you do build this car with that much battery
mass, and without the extensive modification it needs, I suggest that when
you're done with it you junk it. Not only will the weight have stressed the
chassis excessively, selling it to someone as a used EV could leave you open
to legal liability if he has a collision.
Good luck!
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:10 PM 01/04/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Better to buy an already-done conversion, usually for less than the parts
in it
would run when new: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html
that link does not work, do you have an updated one? thanks.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>Better to buy an already-done conversion, usually for less than the parts in
>>it would run when new: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html
>that link does not work, do you have an updated one? thanks.
Uh, oh! Paging Mike Chauncy! Something's up with your server!! Their site has
had some "connectivity problems", so there's no other link - even the home site
for austinev.org won't work now. Maybe this is karma for not sending Mike some
money for all the free services he's been providing the EV community. All we
can do is wait and see if it comes online again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like the server needs restarting and I sent a note to Aaron about
it last night. Hopefully he will be able to kick it back to life
soon. For some reason I can't get my home backup server to come up
either. Grrr! I will do what I can ASAP, but I have to go work at my
real job now.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey
At 05:50 AM 1/5/2004, you wrote:
>>Better to buy an already-done conversion, usually for less than the
parts in
>>it would run when new: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html
>that link does not work, do you have an updated one? thanks.
Uh, oh! Paging Mike Chauncy! Something's up with your server!! Their site has
had some "connectivity problems", so there's no other link - even the home
site
for austinev.org won't work now. Maybe this is karma for not sending Mike some
money for all the free services he's been providing the EV community. All we
can do is wait and see if it comes online again.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<Okay, Lee? Rich? Others? What am I missing, as
> these are billed as the greatest thing since sliced
> bread? Gels have been around forever as motorcycle
> batts. Calcium as a catalyst-- been there, done
> that.
>
> So it sounds like we need a test bed EV to be a
> guinea
> pig, and exchange (a depreciating dollar) rates with
> the pound? Hmmm, how many time zones do I cross as I
> call?>>
>
> The specs at the site don't look any different than
> any other gel-cell, and the
> AGMs don't equal Hawkers, so what's so interesting
> besides the hype?
>
That they describe it as lasting 12 years, for
starters...
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003
http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Very nice... I assume that in addition to getting the most from the
batteries, this is being used to make driving user friendly for Joe
Consumer. As in get in and drive, with no fussing over batteries. So a
Good Thing.
And it got me thinking... in a larger vehicle with multiple battery
strings, could have great redundancy built in. Rather than use buddy
pairs, keep the batteries as 2 (or more) separate strings, with a
contactor at the end of each string. If the Big Brain determines that a
battery module has gone terribly wrong, it takes that entire string out
of service, warns the driver, and adjusts the fuel gauge accordingly.
This could protect against a larger meltdown while still given the
driver a few miles of driving range.
It increases the cost for more modules, and still leaves the Big Brain
as a weak link, but would be nice to effectively have two fuel tanks to
choose from. Hmmmm...
Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
modular battery charging...
Well, we're working on such a system for the Tango right now. It's an
open design, in case anyone wants to duplicate it. But it will cost you
upwards of $150 per module.
Each battery gets a 12v 15amp charger, and microcomputer to monitor and
control it. They are networked together to a central microcomputer
running Linux. These modular chargers are about 6.5" x 3" x 1" and sit
right on each 12v battery. They are powered by a PFC front end from
90-265vac (while charging), or by the DC pack voltage as a whole (while
driving or for balancing).
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> The specs at the site don't look any different than
>> any other gel-cell, and the
>> AGMs don't equal Hawkers, so what's so interesting
>> besides the hype?
>
>That they describe it as lasting 12 years, for starters...
Probably not a measure of cycle-life, more like stand-by life for UPS's. I don't
think you can equate low self-discharge with low Peukert's values: the 100Ah
size is max rated for 5 second at 700A. The market for this brand of battery is
most likely *not* in EVs!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Link works fine for me!
Your pal,
Meat.
Brad Waddell wrote:
At 02:10 PM 01/04/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Better to buy an already-done conversion, usually for less than the
parts in it
would run when new: http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/geobook.html
that link does not work, do you have an updated one? thanks.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Rich Rudman wrote:
> it's 18 Deg F here in Kingston Wa.. Lee Hart. come and get your winter weather
> out of here please!!!
>
Yeah! Try that same 18 degrees, but with a hefty and steady 35 mph east wind coming at
you from the Columbia Gorge, gusting to 50 mph...that's the scoop here this morning in
Portland! Looking at 1/2 foot of snow minimum on its way, followed by freezing rain and
one of our east county's famous ice storms. I've been telling Victor about Portland's
c-cold, icy Winter weather for years...he's said bull to this, and for the past 5
years,
he's been right, as our Winters have been quite tepid for a long time. It seems the
Winter
we all remember, is back, with this latest blast being the 5th snowfall so far.
My race car's 10 kw generator, plus a bevy of inverters and battery banks, stand ready
to
supply the Wayland home with back-up power if (or when) the ice storm takes down Glisan
Street's 250 KV feed lines. The same NEMA 1450 - to - twist lock power cords that are
normally used to charge my EVs, serve double duty to connect the outside backup power
to
the house, via a weather-proof housing with a flange mount twist lock, at the rear
corner
of the house.
It should be a fun day, working on broken electric lift trucks in c-cold, unheated
warehouses and open docks!
See Ya.......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is somewhat different than the route listed on the web site. From
Weschester County to Trenton looks to be around 70 miles, and with an
overnight stop it is quite doable (assuming the stop has outlets for
charging). But then the Trenton to DC leg is over 160 miles so pretty
much requires a trailer. I think Seth M. wrote a good post back when he
was in the ATdS on the implications of EVs "needing" chase vehicles and
trailers. I'll have to talk to NESEA and find out which route is correct.
Not that I'm likely to enter as I have plenty else to do and already
test my EV on a daily basis. But if I did enter it would be after a new
pack (multiple strings of Orbitals :-) and a clear goal to out
accelerate everything else there. Unless Seth & Ben finish their
respective cars and show up in which case they'd toast me.
And yes I well remember "Helios the Heron"... made me want to teach...
thinking about it makes me want to get back into teaching (in a creative
school...). I was tangentially involved with a college car entry in an
early ATdS and had my own goofy e-bike in it a couple of years after
that, so yeah it influences students. If only I had had the EV list as a
resource back then :-)
M Bianchi wrote:
Nancy Hazard wrote ...
If you have a battery EV, don't be shy! We expect very lively competition for
battery EVs at the Tour de Sol next May, as well as many other alternative
fueled vehicles. In fact, from a competative perspective, we have one more
reliability run compared with last year.
We are still working out the details of the scheduling of the competition, but
follwing is a rundown of planned competative events.
While the Tour is in Westchester County, all vehicles will earn points for
numerous events:
Acceleration short and/or long test
Handling cone test + Autocross at Westchester or in Tretnon
Reliability a 40-50 mile loop which will start and end at
the Westchester site.
There will be two additional reliability runs - one from Westchester to the
overnight location, and one from the overnight location to the event in Trenton
NJ.
Range A range event will be held on Sunday and be connected
with the reliability run from Westchester County to
our overnight stop.
Efficiency Efficiency score will be based on recharging data
collected after each reliability and/or range events.
Greenhouse gas emissions are calculated from effiency
data collected above.
The final run from Trenton, NJ to Washington, DC will not be scored for any
vehicles. We invite entrants to trailer or drive their vehicles to the final
destination as they see fit.
For the first time we are also offering competative events and prizes for
neighborhood electric vehicles, electric bikes, scoooters etc.
If you have any further questions, please let me know!
Nancy Hazard
Tour de Sol Director
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
413 774-6051 x18
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I can offer my humble 240 outlet for TDS charging. I'm about a mile
off I95, just south of Baltimore MD (Relay, by the I195 intersection).
As for TDS, I could probably make it to DC on a charge if they have 240 volt
power for the MagneCharger. Even better, if they had a paddle :-)
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
> This is somewhat different than the route listed on the web site. From
> Weschester County to Trenton looks to be around 70 miles, and with an
> overnight stop it is quite doable (assuming the stop has outlets for
> charging). But then the Trenton to DC leg is over 160 miles so pretty
> much requires a trailer. I think Seth M. wrote a good post back when he
> was in the ATdS on the implications of EVs "needing" chase vehicles and
> trailers. I'll have to talk to NESEA and find out which route is correct.
>
> Not that I'm likely to enter as I have plenty else to do and already
> test my EV on a daily basis. But if I did enter it would be after a new
> pack (multiple strings of Orbitals :-) and a clear goal to out
> accelerate everything else there. Unless Seth & Ben finish their
> respective cars and show up in which case they'd toast me.
>
> And yes I well remember "Helios the Heron"... made me want to teach...
> thinking about it makes me want to get back into teaching (in a creative
> school...). I was tangentially involved with a college car entry in an
> early ATdS and had my own goofy e-bike in it a couple of years after
> that, so yeah it influences students. If only I had had the EV list as a
> resource back then :-)
>
>
> M Bianchi wrote:
> > Nancy Hazard wrote ...
> >
> > If you have a battery EV, don't be shy! We expect very lively
competition for
> > battery EVs at the Tour de Sol next May, as well as many other
alternative
> > fueled vehicles. In fact, from a competative perspective, we have one
more
> > reliability run compared with last year.
> >
> > We are still working out the details of the scheduling of the
competition, but
> > follwing is a rundown of planned competative events.
> >
> > While the Tour is in Westchester County, all vehicles will earn points
for
> > numerous events:
> >
> > Acceleration short and/or long test
> > Handling cone test + Autocross at Westchester or in
Tretnon
> > Reliability a 40-50 mile loop which will start and end at
> > the Westchester site.
> >
> > There will be two additional reliability runs - one from Westchester to
the
> > overnight location, and one from the overnight location to the event in
Trenton
> > NJ.
> >
> > Range A range event will be held on Sunday and be
connected
> > with the reliability run from Westchester County
to
> > our overnight stop.
> >
> > Efficiency Efficiency score will be based on recharging
data
> > collected after each reliability and/or range
events.
> > Greenhouse gas emissions are calculated from
effiency
> > data collected above.
> >
> > The final run from Trenton, NJ to Washington, DC will not be scored for
any
> > vehicles. We invite entrants to trailer or drive their vehicles to the
final
> > destination as they see fit.
> >
> > For the first time we are also offering competative events and prizes
for
> > neighborhood electric vehicles, electric bikes, scoooters etc.
> >
> > If you have any further questions, please let me know!
> > Nancy Hazard
> > Tour de Sol Director
> > Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 413 774-6051 x18
> >
>
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting indeed.
Is it bi-directional with the charger(s) sending any data back to the
host computer (like power on, temperature, current, happy, angry, etc.)?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
RS-232 ASCII protocol. The PC is the master and each charger is a slave on
an RS-485 network.
Now you have me VERY interested. Can you list the commands?
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > When you guys make an adapter for your electric motor, do you
> keep the
> > > rubber motor mount or do you eliminate them. Are they there
> for
> > > vibration or torque supression.
> >
> > Many purpose-built electric vehicles do not have rubber motor
> mounts;
> > the motor is hard-mounted directly to the frame. Electric
> motors are so
> > quiet and vibration-free that you can get away with this.
> >
> > However, when you are doing an EV conversion, you may find that
> you get
> > excessive transmission and differential noise. This mainly
> manifests
> > itself as gear whine. For example, my ComutaVan had its motor
> > hard-monted to the frame, along with a Borg-Warner 3-speed
> manual
> > transmisison. The motor itself was nearly silent; what little
> noise it
> > made was drowned out by gear whine, especially in 1st and
> reverse.
>
> I have trouble telling whether the whine noise is commutator
> noise, gear noise, or gear slop, or some of each (probably so).
> My motor will start buzzing (maybe some fan noise) when I get
> good and wrapped up in 1st and 2nd gear (it will make the
> rear-view mirror blur, particularly in 2nd at about 30mph and
> upwards towards 40-45mph). The clutch was balanced and reduced
> (starter teeth cut off) when we did the conversion in 1994, but
> it has occurred to me since that it should have been balanced as
> a unit with the motor. I've had it suggested to me that I could
> some better motor mounts.
If you have a transmission, you can leave it in neutral and spin the
motor to see how much noise it makes. If it's well balanced, you should
find little or no difference between rubber mounts and hard mounts.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
>>> Okay, Lee? Rich? Others? What am I missing, as
>>> these are billed as the greatest thing since sliced
>>> bread? Gels have been around forever as motorcycle
>>> batts. Calcium as a catalyst-- been there, done that.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> The specs at the site don't look any different than
>> any other gel-cell, and the
>> AGMs don't equal Hawkers, so what's so interesting
>> besides the hype?
> That they describe it as lasting 12 years, for starters...
The problem I have is that it reads like a typical marketing press
release; all hype, no specs. For example, how do they know it will last
12 years? Do they have any test data to prove it? Not likely.
The only way we'll know for sure is to get some and independently test
them.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
well, I'm slowly making my way through last week's EV list messages...
Jim, I saw one of the zipcar RAV4 EVs at its charger in a parking
garage near the 'Middle East' venue in boston a couple of months ago.
Caught me by surprise, but forgot to post to the list... Also, was up
at the Central Maine Community College with a friend the other day and
noticed a Solectria Force sitting in the automotive department. not
sure if they use it, registration didn't look current, but then again
it is the middle of winter. Cheers,
Seth
On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 06:02 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
I'm a bit slow posting this, but I was surprised first in July to
discover that there is a Rav4-EV right near here in Boston. It is
owned by Zip Car, which is a station car program. They mostly use
regular ICE vehicles, but had the EV on display at the "Alt Wheels"
festival. The rep said that they check with the customer to make sure
the planned use is under 75 miles, so that when the customer gets lost
or does an extra errand they stay within the 100 mile battery range.
100 mile range... drool...
Then... I discovered that Tufts University had a Rav4-EV. Turns out to
be a *second* electric Zip Car available for renting. And according to
an article I found in the student newspaper, there may be 3 more
around campus (in addition to some NEV's that may be heading to Tufts,
per news wire items that Bruce posted).
So how is it that Toyota claimed Rav4-EV's could not be sold outside
of California since there wouldn't be any service support elsewhere,
yet here they are clear across the country? And how is it that these
five show up after the Rav4-EV's are no longer available (if they ever
were "available")? Grumble.
I may have to go for the $60 trial membership in Zip Car just so I can
drive the thing around for a day (normally $8.50/hr for members).
This also means there are now two private charging stations in rather
public locations... are those inductive or conductive?
The student newspaper article:
http://www.tuftsdaily.com/articleDisplay.jsp?a_id=2245
Pictures I took at the AltWheels festival:
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003
Picture of the Rav4EV at Tufts U (a rather prominent location at the
top of The Hill near West Hall for those who know the place):
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
The Zip Car list of Boston area cars, including the 2 EV's (note the
Tufts car is listed twice as right on a town line):
http://www.zipcar.com/boston/find-cars
(and I have reports of an EV1 in use nearby by a GM employee, but that
may be in 'winter storage' for now...)
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just saw a quick review of the new Toyota Highlander SUV on the NBC
Morning Show, from
the Detroit Auto Show.
The most interesting fact, is that in stead of using a smaller ICEngine
and augmenting it with Electric,
the unit uses the same V6, and the Electric gives it MORE performance
than the standard unit.
PLUS, it still gets better fuel economy....
This leads me to my post last week, where I only got ONE return comment.
(Thanks Joe)
The IDEA was: to take any of the existing and soon to be hybrids,
and merely CHARGE the existing battery packs, thereby replacing THAT
energy from the grid, rather than just buying more GAS. I know an
increased battery pack, and increase electric ONLY drive would even be
better, but this aproach mentioned above might be less expensive and
less invasive, especially for non-technical users.
What do ya all think ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://slough1.home.mindspring.com/seva.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff,
I am a little over a year into a '72 240Z conversion. It has been a
lot more difficult (and expensive) than my truck conversion, however,
the car will be simply stunning when I'm done - I'm doing a full
restoration alongside the conversion. While the 300ZX got 80's-ified,
it is still a cool car and I would say go for it! Everyone does
trucks, no one does Z or ZXs. Pictures of my progress on the Z up at
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm My 2 volts worth
Seth
On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
I have 2 options on conversion, an '88 mitsubishi truck or an 87
300zx. I would like the lists' opinions on the 300zx. It is sporty and
has the engine out already. I am worried about how difficult to fit
the batteries. The truck is in daily use right now because my Grand-am
needs a transmission but when I fix the grand am the truck would be
easier. Both are rear wheel drive and the truck has a racing history
so it has reinforcments, roll cage not comfy. Either way, I want a
tire smoker.
"transmission of road vibration to chassis" hadn't concidered that.
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are they using MagneChargers or Avcon for charging? Are the chargers
public-ish? :-)
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:54 AM
Subject: Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
> well, I'm slowly making my way through last week's EV list messages...
>
> Jim, I saw one of the zipcar RAV4 EVs at its charger in a parking
> garage near the 'Middle East' venue in boston a couple of months ago.
> Caught me by surprise, but forgot to post to the list... Also, was up
> at the Central Maine Community College with a friend the other day and
> noticed a Solectria Force sitting in the automotive department. not
> sure if they use it, registration didn't look current, but then again
> it is the middle of winter. Cheers,
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Tuesday, December 30, 2003, at 06:02 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
>
> > I'm a bit slow posting this, but I was surprised first in July to
> > discover that there is a Rav4-EV right near here in Boston. It is
> > owned by Zip Car, which is a station car program. They mostly use
> > regular ICE vehicles, but had the EV on display at the "Alt Wheels"
> > festival. The rep said that they check with the customer to make sure
> > the planned use is under 75 miles, so that when the customer gets lost
> > or does an extra errand they stay within the 100 mile battery range.
> >
> > 100 mile range... drool...
> >
> > Then... I discovered that Tufts University had a Rav4-EV. Turns out to
> > be a *second* electric Zip Car available for renting. And according to
> > an article I found in the student newspaper, there may be 3 more
> > around campus (in addition to some NEV's that may be heading to Tufts,
> > per news wire items that Bruce posted).
> >
> > So how is it that Toyota claimed Rav4-EV's could not be sold outside
> > of California since there wouldn't be any service support elsewhere,
> > yet here they are clear across the country? And how is it that these
> > five show up after the Rav4-EV's are no longer available (if they ever
> > were "available")? Grumble.
> >
> > I may have to go for the $60 trial membership in Zip Car just so I can
> > drive the thing around for a day (normally $8.50/hr for members).
> >
> > This also means there are now two private charging stations in rather
> > public locations... are those inductive or conductive?
> >
> > The student newspaper article:
> > http://www.tuftsdaily.com/articleDisplay.jsp?a_id=2245
> >
> > Pictures I took at the AltWheels festival:
> > http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003
> >
> > Picture of the Rav4EV at Tufts U (a rather prominent location at the
> > top of The Hill near West Hall for those who know the place):
> > http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
> >
> > The Zip Car list of Boston area cars, including the 2 EV's (note the
> > Tufts car is listed twice as right on a town line):
> > http://www.zipcar.com/boston/find-cars
> >
> >
> > (and I have reports of an EV1 in use nearby by a GM employee, but that
> > may be in 'winter storage' for now...)
> >
> > _________
> > Jim Coate
> > 1992 Chevy S10
> > 1970's Elec-Trak
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> '72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think we are forgetting what the original purpose of motor mounts is.
It's not just vibration and noise isolation. It includes the following (and
can probably serve more functions):
1. Support the weight of the motor/transmission, both while at rest and
while pulling vertical G's for an instant while you traverse that nasty
pothole you didn't see.
2. Minimize vibration and noise transmission (remember ICE's vibrate a lot
more than electric motors).
3. Continue to secure the motor/transmission under high torque conditions.
Both RWD and FWD motor/transmission combinations can rotate a LOT under
torque. This condition is still true with an electric motor, and perhaps
more so (especially for you drag racers).
All these can occur in any combination. While some things are minimized
with an EV (like driveline vibration), the rest still have to be taken into
account. In any car, the entire driveline flexes under loads from potholes,
etc., driveline torque, inertial loads induced from the car manuvering, etc.
In the original driveline, the ICE/transmission was very heavy (lots of
inertia), so the whole thing was allowed to "float" on the motor mounts.
Since the other end of the driveline, at the wheels, was flexible anyway, it
made sense.
In an EV, things CAN be significantly lighter and smoother, reducing (but
not eliminating) the need for extensive flexibility and isolation. But
since most of us drive conversions and keep the transmissions, they usually
wind up being only a LITTLE lighter (speaking in regards to the
motor/transmission combination only). Plus, there is the convenience
factor. That is, the mounts are there anyway, they are very convenient, and
we may as well use them.
The flexibility of motor mounts is mandatory if you intend to apply a lot of
torgue to the wheels (even anti-torgue rods for RWD vehicles incorporate a
bushing in the tie rod end that is isolated with a rubber compound). It is
still desirable for everyday street use EV's. If you don't want to use
them, then the vehicle need to be designed or modified for the method of
attachment you wish to use. I would imagine some modified CV joint designs
with a bit more rotational travel (and some translational travel, too) would
be required.
Food for thought, anyway.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:37 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: motor mounts
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
> > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > When you guys make an adapter for your electric motor, do you
> keep the
> > > rubber motor mount or do you eliminate them. Are they there
> for
> > > vibration or torque supression.
> >
> > Many purpose-built electric vehicles do not have rubber motor
> mounts;
> > the motor is hard-mounted directly to the frame. Electric
> motors are so
> > quiet and vibration-free that you can get away with this.
> >
> > However, when you are doing an EV conversion, you may find that
> you get
> > excessive transmission and differential noise. This mainly
> manifests
> > itself as gear whine. For example, my ComutaVan had its motor
> > hard-monted to the frame, along with a Borg-Warner 3-speed
> manual
> > transmisison. The motor itself was nearly silent; what little
> noise it
> > made was drowned out by gear whine, especially in 1st and
> reverse.
>
> I have trouble telling whether the whine noise is commutator
> noise, gear noise, or gear slop, or some of each (probably so).
> My motor will start buzzing (maybe some fan noise) when I get
> good and wrapped up in 1st and 2nd gear (it will make the
> rear-view mirror blur, particularly in 2nd at about 30mph and
> upwards towards 40-45mph). The clutch was balanced and reduced
> (starter teeth cut off) when we did the conversion in 1994, but
> it has occurred to me since that it should have been balanced as
> a unit with the motor. I've had it suggested to me that I could
> some better motor mounts.
If you have a transmission, you can leave it in neutral and spin the
motor to see how much noise it makes. If it's well balanced, you should
find little or no difference between rubber mounts and hard mounts.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim and All,
I think Seth M. wrote a good post back when he was in the ATdS on the
implications of EVs "needing" chase vehicles and trailers.
My dad and I would have been able to complete the entire 2002 TdS
without a backup vehicle or trailer, had we not missed a night of
charging due to an automobile accident. We towed the truck down from
Maine and left the towing vehicle at the end of the TdS route at a
friend's house and put all our gear in the bed of the electric pickup
truck under a tonno cover. The longest leg of the route that year was
70 something miles, followed by the range event. We completed the
route just fine and had just rolled over 80 miles when we got rear
ended. oh well... I think a simple no frills home made EV that gets
used every day and can complete the tour without help from a large
support crew proves a lot more than any fancy car that needs a giant
truck and trailer to get it through. of course now you absolutely need
a truck and trailer because no homemade EV can go far enough.
what ever happened to the good old days when the TdS came up to
Portland, Maine? That's what got me into EVs in the first place! In
5th grade I went to see the TdS cars in Portland and I got hooked. I
started building a little go kart with my dad, made out of bike parts,
but I knew I wanted to build a full sized car some day and race it in
the TdS so maybe some other little kid would get excited about EVs too.
I am glad I had that opportunity before the TdS became just another
hybrid competition with a few watt-sipping BEVs throw in. Sorry to
sound so cynical, I'm just a little disappointed, is all. The tour
still does great things and I hope to compete in it again with my BEV
in 2005.
Not that I'm likely to enter as I have plenty else to do and already
test my EV on a daily basis. But if I did enter it would be after a
new pack (multiple strings of Orbitals :-) and a clear goal to out
accelerate everything else there. Unless Seth & Ben finish their
respective cars and show up in which case they'd toast me.
when my Z car is done, that acceleration event is MINE!!! :-) I hope
no one at NESEA objects to tire smoke :-) It will be fun to race
against the sun pacer or whatever that tiny little watt sipping solar
thing is they enter ever year. wouldn't have wanted to get rear ended
in that, they'd need a spatula to get you off the pavement.
And yes I well remember "Helios the Heron"... made me want to teach...
what a great car and team. topher is such a great person! cheers all,
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
