EV Digest 3263
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: GEM charger question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Lee's BMS
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: GEM charger question
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Lee's BMS
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: GEM charger question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) OT?: heaters in the news
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV an' Stuff
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Lee's BMS
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery heater testing
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) 12V Wire?
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Ammeters or amps & Volts - seeking wisdom
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Subaru EV
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 12V Wire?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: 12V Wire?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Lee's BMS
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery heater testing
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Ammeters or amps & Volts - seeking wisdom
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Lee's BMS
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery heater testing
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Interesting measurement tool
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Interesting measurement tool
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Interesting measurement tool
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Interesting measurement tool
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC Christmas Lights
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Lee's BMS
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV an' Stuff
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: GEM charger question
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Then Rich's, I mean, ManzanitaMicro's chargers are less also:
PFC-20 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 4800w $1500
if say 90% efficient, output = 4320w $0.34/watt
PFC-30 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 7200w $2000
if say 90% efficient, output = 6480w $0.31/watt
PFC-50 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 12000w $2500
if say 90% efficient, output = 10800w $0.28/watt
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Roger Stockton
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:42 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: GEM charger question
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
> Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
> Iso of course... Sigh!!
Last I checked the NG1 was an isolated 1000W charger, so about
$0.40/watt (using your pricing), not $1/watt.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> As I get time, I've been updating the design a bit. Nothing big,
>> but it changes the PCB layout. I'm about 75% done with this. So,
>> the first time I get a few days free, I'll finish it up and make
>> an announcement that I'm ordering boards so anyone who wants a set
>> can contact me.
1sclunn wrote:
> Didn't see anybody else post on this hot item? You need 10 min?
It's hundreds of dollars for tooling, then tens of dollars per board. 10
is an arbitrary number that gets the overall cost per board under $50 or
so.
>> Same for parts; I don't mind placing an order for N sets of parts,
>> and sending them out with the boards. But, I don't want to have to
>> buy all the parts out of my wallet, and then sit on them until
>> someone decides to order.
> I don't see why anybody doing this project wouldn't want all the
> parts also at least for the control board, the relays might be
> different, I got them now.
It's a very generic design; almost every part has multiple sources with
different strengths and weaknesses. Human nature being what it is, the
last time everyone wanted something different. One wants speed, one
wants cheap, one wants more memory, one wants to use what he's already
got in his junkbox, etc. It was very time-consuming for me to
micro-manage all this.
> Same for assembling them myself. I just don't have that much time.
> How about time for getting out of the cold for a little Florida
> sun ;-)
Ah, but my wife and son would want to come. And they would have other
ideas about what I should be doing with my time.
> This sounds like a fun project that any EV owner would enjoy. Have
> you thought about putting it in nuts and bolts mag, they use the
> stamp and seem to be looking for things to do with it.
No, I hadn't. I wonder what magazines would be interested in a 'how to'
project like this? Any thoughs, folks?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
> > Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
> > Iso of course... Sigh!!
>
> Last I checked the NG1 was an isolated 1000W charger, so about
> $0.40/watt (using your pricing), not $1/watt.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
I really don't have a clue.
anybody out there have a List price for a NG1??
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee wrote:
"No, I hadn't. I wonder what magazines would be interested in a 'how to'
project like this? Any thoughs, folks?"
--
While not a print magazine, I'd certainly like to post this project to
my website. I've been knocking around the idea of a "Tech Talk" section
that is ideally suited to this and other projects like it.
-Dave Stensland, Owner
Megawatt Motorworks, LLC
Discover the Potential
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Then Rich's, I mean, ManzanitaMicro's chargers are less also:
>
> PFC-20 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 4800w $1500
> if say 90% efficient, output = 4320w $0.34/watt
> PFC-30 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 7200w $2000
> if say 90% efficient, output = 6480w $0.31/watt
> PFC-50 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 12000w $2500
> if say 90% efficient, output = 10800w $0.28/watt
No need to get defensive, Ed ;^>
Rich wrote that the NG1 is about $400 AND $1/watt, which suggests that
it is only a 400W charger. My post was only intended to correct this
mistake, not to comment on the cost/watt of any other charger, including
Manzanita Micro's.
However, if you want to do so, then notice that even with Manzanito
Micro's chargers the $/watt gets worse as the power level decreases: a
50% increase in power (PFC20->PFC30) 'costs' $0.03/watt, so a 50%
decrease in power from the PFC20 gets us to about 2160W and $0.37/watt,
and a further 50% decrease to the Zivan's ~1000W level gets us right
back to the same $0.40/watt as the NG1 (still using Rich's pricing),
even though the NG1 manages to include isolation and microprocessor
control in this cost while the Manzanita Micro products don't. Ask Rich
the $/watt of his PFC chargers including isolation ;^)
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph mentioned heated motorcycle jackets awhile back.
Hot off the press: Delta airline flight from Paris just escorted by fighter
jets because of a woman wearing one of those wire-heated motorcycle
jackets....yet another thing not to bring on carry-on luggage...
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Jan 06, 2004 at 10:28:39AM -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
> So Toyota took the easy way out, and removed the button.
If that's the case, do you suppose all it would take is putting the
button back? How much did they *actually* remove?
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Stensland wrote:
> While not a print magazine, I'd certainly like to post this project to
> my website. I've been knocking around the idea of a "Tech Talk" section
> that is ideally suited to this and other projects like it.
Roger Stockton has also very graciously put it on his website at
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh yes, great data Ralph! So the heaters are about 4 ohms then.
The display shows exactly the info I'm interested in for ongoing
battery monitoring. Good choice.
Your BMS is already packed with features, but one more to consider
would be a warning of exceeding a maximum spread between highest and
lowest individual block voltage. This would be the best indication of
a weak battery since the average voltage moves around with SOC and
amps. Lee Hart's Batt Bridge (2 resistors and a light) can do this on
a coarse level.
I guess while I'm whining I'll beg for something that keeps the
battery heaters off for most of the bulk charge phase to get the most
out the limited wall power. Then the heaters in a perfect world would
kick in as the charger current falls to provide a uniform and
consistent battery temperature for the charger's finish voltage
setting. Maybe your BMS already does this, I confess that I don't
understand some of the lingo...
-GT
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Joe Smalley writes:
> >
> > What is the heater rating in watts? Amps?
>
> 12v AC or DC, 36 watts, 3 amps.
>
>
> > Burrrr. It was in the teens here last night. It warmed up to 27
about 11 PM
> > tonight so I expect snow by morning.
>
> Yep. Today would be a better day for heater testing since it's
barely 20
> outside this morning and snowing and blowing, with freezing rain in
the
> forcast.
>
> Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was in VIP the other day (our local auto parts store), and among the
things I intended to get were 14 gauge wires to hook up my ceramic
heaters. Everything there was labeled with little more information
than "12V wire" and what gauge it was, but the insulation to me
actually looked relatively decent. It had an inner white layer
surrounded by a colored plastic outer layer. My car is 192V which is a
far cry from the 12V the wire says it does, but unless I'm estimating
incorrectly, 192V wouldn't even jump an air gap the width of the
insulation. Is there a good reason this wire is only labeled 12V, or
is it just that the average joe walking into VIP would think "300V" (or
whatever) was the wrong stuff for his stereo? Any educated guesses as
to whether or not it would be safe to use this wire for my heaters at
192V?
Thanks
-Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
<< snip >>
> > I could put in one Voltmeter and one Amp meter, and use switches
> > to switch each meter between the Battery and Motor parameter,
>
> I like this idea. You can't predict what different things you might like
> to measure. So a rotary switch or at least a 2-position toggle switch
> gives you a choice.
Be careful with the rotary switch, I "had" a nice 50mv FS meter with a 0 to
750 scale that I was going to use in a 36 volt system. I wanted to switch
between battery voltage (0 to 75 volts), charge current (0 to 75 amps), and
discharge current (0 to 750 amps). Tested each function separately then
connected it all up with a 2 pole 3 position switch that had been recovered
from some junked equipment. First time I turned the switch the needle
slammed over, bent about 45�, and the meter released all its smoke.
Seems the switch was worn and sloppy enough that one pole switched before
the other allowing full battery voltage to get to the meter.
<< snip >>
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> 14 gauge wires to hook up my ceramic heaters. Everything was labeled
> with little more information than "12V wire" and what gauge it was
You really can't judge wire insulation by its appearance. The insulation
itself needs to be designed to meet some standard, and then
independently tested to verify that it *meets* this standard.
If there is NO marking on the wire, you are probably getting junk (no
matter what you paid for it). Even if the stuff looks great, you may be
getting 'chocolate' insulation (that almost melts in your mouth), soft
insulation with negligible abrasion resistance, or that burns rapidly,
or disolves in any solvent stronger than water, or uses plasticizers
with peanut oil that will be eaten by pests, falls to pieces in
sunlight, or has other problems.
If designed to meet a standard, the wire itself will be so marked.
Typical markings will be UL, CSA, SAE, CE (the agency or organization
that wrote the standard), and then some kind of code to tell you which
standard it meets.
For your heater at 192v, I would strongly recommend wire that is clearly
labelled by UL (or other agency) for 300v or more, and with a
temperature rating 80 deg.C or more. If exposed to outdoor conditions
(water, solvents, sunlight, etc.) then pick a wire also rated for such
use.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ben Apollonio wrote:
> I was in VIP the other day (our local auto parts store), and
> among the things I intended to get were 14 gauge wires to hook
> up my ceramic heaters. Everything there was labeled with little
> more information than "12V wire" and what gauge it was
> Is there a good reason this wire is only labeled 12V, or
> is it just that the average joe walking into VIP would think
> "300V" (or whatever) was the wrong stuff for his stereo?
When you look for wire at an auto parts store, there is typically only 2
flavours "primary" (12V) wire and "high tension" (spark plug) wire.
Forget what the package or display stand says and look at the marking on
the wire's insulation itself. The markings typically include the
insulation type, temperature rating, voltage rating, etc. as well as
regulatory markings (e.g. CSA, or UL, etc.). Typical voltage ratings
are 300V and 600V. If the voltage rating isn't indicated you may be
able to do a web search on the insulation type, etc. and get an idea if
it will do or not.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To me one obvious place to publish would be circut cellar magazine. They
always publish neat projects like yours.
http://www.circuitcellar.com
Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: January 6, 2004 2:10 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Lee's BMS
Dave Stensland wrote:
> While not a print magazine, I'd certainly like to post this project to
> my website. I've been knocking around the idea of a "Tech Talk" section
> that is ideally suited to this and other projects like it.
Roger Stockton has also very graciously put it on his website at
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
acid_lead writes:
>
> Oh yes, great data Ralph! So the heaters are about 4 ohms then.
> The display shows exactly the info I'm interested in for ongoing
> battery monitoring. Good choice.
>
> Your BMS is already packed with features, but one more to consider
> would be a warning of exceeding a maximum spread between highest and
> lowest individual block voltage. This would be the best indication of
> a weak battery since the average voltage moves around with SOC and
> amps. Lee Hart's Batt Bridge (2 resistors and a light) can do this on
> a coarse level.
>
> I guess while I'm whining I'll beg for something that keeps the
> battery heaters off for most of the bulk charge phase to get the most
> out the limited wall power. Then the heaters in a perfect world would
> kick in as the charger current falls to provide a uniform and
> consistent battery temperature for the charger's finish voltage
> setting. Maybe your BMS already does this, I confess that I don't
> understand some of the lingo...
>
> -GT
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Joe Smalley writes:
> > >
> > > What is the heater rating in watts? Amps?
> >
> > 12v AC or DC, 36 watts, 3 amps.
> >
> >
> > > Burrrr. It was in the teens here last night. It warmed up to 27
> about 11 PM
> > > tonight so I expect snow by morning.
> >
> > Yep. Today would be a better day for heater testing since it's
> barely 20
> > outside this morning and snowing and blowing, with freezing rain in
> the
> > forcast.
> >
> > Ralph
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dean Grannes wrote:
> 2. When I had my home PV system installed a few years ago (so
I could
> claim my EVs were running on solar-supplied power), I had a
battery
> backup system installed. The way it is wired (I think I've got
this
> right), all power to the backed-up circuits comes from the
inverter all
> the time, and the inverter is supplied by the grid or by the
battery
> bank if the grid goes down. That means that some circuits in
my house
> (including my bedroom) see AC only from the inverter and not
directly
> from the grid. I don't have an oscilloscope, so don't know
what the
> output looks like, but assume it's relatively clean. It's a
> Xantrex/Trace inverter. The problem is that my digital clocks
gain
> time. One clock started gaining time at a rate of a few
minutes a week,
> then a few minutes a day, and finally was counting 20-second
"minutes".
> I threw that one away. Now its replacement is starting to gain
time, a
> few minutes a week. Is this because of a perhaps
less-than-perfect sine
> wave on my electrical circuit, or is this a common failure mode
for
> digital clocks?
>
> 3. The new 8' fluorescent shop lights in my garage (where I
park my
> electric MGA and my Zappy scooter) have a loud 60Hz hum. It's
> especially noticeable when they're cold. When they warm up,
either they
> get softer or I get accustomed to the noise, as I don't seem to
notice
> it as much. While the "mad scientist lab" sound effects are
kind of
> cool, they can be annoying at times, too, so I'd rather be
without them.
> Is there anything that can be done to make them quieter? I'm
guessing
> it's the ballast and not the bulbs that is making the noise.
Are there
> options other than replacing the fixtures?
Sections 2 and 3 would get me real suspicious that your inverter
is a mod-sine (or what is really a mod-square) version. These
inverters can cause all sorts of glitches for devices that depend
on pure sinewave. Transformers are noisier on mod-square (my
little 6/12V charger is certainly noisier, and doesn't seem to
sense when to turn off very well).
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another option if you like plenty of gauges is to order multiple
gauges in one case. I custom-ordered a gauge from Westach that
had gauges for both battery (400A) and motor amps (500A).
Somewhat pricey - I think it was about $100. Why stop at two
gauges per case? They make 4-gauge cases as well. Yum, lots of
swinging needles in one spot!
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:28 AM
Subject: Ammeters or amps & Volts - seeking wisdom
> Hi all
>
> I have a space in my vehicle dash where the face-level middle
vents aren't
> (since the dash is out of a later model that had them, but I
couldn't use
> the heater from that vehicle).
>
> This space can be opened out to be just right to fit two of the
large (96mm
> square) analogue meters that I have. Since I have two 150 Volt
meters and
> two 75mV current-shunt meters, I have a choice. The options of
items to
> measure are as I see it:
> 1) Battery Volts,
> 2) Motor Volts,
> 3) Battery Amps,
> 4) Motor Amps.
>
> I could put in one Voltmeter and one Amp meter, and use
switches to switch
> each meter between the Battery and Motor parameter, or
>
> I could put in two Amp meters, and a small Voltmeter away to
one side,
> which could later be replaced with an E-meter (or equivalent).
>
> What would be the better option?
>
> And on a related issue, I reviewed my collection of ammeter
shunts, and I
> find that I have a mixed bag that is only so-so what I think I
need
> (keeping in mind that this will only be an around-town errand
vehicle of
> around 2000lb/900kg). I have a 400A 75mV shunt that I *think*
would be
> right for the Battery amps, however the list is as follows:
>
> 400A 75mV (one of, would make the meter 400A full scale [FSD])
> 400A 100mV (two of. one would make the ammeter 300A FSD, the
pair
> paralelled would be 600A)
> 1000A 60mV (one of, 1250A FSD)
> 300A 100mV (one of, 225A FSD)
> 200A 75mV (two of. one would make the ammeter 200A FSD, the
pair paralelled
> would be 400A)
>
> Keeping in mind the low-ish performance spec, at 96 to 144V
[yet to be
> determined] I *think* I will be looking at 400A Battery and
600A Motor to
> have meters that will be useful. What do you think?
>
> So the related issue is paralelling shunts. To paralell shunts,
what is the
> best way?
>
> Thanks
>
> James Massey
>
> '78 Daihatsu cab/chassis 1300kg truck conversion in progress
>
> Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1sclunn wrote:
> > This sounds like a fun project that any EV owner would enjoy.
Have
> > you thought about putting it in nuts and bolts mag, they use
the
> > stamp and seem to be looking for things to do with it.
>
Lee Hart wrote:
> No, I hadn't. I wonder what magazines would be interested in a
'how to'
> project like this? Any thoughs, folks?
Isn't there a Nuts & Volts magazine, or is that what 1sclunn is
referring to? There's probably also a slew of them online, in
addition to print.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> I logged the data using the BMS that Chris Brune and I are
working on.
> The display node logs data once per second, which is too
frequent for
> this test, but that's how it works for now. It was nice to be
able to
> just glance at the BMS display on my desk to check the
temperature of
> the battery out in the garage. I have a picture of the display
node
> online at http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/bms/mainDisplay.html
(this
> photo is not from the temp test run).
Cool on the display node. Something like this has been on my
wish list for quite some time now since I live in an apartment,
and my EV charges down in the carport. The outlet for charging
in the carport extends from one of two or three ciruits that
exist in my kitchen. You probably have a dedicated line for
sending the info. I'm wondering if I could eventually send
information up the same AC line as the charger is running on, or
would there be too much noise? There are these devices (name
escapes me at the moment) that one can route telephone signals
and such over AC lines. I suppose the other option is wireless.
I'd just like to know what's going on with the EV charging
without having to walk downstairs. It would also be nice to have
a mechanism whereby it could signal me if something went wrong
(like smoke - never happened, or someone disconnected the cord -
never happened).
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Now I wonder how it does that... (sense the presense of AC
voltage).
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:56 AM
Subject: Interesting measurement tool
> I just saw this device in a trade magazine, it may
> be usefull for those on the list.
> It's made by B&K Precision Corp.
> http://bkprecision.com/www/NP_Products.asp
> go to search and type in 'senselite'
> It's like a small flashlight, when you point it
> towards a
> socket, switch or wire and there is 40-300Vac present
> a bright red LED will come on.
> $19.95
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck,
I don't know how this device works, I'm guessing
it has some type of hall device that senses magnetic
fluctuation, if nothing is connected and there is no
current I'm not sure?
Maybe somebody with more knowledge could speculate.
Since they are selling it I assume it works?
If it does it's nice indication to check AC present
at a charge port.
Maybe I'll just buy one and see what it does (that
is buy one with company money, not mine!!!)
Rod
--- Chuck Hursch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now I wonder how it does that... (sense the presense
> of AC
> voltage).
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:56 AM
> Subject: Interesting measurement tool
>
>
> > I just saw this device in a trade magazine, it may
> > be usefull for those on the list.
> > It's made by B&K Precision Corp.
> > http://bkprecision.com/www/NP_Products.asp
> > go to search and type in 'senselite'
> > It's like a small flashlight, when you point it
> > towards a
> > socket, switch or wire and there is 40-300Vac
> present
> > a bright red LED will come on.
> > $19.95
>
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--- Begin Message ---
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rod Hower [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: January 6, 2004 4:25 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Interesting measurement tool
>
>
> Chuck,
> I don't know how this device works, I'm guessing
> it has some type of hall device that senses magnetic
> fluctuation, if nothing is connected and there is no current
> I'm not sure? Maybe somebody with more knowledge could
> speculate. Since they are selling it I assume it works? If it
> does it's nice indication to check AC present at a charge
> port. Maybe I'll just buy one and see what it does (that is
> buy one with company money, not mine!!!) Rod
Unless you really need/like the single AA flashlight feature of this
particular tester, save a few bucks and go for this Extech 12VAC-600VAC
model with adjustable sensitivity for $13:
<http://www.electrical-contractor.net/The_Store/EX/DV30.htm>
As far as I know these are nothing particularly new; electrical
contractor friends of mine have been carrying testers like this in their
shirt pockets for at least the last few years (probably longer, but
that's when I recall first noticing their presence).
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> I don't know how this device works, I'm guessing
> it has some type of hall device that senses magnetic
> fluctuation, if nothing is connected and there is no
> current I'm not sure?
There have been some cheap indicators that do this for years, using a
little induction coil. I think some newer ones use hall effect devices.
But both are really detecting magnetic fields, not electric fields.
But there *are* some that truly sense electric fields. Think MOSFET with
a floating gate. If that gate comes near any source of voltage, it will
charge up or charge down, a few electrons at a time, right through the
multi-megohm air resistance.
In fact, I have an old vacuum tube H-P electrometer that can do this,
too. It has a subminiature vacuum tube in its probe, and its twin inside
the instrument. The two tubes form a bridge. It drives the internal
tube's grid until its cathode-plate resistance matches the one in the
probe; then it knows the grid voltages of the two tubes is the same. A
meter indicates the grid voltage of reference tube. You get an extremely
high impedance (but not particularly accurate) voltmeter.
A friend of mine at Fermilab built a similar instrument using MOSFETs.
The MOSFET gate is at the end of a tube. A spinning metal shutter at the
end of this tube alternately exposes the gate to the external electric
field, then the 'reference' field (the voltage of the shutter). The
resulting AC signal is rectified and displayd on a meter. In effect, you
have a non-contact voltmeter that reads in volts per meter. It's really
neat to point it at rain clouds during a thunderstrom; you can see the
voltage building up, then suddenly drop when lightning discharges it.
> Since they are selling it I assume it works?
Yeah, right! :-) Who says something has to work before people will sell
it!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger,
The graph you refer to below shows less current less life? One would think
that more current, the more heat produced, the more molecular migration, the
*less* life. Is there a reason?
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 13:43 PM
Subject: RE: DC Christmas Lights
> Joe Strubhar wrote:
>
> > Minimum life? Or do you mean Average life? There's a BIG
> > difference!
>
> Yes, absolutely there is a big difference between average and minimum!
>
> The graph I referred to
> <http://www.htl.co.jp/pro/kogata/parts/info_007b.gif>, specifically says
> 'DC minimum life'.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
I ran across this in the Yahoo ThunderSky group regarding a BMS. (Jan, if
you are on this list, I presume it's ok to forward this information)
Peri Hartman
------------
From: "Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue Jan 6, 2004 10:35 am
Subject: Re: Digest Number 26
<snip>
So I came up with an idea to do
it that has - to my knowledge - never been done before and I am a
bit reluctant to talk about it yet until I build a prototype later
this week. But it should be easy to build - contain few parts,
require no adjustments, be very efficent, work during charge and
discharge, be modular to allow smaller units to be built and
installed on long battery strings, and work over a wide range of
voltage including SLA battery strings.
--------------------------
I have been kicking around some of the loose ends of the design in
the other groups and getting a better idea as to what it will take to
properly drive some of the circuits more efficiently. Depending upon
the power level desired to balance charge it could be done a couple
of different ways, some more simply than others but a big issue would
be current sensing and cutoff when charging once you/we figure out
how the charging is to be done with these LiIon cells.
Jan
Newport RI
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, 06 January, 2004 13:10
Subject: Re: Lee's BMS
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> As I get time, I've been updating the design a bit. Nothing big,
> >> but it changes the PCB layout. I'm about 75% done with this. So,
> >> the first time I get a few days free, I'll finish it up and make
> >> an announcement that I'm ordering boards so anyone who wants a set
> >> can contact me.
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> > Didn't see anybody else post on this hot item? You need 10 min?
>
> It's hundreds of dollars for tooling, then tens of dollars per board. 10
> is an arbitrary number that gets the overall cost per board under $50 or
> so.
>
> >> Same for parts; I don't mind placing an order for N sets of parts,
> >> and sending them out with the boards. But, I don't want to have to
> >> buy all the parts out of my wallet, and then sit on them until
> >> someone decides to order.
>
> > I don't see why anybody doing this project wouldn't want all the
> > parts also at least for the control board, the relays might be
> > different, I got them now.
>
> It's a very generic design; almost every part has multiple sources with
> different strengths and weaknesses. Human nature being what it is, the
> last time everyone wanted something different. One wants speed, one
> wants cheap, one wants more memory, one wants to use what he's already
> got in his junkbox, etc. It was very time-consuming for me to
> micro-manage all this.
>
> > Same for assembling them myself. I just don't have that much time.
>
> > How about time for getting out of the cold for a little Florida
> > sun ;-)
>
> Ah, but my wife and son would want to come. And they would have other
> ideas about what I should be doing with my time.
>
> > This sounds like a fun project that any EV owner would enjoy. Have
> > you thought about putting it in nuts and bolts mag, they use the
> > stamp and seem to be looking for things to do with it.
>
> No, I hadn't. I wonder what magazines would be interested in a 'how to'
> project like this? Any thoughs, folks?
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:04 AM 01/06/2004 -0500, you wrote:
IMHO they don't want you to see how nice an EV goes! Same reason GM got
rid of, crushed, killed the EV 1's They don't WANT them to catch on and rock
the automotive boat.
That might be true if Toyota had a management change, but they didn't. this
is the same management team that sold the RAV4-EV for years to fleets and
finally started selling it to the public, then just as suddenly - stopped.
As the only major to ever sell an electric car, they seem like an unlikely
candidate to do this on their own, they are
being influenced by someone, someone big.
No; but the EPA is too 'stupid' to understand it :-)
now that I can believe!
"when testing a Prius, make sure the EV-only mode light is off" - wow - now
that's complicated!
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
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Our governator is VERY OPEN to hybrids, and hybrid legislation.
It looks like I'm going to be investigating our Vehicle Code and Health
And Safety laws this year!
Whoo Hoo!
Your pal,
Meat.
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* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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According to
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=158&product_id=1586
the NG1 cost $573 and the charge power is:
Output amps @ voltages:
60 amps @ 12VDC=720
35 amps @ 24VDC=840
25 amps @ 36VDC=900
18 amps @ 48 VDC= 864
12 amps @ 72VDC=864
9 amps @ 96VDC=864
$573 / 864W = $0.66 per watt
Can anyone verify the charger makes rated current during charge or is this
optimistic?
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: RE: GEM charger question
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Then Rich's, I mean, ManzanitaMicro's chargers are less also:
> >
> > PFC-20 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 4800w $1500
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 4320w $0.34/watt
> > PFC-30 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 7200w $2000
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 6480w $0.31/watt
> > PFC-50 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 12000w $2500
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 10800w $0.28/watt
>
> No need to get defensive, Ed ;^>
>
> Rich wrote that the NG1 is about $400 AND $1/watt, which suggests that
> it is only a 400W charger. My post was only intended to correct this
> mistake, not to comment on the cost/watt of any other charger, including
> Manzanita Micro's.
>
> However, if you want to do so, then notice that even with Manzanito
> Micro's chargers the $/watt gets worse as the power level decreases: a
> 50% increase in power (PFC20->PFC30) 'costs' $0.03/watt, so a 50%
> decrease in power from the PFC20 gets us to about 2160W and $0.37/watt,
> and a further 50% decrease to the Zivan's ~1000W level gets us right
> back to the same $0.40/watt as the NG1 (still using Rich's pricing),
> even though the NG1 manages to include isolation and microprocessor
> control in this cost while the Manzanita Micro products don't. Ask Rich
> the $/watt of his PFC chargers including isolation ;^)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Clocks gaining or losing time on an inverter indicates the frequency is not
60 Hz. Some are adjustable. It has nothing to do with the wave shape.
The buzz is caused by transients in the wave shape or loose laminations in
the ballasts. If they all buzz, it is either a design problem in the ballast
or the inverter. My guess is the modified sine wave (AKA square wave with a
stop at the zero crossing) is causing the lights to buzz. To eliminate the
noise, you have to 1) change the inverter to a true sine, 2) gets lights
with a quieter ballast inductor or 3) filter the fast rise times with a line
filter.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
> Dean Grannes wrote:
> > 2. When I had my home PV system installed a few years ago (so
> I could
> > claim my EVs were running on solar-supplied power), I had a
> battery
> > backup system installed. The way it is wired (I think I've got
> this
> > right), all power to the backed-up circuits comes from the
> inverter all
> > the time, and the inverter is supplied by the grid or by the
> battery
> > bank if the grid goes down. That means that some circuits in
> my house
> > (including my bedroom) see AC only from the inverter and not
> directly
> > from the grid. I don't have an oscilloscope, so don't know
> what the
> > output looks like, but assume it's relatively clean. It's a
> > Xantrex/Trace inverter. The problem is that my digital clocks
> gain
> > time. One clock started gaining time at a rate of a few
> minutes a week,
> > then a few minutes a day, and finally was counting 20-second
> "minutes".
> > I threw that one away. Now its replacement is starting to gain
> time, a
> > few minutes a week. Is this because of a perhaps
> less-than-perfect sine
> > wave on my electrical circuit, or is this a common failure mode
> for
> > digital clocks?
> >
> > 3. The new 8' fluorescent shop lights in my garage (where I
> park my
> > electric MGA and my Zappy scooter) have a loud 60Hz hum. It's
> > especially noticeable when they're cold. When they warm up,
> either they
> > get softer or I get accustomed to the noise, as I don't seem to
> notice
> > it as much. While the "mad scientist lab" sound effects are
> kind of
> > cool, they can be annoying at times, too, so I'd rather be
> without them.
> > Is there anything that can be done to make them quieter? I'm
> guessing
> > it's the ballast and not the bulbs that is making the noise.
> Are there
> > options other than replacing the fixtures?
>
> Sections 2 and 3 would get me real suspicious that your inverter
> is a mod-sine (or what is really a mod-square) version. These
> inverters can cause all sorts of glitches for devices that depend
> on pure sinewave. Transformers are noisier on mod-square (my
> little 6/12V charger is certainly noisier, and doesn't seem to
> sense when to turn off very well).
>
> Chuck
>
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
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