EV Digest 3260
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) FLA Battery Break-in
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC-20 remote control (was Wabbit Weport)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) remove me from e-mail list!!!!!!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by "Park, Youngchul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) OT: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: DC Christmas Lights
by "Tom Guillaume" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical
oddities
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) (OT) RE: DC Christmas Lights, clocks
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by "Park, Youngchul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: motor mounts
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: FLA Battery Break-in
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
What is a reasonable break-in procedure for FLA?
I have a new set of Trojan TM24s (flooded 12v modules),
which seem to maintain a temperature between 40 and 50F
here in the winter.
I seem to recall people talking about running a few
gentle but deep cycles until the capacity stops rising.
Is this just for AGM, or would something like this be
recommended for FLA too?
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > it's 18 Deg F here in Kingston Wa.. Lee Hart. come and get your winter weather
> > out of here please!!!
> >
>
> Yeah! Try that same 18 degrees, but with a hefty and steady 35 mph east wind coming
> at
> you from the Columbia Gorge, gusting to 50 mph...that's the scoop here this morning
> in
> Portland! Looking at 1/2 foot of snow minimum on its way, followed by freezing rain
> and
> one of our east county's famous ice storms. I've been telling Victor about Portland's
> c-cold, icy Winter weather for years...he's said bull to this, and for the past 5
> years,
> he's been right, as our Winters have been quite tepid for a long time. It seems the
> Winter
> we all remember, is back, with this latest blast being the 5th snowfall so far.
>
> My race car's 10 kw generator, plus a bevy of inverters and battery banks, stand
> ready to
> supply the Wayland home with back-up power if (or when) the ice storm takes down
> Glisan
> Street's 250 KV feed lines. The same NEMA 1450 - to - twist lock power cords that are
> normally used to charge my EVs, serve double duty to connect the outside backup
> power to
> the house, via a weather-proof housing with a flange mount twist lock, at the rear
> corner
> of the house.
>
> It should be a fun day, working on broken electric lift trucks in c-cold, unheated
> warehouses and open docks!
>
> See Ya.......John Wayland
My 2 kDub is like right at my feet out here in the Manzanita bunker. I
have 2 PFC50s in stock, they can be tested at anytime. As long as the
Load bank is not frozzen solid.
It might be a day for some LONG hard test runs on what ever green box is
on the Operating table.
You all would love it, a string of rope lights from our award winning
Christmas light show.... is tied in knot around the hose Bib, to keep it
from freezing.
I have 1000 watts in the crawl space under the house.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> Interesting indeed.
>
> Is it bi-directional with the charger(s) sending any data back to the
> host computer (like power on, temperature, current, happy, angry, etc.)?
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> RS-232 ASCII protocol. The PC is the master and each charger is a slave on
> >> an RS-485 network.
> >
> >
> > Now you have me VERY interested. Can you list the commands?
> > _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> > \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > =(___)=
> > U
> > Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
> >
> >
>
> --
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
I guess Joe should shed some light on his "Battery tester"
PC controlled charger, and he has Lead acid, Nicad, NiZn, chemistries
already done.
Also the system can change from charge the discharge, and the PC's
command.
So we will have just about the most flexable programmable charger/ load
bank you could imagine. Cuze if we imagine it, it gets buildt.
This thing is test gear, and proof of concept for intellegent charging.
What we learn eventually gets stuffed into a PFC charger of some sort.
I have been trying to figure out if I can make some cashflow with it, or
if it is just toys for Joe's hacker addiction.
The full feature set is changing all the time. Right now it's a BASIC
hack on a PC, with ADAM modules converting 232 from the PC to actual
control signals that run the relay bank and the analog converters that
directly control the charger's power stage.
So.....
How many can I sell, and what can I get for them???
We are just getting to beable to Batch file drive them, and right now we
do single batteries or single voltage strings. With more relays we want
to be able to do multi battery, multi strings up the the voltage limits
of the power stage.
We are using it to recover batteries, and develop charge profiles. Joe
and I have LOTS of semi dead batteries around, and this helps.
I need to turn a few hundred of Joe's Engineering hours into cashflow...
ASK and we might already have it programmed.
As of now I don't have any problems with Joe publishing the ADAM control
circuits and the ACTUAL charger control interface. Of course someday
this might become the PC front end and control port for a PFC charger.
The more "do it your self" this is the more we will publish it. Since we
will be helping Evers and experimenters alike. Once a feature is REALLY
wanted, it gets pullend into the production charger board set.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
14 batteries (910lbs) is about max for a Metro with stiffer springs and
better brakes. The one I sold had 14 US8VGC's but I got better longevity
from the 6Volters. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:00 AM
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
> On 5 Jan 2004 at 5:28, vinnybrain wrote:
>
> > thats why I put airbag spring
> > inserts in last year.
>
> When you suggest 1700 lb of lead in a Geo Metro, you are talking about a
> severe overload. The battery mass alone is about as much as some years
> weighed in gas trim!
>
> There is more to correcting for that than increasing spring rates or
> inserting air springs. You are creating a vehicle which is apt to have
some
> dangerous and/or unpredictable handling qualities. Ask Bob Rice what it
was
> like driving the EFP Renault R10s with about that much lead in them.
>
> Then there's the issue of durability; doubling the design load will be
> murder on the suspension attachment points and wheel bearings. You will
> also get excessive body flex, which will tend to open up welded joints in
> the body structure.
>
> And then there's brakes. Just wait until you stand on the pedal and try
to
> stop 3000+ lb of Metro with those tiny Metro brakes and tires. And just
> what ARE you going to do about tires with higher load capacity?
>
> Besides, I don't know where you'd put all those batteries in a Metro. You
> sure won't be able to keep them all low in the chassis. This will shift
the
> center of mass upward, causing greater body pitch and lean. I can tell
you
> from experience that driving a car like that is like riding a bike while
> wearing a 35 lb backpack - not very pleasant.
>
> I suppose all of this is correctable, if you have the expertise and money.
> You can weld in body reinforcement if you know where it's needed. You can
> find brakes and tires from some larger car and make them fit. You can
make
> drastic floorpan modifications to find places for the batteries. But why?
>
> It seems to me the practical answers are:
>
> 1. Use a moderate to high voltage single string of Optimas or similar AGMs
> to make this a relatively short-range, quick and fun EV.
>
> 2. Use advanced batteries (NiCd, NiZn, NiMH, possibly LiIon) to get range
> without so much mass.
>
> 3. Choose a vehicle that can handle the mass better than the Metro.
>
> Not to frighten you, but if you do build this car with that much battery
> mass, and without the extensive modification it needs, I suggest that when
> you're done with it you junk it. Not only will the weight have stressed
the
> chassis excessively, selling it to someone as a used EV could leave you
open
> to legal liability if he has a collision.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion
> Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
>
> -- Harper's Index, April 2002
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote: [on modular battery charging]:
>> We're working on such a system for the Tango right now. It's an
>> open design, in case anyone wants to duplicate it. But it will cost
>> you upwards of $150 per module.
>>
>> Each battery has a 12v 15amp charger, and microcomputer to monitor
>> and control it, networked together to a central microcomputer...
>> They are powered by a PFC front end from 90-264vac (for charging),
>> or by the DC pack voltage as a whole (for balancing).
Here's the basic block diagram for those who are interested to give you
an idea how it all works (view with fixed width font):
__________ _ _ _ _________capacitor____________
___/___| |__| | | |__| |_______|B+ |
90-264vac | phase- | inductor | PFC | _|_ | PWM motor |
from Avcon |controlled| | boost | ___ | controller |
connector___/___| bridge |___________|converter|___|___|B- |
50a |__________| |_________| |____________|
circuit breaker (like K&W (like Manzanita (like Electric
and GFCI BC-25) Micro PFC-50) Cafe 'Zilla)
AC power comes in thru a circuit breaker and GFCI. A phase-controlled
bridge provides soft-start and inrush limiting to keep the peak current
low when first connected, so there is no "zap" when you plug it in.
Phase control also allows the pack voltage to be lower than the peak of
the AC line (for example, 264vac x 1.4 = 370vdc, which would be 14.78v
per 12v battery).
The inductor is shared between the phase-controlled bridge and boost
converter. It smooths the current, reduces EMI, and improves power
factor when phase control is needed.
The boost converter does the power factor correction, and outputs the
desired voltage for bulk charging.
The capacitor for the boost converter is shared with the controller (PWM
controllers already have low-ESR input capacitors).
OK; this gets power to the controller's B+ input, but not to the
batteries. By the way, the car can't move because we have
series/parallel contactors between the motors and controller output.
They are wired so the motors are completely disconnected from the
controller while charging. Since this is a non-isolated charging system
with brush-type motors, this is necessary so carbon dust, moisture etc.
in the motors does not cause ground faults.
Now add the following circuit to the above. Only 3 batteries and modular
chargers are shown; there are actually 25 (25 x 12v = 300vdc pack).
_________/_______________________
| main | _|_____
| contactor |____| B+ |
| +__|__ |+ |
| 12v___ |network|____
| - |____|- | |
| | |____B-_| |
| | _|___|_ |
| ____________ |____| B+ | |
|___|B+ | +__|__ |+ | |
_|_ | PWM motor | 12v___ |network|____|
___ | controller | - |____|- | |
|___|B- | | |____B-_| |
| |____________| | _|___|_ |
| |____| B+ | |
| +__|__ |+ | |
| 12v___ |network|____|___to main
| - |____|- | computer
| | |____B-_|
___|______________________|__________|
Bulk charging
-------------
There is (of course) a main contactor between the batteries and the
controller's B+ input. Closing the main contactor enables high-power
'bulk' charging. The phase-controlled bridge and PFC stage are used to
control the charging current. Typically, you can charge at 40 amps at
240vac, which is 25 amps at 350vdc (14v per 12v battery).
Bulk charging continues until the first battery reaches 14.8v. Then the
main contactor is opened, disconnecting the pack from controller B+.
The modular chargers (one per battery) are also powered by the B+ input
of the controller. Thus they are AC powered when AC is available, or DC
powered from the pack when the main contactor is closed. These modular
chargers are responsible for the 'finish' and 'equalize' portions of a
charge cycle.
For AC charging, the modular chargers basically follow the charging
algorithm recommended by the battery manufacturer. For Optimas for
example, we bulk charge at whatever the AC line can supply until 14.8v,
then constant voltage until the current falls to 2 amps (or stops
falling), then 30 minutes at 2 amps with a 16v upper limit (or until the
voltage stops rising). It is also temperature compensated, and there are
safety timers.
Jim Coate wrote:
> I assume that in addition to getting the most from the batteries,
> this is being used to make driving user friendly for Joe Consumer.
> As in get in and drive, with no fussing over batteries.
Yes, that's the idea. The system should be smart enough to take care of
everything automatically. Having individual battery monitors/chargers
means we can detect loose terminals, or hot batteries, or failing cells
*before* they cause a failure; and then do something to *prevent*
failures. It needs to know when to equalize. When to limit charge or
discharge current to prevent damage. It needs to identify failing
batteries, so they can be replaced *before* stranding you somewhere.
I think one big advantage of individual chargers is that batteries can
be charged *while* you are driving. Batteries are not all alike; there
are minor differences between them when new, and these differences get
larger as they age. Normally, your EV's range and pack life is limited
by the 'weakest link', i.e. the battery with the lowest capacity. So,
when one battery falls to (say) 80% of its original capacity, your range
is limited to 80%. If that isn't enough to make your daily commute, the
pack is 'bad' and must be replaced.
But if you can charge that weak battery with power from the other good
batteries, you can prop it up to have the same capacity as the rest.
Your range is limited by the *average* capacity of the batteries in the
pack; not the weakest battery. In effect, this gives you more range, and
extends pack life, lowering cost per mile.
In the Tango, the individual chargers monitor pack voltage as a whole
while driving. If one of the 25 batteries is less than 1/25th of the
total pack voltage (plus a fudge factor), then that battery gets charged
as you drive. The 15 amp charger can put in 15 ah per hour of driving;
that is enough to 'prop up' a battery that is down to 40ah when the rest
average 55ah. In my own EV, I had one battery down to 16ah when the rest
were 40ah; this charge-while-drive system propped it up so I had normal
range even with a seriously bad battery.
> And it got me thinking... in a larger vehicle with multiple battery
> strings, could have great redundancy built in.
That's another design goal of this system. There are few single-point
failures. If the phase-control stage fails, the PFC stage can control
charging, and vice versa. If both lose control, the modular chargers can
do the entire charge (though at a lower rate). If modular charger fails,
the phase-control and PFC stages can do the entire job; you lose only
monitoring or balancing for that one battery.
Another point is that it is modular. One could start with nothing but a
'bad boy' bridge-rectifier and inductor charger. Add phase control; then
you'd have a system like the K&W chargers. Add a PFC stage, like the
Manzanita PFC-xx chargers. Add the modular chargers, perhaps one at a
time as needed to prop up the weakest batteries.
Yes, the total system is very complex and expensive. But, the Tango is
still in development. We wanted a system that is extremely flexible, and
can a) monitor what is going on, and b) do something about it (rather
than rely on the driver). As we learn what works and what doesn't,
future systems can leave out parts that turn out not to be neceesary.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:13:48 -0000
From: "M.S. Dickerson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For the record - my accumulated gas costs of my Prius is currently
$0.034 per mile. It will get slightly more costly by spring due to
lower MPG but probably not be above $0.040 by then. That is after
tracking it for 25000 miles. I did not record my first year.
My kwh costs are @$.11- what is the cost per KWH of your
electricity? (also most of our electricity in my area is coal and
oil). If I remember correctly the Prius (classic), carries about
1.6kw potential? Please correct me if wrong. On the amount of
electricity it can go about 2-3 miles in about 5 minutes(or on the
part of that energy we can access). So with very rough calculations
I use 533 kw per mile and at @$0.11 per kwh I get about (53.300kwh
expended for 1 hour at that rate) $5.86 per hour on pure
electricity? That sounds like it costs me more to operate a plug in
than a hybrid... Sorry for the very very crude calculations, but
the point is simply - electricity is not cheap nor is it that clean
(depending where you live).
steve d
02 super white 56000 miles
I'll go with the EPA's economy site for figures. You are wrong. It is
less. EPA figures support this. You started with the wrong premise. Not
potential but actual use. Lawrence Rhodes......Where I am energy is made
with hydro at night when I charge. I also have solar......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> it's 18 Deg F here in Kingston Wa.. Lee Hart. come and get your
>> winter weather out of here, please!!!
John Wayland wrote:
> Yeah! Try that same 18 degrees, but with a hefty and steady 35 mph
> east wind coming at you from the Columbia Gorge, gusting to 50 mph
> here this morning in Portland!
Hah! You sissies! :-)
It was -12 deg.F here this morning, and the 'high' today is -5 deg.F.
And With the wind, the wind chill is -40 deg.F. You aren't getting your
balmy winter weather from us! :-)
Yet, I just gave some friends a demo ride in my EV last night (one is an
engineer at Chrysler). He was of course sure that EV's couldn't work at
such cold temperatures. :-)
Looking at 1/2 foot of snow minimum on its way, followed by freezing
rain and
> one of our east county's famous ice storms. I've been telling Victor about Portland's
> c-cold, icy Winter weather for years...he's said bull to this, and for the past 5
> years,
> he's been right, as our Winters have been quite tepid for a long time. It seems the
> Winter
> we all remember, is back, with this latest blast being the 5th snowfall so far.
>
> My race car's 10 kw generator, plus a bevy of inverters and battery banks, stand
> ready to
> supply the Wayland home with back-up power if (or when) the ice storm takes down
> Glisan
> Street's 250 KV feed lines. The same NEMA 1450 - to - twist lock power cords that are
> normally used to charge my EVs, serve double duty to connect the outside backup
> power to
> the house, via a weather-proof housing with a flange mount twist lock, at the rear
> corner
> of the house.
>
> It should be a fun day, working on broken electric lift trucks in c-cold, unheated
> warehouses and open docks!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth Murray wrote:
> I think a simple no frills home made EV that gets
> used every day and can complete the tour without help from a large
> support crew proves a lot more than any fancy car that needs a giant
> truck and trailer to get it through.
I've never participated in the Tour de Sol, but have been an avid reader
of Mike Bianchi's coverage of it. However, I've never seen anything more
than a few seconds' coverage or 1-paragraph item in the mainstream TV,
radio, or newspapers.
Even the factory teams don't seem to get any coverage that they
themselves didn't set up and pay for. Do the small teams get any media
coverage at all?
> Of course now you absolutely need a truck and trailer because no
> homemade EV can go far enough.
What exactly did they do that makes this a requirement? Is charging at
the halfway point banned? How about battery swapping? Or solar cars? Or
plain old 'lead sleds' like the Read Beastie?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Someone Who Knows will need to look at the pictures listed below and
tell me... without unplugging the car, my impression was it might be an
inductive paddle, but unlike the California crowd I have no exposure to
the different choices to know what the brands look like.
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003/image_html/P03.html
Both chargers are "private"... presumably owned by ZipCar? And the
associated parking spaces are reserved for only ZipCar use.
But that said, one is in a public parking garage (thanks Seth!), and the
other is on a college campus next to a handicap space. So if desperate
and have high charisma, perhaps could find a way to park close enough
for the cord to reach and sweet talk any cops that came along...? Or
just use the 'underground' charging network of friendly EVers
http://www.neeaa.org/charging.htm#ma with regular conductive outlets.
Christopher Zach wrote:
Are they using MagneChargers or Avcon for charging? Are the chargers
public-ish? :-)
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
well, I'm slowly making my way through last week's EV list messages...
Jim, I saw one of the zipcar RAV4 EVs at its charger in a parking
garage near the 'Middle East' venue in boston a couple of months ago.
Caught me by surprise, but forgot to post to the list... Also, was up
at the Central Maine Community College with a friend the other day and
noticed a Solectria Force sitting in the automotive department. not
sure if they use it, registration didn't look current, but then again
it is the middle of winter. Cheers,
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is an inductive charger made by Toyota.
Young
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 12:45 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
Someone Who Knows will need to look at the pictures listed below and
tell me... without unplugging the car, my impression was it might be an
inductive paddle, but unlike the California crowd I have no exposure to
the different choices to know what the brands look like.
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003/image_html/P03.html
Both chargers are "private"... presumably owned by ZipCar? And the
associated parking spaces are reserved for only ZipCar use.
But that said, one is in a public parking garage (thanks Seth!), and the
other is on a college campus next to a handicap space. So if desperate
and have high charisma, perhaps could find a way to park close enough
for the cord to reach and sweet talk any cops that came along...? Or
just use the 'underground' charging network of friendly EVers
http://www.neeaa.org/charging.htm#ma with regular conductive outlets.
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Are they using MagneChargers or Avcon for charging? Are the chargers
> public-ish? :-)
>
> Chris
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>well, I'm slowly making my way through last week's EV list messages...
>>
>>Jim, I saw one of the zipcar RAV4 EVs at its charger in a parking
>>garage near the 'Middle East' venue in boston a couple of months ago.
>>Caught me by surprise, but forgot to post to the list... Also, was up
>>at the Central Maine Community College with a friend the other day and
>>noticed a Solectria Force sitting in the automotive department. not
>>sure if they use it, registration didn't look current, but then again
>>it is the middle of winter. Cheers,
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
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Folks,
Okay, I have a few questions that have been bugging me for a while, so I
wanted to ask the list. These are only very peripherally related to
EVs, so hit delete now if you're looking for something relevant. I'll
try to mention EVs at least once each paragraph.
1. To open a new chapter in the AC/DC wars, I wanted to ask about
Christmas lights. Each year, my neighborhood has a small-scale
unofficial competetion for Christmas light displays, and I usually deck
the house with lights: icicles, colored lights, etc. Last year, because
of lots of rain and generally wet weather, my GFCI kept tripping. Since
this got old very quickly, I decided isolation was in order. I used my
Fair Radio charger (originally purchased to charge my EV) to run my
Christmas lights. The only DC-powered lights on the block! The neat
side effect to this was that I could change the voltage on the charger
and make my lights brighter or dimmer. This year (as last year) I
turned the voltage below 110V (closer to 100V) to reduce wear-and-tear
on the lights. Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
and one heavy-duty extension cord failed shorted at the female end and
needed to be replaced. Are there any obvious reasons for these, or was
it just coincidence/bad luck? Any other pros/cons to DC Christmas
lights? (I already discovered that the flashing/morphing rope-light
controllers don't run on DC, so all I'm running is standard mini-bulbs
in strings and icicles.)
2. When I had my home PV system installed a few years ago (so I could
claim my EVs were running on solar-supplied power), I had a battery
backup system installed. The way it is wired (I think I've got this
right), all power to the backed-up circuits comes from the inverter all
the time, and the inverter is supplied by the grid or by the battery
bank if the grid goes down. That means that some circuits in my house
(including my bedroom) see AC only from the inverter and not directly
from the grid. I don't have an oscilloscope, so don't know what the
output looks like, but assume it's relatively clean. It's a
Xantrex/Trace inverter. The problem is that my digital clocks gain
time. One clock started gaining time at a rate of a few minutes a week,
then a few minutes a day, and finally was counting 20-second "minutes".
I threw that one away. Now its replacement is starting to gain time, a
few minutes a week. Is this because of a perhaps less-than-perfect sine
wave on my electrical circuit, or is this a common failure mode for
digital clocks?
3. The new 8' fluorescent shop lights in my garage (where I park my
electric MGA and my Zappy scooter) have a loud 60Hz hum. It's
especially noticeable when they're cold. When they warm up, either they
get softer or I get accustomed to the noise, as I don't seem to notice
it as much. While the "mad scientist lab" sound effects are kind of
cool, they can be annoying at times, too, so I'd rather be without them.
Is there anything that can be done to make them quieter? I'm guessing
it's the ballast and not the bulbs that is making the noise. Are there
options other than replacing the fixtures?
4. Finally, an anecdote that I forgot to tell a few years back when it
happened. I was having Thanksgiving dinner with my extended family.
One of them came up to me (knowing I have a couple of EVs) and said,
"Hey, I saw one of those new EVs on the road the other day. You know,
the Aztek?" (For those of you who may not know, the Aztek was
a...um...different looking car that came out a few years back. It can
be seen here:
http://www.autobuyguide.com/auto_reviews/2001/2001_Pontiac_Aztek.html).
I informed him that it wasn't electric, and after further discussions
realized that his basic assumption was "goofy-looking car --> must be
electric". Sigh.
Dean Grannes
'79 Rabbit EV (Blue Phantom)
'59 MGA EV (Fire Chief)
Zappy scooter
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> Someone Who Knows will need to look at the pictures listed below and
> tell me... without unplugging the car, my impression was it might be an
> inductive paddle, but unlike the California crowd I have no exposure to
> the different choices to know what the brands look like.
>
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003/image_html/P03.html
Interestingly the charger at the Green St garage appears to be different.
Pictures taken by a friend of mine are here:
http://www-images.thok.org/me/toys/e-rav4/index.html
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>
> 4. Finally, an anecdote that I forgot to tell a few years back when it
> happened. I was having Thanksgiving dinner with my extended family.
> One of them came up to me (knowing I have a couple of EVs) and said,
> "Hey, I saw one of those new EVs on the road the other day. You know,
> the Aztek?" (For those of you who may not know, the Aztek was
> a...um...different looking car that came out a few years back. It can
> be seen here:
> http://www.autobuyguide.com/auto_reviews/2001/2001_Pontiac_Aztek.html).
> I informed him that it wasn't electric, and after further discussions
> realized that his basic assumption was "goofy-looking car --> must be
> electric". Sigh.
>
> Dean Grannes
> '79 Rabbit EV (Blue Phantom)
> '59 MGA EV (Fire Chief)
> Zappy scooter
>
>
Dean,
I believe one of the Aztec special features were four AC 110 Outlets. That
is, you can plug into the Aztek to run, say, your hairdryer. I think the
outlets are powered by a small 12 volt DC to 110 AC inverter.
It is a vehicle that supplies electricity, hence an electric vehicle. Or
according to our friends in Detroit, at least a Hybrid <g>.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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>Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
>and one heavy-duty extension cord failed shorted at the female end and
>needed to be replaced. Are there any obvious reasons for these, or was
>it just coincidence/bad luck?
DC applied to filaments does indeed shorten filament life. How much so
depends on the filament thickness. Low power lamps used on small Christmas
lights have very thin filaments, and thin filaments are affected most by
this phenomenon. The problem has to do with the tungsten that is evaporated
from the filaments tend to migrate towards one end of the filament due to
the electric field generated by the DC applied to the filament. For some
reason that I don't fully understand, the tungsten condenses back onto the
filament in uniform places. The net result is that some areas get fatter
and some get thinner. The thin places cause the failure when they get to
zero thickness.
There is some information on the web regarding this. Scroll down to the
information regarding filament notching on the following link.
http://www.htl.co.jp/pro/kogata/einfo.html
Tom Guillaume
Chardon, OH
Snow capital of Ohio
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Dean Grannes asked (in part):
> One clock started gaining time at a rate of a few minutes a week,
> then a few minutes a day, and finally was counting 20-second
> "minutes". I threw that one away. Now its replacement is starting
> to gain time, a few minutes a week. Is this because of a perhaps
> less-than-perfect sine wave on my electrical circuit, or is this
> a common failure mode for digital clocks?
The time error is fairly easy - your inverter does not make EXACTLY 60 Hz.
A lot of digital clock use power line frequency as a clock reference. It's
easy to do it that way and the power companies have EXTREMELY accurate long
term frequency stability. To give you an idea how good the long term
frequency stability is, in our Energy Control Center, there is a time error
display that compares time based on power line frequency to time based on
WWV. Although it moves around quite a bit, our dispatchers get really
excited if the error exceedes a few hundred milli-seconds. And BTW, we are
the power line timekeeper for the Western States Stability Conference which
contains essentially everything west of the Rockies in the US, southwestern
Canada and a little bit of northwestern Mexico.
As to why it would change, I don't have a good answer.
-----------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile Radio Operations
Southern California Edison Co.
Ofc: 626-302-8515 - PAX 28-515
FAX: 626-302-7501 - PAX 27-501
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Tom,
Thanks for the link to the page on filament notching. I always thought
that incandescent bulbs don't care between AC and DC, but apparently
that's not the case. I should have thought about the EM
phenomenon--it's an issue on silicon as well.
Jim,
Your explanation of the time shift makes sense, though you're right in
that it doesn't make sense why the clocks' rate would change so
dramatically over time. Maybe something else is going on.
All,
I was informed off-list that another issue with the Christmas lights is
that there is an AC component on top of the DC component of the output
of the Fair Radio charger that is not displayed on the voltmeter.
Taking the AC component into account, the lights are likely seeing
considerably higher voltages, further reducing their life.
Thanks for the replies!
Dean
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This connector is Yazaki (not Avcon). Conductive charger.
Young
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Derrick J Brashear
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
> Someone Who Knows will need to look at the pictures listed below and
> tell me... without unplugging the car, my impression was it might be an
> inductive paddle, but unlike the California crowd I have no exposure to
> the different choices to know what the brands look like.
>
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003/image_html/P03.html
Interestingly the charger at the Green St garage appears to be different.
Pictures taken by a friend of mine are here:
http://www-images.thok.org/me/toys/e-rav4/index.html
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Lawrence wrote: "I use 533 kw per mile..."
I think you meant to say: "I use 533 WATTS per mile..." a factor of 1000.
Hope this helps.
Peter
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From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 14:27 PM
Subject: Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
>
> Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:13:48 -0000
> From: "M.S. Dickerson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> For the record - my accumulated gas costs of my Prius is currently
> $0.034 per mile. It will get slightly more costly by spring due to
> lower MPG but probably not be above $0.040 by then. That is after
> tracking it for 25000 miles. I did not record my first year.
>
> My kwh costs are @$.11- what is the cost per KWH of your
> electricity? (also most of our electricity in my area is coal and
> oil). If I remember correctly the Prius (classic), carries about
> 1.6kw potential? Please correct me if wrong. On the amount of
> electricity it can go about 2-3 miles in about 5 minutes(or on the
> part of that energy we can access). So with very rough calculations
> I use 533 kw per mile and at @$0.11 per kwh I get about (53.300kwh
> expended for 1 hour at that rate) $5.86 per hour on pure
> electricity? That sounds like it costs me more to operate a plug in
> than a hybrid... Sorry for the very very crude calculations, but
> the point is simply - electricity is not cheap nor is it that clean
> (depending where you live).
>
> steve d
> 02 super white 56000 miles
>
>
> I'll go with the EPA's economy site for figures. You are wrong. It is
> less. EPA figures support this. You started with the wrong premise. Not
> potential but actual use. Lawrence Rhodes......Where I am energy is made
> with hydro at night when I charge. I also have solar......
>
>
>
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Lee Hart wrote:
> Chuck Hursch wrote:
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> > > Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > > > When you guys make an adapter for your electric motor, do
you
> > keep the
> > > > rubber motor mount or do you eliminate them. Are they
there
> > for
> > > > vibration or torque supression.
> > >
> > > Many purpose-built electric vehicles do not have rubber
motor
> > mounts;
> > > the motor is hard-mounted directly to the frame. Electric
> > motors are so
> > > quiet and vibration-free that you can get away with this.
> > >
> > > However, when you are doing an EV conversion, you may find
that
> > you get
> > > excessive transmission and differential noise. This mainly
> > manifests
> > > itself as gear whine. For example, my ComutaVan had its
motor
> > > hard-monted to the frame, along with a Borg-Warner 3-speed
> > manual
> > > transmisison. The motor itself was nearly silent; what
little
> > noise it
> > > made was drowned out by gear whine, especially in 1st and
> > reverse.
> >
> > I have trouble telling whether the whine noise is commutator
> > noise, gear noise, or gear slop, or some of each (probably
so).
> > My motor will start buzzing (maybe some fan noise) when I get
> > good and wrapped up in 1st and 2nd gear (it will make the
> > rear-view mirror blur, particularly in 2nd at about 30mph and
> > upwards towards 40-45mph). The clutch was balanced and
reduced
> > (starter teeth cut off) when we did the conversion in 1994,
but
> > it has occurred to me since that it should have been balanced
as
> > a unit with the motor. I've had it suggested to me that I
could
> > some better motor mounts.
>
> If you have a transmission, you can leave it in neutral and
spin the
> motor to see how much noise it makes. If it's well balanced,
you should
> find little or no difference between rubber mounts and hard
mounts.
I've done just that (spinning up the motor in neutral many a
time, like when I had the surging problem a month or two ago).
Picking up from 0 rpm, the noisiest thing is the controller
(1231C) squeal, which goes away shortly. Then from there it's
hard to describe - just things spinning up. There's a little
vibration, but not bad. But I don't get nearly as much whine as
when the car is under load; it could be motor whine as in more
amps, or now the gear slop is tightened up, so the gears sound
differently under load. I don't remember too well how much
rubber is in those mounts. We re-used the old ICE mounts for the
three tranny mounts, and the Voltsrabbit mount for the
bellhousing end of the motor that attaches over at the passenger
end of things. It was a diesel engine in the previous
incarnation, so maybe the stock mounts are more rubbery than if
it had been a gas engine'd Rabbit. It's probably a matter of
researching mounts and seeing what the options are/were.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> What is a reasonable break-in procedure for FLA?
> I have a new set of Trojan TM24s (flooded 12v modules),
> which seem to maintain a temperature between 40 and 50F
> here in the winter.
>
> I seem to recall people talking about running a few
> gentle but deep cycles until the capacity stops rising.
> Is this just for AGM, or would something like this be
> recommended for FLA too?
I believe it is for FLA too. The way I did it with the current
pack is we had the whole battery pack on a bench, and used a bank
of resistors in a water bath to slowly increase the depth of
discharge @ 75A. Just slowly cycled them in over ten cycles or
so. But in this case, we also had the batteries a good six or
seven months before they got dropped in the car and roll-out
occurred. So we had also been cycling them for all those
months... The batteries were Trojan T125s 6V.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
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