EV Digest 3261
Topics covered in this issue include:
1)
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) GEM charger question
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: GEM charger question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) unsubscribe EV & signoff EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: GEM charger question
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Distributed systems (was Re: Possible LiOH charging thoughts)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: which car to convert, was motor mounts
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: motor mounts
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) GEMs on SF hills?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by "Alan Shedd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: DC Christmas Lights, road rage.
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: energy units
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Battery heater testing
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Subject: How to Unsubscribe From the EVDL
To un-subscribe:
Send the following email message:
TO: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
SUBJECT: thanks
MESSAGE: signoff ev
(Notice this is a different email address than the one you post messages to.)
Complete instructions for the EV List can be found at:
http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
Note: I am not an administrator, just some one who has been on the list
for a long time.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jan 2004 at 17:43, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> Lawrence wrote: "I use 533 kw per mile..."
>
> I think you meant to say: "I use 533 WATTS per mile..." a factor of 1000.
Wrong again. He meant to say 533 Watt-HOURS per mile.
Come on guys, get the units right. What is the problem here? Is it just
careless typing, or is it wooly thinking?
I mean no offense, but we're all supposed to be well-informed about EVs.
The vehicle users who comprise the general public, including the technically
literate, expect us to know what we're talking about. How the heck can we
make a good impression on them if we use incorrect (or worse, misleading)
terminology?
BTW, 533 Wh/mi is more reasonable that 533 kWh/mi, but it still sounds
pretty high to me. It's about 4 times what my Force uses.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents that runs fine
but refuses to charge. (Don't ask me why the dealer doesn't fix it - I'm
just glad I got them to finally deliver it - a multimonth horror story)
I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the charger, I get
a blinking red light and beep, which according to an online manual (which I
can't seem to find again), this indicates that the charger believes that
the batteries are too low to charge. This was confirmed by the first-line
GEM service phone answerer (technician would probably be too
generous). The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter indicates ~80%
charge remaining, and when I probe the individual batteries, they are
sitting at ~12.3 unloaded. One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
string and charged it individually. That isn't fully discharged is it?
I was on hold for an hour waiting to speak to a real technician (maybe he
went home for the day and didn't tell the first tier guy???) I want to
know what the minimum voltage the charger expects to see is before it will
start charging, so I can take the batteries out of the picture.
Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else could it be besides a
bum charger?
Thanks,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Weaver wrote:
> I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents
> that runs fine but refuses to charge
> I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the
> charger, I get a blinking red light and beep, which
> according to an online manual (which I can't seem to find
> again), this indicates that the charger believes that
> the batteries are too low to charge.
> The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter
> indicates ~80% charge remaining, and when I probe the
> individual batteries, they are sitting at ~12.3 unloaded.
> One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
> string and charged it individually. That isn't fully
> discharged is it?
It is low, but not dead. Trojan calls 12.1V about 50% and 12.3V about
65% charge remaining.
> Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else
> could it be besides a bum charger?
I don't know offhand the minimum start voltage for the NG1, but it is
certainly lower than 2.0Vpc, so your pack is high enough that the
charger should start... *IF* it is seeing the pack voltage.
You checked the individual battery voltages, but did you check the
voltage at the output connections of the charger to see what it sees as
the total pack voltage? Your individual measurements suggest it should
see about 73.6V, and if it does, then it should happily charge.
However, there could be a wire disconnected or fuse blown that results
in the vehicle driving OK, but the charger not seeing the pack voltage
and therefore (correctly) refusing to charge.
Good luck,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom Guillaume wrote:
> >Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
"Many" meaning 'significantly more than when they were run off AC', or
'about as many as when run off AC'?
> DC applied to filaments does indeed shorten filament life.
There is a graph on the page you referred to that suggests that the
minimum life for a 'normal' filament on DC is still 1000hrs (@30mA) to
3000hrs (@100mA), so it seems unlikely that large numbers of bulbs would
fail from this cause in the few-to-several weeks of use that Christmas
lights typically see annually (at least not in a single season).
Counterintuitively, this graph suggests that when running bulbs on DC it
may *increase* their life to run them at slightly higher current instead
of lower current, so perhaps running a slightly higher DC voltage could
be a good thing.
> The problem has to do with the tungsten that is
> evaporated from the filaments tend to migrate towards one end
> of the filament due to the electric field generated by the DC
> applied to the filament.
Assuming that the effect does not shorten the bulb life such that they
die in less than one season's worth of use, perhaps a 'solution' is to
connect the DC in opposite polarity every other season so that the
tungsten is forced to migrate in the opposite direction every other
season? (Think of it as VERY low frequency AC ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents that runs fine
> but refuses to charge. (Don't ask me why the dealer doesn't fix it - I'm
> just glad I got them to finally deliver it - a multimonth horror story)
>
> I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the charger, I get
> a blinking red light and beep, which according to an online manual (which I
> can't seem to find again), this indicates that the charger believes that
> the batteries are too low to charge. This was confirmed by the first-line
> GEM service phone answerer (technician would probably be too
> generous). The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter indicates ~80%
> charge remaining, and when I probe the individual batteries, they are
> sitting at ~12.3 unloaded. One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
> string and charged it individually. That isn't fully discharged is it?
>
> I was on hold for an hour waiting to speak to a real technician (maybe he
> went home for the day and didn't tell the first tier guy???) I want to
> know what the minimum voltage the charger expects to see is before it will
> start charging, so I can take the batteries out of the picture.
>
> Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else could it be besides a
> bum charger?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
Geez!!! I really need to build a NEV class charger.
How many are out there that are Dead just because somebody cheaped out
and saved a couple of bucks.
The problem is I need about $500 more than the market would pay.
I am really looking at this market.
What is a good charger worth for the NEV world?
What would you folks pay??
I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
Iso of course... Sigh!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
BTW, 533 Wh/mi is more reasonable that 533 kWh/mi, but it still sounds
pretty high to me. It's about 4 times what my Force uses.
Four times? My Prizm pulls about 250-300wh/mi, and it's fairly efficient
(has the regen, Invicta tires, and the same profile as a Force). What
could make your force get 125 wh/mi? That's below an EV1.
Chris
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you ment to say 0.533 kWh/mile, but I think it's closer
to 0.4 kWh/mile. Since the Prius pack holds closer to 1 kWh of
useable power, and goes 2 miles (.5kWh/m) to 4 miles (.25kWh/m).
I have even heard of someone who can go 5 miles (.2kWh/m).
So, at $0.11/kWh we're looking at $0.055/mile down to $0.022/mile,
depending on how far you think you can go on 1 kWh, most EV's go
3 or more miles, some go 8 miles, and very few go less than 2 miles.
I can't wait for the day when it is perfectly reasonable to purchase
a "fuel collection" system with your car. Using solar and wind power
you could size the fueling station to how far you drive each day.
If you go 20 miles, you need 5kWh/day. If you drive 40 miles you
would get a 10kWh/day system. Then you would pay $0.00/mile, produce
zero emissions, use no non-renewable fuels, and have it for life.
As far as grid power goes, you may have the option to simply purchase
clean electricity. Otherwise dirty coal grid power is a problem of
it's own which can and should be solved in and of itself.
As far as cost per mile with gas, I average 50mpg in my Insight,
at $2/gal that comes out to $0.04/mile. When I slow down and get
70mpg that's $0.029/mile. But if gas in the US cost what the rest
of the world has to pay, $4/gal then I'd average $0.08/mile and
would only be able to sip $0.058/mile at 70mpg.
Unfortunently I'm not likely to get my own personal gassoline production
system, so making my own fuel is not even an option. By the way...
A bunch of oil was rescently dumped into the Puget Sound, not good.
L8r
Ryan
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 15:13:48 -0000
From: "M.S. Dickerson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
For the record - my accumulated gas costs of my Prius is currently
$0.034 per mile. It will get slightly more costly by spring due to
lower MPG but probably not be above $0.040 by then. That is after
tracking it for 25000 miles. I did not record my first year.
My kwh costs are @$.11- what is the cost per KWH of your
electricity? (also most of our electricity in my area is coal and
oil). If I remember correctly the Prius (classic), carries about
1.6kw potential? Please correct me if wrong. On the amount of
electricity it can go about 2-3 miles in about 5 minutes(or on the
part of that energy we can access). So with very rough calculations
I use 533 kw per mile and at @$0.11 per kwh I get about (53.300kwh
expended for 1 hour at that rate) $5.86 per hour on pure
electricity? That sounds like it costs me more to operate a plug in
than a hybrid... Sorry for the very very crude calculations, but
the point is simply - electricity is not cheap nor is it that clean
(depending where you live).
steve d
02 super white 56000 miles
I'll go with the EPA's economy site for figures. You are wrong. It is
less. EPA figures support this. You started with the wrong premise. Not
potential but actual use. Lawrence Rhodes......Where I am energy is made
with hydro at night when I charge. I also have solar......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. The Tufts one looks like a small-paddle Magnecharger. There was an
adapter to allow LPI to use those.
Interesting.
Chris
Jim Coate wrote:
Someone Who Knows will need to look at the pictures listed below and
tell me... without unplugging the car, my impression was it might be an
inductive paddle, but unlike the California crowd I have no exposure to
the different choices to know what the brands look like.
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/AltWheels2003/image_html/P03.html
Both chargers are "private"... presumably owned by ZipCar? And the
associated parking spaces are reserved for only ZipCar use.
But that said, one is in a public parking garage (thanks Seth!), and the
other is on a college campus next to a handicap space. So if desperate
and have high charisma, perhaps could find a way to park close enough
for the cord to reach and sweet talk any cops that came along...? Or
just use the 'underground' charging network of friendly EVers
http://www.neeaa.org/charging.htm#ma with regular conductive outlets.
Christopher Zach wrote:
Are they using MagneChargers or Avcon for charging? Are the chargers
public-ish? :-)
Chris
----- Original Message ----- From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
well, I'm slowly making my way through last week's EV list messages...
Jim, I saw one of the zipcar RAV4 EVs at its charger in a parking
garage near the 'Middle East' venue in boston a couple of months ago.
Caught me by surprise, but forgot to post to the list... Also, was up
at the Central Maine Community College with a friend the other day and
noticed a Solectria Force sitting in the automotive department. not
sure if they use it, registration didn't look current, but then again
it is the middle of winter. Cheers,
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Warning, opinions without data to follow!!
1.) Christmas lights and many residential extension cords are made as
cheaply as possible. Reliability and long life are not a major design goal.
I don't think using DC created any additional wear or failure modes.
2.) I think you're on the right track with the not so perfect sine wave. I
can't think of any reason the accuracy would change over time though.
3.) 60 Hz hum is generally caused by loose laminations in a transformer or
ballast. Possibly as the fixtrure heats up, the laminations expand and have
less room to vibrate. Sidebar: Many years ago a friend of mine bluffed his
way through high school band as having "perfect pitch" by tuning his sax to
the hum of the lights in the band room!
4.) Sad but true.
End Opinions
David, EV wannabe and full of opinions (some based on facts and data, but
not all)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 3:04 PM
Subject: OT: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
> Folks,
>
> Okay, I have a few questions that have been bugging me for a while, so I
> wanted to ask the list. These are only very peripherally related to
> EVs, so hit delete now if you're looking for something relevant. I'll
> try to mention EVs at least once each paragraph.
>
> 1. To open a new chapter in the AC/DC wars, I wanted to ask about
> Christmas lights. Each year, my neighborhood has a small-scale
> unofficial competetion for Christmas light displays, and I usually deck
> the house with lights: icicles, colored lights, etc. Last year, because
> of lots of rain and generally wet weather, my GFCI kept tripping. Since
> this got old very quickly, I decided isolation was in order. I used my
> Fair Radio charger (originally purchased to charge my EV) to run my
> Christmas lights. The only DC-powered lights on the block! The neat
> side effect to this was that I could change the voltage on the charger
> and make my lights brighter or dimmer. This year (as last year) I
> turned the voltage below 110V (closer to 100V) to reduce wear-and-tear
> on the lights. Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
> and one heavy-duty extension cord failed shorted at the female end and
> needed to be replaced. Are there any obvious reasons for these, or was
> it just coincidence/bad luck? Any other pros/cons to DC Christmas
> lights? (I already discovered that the flashing/morphing rope-light
> controllers don't run on DC, so all I'm running is standard mini-bulbs
> in strings and icicles.)
>
> 2. When I had my home PV system installed a few years ago (so I could
> claim my EVs were running on solar-supplied power), I had a battery
> backup system installed. The way it is wired (I think I've got this
> right), all power to the backed-up circuits comes from the inverter all
> the time, and the inverter is supplied by the grid or by the battery
> bank if the grid goes down. That means that some circuits in my house
> (including my bedroom) see AC only from the inverter and not directly
> from the grid. I don't have an oscilloscope, so don't know what the
> output looks like, but assume it's relatively clean. It's a
> Xantrex/Trace inverter. The problem is that my digital clocks gain
> time. One clock started gaining time at a rate of a few minutes a week,
> then a few minutes a day, and finally was counting 20-second "minutes".
> I threw that one away. Now its replacement is starting to gain time, a
> few minutes a week. Is this because of a perhaps less-than-perfect sine
> wave on my electrical circuit, or is this a common failure mode for
> digital clocks?
>
> 3. The new 8' fluorescent shop lights in my garage (where I park my
> electric MGA and my Zappy scooter) have a loud 60Hz hum. It's
> especially noticeable when they're cold. When they warm up, either they
> get softer or I get accustomed to the noise, as I don't seem to notice
> it as much. While the "mad scientist lab" sound effects are kind of
> cool, they can be annoying at times, too, so I'd rather be without them.
> Is there anything that can be done to make them quieter? I'm guessing
> it's the ballast and not the bulbs that is making the noise. Are there
> options other than replacing the fixtures?
>
> 4. Finally, an anecdote that I forgot to tell a few years back when it
> happened. I was having Thanksgiving dinner with my extended family.
> One of them came up to me (knowing I have a couple of EVs) and said,
> "Hey, I saw one of those new EVs on the road the other day. You know,
> the Aztek?" (For those of you who may not know, the Aztek was
> a...um...different looking car that came out a few years back. It can
> be seen here:
> http://www.autobuyguide.com/auto_reviews/2001/2001_Pontiac_Aztek.html).
> I informed him that it wasn't electric, and after further discussions
> realized that his basic assumption was "goofy-looking car --> must be
> electric". Sigh.
>
> Dean Grannes
> '79 Rabbit EV (Blue Phantom)
> '59 MGA EV (Fire Chief)
> Zappy scooter
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a great idea, but none of the hybrids are designed this way, yet.
The only thing they need is a larger battery, and a simple charger.
It may very well be possible to add a larger battery and charger to
the Toyota hybrids to give them this 'fuel choice' ability.
As it stands now though, hybrids have only about 1kWh of battery
capacity. And they are normally kept at half full, so you could
only get about 0.5kWh into a hybrid pack, which only get's you
1 to 2 miles, saving only about 0.04 gallons of gas. That's just
one gallon over the course of a month. Hardly worth the effort.
With the EV-Button you could 'coax' the battery pack to a lower
SOC and get about 1kWh from the grid, still only slightly better.
But if you could add just 5kWh worth of grid-chargable battery power
to a hybrid then you could go 10 to 20 miles. This could save you
nearly a half gallon per day. 15 gallons or so each month. Much better.
And it would take no time at all to recharge a 5kWh battery pack.
I would like to have 15kWh of battery in my hybrid. This would give me
a range of 30 to 60 miles per day. Then I would only burn gas when I
went on long trips. But each year I would avoid using 360 gallons,
saving me $720 per year. I would instead pay about $300 for
electricity, and have the option to collect my own fuel for free.
L8r
Ryan
PS. I believe the new Toyota Highlander has twice the battery as the
Prius. Although it probably uses more power per mile aswell.
Still an aftermarket battery/charger may still be an option.
I just hope to see the EV-Button in the Prius next year.
Steven S. Lough wrote:
Just saw a quick review of the new Toyota Highlander SUV on the NBC
Morning Show, from
the Detroit Auto Show.
The most interesting fact, is that in stead of using a smaller ICEngine
and augmenting it with Electric,
the unit uses the same V6, and the Electric gives it MORE performance
than the standard unit.
PLUS, it still gets better fuel economy....
This leads me to my post last week, where I only got ONE return comment.
(Thanks Joe)
The IDEA was: to take any of the existing and soon to be hybrids,
and merely CHARGE the existing battery packs, thereby replacing THAT
energy from the grid, rather than just buying more GAS. I know an
increased battery pack, and increase electric ONLY drive would even be
better, but this aproach mentioned above might be less expensive and
less invasive, especially for non-technical users.
What do ya all think ??
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, January 5, 2004, at 06:31 AM, Jim Coate wrote:
Very nice... I assume that in addition to getting the most from the
batteries, this is being used to make driving user friendly for Joe
Consumer. As in get in and drive, with no fussing over batteries. So a
Good Thing.
Amen to that! Especially as I count myself a Joe Consumer who doesn't
want to fuss over my batteries.
If the Big Brain determines that a battery module has gone terribly
wrong, it takes that entire string out of service, warns the driver,
and adjusts the fuel gauge accordingly. This could protect against a
larger meltdown while still given the driver a few miles of driving
range.
It increases the cost for more modules,
There's already one module on each battery, so you shouldn't need any
more.
and still leaves the Big Brain as a weak link,
Strictly speaking, you don't need a Big Brain. The modules have more
than enough computing capacity to act as the central controller.
They'd just hold an election at system startup and pick a leader. If
the leader fails, the survivors hold another election.
but would be nice to effectively have two fuel tanks to choose from.
Hmmmm...
If you lost a battery in each string you'd be stuck. It's a pretty
unlikely scenario, but it could happen if your pack is on its last legs
(extreme SOD or age).
If the modules included the ability to switch the battery on and off
the motor power bus (as in a distributed controller design like the
BatPack at http://www.redrok.com/ev), they could take individual
batteries offline.
Your modules just got rather more expensive, but now you don't need a
controller OR a charger. And you've got an EV that totally manages
your batteries for you and can lose a number of components before it
stops dead.
Lee Hart wrote:
Doug Weathers wrote:
modular battery charging...
Well, we're working on such a system for the Tango right now. It's an
open design, in case anyone wants to duplicate it. But it will cost
you
upwards of $150 per module.
Each battery gets a 12v 15amp charger, and microcomputer to monitor
and
control it. They are networked together to a central microcomputer
running Linux. These modular chargers are about 6.5" x 3" x 1" and sit
right on each 12v battery. They are powered by a PFC front end from
90-265vac (while charging), or by the DC pack voltage as a whole
(while
driving or for balancing).
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, nice work. Almost looks like it would be easier to build one from
scratch though ;-)
On Mon, 2004-01-05 at 10:08, Seth Murray wrote:
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I am a little over a year into a '72 240Z conversion. It has been a
> lot more difficult (and expensive) than my truck conversion, however,
> the car will be simply stunning when I'm done - I'm doing a full
> restoration alongside the conversion. While the 300ZX got 80's-ified,
> it is still a cool car and I would say go for it! Everyone does
> trucks, no one does Z or ZXs. Pictures of my progress on the Z up at
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm My 2 volts worth
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > I have 2 options on conversion, an '88 mitsubishi truck or an 87
> > 300zx. I would like the lists' opinions on the 300zx. It is sporty and
> > has the engine out already. I am worried about how difficult to fit
> > the batteries. The truck is in daily use right now because my Grand-am
> > needs a transmission but when I fix the grand am the truck would be
> > easier. Both are rear wheel drive and the truck has a racing history
> > so it has reinforcments, roll cage not comfy. Either way, I want a
> > tire smoker.
> >
> > "transmission of road vibration to chassis" hadn't concidered that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> '72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not to mention that the alignment of your mounting bolts doesn't have to
be 'quite' so critical when using flexible mounts.b
On Mon, 2004-01-05 at 10:32, David Brandt wrote:
> I think we are forgetting what the original purpose of motor mounts is.
> It's not just vibration and noise isolation. It includes the following (and
> can probably serve more functions):
>
> 1. Support the weight of the motor/transmission, both while at rest and
> while pulling vertical G's for an instant while you traverse that nasty
> pothole you didn't see.
>
> 2. Minimize vibration and noise transmission (remember ICE's vibrate a lot
> more than electric motors).
>
> 3. Continue to secure the motor/transmission under high torque conditions.
> Both RWD and FWD motor/transmission combinations can rotate a LOT under
> torque. This condition is still true with an electric motor, and perhaps
> more so (especially for you drag racers).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A resource for non-scratch builts.
http://avt.inel.gov/fsev.html
looks like the Force does 137 Wh/mile at best, not quite as good as an
EV-1 at 115 Wh/mile at 45 mph. Your US Electricar was in the same
ballpark as a RAV4, around 200 Wh/mile at 45mph. Low power and low
vehicle weight probably helped the Force.
Seth
BTW, 533 Wh/mi is more reasonable that 533 kWh/mi, but it still
sounds pretty high to me. It's about 4 times what my Force uses.
Four times? My Prizm pulls about 250-300wh/mi, and it's fairly
efficient (has the regen, Invicta tires, and the same profile as a
Force). What could make your force get 125 wh/mi? That's below an EV1.
Chris
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many of the places I am seeking employment are either
South in deep San Jose, or way North of me in San
Francisco.
I am trying the employment opportunities that are
within one round trip charge first. However, some
of these have these 'group interviews' (not to be
confused with a 'group hug'), which are located a
what they feel is a central location (even though
the work would be in a different location - odd).
The local options will run out sooner than our fossil
fuel reserves, so I am looking at what it would take
to drive to Campbell or up to San Francisco.
I know that there is a San Francisco page that has
all the EV charging, and I will find it, but as I
was looking I came across:
http://www.buysanfranciscotours.com/tours/electric_car_rental.html
where tourists can rent a GEM to drive on SF streets.
If you have not been to SF, its not unlike Seattle, not
all of it is flat. You are going to do some hill climbing
with steep drops to the next block.
Even when I drove the company ICE for hp.com as a field
service repair person, from a dead stop, the next stop
sign might be perched at the top of a steep climb one
would take in first gear.
I drove both the GEM at the SFO Clean Air Vehicles Event
last year. It barely had enough horsepower to climb the
spiral ramp to the top floor of the multi-level parking
structure (even with a full charge). I did not feel any
regen when taking my foot off the GEM accellerator.
Has anyone drove a GEM on steep SF streets yet, worse
yet, anyone found out if the GEM's brakes are strong
enough on the down side?
At their basement purchase price, one should not expect
a GEM nEV to be a hill climber (and I don't). I feel
they were targeted for flat campus streets.
The last EV accident on the newswires was re-published
way too many times, and written in a way that gave the
unknowing public the impression that EVs are unsafe.
Since the only EVs being offered right now are nEVs, I
fear a crash of GEM will hit the headlines, and do
similar damage to EVs as the Hindenburg has done to h2.
Watt do you think?
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee and the EV List:
I assisted a team of high school students from Georgia with their entry in
the 2003 TdS. As many of you know who have done similar events and worked
closely with high school students on ambitious, under-funded, poorly planned
EV projects with unrealistic time schedules, it can be a very rewarding,
challenging, stressful, frustrating, and fulfilling experience made more
surreal by extreme sleep deprivation, incongruous and illogical rules and
management.
Granted, we could have / should have started earlier, kept in simple, not
tried to rock the boat with rules questions and nitpicking, and taking a
large team of 15 high school students to New Jersey a couple of weeks before
the end of the school year was probably not real smart either. We had gone
to TdS the year before with a four students and volunteered as technical
inspectors. It gave us a great perspective on the types of entries, the
systems and techniques they used, the problems they faced, and a little
insight into the TdS inspection and event management process. We had the
pleasure of meeting the entrants - several like Seth were dedicated,
enthusiastic and creative. Others bordered on unfriendly and rude. That's
life.
After serving as volunteer inspectors, studying the rules, and evaluating
the performance of other entrants over the past five years, we decided to go
for it. As first-timers, we learned a lot, saw a lot, and realized that in
spite of its long history and status as the premier EV / Alt Fuel vehicle
competition in the US, the event is not as it seemed.
We considered the competitions, the driving events, and technical challenges
to be the key aspect of the event. We thought the public displays and car
shows were secondary. Some of us thought it odd that GM would be welcomed
as a title sponsor and there precious Hy-wire fuel cell car displayed and
hyped as the future after the EV-1 recall. (The Hy-wire was stored in a
tractor trailer in Burlington - rolled out in the predawn hours for a
photo-op and put away again. In later public displays, we were able to see
it move but never were able to look at what was inside.) While GM described
the wonders of their high powered starter/alternator-equipped "hybrid" SUV
to be available in a few years others drove their Honda Insights and Toyota
Prius' in showroom condition in the competition. An essentially stock VW
running on biodiesel competed head-to-head with college research projects.
The BEV class drew all kinds: PbA/DC truck and car conversions to LIon/AC,
homebuilts, prototypes, and production vehicles. In Washington, the "Drive
to Survive" group joined in adding to the carnival (side show)atmosphere.
The reality seems to be that TdS organizers are trying to promote an
alternative fuel (including electric) agenda and do what ever it takes and
work with whom ever they can to make that happen. That is not necessarily a
bad thing - just a different focus. The TdS event is staged to attract
enough AFVs / BEVs so that they can be paraded and shown and used to
generate attention and public interest. As the event increasingly focuses
on this goal and tries to accommodate more diverse groups, technologies, and
interests, competition takes a back seat. The vehicles that show up are
such an odd assortment - many rolling science projects that you wonder
whether the public reaction is positive.
> Even the factory teams don't seem to get any coverage that they
> themselves didn't set up and pay for. Do the small teams get any media
> coverage at all?
It is surprising that there is not more national coverage. We did see a lot
of reporters and photographers - most are doing local interest pieces on
local teams participating, covering the high glitz aspects, or focused on
celebrities and politicians.
>What exactly did they do that makes this a requirement? Is charging at
> the halfway point banned? How about battery swapping? Or solar cars? Or
> plain old 'lead sleds' like the Read Beastie?
Last year, the event was centered in Burlington NJ for a couple of days
where testing and the range event were held. We drove to Trenton, NJ for a
public display and autocross competition retuning to Burlington for
charging. The drive to Phili was one-way. There was no charging available
there and the next stop was Washington DC. All teams had to get there
vehicles to the hotel in DC by that night. Charging was available there.
The next morning we drove to the Mall in DC for the last public display. It
looks like this year's format will be similar.
There were some entries with large solar arrays. On the day of the range
event, there was little sun. The drive from Phili to DC was in late
afternoon and evening, again in a thunderstorm. During the range and
reliability events, charging or battery swapping was not allowed although
two years ago, scooters with interchangeable packs were allowed to compete.
Lead sleds could work but the rules are pretty specific about not exceeding
the vehicle's original GVWR. Our truck was about 100 lb over after adding
additional batteries (T-145s) to bring the pack up from 96 to 156 V. We had
a major pissing contest with judges over suspension, tires, structural
modifications, and safety issues for this small variance though in the past
vehicles exceeded the limits by much larger margins. The TdS schedule and
the need to show the vehicles in more cities to more people in a shorter
time have probably limited BEV entries to being trailered between venues.
I know events like this are always a series of compromises. The EV
competitions we hold in Georgia twice a year only last two days but include
driving (acceleration, autocross, and range) and academic events. I wonder
if there is enough interest in the more driving-oriented events for
practical BEVs. While electric drag racing is fun and showcases EV's unique
characteristics, there is some appeal to multi-day long-range rally driving
that can illustrate the durability and practical range capability of
everyday EVs, not just the high-dollar solar EV racers. What do you think?
-Alan
Alan C. Shedd, P.E.
Advisor to EV Education Program
(ph) 706-367-6194
(fx) 707-367-6139
(cell) 770-654-0027
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
... perhaps a 'solution' is to
> connect the DC in opposite polarity every other season so that the
> tungsten is forced to migrate in the opposite direction every
other
> season? (Think of it as VERY low frequency AC ;^)
>
>
>
Aw, Roger, you've outdone yourself with that one!
Speaking of very low frequency AC (that which is running my car,
no reversed cells for more than 6 months now :) ) I found out
what was causing my loss of power. Just around the time I put
the second string in, I noticed a lack of power that seemed to be
related to the addition of the string of Hawkers. Weird at the
time, but a prosaic explanation as it turned out. On the
weekend, tired of driving around in the Insight in the -25C
weather, I took the D out to see how the heaters worked. I took
along the programmer for the controller, and it seemed like a
good idea to check the throttle digitizing. To my surprise,
pedal to the metal was only 6 volts - should be 10. So I
reprogrammed it to max at 6 volts and instantly I had full power
restored. EV Grin again! I was so power-crazed I skidded
half-way through a red light, then gave up the idea of stopping
and just floored it again. Whoopee! Anyway, it seems I have not
really tested out the second string thing. Tonight, after doing
my monthly battery maintenance I looked at the throttle and found
that the linkage had come loose. Tightened her up and put on a
drop of locktite, should be back to full range now. BTW,
Shopper's Drug Mart has a sale on distilled water, for all you
Canadian EV'ers. 99 cents /4 liters. I used 8 tonight...
I had one of those annoying incidents on Friday night, familiar,
I'm sure to all the other Insight owners on this list. Gisele
and I were returning home from a trip to get some insulation for
the floor of the EV (it's carpet time). It was -25C and the
Insight had pulled 7.8 liters/100km for this trip, never warmed
up and generally was a pig to drive. We had to park on the
street because the EV and the van were taking up the inside
parking spots at the condo. As we were getting out of the car
(me totally disgusted), this dude on the other side of the street
calls out "Hey, is that one of them Electric Cars?" I tried to be
polite. "No, it's actually a gas car". "Well, it looks like one
of those Honda Electric cars", he said. "Well, it is a Honda,
but it's really a gas car with an electric turbo", I said as I
turned and walked away. Grrr Arrgh!
Incidental note: there was a murder on the street outside the
store we had gone to, not 10 minutes after we were there. They
thought it might have been road rage. Probably some guy who was
bummed out about having to drive a gas car in the freezing cold
instead of a nice warm EV.
Mike Hoskinson
I have an alibus.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe we should standardize on a different energy unit, to avoid
confusion. I nominate the Electron-Volt. It has a convenient
abbreviation, "eV". So David's correction would read 1.2e22 eV
per mile.
How many eV's can arc from the head of a pin?
Mike Hoskinson
just trying to be, ah, helpful. :)
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 5 Jan 2004 at 17:43, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
Lawrence wrote: "I use 533 kw per mile..."
I think you meant to say: "I use 533 WATTS per mile..." a factor of 1000.
Wrong again. He meant to say 533 Watt-HOURS per mile.
Come on guys, get the units right. What is the problem here? Is it just
careless typing, or is it wooly thinking?
I mean no offense, but we're all supposed to be well-informed about EVs.
The vehicle users who comprise the general public, including the technically
literate, expect us to know what we're talking about. How the heck can we
make a good impression on them if we use incorrect (or worse, misleading)
terminology?
BTW, 533 Wh/mi is more reasonable that 533 kWh/mi, but it still sounds
pretty high to me. It's about 4 times what my Force uses.
David Roden
Akron OH USA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There was some discussion on the EV list recently about battery heaters,
but I didn't see the results of the thread.
The current cold snap here in Portland, Oregon gave me the opportunity
to test the battery heaters I bought from Victor at Metric Mind. These
are individual heaters that stick on the bottom of the battery, and can
be powered from about 12v AC or DC. I used a 12vac, 3 amp wall wart.
The battery (Optima Yellow Top) has been sitting in my garage with 25
of his litter-mates since July. They've been sitting on the hollow core
cardboard packing layer that they came with. I wrapped the battery up
with some foam that I had laying around to approximate the insulation
that I'll use in the battery boxes.
Before starting the test I measured the temperature of the battery posts
with a Radio Shack IR temp sensor at about 40 degrees F. The air
temperature in the garage was about 30F.
I logged the data using the BMS that Chris Brune and I are working on.
The display node logs data once per second, which is too frequent for
this test, but that's how it works for now. It was nice to be able to
just glance at the BMS display on my desk to check the temperature of
the battery out in the garage. I have a picture of the display node
online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/bms/mainDisplay.html (this
photo is not from the temp test run).
I was pleased to see the battery temperature climb about 5 degrees per
hour for most of the test. After five hours the battery reached 68F.
This was at about 6:15pm and the outside temperature was dropping fast.
The battery temperature continued to climb, but at a slower rate, and
eventually got to 75F by about 9:15. My target temperature was 78.8F
but I didn't have time to let the test run any longer.
It looks like these heaters will be more than sufficient for my needs,
especially when the batterys and heaters are in enclosed boxes with
proper insulation.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
