EV Digest 3262
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lee's BMS
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PFC-20 remote control (was Wabbit Weport)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery heater testing
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Ammeters or amps & Volts - seeking wisdom
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: GEMs on SF hills?
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DC Christmas Lights
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Grannes, Dean" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DC Christmas Lights
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV an' Stuff
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
by "Park, Youngchul" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery heater testing
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lee's BMS
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: GEM charger question
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: GEMs on SF hills?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: GEM charger question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Interesting measurement tool
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ammeters or amps & Volts - seeking wisdom
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> I haven't seen a post from you in a while , figured you were just
> working on some EV stuff.
Actually, I've been buried in NON-EV stuff (the kind of work that pays
the bills :-)
> How is the BMS coming along? Is it time to get on (a) board or just
> keep waiting? Any plans to offer a complete kit, or finished product?
As I get time, I've been updating the design a bit. Nothing big, but it
changes the PCB layout. I'm about 75% done with this. So, the first time
I get a few days free, I'll finish it up and make an announcement that
I'm ordering boards so anyone who wants a set can contact me.
Same for parts; I don't mind placing an order for N sets of parts, and
sending them out with the boards. But, I don't want to have to buy all
the parts out of my wallet, and then sit on them until someone decides
to order. Same for assembling them myself. I just don't have that much
time.
> Sell the BMS that does the balancing thing
> Forget your perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Cute!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes. It reads Amps and Volts with a D to A converter. Temperature and line
voltage can be added with another DPDT relay (plus coil driver transistor).
The computer runs the throttle control with a D to A converter.
If the charger does not answer, we assume the power is off or the link is
broken.
There is a watchdog timer to turn the charger to zero current if the link is
broken or the computer quits.
There are only three commands:
1. Command the relay what to read (the four suggestions mean four
variations)
2. Request the ADC measurement (0 to 4 volts) (scaling is done in the PC)
3. Command the DAC with the throttle setting. (0 to 6 volts)
Each command has a confirmation message returned to the computer.
My software uses a PID loop to control the throttle to maintain the voltage
and current within the programmed limits. Time is in "Seconds Since New
Years" so it is midnight compatible but not new years compatible. Charging
into a new year will make the software stop. If requested, I can remove this
limitation but it will probably delay distribution for about a week.
If the discharger function is not going to be used, I have a simplified
installation idea. The upper board will not need to come off, but one
resistor will need to be changed (the same as John Lussmyer's) to reduce
noise in the circuit. If you want line voltage and temperature, two wires
will needed to be soldered to the top PCB.
When I get the software to a stable configuration, I will send out a demo
program that works without a charger connected.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: PFC-20 remote control (was Wabbit Weport)
> Interesting indeed.
>
> Is it bi-directional with the charger(s) sending any data back to the
> host computer (like power on, temperature, current, happy, angry, etc.)?
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >> RS-232 ASCII protocol. The PC is the master and each charger is a slave
on
> >> an RS-485 network.
> >
> >
> > Now you have me VERY interested. Can you list the commands?
> > _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> > \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > =(___)=
> > U
> > Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What is the heater rating in watts? Amps?
Burrrr. It was in the teens here last night. It warmed up to 27 about 11 PM
tonight so I expect snow by morning.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ralph Merwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicles" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 10:39 PM
Subject: Battery heater testing
>
> There was some discussion on the EV list recently about battery heaters,
> but I didn't see the results of the thread.
>
> The current cold snap here in Portland, Oregon gave me the opportunity
> to test the battery heaters I bought from Victor at Metric Mind. These
> are individual heaters that stick on the bottom of the battery, and can
> be powered from about 12v AC or DC. I used a 12vac, 3 amp wall wart.
>
> The battery (Optima Yellow Top) has been sitting in my garage with 25
> of his litter-mates since July. They've been sitting on the hollow core
> cardboard packing layer that they came with. I wrapped the battery up
> with some foam that I had laying around to approximate the insulation
> that I'll use in the battery boxes.
>
> Before starting the test I measured the temperature of the battery posts
> with a Radio Shack IR temp sensor at about 40 degrees F. The air
> temperature in the garage was about 30F.
>
> I logged the data using the BMS that Chris Brune and I are working on.
> The display node logs data once per second, which is too frequent for
> this test, but that's how it works for now. It was nice to be able to
> just glance at the BMS display on my desk to check the temperature of
> the battery out in the garage. I have a picture of the display node
> online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/bms/mainDisplay.html (this
> photo is not from the temp test run).
>
> I was pleased to see the battery temperature climb about 5 degrees per
> hour for most of the test. After five hours the battery reached 68F.
> This was at about 6:15pm and the outside temperature was dropping fast.
> The battery temperature continued to climb, but at a slower rate, and
> eventually got to 75F by about 9:15. My target temperature was 78.8F
> but I didn't have time to let the test run any longer.
>
> It looks like these heaters will be more than sufficient for my needs,
> especially when the batterys and heaters are in enclosed boxes with
> proper insulation.
>
> Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I have a space in my vehicle dash where the face-level middle vents aren't
(since the dash is out of a later model that had them, but I couldn't use
the heater from that vehicle).
This space can be opened out to be just right to fit two of the large (96mm
square) analogue meters that I have. Since I have two 150 Volt meters and
two 75mV current-shunt meters, I have a choice. The options of items to
measure are as I see it:
1) Battery Volts,
2) Motor Volts,
3) Battery Amps,
4) Motor Amps.
I could put in one Voltmeter and one Amp meter, and use switches to switch
each meter between the Battery and Motor parameter, or
I could put in two Amp meters, and a small Voltmeter away to one side,
which could later be replaced with an E-meter (or equivalent).
What would be the better option?
And on a related issue, I reviewed my collection of ammeter shunts, and I
find that I have a mixed bag that is only so-so what I think I need
(keeping in mind that this will only be an around-town errand vehicle of
around 2000lb/900kg). I have a 400A 75mV shunt that I *think* would be
right for the Battery amps, however the list is as follows:
400A 75mV (one of, would make the meter 400A full scale [FSD])
400A 100mV (two of. one would make the ammeter 300A FSD, the pair
paralelled would be 600A)
1000A 60mV (one of, 1250A FSD)
300A 100mV (one of, 225A FSD)
200A 75mV (two of. one would make the ammeter 200A FSD, the pair paralelled
would be 400A)
Keeping in mind the low-ish performance spec, at 96 to 144V [yet to be
determined] I *think* I will be looking at 400A Battery and 600A Motor to
have meters that will be useful. What do you think?
So the related issue is paralelling shunts. To paralell shunts, what is the
best way?
Thanks
James Massey
'78 Daihatsu cab/chassis 1300kg truck conversion in progress
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:03 PM 01/05/2004 -0800, you wrote:
I just hope to see the EV-Button in the Prius next year.
That EV button really ticks me off - why would they have an EV only mode
button built-in to the car, and have it available in europe and asia, but
specifically remove the button in the USA only?? Are we too stupid to
understand a button?
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:47 PM 01/05/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Has anyone drove a GEM on steep SF streets yet, worse
yet, anyone found out if the GEM's brakes are strong
enough on the down side?
I have driven a GEM on fairly steep streets, and it can maintain about
19mph without too much strain. Going downhill, the speed governor/regen
braking kicks in at about 27 mph to slow you down, you should have noticed
this going downhill, it can be quite jerky, which is why I usually rode the
brake downhill for a smoother ride.
The last EV accident on the newswires was re-published
way too many times, and written in a way that gave the
unknowing public the impression that EVs are unsafe.
The GEM has a sturdy roll cage and seatbelts, and is very solid and safe.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 5:16 PM
Subject: RE: DC Christmas Lights
> Tom Guillaume wrote:
>
> > >Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
>
> "Many" meaning 'significantly more than when they were run off AC', or
> 'about as many as when run off AC'?
>
> > DC applied to filaments does indeed shorten filament life.
>
> There is a graph on the page you referred to that suggests that the
> minimum life for a 'normal' filament on DC is still 1000hrs (@30mA) to
> 3000hrs (@100mA),
Minimum life? Or do you mean Average life? There's a BIG difference! The way
lamps are rated for "average life" is that 1000 or so of them are lit, and
when 1/2 of them burn out, that is designated as "average life"!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
so it seems unlikely that large numbers of bulbs would
> fail from this cause in the few-to-several weeks of use that Christmas
> lights typically see annually (at least not in a single season).
>
> Counterintuitively, this graph suggests that when running bulbs on DC it
> may *increase* their life to run them at slightly higher current instead
> of lower current, so perhaps running a slightly higher DC voltage could
> be a good thing.
>
> > The problem has to do with the tungsten that is
> > evaporated from the filaments tend to migrate towards one end
> > of the filament due to the electric field generated by the DC
> > applied to the filament.
>
> Assuming that the effect does not shorten the bulb life such that they
> die in less than one season's worth of use, perhaps a 'solution' is to
> connect the DC in opposite polarity every other season so that the
> tungsten is forced to migrate in the opposite direction every other
> season? (Think of it as VERY low frequency AC ;^)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So in addition to the Magnecharger "standard", Toyota made their own
inductive system? And in addition to the Avcon "standard" there is a
Yazaki conductive system (which appears to have been styled after a
gasoline filler nozzle)? And two nominally identical cars maintained by
the same company use two different chargers?
Good Grief! No wonder there has been so much discussion over the charger
connectors.
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> Interestingly the charger at the Green St garage appears to be
> different. Pictures taken by a friend of mine are here:
> http://www-images.thok.org/me/toys/e-rav4/index.html
Park, Youngchul wrote:
> This connector [at Green St Garage] is Yazaki (not Avcon).
> Conductive charger.
>>http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
>>http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
Chris Zach wrote:
Hm. The Tufts one looks like a small-paddle Magnecharger. There
was an adapter to allow LPI to use those.
Park, Youngchul wrote:
> It is an inductive charger [at Tufts] made by Toyota.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Still, I had many fatalities. Many lights burned out,
> "Many" meaning 'significantly more than when they were run off AC', or
> 'about as many as when run off AC'?
"Many" meaning several dozen in eight few brand new strings. Probably
5-10% of the lights are out. (Interestingly, the majority of them are
the yellow bulbs). Some are just individuals that are out (continuity
is maintained so the rest of the string lights), whereas some have taken
out the rest of the string segment. I'm going to have to do some major
bulb testing/replacement when I take them down this week.
Thanks for all the responses!
Dean
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
> "Many" meaning several dozen in eight few brand new strings. Probably
> 5-10% of the lights are out. (Interestingly, the majority of them are
> the yellow bulbs). Some are just individuals that are out (continuity
> is maintained so the rest of the string lights), whereas some have
> taken out the rest of the string segment. I'm going to have to do
> some major bulb testing/replacement when I take them down this week.
If this is a series string, many of them have bulbs that short when
their filament fails. This raises the voltage across all the remaining
lights, making them fail sooner. 5-10% out could mean 5-10% overvoltage
for the rest, which would *drastically* shorten their life.
Light bulbs don't generally care about waveform; they respond to the
true RMS voltage applied. In fact, they are good RMS indicators; two
bulbs of the same brightness have the same RMS voltage applied,
regardless of waveform.
On notching; this is mainly a concern with long-life bulbs, being run at
lower than normal voltage. Notching means you get less life increase
than theory predicted you'd get. I doubt that it was involved in running
your lights on DC vs. AC, due to the short life you were getting.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV
> At 07:03 PM 01/05/2004 -0800, you wrote:
> >I just hope to see the EV-Button in the Prius next year.
>
> That EV button really ticks me off - why would they have an EV only mode
> button built-in to the car, and have it available in europe and asia, but
> specifically remove the button in the USA only?? Are we too stupid to
> understand a button?
>
> brad
>
Hi Brad an' All;
IMHO they don't want you to see how nice an EV goes! Same reason GM got
rid of, crushed, killed the EV 1's They don't WANT them to catch on and rock
the automotive boat. You know that EV 1's would sell like wildfire IF you
could buy one. I had a ride drive with a buddy last summer, in Detroit, on
the way to Woodburn. I let him drive it first, he got back with such a
heartwarming EV grin it was beautiful. I asked him if he would buy it if he
could. He said "YES! In a nanosecond!!!" At 32k or so, like GM had
threatened to sell them. YES again, shouting like he did! The GM dudes
laughed at me when I offered to buy one at EVerytime I have driven EV 1
myself. Like the pretty forest green one I drove at EVS 17 in Montreal, I
was ready to take out a second mortgage on my house, go rent/buy a towbar
rig to tow it home to CT with my Jetta, after all EV 1 is about the same
weight<g>! Probably tow just fine? Wash the Diseasel soot off when I got
home. It would have a warm , loving garage in CT. Rabbit would hafta winter
outside, while my EV 1 would stay inside, where I could gloat over, and
admire it daily. Popping that dream bubble, the Rabbit lives there, for now
and looks like forEVer, or til I build something newer.
All the auto builders have kow- towed to the greatest Govt Oil Money can
buy, Ford Honda, Iraq, Kenny Kilowatt, Citicar, Toyota and EV ery body else
that brought out drivable EV's The EV 1 is/was the Gold Standard for EV's
Maybe AC Propulsion can take that title someday, or Tango. All it takes is a
few Fighter planes worth of Bux, or , hell, a nuclear sub or two<g>! Oh,
wait, I want one nuke's funding for a Bullet train from Portland ME to
Richmond VA, trax we could REALLY use the Acela train @ 175- 200 mph on, and
cut the fares so Everybody could enjoy it.
OK got off trak, yet again. Maybe the Chinese or Indians can come up with
an in-your-face Electric car, sell them at home and eventually, over here.
The First Toyotas and Hondas didn't leave home, ether.The Chinese, God bless
them, are serious about air quality, maty legislate EV's into
existance?Advantages of a totalalistic regeme? We WILL do it for the common
good!!
Not wanting to get deeply into politics on the List, a no no. I feel that
our next Regime Change will set the cource for EV's a lot more than tech
advances, sorry to say.BTW Micheal Moore didn't respond to my "Why cant we
buy an EV" letter, but he gets a million hits a day, so he must be pretty
busy??Read his book " Dude, Wheres my Country" and weep Or "Downsize This",
his other. Wish HE'D run for Prez! He'd have my vote!
Seeya, at Las Vegas!
Bob
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Waddell wrote:
>>> I just hope to see the EV-Button in the Prius next year.
>> That EV button really ticks me off -- why would they have an
>> EV only mode button built-in to the car, and have it available
>> in europe and asia, but specifically remove the button in the
>> USA only? Are we too stupid to understand a button?
No; but the EPA is too 'stupid' to understand it :-)
They have to test the car for emissions and fuel economy. But they have
no test standards for a true hybrid. So if Toyota had left the EV button
in place, the EPA would have delayed certification until they could
figure out what to do with it. So Toyota took the easy way out, and
removed the button.
Maybe we'll get it back someday, if the EPA ever gets around to writing
a test standard. Or, if hackers figure out how to put the button back in
:-)
Bob Rice wrote:
> BTW Micheal Moore didn't respond to my "Why can't we buy an EV"
> letter, but he gets a million hits a day, so he must be pretty
> busy? Read his book, "Dude, Where's my Country?" and weep. Or
> "Downsize This", his other.
He's a character! I just watched "Bowling for Columbine". You have to
laugh, because otherwise you cry!
Moore certainly sees the EVs vs. Big Oil problem. Indeed, it's part of a
much larger picture. But he's certainly got his hands full trying to
document it.
In my view, he's doing his best to do something about the problem as he
sees it -- using humor, documentaries, and entertainment to get his
message out. It may not be the best strategy, but it's what he knows how
to do. And, who can say that there is any better way?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a brief history of Toyota's charging standard:
Initially Toyota was using Yazaki conductive connector.
GM was using large paddle inductive charger.
GM persuaded Toyota to join inductive standard, not the Avcon conductive standard
Honda and Ford were pushing.
Toyota used large paddle inductive charger for a short time.
Toyota suggested GM to reduce the size of inductive paddle. This one become
"small paddle inductive" standard many RAV4 EV's are using including the one
at Tufts.
Young
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 6:22 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Rav4 EV's for rent near Boston, MA
So in addition to the Magnecharger "standard", Toyota made their own
inductive system? And in addition to the Avcon "standard" there is a
Yazaki conductive system (which appears to have been styled after a
gasoline filler nozzle)? And two nominally identical cars maintained by
the same company use two different chargers?
Good Grief! No wonder there has been so much discussion over the charger
connectors.
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> Interestingly the charger at the Green St garage appears to be
> different. Pictures taken by a friend of mine are here:
> http://www-images.thok.org/me/toys/e-rav4/index.html
Park, Youngchul wrote:
> This connector [at Green St Garage] is Yazaki (not Avcon).
> Conductive charger.
>>http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_Rav4EV.jpg
>>http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/Tufts_EV_charger.jpg
Chris Zach wrote:
> Hm. The Tufts one looks like a small-paddle Magnecharger. There
> was an adapter to allow LPI to use those.
Park, Youngchul wrote:
> It is an inductive charger [at Tufts] made by Toyota.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley writes:
>
> What is the heater rating in watts? Amps?
12v AC or DC, 36 watts, 3 amps.
> Burrrr. It was in the teens here last night. It warmed up to 27 about 11 PM
> tonight so I expect snow by morning.
Yep. Today would be a better day for heater testing since it's barely 20
outside this morning and snowing and blowing, with freezing rain in the
forcast.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:44 AM
Subject: Re: Lee's BMS
>
> As I get time, I've been updating the design a bit. Nothing big, but it
> changes the PCB layout. I'm about 75% done with this. So, the first time
> I get a few days free, I'll finish it up and make an announcement that
> I'm ordering boards so anyone who wants a set can contact me.
>
Didn't see anybody else post on this hot item,. You need 10 min ?
> Same for parts; I don't mind placing an order for N sets of parts, and
> sending them out with the boards. But, I don't want to have to buy all
> the parts out of my wallet, and then sit on them until someone decides
> to order.
I don't see why anybody doing this project wouldn't want all the parts also
, at least for the controll board , the relays might be different , I got
them now ,
Same for assembling them myself. I just don't have that much
> time.
>
How about time for getting out of the cold for a little Florida sun , ;-)
This sounds like a fun project that any ev owner would enjoy, Have you
though about putting it in nuts and bolts mag, they use the stamp and seem
to be looking for things to do with it.
A hood ornament is a crazy thing
it makes the people stop and sing
"what is that crazy ,spinning wing"
"its a interest generator not a over unity thing"
it sits on a ev and that's how the word gets out
speaking of Hood ornaments , we are having the contest again , I'd like to
change some of the rules , like it doesn't have to be wind powered or make
power, open it up a little , 9-11-04 will be the dead line to send entries,
www.grassrootsev.com The prize will be a EVTV cd , as nobody wants Lee's
money. ( I think your money scared everybody away last year) . You never
said which one you liked best.
Steve Clunn
> > Sell the BMS that does the balancing thing
> > Forget your perfect offering
> > There is a crack in everything
> > That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
> Cute!
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The cheapa$$ way would be to get 6 automotive chargers that range in cost
from 20 bucks to 60 bucks. Sort of a way of getting a reg and and a charger
in one. A PFC 20 would be great though. Charge in about a half hour on
110v.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: GEM charger question
> Chris Weaver wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents that runs
fine
> > but refuses to charge. (Don't ask me why the dealer doesn't fix it -
I'm
> > just glad I got them to finally deliver it - a multimonth horror story)
> >
> > I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the charger, I
get
> > a blinking red light and beep, which according to an online manual
(which I
> > can't seem to find again), this indicates that the charger believes that
> > the batteries are too low to charge. This was confirmed by the
first-line
> > GEM service phone answerer (technician would probably be too
> > generous). The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter indicates
~80%
> > charge remaining, and when I probe the individual batteries, they are
> > sitting at ~12.3 unloaded. One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
> > string and charged it individually. That isn't fully discharged is it?
> >
> > I was on hold for an hour waiting to speak to a real technician (maybe
he
> > went home for the day and didn't tell the first tier guy???) I want to
> > know what the minimum voltage the charger expects to see is before it
will
> > start charging, so I can take the batteries out of the picture.
> >
> > Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else could it be besides
a
> > bum charger?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
>
>
> Geez!!! I really need to build a NEV class charger.
> How many are out there that are Dead just because somebody cheaped out
> and saved a couple of bucks.
>
> The problem is I need about $500 more than the market would pay.
> I am really looking at this market.
>
> What is a good charger worth for the NEV world?
> What would you folks pay??
> I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
> Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
> Iso of course... Sigh!!
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Alan! Good to hear from you. Welcome to 2004!
> I assisted a team of high school students from Georgia with their
> entry in the 2003 TdS. As many of you know who have done similar
> events and worked closely with high school students on ambitious,
> under-funded, poorly planned EV projects with unrealistic time
> schedules, it can be a very rewarding, challenging, stressful,
> frustrating, and fulfilling experience made more surreal by extreme
> sleep deprivation, incongruous and illogical rules and management.
Boy, that's a excellent 1-paragraph summary!
To me, I think it is the journey rather than the end results that
matter. Your kids will remember that experience for the rest of their
lives. If things had been well-planned, well-funded, and gone smoothly,
it would have just faded quietly into their memory.
> We had gone to TdS the year before with a four students and
> volunteered as technical inspectors. It gave us a great perspective
> on the types of entries, the systems and techniques they used, the
> problems they faced, and a little insight into the TdS inspection
> and event management process. We had the pleasure of meeting the
> entrants - several like Seth were dedicated, enthusiastic and
> creative. Others bordered on unfriendly and rude. That's life.
This is one aspect of the TdS that appealed to me -- actually being able
to see the cars in action, touch them, and talk to the participants.
Kind of the opposite from the usual race or football mentality, where
the other team is the 'enemy' and viewed with hostility.
> As first-timers, we learned a lot, saw a lot, and realized that in
> spite of its long history and status as the premier EV / Alt Fuel
> vehicle competition in the US, the event is not as it seemed.
>
> We considered the competitions, the driving events, and technical
> challenges to be the key aspect of the event. We thought the public
> displays and car shows were secondary. Some of us thought it odd
> that GM would be welcomed as a title sponsor and their precious
> Hy-wire fuel cell car displayed and hyped as the future after the
> EV-1 recall...
>
> The reality seems to be that TdS organizers are trying to promote an
> alternative fuel (including electric) agenda and do whatever it takes
> and work with whomever they can to make that happen... The TdS event
> is staged to attract enough AFVs / BEVs so that they can be paraded
> and shown and used to generate attention and public interest. As the
> event increasingly focuses on this goal and tries to accommodate
> more diverse groups, technologies, and interests, competition takes
> a back seat.
Your use of the word 'staged' worries me. From a distance, the past TdS
rules seemed to be trying to create a 'level playing field' so you could
compare the performance of the different vehicles. You could get some
idea whether a given technology was in fact a strong contender, or just
hype. It provided a welcome source of objective data to refute critics.
If, for example, some critic said "BEVs don't have enough range," one
could point to BEV entries in the TdS that had certified ranges as good
as ICE vehicles.
In contrast, a car show is a 'staged' event. The cars don't move. The
specs are all marketing hype. There are no objective comparisons. All
you get are PR people, not technical people. All flash, no substance.
> It is surprising that there is not more national coverage. We did
> see a lot of reporters and photographers - most are doing local
> interest pieces on local teams participating, covering the high
> glitz aspects, or focused on celebrities and politicians.
My guess is that if they make it a 'car show', then it has to compete
with the likes of the Detroit Auto Show. EXTREME amounts of hype and
glamour! The TdS can't hope to compete in this arena (and shouldn't
try)!
The national media is obsessed with violence (if it bleeds, it leads)
and glamour/personalities (gossip, dirty laundry). I can why the TdS has
a hard time getting national coverage. Nobody died? No movie stars? No
scandals? Forget it!
As stupid is this may sound, maybe the TdS should recruit some famous
personalities, and assign one to each team. Then the media would follow
them around like dogs, hanging on every word. The actual cars might even
get shown in the background. :-)
> Last year, the event was centered in Burlington NJ for a couple
> of days where testing and the range event were held. We drove to
> Trenton, NJ for a public display and autocross competition retuning
> to Burlington for charging. The drive to Phili was one-way. There
> was no charging available there and the next stop was Washington DC.
I still don't understand. EVs can be plugged in anywhere -- you don't
need to rely on special charging stations. Do they ban opportunity
charging, or battery pack swaps?
> There were some entries with large solar arrays. On the day of the
> range event, there was little sun. The drive from Phili to DC was
> in late afternoon and evening, again in a thunderstorm.
Yes, this is always a risk with solar. The northeast is not a very
solar-friendly venue.
> During the range and reliability events, charging or battery swapping
> was not allowed although two years ago, scooters with interchangeable
> packs were allowed to compete.
A stupid question; what if you do it anyway? I don't mean cheat (do it
without telling); I mean do it and tell them you did it, and accept
whatever penalty they apply. Sure, you won't "win", but who cares? The
whole point is to learn, to have fun, and just to *be* there.
Do you think the kids that built "Helios the Heron" actually expected to
win? Just building the car, and getting it to finish the race at all was
victory enough for them!
> The TdS schedule and the need to show the vehicles in more cities
> to more people in a shorter time have probably limited BEV entries
> to being trailered between venues.
This sounds like a travelling car show, not a race.
> I wonder if there is enough interest in the more driving-oriented
> events for practical BEVs. While electric drag racing is fun and
> showcases EV's unique characteristics, there is some appeal to
> multi-day long-range rally driving that can illustrate the durability
> and practical range capability of everyday EVs, not just the
> high-dollar solar EV racers. What do you think?
I think there is an interest, but not to the public at large. It's a
specialized sport. And that fine; there are *lots* of specialized
sports.
If the TdS is trying to appeal to the public at large with a range-based
driving-oriented alternative-fuel-vehicle race, then I think they will
fail. The public isn't interested, so the media isn't interested.
So I think they should stick to their roots, and run the race for the
benefit and encouragement of the participants, and for that fraction of
the public that *is* interested in such events. They are the TdS's true
market.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce one of us must be getting oldtimers disease because both our big a$$es
were in both NEV's(GEM & THINK) and we both remarked at how well they went
up those spiral ramps with two big people. We thought the GEM was faster
because(yes we did drag race them) it had the smaller wheels and the Think
had turf tires(the wide ones) I think they would be a great SF city cars.
I've seen them all over SF with one box van converted from a GEM long bed
truck. I drive the Streets of SF all the time and have learned routes to
avoid the big hills. If needed however I can scoot up to Twin Peaks. There
is a bicycle map of San Francisco with routes showing elevation. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 7:47 PM
Subject: GEMs on SF hills?
> Many of the places I am seeking employment are either
> South in deep San Jose, or way North of me in San
> Francisco.
>
> I am trying the employment opportunities that are
> within one round trip charge first. However, some
> of these have these 'group interviews' (not to be
> confused with a 'group hug'), which are located a
> what they feel is a central location (even though
> the work would be in a different location - odd).
>
> The local options will run out sooner than our fossil
> fuel reserves, so I am looking at what it would take
> to drive to Campbell or up to San Francisco.
>
> I know that there is a San Francisco page that has
> all the EV charging, and I will find it, but as I
> was looking I came across:
>
> http://www.buysanfranciscotours.com/tours/electric_car_rental.html
> where tourists can rent a GEM to drive on SF streets.
>
> If you have not been to SF, its not unlike Seattle, not
> all of it is flat. You are going to do some hill climbing
> with steep drops to the next block.
>
> Even when I drove the company ICE for hp.com as a field
> service repair person, from a dead stop, the next stop
> sign might be perched at the top of a steep climb one
> would take in first gear.
>
> I drove both the GEM at the SFO Clean Air Vehicles Event
> last year. It barely had enough horsepower to climb the
> spiral ramp to the top floor of the multi-level parking
> structure (even with a full charge). I did not feel any
> regen when taking my foot off the GEM accellerator.
>
> Has anyone drove a GEM on steep SF streets yet, worse
> yet, anyone found out if the GEM's brakes are strong
> enough on the down side?
>
> At their basement purchase price, one should not expect
> a GEM nEV to be a hill climber (and I don't). I feel
> they were targeted for flat campus streets.
>
> The last EV accident on the newswires was re-published
> way too many times, and written in a way that gave the
> unknowing public the impression that EVs are unsafe.
>
> Since the only EVs being offered right now are nEVs, I
> fear a crash of GEM will hit the headlines, and do
> similar damage to EVs as the Hindenburg has done to h2.
>
> Watt do you think?
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
> Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
> Iso of course... Sigh!!
Last I checked the NG1 was an isolated 1000W charger, so about
$0.40/watt (using your pricing), not $1/watt.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Strubhar wrote:
> Minimum life? Or do you mean Average life? There's a BIG
> difference!
Yes, absolutely there is a big difference between average and minimum!
The graph I referred to
<http://www.htl.co.jp/pro/kogata/parts/info_007b.gif>, specifically says
'DC minimum life'.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Grannes, Dean wrote:
> "Many" meaning several dozen in eight few brand new strings.
> Probably 5-10% of the lights are out.
So, is this a significantly higher fatality rate than in past (AC)
years, or more or less typical?
> (Interestingly, the majority of them are the yellow bulbs).
This may simply be coincidental, but would make me question if there
might have been something substandard about the batch of yellow bulbs
that made it into your strings. Now that virtually all of these
Christmas lights are incredibly cheap made-in-China items, it is almost
unusual for a string to last more than a season (on AC!) without losing
a bulb or two. If there is a quality control glitch and some strings
make it out with a few bulbs of the wrong (lower) voltage installed
(like all of the yellow bulbs on a given shift ;^), then these bulbs
will fail prematurely and if they are the type that keep the string lit
when they fail, then the voltage to the rest of the string gets
increased slightly which speeds the failure of the other bulbs in a
continuing vicious cycle.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just saw this device in a trade magazine, it may
be usefull for those on the list.
It's made by B&K Precision Corp.
http://bkprecision.com/www/NP_Products.asp
go to search and type in 'senselite'
It's like a small flashlight, when you point it
towards a
socket, switch or wire and there is 40-300Vac present
a bright red LED will come on.
$19.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> The options of items to measure are as I see it:
> 1) Battery Volts,
> 2) Motor Volts,
> 3) Battery Amps,
> 4) Motor Amps.
There may be others. For example:
5. 12v accessory battery voltage
6. 12v accessory battery current
7. Voltage of individual batteries in the propulsion pack,
or of each half of the pack voltage (to detect bad batteries,
fault conditions, or out-of-balance situations).
8. Charging current (separate since it is of the opposite polarity
and typically much smaller than driving current).
> I could put in one Voltmeter and one Amp meter, and use switches
> to switch each meter between the Battery and Motor parameter,
I like this idea. You can't predict what different things you might like
to measure. So a rotary switch or at least a 2-position toggle switch
gives you a choice.
Of course a voltmeter *is* an ammeter, and vice versa. All voltmeters
are basically a low-voltage movement with a series resistor to set their
scale factor. The same meter can be switched to measure volts or amps.
> I reviewed my collection of ammeter shunts, and I find that I have
> a mixed bag that is only so-so what I think I need... I *think* I
> will be looking at 400A Battery and 600A Motor to have meters that
> will be useful. What do you think?
Keep in mind that a shunt is just a precision resistor. The marked
voltage and current ratings are just an indirect way to tell you its
resistance (volts/amps=ohms) and continuous-duty power rating
(volts*amps=power). So, a 400a 75mv shunt is also an 800a 150mv shunt,
as long as you don't run that current continuously (or provide it with
extra cooling such as a fan).
You can also change the series resistor in the meter to alter its
full-scale value. A 50mv ammeter usually has a series resistor inside
the case the real meter movement will be something lower, like 30mv full
scale. You can reduce this series resistor to make it more sensitive, or
add more series resistance to make it less sensitive. But remember,
you'll have to calibrate it!
> To parallel shunts, what is the best way?
It's hard. Shunts are such low-value resistors that the wire you use to
parallel them can have more resistance than the shunt itself. This would
give you completely random results.
To parallel shunts and maintain accuracy, you have to use very large,
very short bus bars so their resistance is negligible compared to the
shunt itself. To figure out the new scale factor, use Ohm's Law and the
resistance of each shunt.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
