EV Digest 3264
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GEMs on SF hills?
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC vs. DC wars: Christmas lights and other electrical oddities
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Ammeters or amps & Volts
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Lee's BMS
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Subaru EV
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: ampabout, bit my tongue
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: GEM charger question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) scooter motor on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV an' Stuff
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Hart BMS
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Battery temps and performance this morning. Wow!
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: GEM charger question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: GEM charger question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence, I would rather not comment on your,
butt know that you are confusing my ride (alone)
with when you and I rode together.
I also drove the GEM and the neighbor on my own, to
feel the ride with one person. That is what I base
off. Not when we rode together.
Brad feels good about the GEM, that's all I needed to
know. Thanks Brad for sharing your GEM experiences.
If the media ever tries to claim teh GEM is an accident
trap, we know who to ask to write them a correction.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, January 6, 2004, at 07:11 PM, meat wrote:
Our governator is VERY OPEN to hybrids, and hybrid legislation.
It looks like I'm going to be investigating our Vehicle Code and
Health And Safety laws this year!
Whoo Hoo!
All right! Do us proud, Meat.
Your pal,
Meat.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> Clocks gaining or losing time on an inverter indicates the frequency
> is not 60 Hz.
Not always. Some microcomputer manufacturers (Microchip comes to mind)
have suggested that you can connect an input pin to the 60 Hz line thru
a large-value resistor. Well, this works... sort of... as long as the 60
Hz is a nice clean sine wave.
But if the 60 Hz source is not a sinewave, or has severe noise pulses,
then your time reference can be considerably off. To some extent, you
can fix this problem with more sophisticated software. For example,
don't just use the signal on that pin to generate an interrupt, because
noise glitches or PWM-based pseudo-sinewave inverters will falsely count
because there is more than one falling edge per cycle.
The more serious problem is that squarewave ("modified sine wave")
inverters can produce serious transients when driving inductive loads.
The above-mentioned cheap simple 60 Hz input circuits have poor
protection against such severe transients. It can survive a transient
once in a while (from a thunderstorm, for example), but continuous,
repetitive transients can destroy the input protection circuitry so that
the micro eventually can't accurately read this input.
> ballasts... If they all buzz, it is either a design problem in the
> ballast or the inverter.
An old-style fluorescent light ballast is nothing but an inductor. With
the right size wire, and right laminations, they are as cool and quiet
as any good transformer. But of course, they keep making them cheaper
and cheaper, skimping on wire size, laminations, potting etc. until now
a fair number of them *do* run hot and buzz. Driving them with a
non-sinusoidal waveform will only make this problem worse.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Andre Blanchard
<< snip >>
Be careful with the rotary switch, I "had" a nice 50mv FS meter with a 0 to
750 scale that I was going to use in a 36 volt system. I wanted to switch
between battery voltage (0 to 75 volts), charge current (0 to 75 amps), and
discharge current (0 to 750 amps). Tested each function separately then
connected it all up with a 2 pole 3 position switch that had been recovered
from some junked equipment. First time I turned the switch the needle
slammed over, bent about 45�, and the meter released all its smoke.
Seems the switch was worn and sloppy enough that one pole switched before
the other allowing full battery voltage to get to the meter.
<< snip >>
It may have been a make-before-break switch. If all the potentials are
similar (eg measuring currents that are all in the B- connected cables) a
low cost break-before-make rotary switch should be OK. However, I want to
avoid bringing pack voltage anywhere near the 12V system (as per Lee's list
below for 12V accessory) and Pack + away from pack -, so I think a
voltmeter and an amp meter switchable between pack and motor parameter with
a toggle or rocker will be the way I'll go.
At 12:59 PM 6/01/04 -0800, Lee Hart wrote:
James Massey wrote:
> The options of items to measure are as I see it:
> 1) Battery Volts,
> 2) Motor Volts,
> 3) Battery Amps,
> 4) Motor Amps.
There may be others. For example:
5. 12v accessory battery voltage
6. 12v accessory battery current
7. Voltage of individual batteries in the propulsion pack,
or of each half of the pack voltage (to detect bad batteries,
fault conditions, or out-of-balance situations).
8. Charging current (separate since it is of the opposite polarity
and typically much smaller than driving current).
All good thoughts. And DC/DC output current. A 'multimeter' set up for the
12V system may be the way I could go.
For the pack batteries I'm reasonably set that I'll put a set of bargraph
voltmeters set up in dot-mode, via optocouplers, up in the dash instrument
cluster (vertically oriented). This will produce a line across that will
show overall pack condition, plus deviations from that line will instantly
show weak batteries.
I could also put a relay in, controlled from the charger that would switch
the pack ammeter to the charge current when that is on (since the car will
be off anyway). Hmmm... yes, I will!!
> I could put in one Voltmeter and one Amp meter, and use switches
> to switch each meter between the Battery and Motor parameter,
I like this idea. You can't predict what different things you might like
to measure. So a rotary switch or at least a 2-position toggle switch
gives you a choice.
<snip>
> I reviewed my collection of ammeter shunts, and I find that I have
> a mixed bag that is only so-so what I think I need... I *think* I
> will be looking at 400A Battery and 600A Motor to have meters that
> will be useful. What do you think?
Keep in mind that a shunt is just a precision resistor. The marked
voltage and current ratings are just an indirect way to tell you its
resistance (volts/amps=ohms) and continuous-duty power rating
(volts*amps=power). So, a 400a 75mv shunt is also an 800a 150mv shunt,
as long as you don't run that current continuously (or provide it with
extra cooling such as a fan).
You can also change the series resistor in the meter to alter its
full-scale value. A 50mv ammeter usually has a series resistor inside
the case the real meter movement will be something lower, like 30mv full
scale. You can reduce this series resistor to make it more sensitive, or
add more series resistance to make it less sensitive. But remember,
you'll have to calibrate it!
As an industrial instrument technician (amongst other things) that's not a
problem. I think I may leave the meters as they are and switch shunts,
manually for battery/motor and auto for charger.
> To parallel shunts, what is the best way?
It's hard. Shunts are such low-value resistors that the wire you use to
parallel them can have more resistance than the shunt itself. This would
give you completely random results.
To parallel shunts and maintain accuracy, you have to use very large,
very short bus bars so their resistance is negligible compared to the
shunt itself. To figure out the new scale factor, use Ohm's Law and the
resistance of each shunt.
Um, I think I'll try to avoid that. I'll try and find another shunt.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
Thanks, Lee. As usual, a few words from the wise makes all the difference.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is also the sort of thing that I hoped the evtech.org wiki would be
used for...
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: RE: Lee's BMS
> Lee wrote:
> "No, I hadn't. I wonder what magazines would be interested in a 'how to'
> project like this? Any thoughs, folks?"
> --
>
> While not a print magazine, I'd certainly like to post this project to
> my website. I've been knocking around the idea of a "Tech Talk" section
> that is ideally suited to this and other projects like it.
>
> -Dave Stensland, Owner
> Megawatt Motorworks, LLC
> Discover the Potential
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It would be great if Subaru brings this model to the US. I liked this part
of the speech by Subaru's President:
Regardless of future HEVs or FCEVs, we believe that what holds the key to
determining success or failure of an environment-friendly car that uses an
electric motor is secondary batteries. We have been involved in research in
this area for a number of years. We put basic cell technology NEC Corp. has
and our battery technology together to establish NEC Lamillion Energy Ltd.,
which develops the next-generation laminated lithium-ion batteries, in the
spring of 2002. This concept car is equipped with a prototype of these
laminated batteries and is being evaluated in the final phase of
development.
If it's true I'd buy one. He hit the nail on the head. Lawrence
Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Dekker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV SJS" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 12:32 PM
Subject: Subaru EV
> Concept car for now
>
> http://www.subaru-global.com/topics/ms/tms2003/r1e.html
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Though I had already planned my day, I awoke to the diesel ICE
warm up from the contractors leaving early in the morning
('got ta warm up da truck be-fo I go').
Groomed and dressed for an interview, I hit Highway 101 going
South with a full charge and a warm pack.
I kept my amps down to 100 which is about 55 mph. Slow enough
for the merging traffic that never looks, and the speeding
lane-changers that cut in front to take the exit.
But this was mid-morning and traffic wasn't that bad. I planned
to do this interview (step 2 of the process), and then hit a
couple of other places before returning. Its good to have a
planned route to minimize wasted travel time and energy.
I took the Montague exit, which loops up around to the top of the
over pass. Intel's Santa Clara 'Big Blue' building is right here.
So, its a mad dash to change three lanes to get the left turn
light.
Interview went well. I had to catch myself from getting too
comfortable and releasing my EV zeal. You know, I might say
something they do not want to hear, like, 'Yes because, I drive
an Electric Car'. I bit my tongue and just said I need to keep my
commute down because of the time and traffic. You can always say
how bad the traffic is and get a confirming nod.
They said there might be an management opening in San Jose. At
first I mentally cringed, but did not show it. Then they said it
would be near the San Jose Civic Center, and I mentally smiled. I
know there is EV charging there. I can put my CA EV charging
sticker to good use.
Even if I had more than double the range (li-ion pack), or
drove an ICE, I still do not like to have long commutes. Traffic
makes 20 miles seems like 50 with an accident around every
corner.
I'm to send my current resume.doc , and they are to 'get back to
me'. But I am not going to 'wait by the phone' like a love-sick
teenager. I am going to continue 'beating the bushes' until an
opening is presented (those bushes are pretty beat-up though).
The next company a couple of blocks away. After cruising their
parking lot to find them, I saw was down to about half my range.
It took a half hour to fill out the same type forms, asking the
same questions, and writing in the same information.
: writer's cramp :
Afterward, I thought I would top off my charge as I might need
the extra range to stop at all the places I had planned.
Just down the street is my favorite private charging location
that lets me tap into 12Kw of power (two 14-50 outlets). With my
PFC-50 pushing 6Kw and my Zivan NG5 pushing 5Kw, I was seeing
about 73 amps going into my 132 V pack at about 150 VDC. Look
quick, the surface voltage rises fast at that current.
Understand why that is one of my favorite charging spots?
I can get those amp hours back twice as fast than with just one
AVCON power source.
With the amp hour meter decrementing rapidly, I settled in for a
half hour snooze, or as best one gets in a busy parking lot
(slamming doors, etc.).
With visions of charging off 3 phase 240 VAC dancing in my head,
(one of my EV fantasies) I awoke to a nearly charged pack. The
NG5 had tapered off a long time ago, but the PFC-50 was still
pushing power as my pack was close to the 170 VDC point.
As I individually unplugged each of the two 10-3 extension cords
from the two 14-50's (one to the PFC-50 and one to the NG5),
returning employees were walking past my EV looking at my
cords.
Their faces were first confused, then curious, and lastly when
they figured it out, they would state, 'Oh look, an Electric car'
(Duh, it says Electric Car all over the vehicle).
This happens with each group that walked by. I suppose they see
the EV charging spots mostly go 'unused' and 'now' they can see
one of those 'Electric things' finally using the spots they can't
(or shouldn't) park in.
My next stop was a bust, door was open but no-one was home to
talk to. This is a bad sign. Perhaps its best not to apply to a
company that does not have their act together.
I decided to segway (not the two wheeled kind) off my plan to hit
to nearby computer stores. I figured I would hit them while I was
down here.
Whoops, looks like the PC technology is changing again. Silicon
Valley is still full of Geek Freaks that will pay top dollar for
the best performance (or a new shiny case). Well, it does not
phase me, I 'gots' no money to spend on computers anyway.
Back on Highway 101 going South, I went the way I came. It now
late afternoon, the clouds have darkened the sky, rain drops are
falling, and the evening traffic has already begun the mad dash
home (which is actually a traffic jam dirge).
My last stop was near the huge Lockheed industrial complex,
adjacent to Moffet Field NAS. Lots-o-Government contract money
being spent around there. The company I was applying to fed off
that money. : Can you smell the Fed money? :
They sounded interested in me, but were not too happy with my
stated limitations of only working in certain cities. Again I did
not tell them about me EV, but just held to my guns about my
requirements.
Yea, if I had an ICE, I could go-anywhere, anytime, but that is
exactly what I 'do not' want to do. While filling out the forms,
I overheard them say 'Yea, so-n-so is quiting. He does not like
the commute from Stockton'. Neither would I. They must be hurting
for people. Hmmm, something is not right if their people are
baling on them.
They sent me off with a thank you and 'We will call you' but also
said I should be prepared to fill out governmental forms (parents
DOB, DOD, City of Birth, etc.). Their clients like people with
secret clearance. I had secret clearance back when I was in the
service (way too long ago).
That company was next to my old hp work place (pre-911 lay-offs).
I left there, taking the city streets, to cruise my old hp
work-site parking lot.
There was no one around. The buildings were empty with big
'For Lease' signs all around. The parking lots are empty,
except for a re-worked 70's muscle car trying to hide in the
back lot.
I passed by the steamed windows that doper's car and parked
in my old EV parking spot. Its surprising that One EV outlet
is still on, since all of the buildings are vacant and
powered off.
Well, enough of the past. I still have half my range, I
enjoyed the pleasure of driving my EV back home.
: Miles of EV Grins :
I pulled in at 80 ahrs down. I turned down my PFC-50 to push
10 amps into my pack off an 120 VAC 20 amp outlet. By
tomorrow morning, I will be charged and ready to do it again.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The original GEM chargers were Saft when I worked on the GEM's with the
motor & control at GE-EV (96-99'). They used an iso 500kHz PC mount
transformer using an ML2818 phase shift modulation control. Just ferrite
clamps around the multilayer circuit board with the windings etched into the
board, no wires. It sounds like that Saft is no longer making chargers for
GEM. - Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:32 PM
Subject: RE: GEM charger question
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Then Rich's, I mean, ManzanitaMicro's chargers are less also:
> >
> > PFC-20 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 4800w $1500
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 4320w $0.34/watt
> > PFC-30 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 7200w $2000
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 6480w $0.31/watt
> > PFC-50 max [EMAIL PROTECTED] = 12000w $2500
> > if say 90% efficient, output = 10800w $0.28/watt
>
> No need to get defensive, Ed ;^>
>
> Rich wrote that the NG1 is about $400 AND $1/watt, which suggests that
> it is only a 400W charger. My post was only intended to correct this
> mistake, not to comment on the cost/watt of any other charger, including
> Manzanita Micro's.
>
> However, if you want to do so, then notice that even with Manzanito
> Micro's chargers the $/watt gets worse as the power level decreases: a
> 50% increase in power (PFC20->PFC30) 'costs' $0.03/watt, so a 50%
> decrease in power from the PFC20 gets us to about 2160W and $0.37/watt,
> and a further 50% decrease to the Zivan's ~1000W level gets us right
> back to the same $0.40/watt as the NG1 (still using Rich's pricing),
> even though the NG1 manages to include isolation and microprocessor
> control in this cost while the Manzanita Micro products don't. Ask Rich
> the $/watt of his PFC chargers including isolation ;^)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was posted on another list, thought
somebody would be interested in a Curry BLDC motor.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586654457
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On a side note, there was a lot of press here in ABQ today
about a visit from Toyota reps to consider funding Fuel
cell research. Sandia labs is here in ABQ, so a lot of
good fuel cell people are here.
They brought along with them a Highlander FCEV.
They were bragging that it is totally zero emissions.
Just water vapor. Pressurized H2 is stored on-board.
The H2 is made by electrolysis from solar power.
Very good PR, to the non-critical thinker.
Nobody mentioned that all that electricity used for
electrolysis of water, and compression of H2 could
have just been put into batteries.
Furthermore, they were saying that it had only
a 300 mile range. Problem is that they want 400,
and storing compressed H2 is still tricky business.
Has the whole world gone insane?
Even Micheal Moore (no great intellectual giant IMOHO,
but his heart is in the right place)
understands this fallacy.
The real problem we face is this whole focus on range.
Frankly, I'm willing to stick to ICE for cross-country treks.
People could be educated. Most of us who have experience
with BEV's are happy with 50 mile usable range.
In fact, I'd guess that most readers of this list would
rather have a performance 30-40 mile range PbA system
than a slow 150 mile range Li-Ion. How hard would it
be to build a higher-performance Li-Ion system?
Either lower internal Z cells, or something more tolerant
of voltage sag.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee:
One place to consider publishing the Hart BMS is in Homepower magazine.
They used ot do a lot more DIY columns on electronics than they do now.
Mike Brown and Shari prange write a good EV column there every month.
Ages ago Otmar published a detailed piece there on the innards of a
Curtis controller and how to make it do regen. Lots of Photovoltaic
systems are now pretty high voltage (like 48v) and I would assume folks
who have plowed thousands into a PV system might like to be able to
balance their batteries. Take a look at www.homepower.com. Each
article has an "access" section which might generate more orders, bring
down the price, etc.
In other news, my Dallas one-wire respin of your design is almost done.
I have the relays clacking away triggered by DS2450 switches but need to
add a precision resistor bridge with which to read voltages and an opto
to turn the Vicor on and off. I shall publish pics and schematics when
its done. Right now I have your original Balancer working on the tired
old Optimas in the front of my car and this one-wire powered scheme
beginning to work on the NiZn's in the rear batt box. Fortunately they
are still very closely balanced. Hopefully I will get around to an
Optima/Evercel swap in the front of the car this winter.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It was a *cold* morning. About 10 degrees F; had been all night. So the pack
was nice and cold. The batteries are rather small (21 lbs each), so they
don't retain heat very well.
The car barely started up. By started I mean the accessory battery (a 26ah
gel cell) was barely able to boot the computer and close the contactors.
True it does run the pumps as well, but it was not happy. Once the
contactors cut in, the DC-DC converter came online and the 12 volt bus was
back to normal.
Resting voltage with a 2amp draw was 337 volts (300volt pack, 2 strings of
25 26ah Hawker Genesis AGMs). However once underway and up the driveway, I
could only draw *60* amps with the pack at 300 volts (12 volts per battery).
Basically I was at the cross-over point (battery at 12 volts at C discharge)
right out of the gate.
There is a *Big* difference in performance between 40 degrees (105amp draw
at 12vpb), 80 degrees (180 amp draw 12vpb), and 10 degrees (60 amp draw at
12vpb). What's the lowest temp that people have taken their batteries and
gotten anywhere near reasonable range/performance? Do these numbers agree
with your experience?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been passing along this discussion to Nancy Hazard, particularly Alan
Shedd's comments on the Tour de Sol and Lee Hart's response ...
> Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2004 12:29:00 -0800
> From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Alan Shedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> CC: EVlist - Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
>
> Hi Alan! Good to hear from you. Welcome to 2004!
>
> > I assisted a team of high school students from Georgia with their
> > entry in the 2003 TdS. As many of you know who have done similar
> > events and worked closely with high school students on ambitious,
> > under-funded, poorly planned EV projects with unrealistic time
> > schedules, it can be a very rewarding, challenging, stressful,
> > frustrating, and fulfilling experience made more surreal by extreme
> > sleep deprivation, incongruous and illogical rules and management.
>
> Boy, that's a excellent 1-paragraph summary!
> :
> :
Nancy asked that I pass this along ...
Nancy Hazard writes ...
I have been following your conversation with interest.
Just to set the record straight, battery swapping is allowed during
the Tour de Sol. There is a prize for BEVs that swap batteries - so
that BEVs that do NOT swap batteries are not directly competing with
them. As for opportunity charging, NESEA has not been able to offer
opportunity charging during the 5-hour range event (we do not have
enough equipment.) If someone wants to demonstrate opportunity
charging during the range event, and has the equipment, I urge them to
send us with a proposal!
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
And I might as well toss my 2-pence into the discussion.
If you look at the Tour de Sol's 15 year(!) history just about everything about
it has evolved. The first event was solar-powered cars only. The teams have
ranged from individuals to corporations. The vehicles have ranged from a
loose-collection-of-parts-assembled-in-the-parking-lot to machines that some of
us would think of as the one thing better than sex! The sportsmanship has
ranged from WINNING-at-any-cost to it-MOVED-under-its-own-power-personal-best.
And the safety record has been achieved through many people working very hard
to balance the desire-to-compete to the very real potential for a-very-bad-day.
The money to make the TdS happen each of those 15 years was not something you
could just mow off the front lawn. The bulk of the year is spent looking for
the sponsors with both the belief in the Tour and the means to help make it
happen.
So the Tour has changed over the years. I would make the argument that it is
not what it was to some extent because it is a victim of its own success. I
watched the idea of ICE/BEV hybrids evolve over the past 10 years at the Tour
and now many of my friends, who would not be able to build them, own them. The
Tour has achieved in part what it set out to do -- change the way we think
about transportation. Now lots of people have run out in front of the parade
yelling "look at what _WE_ did." Ever it has been so. But some of us know
that what they did was often foreshadowed by less boisterous people who helped
set the bar that they had to cross.
So let's hear it for the Tour de Sols, past, present and future, in all their
formats! Let's cheer those (by now) thousands of people who contributed to its
success!
And by all means, if you can possibly participate in May, as sponsor, entrant,
volunteer or attendee, do so!
http://www.TourdeSol.org
--
Mike Bianchi
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Alan Shedd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: EVlist - Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
Hi All;
Snip Snip a bit!
>
> > I assisted a team of high school students from Georgia with their
> > entry in the 2003 TdS. As many of you know who have done similar
> > events and worked closely with high school students on ambitious,
> > under-funded, poorly planned EV projects with unrealistic time
> > schedules, it can be a very rewarding, challenging, stressful,
> > frustrating, and fulfilling experience made more surreal by extreme
> > sleep deprivation, incongruous and illogical rules and management.
>
> Boy, that's a excellent 1-paragraph summary!
>
> To me, I think it is the journey rather than the end results that
> matter. Your kids will remember that experience for the rest of their
> lives. If things had been well-planned, well-funded, and gone smoothly,
> it would have just faded quietly into their memory
> Right on, Lee! I went to many TDS's especially in Waterbury CT an easy
35 mi EV drive from home. It was SO great chatting with the students and
others that were there. No Generater on the front wheel crowd, here!They had
IDEAS! it was SO refreshing, the young minds on the case, of building BEV's
controllers motors, omn and on. I would come away refreshed, all the 'way
brighter minds than I .
>
> This is one aspect of the TdS that appealed to me -- actually being able
> to see the cars in action, touch them, and talk to the participants.
> Kind of the opposite from the usual race or football mentality, where
> the other team is the 'enemy' and viewed with hostility.
> Yes, the guyz sharing parts, tools , ideas. No football mentality.
> > As first-timers, we learned a lot, saw a lot, and realized that in
> > spite of its long history and status as the premier EV / Alt Fuel
> > vehicle competition in the US, the event is not as it seemed.
> > The earky TDS's had a lot of homebrew stuff like the Hopper 3 wheeler,
built by a guy named ...DUH! Hopper. Havent seen him out there anymore. Or
for that matter Solectria's James Worden, with the Sunrise. He set all the
distance records. Done deal, I guess, he didn't figure he had to defend his
title<g>!Hoping Sunrise 2 or 3 would be out to kick A... that year, too!
> > We considered the competitions, the driving events, and technical
> > challenges to be the key aspect of the event. We thought the public
> > displays and car shows were secondary. Some of us thought it odd
> > that GM would be welcomed as a title sponsor and their precious
> > Hy-wire fuel cell car displayed and hyped as the future after the
> > EV-1 recall...
> > Money talks! They coulda showed up with a coal burning , steam car, and
the Media would fall all over them, all the Car Ads on TV we know which side
their bread is buttered.
>
> In contrast, a car show is a 'staged' event. The cars don't move. The
> specs are all marketing hype. There are no objective comparisons. All
> you get are PR people, not technical people. All flash, no substance.
>
> > It is surprising that there is not more national coverage. We did
> > see a lot of reporters and photographers - most are doing local
> > interest pieces on local teams participating, covering the high
> > glitz aspects, or focused on celebrities and politicians.
>
> My guess is that if they make it a 'car show', then it has to compete
> with the likes of the Detroit Auto Show. EXTREME amounts of hype and
> glamour! The TdS can't hope to compete in this arena (and shouldn't
> try)!
>
> The national media is obsessed with violence (if it bleeds, it leads)
> and glamour/personalities (gossip, dirty laundry). I can why the TdS has
> a hard time getting national coverage. Nobody died? No movie stars? No
> scandals? Forget it!
>
> As stupid is this may sound, maybe the TdS should recruit some famous
> personalities, and assign one to each team. Then the media would follow
> them around like dogs, hanging on every word. The actual cars might even
> get shown in the background. :-)
>
> > Last year, the event was centered in Burlington NJ for a couple
> > of days where testing and the range event were held. We drove to
> > Trenton, NJ for a public display and autocross competition retuning
> > to Burlington for charging. The drive to Phili was one-way. There
> > was no charging available there and the next stop was Washington DC.
>
> I still don't understand. EVs can be plugged in anywhere -- you don't
> need to rely on special charging stations. Do they ban opportunity
> charging, or battery pack swaps?
>
> > There were some entries with large solar arrays. On the day of the
> > range event, there was little sun. The drive from Phili to DC was
> > in late afternoon and evening, again in a thunderstorm.
>
> Yes, this is always a risk with solar. The northeast is not a very
> solar-friendly venue.
>
> > During the range and reliability events, charging or battery swapping
> > was not allowed although two years ago, scooters with interchangeable
> > packs were allowed to compete.
>
> A stupid question; what if you do it anyway? I don't mean cheat (do it
> without telling); I mean do it and tell them you did it, and accept
> whatever penalty they apply. Sure, you won't "win", but who cares? The
> whole point is to learn, to have fun, and just to *be* there.
>
> Do you think the kids that built "Helios the Heron" actually expected to
> win? Just building the car, and getting it to finish the race at all was
> victory enough for them!
> Just mentioning their name, nice to see the fond remembrance. The tech
team I'm sure wouldn't let them run today. Sigh!
> > The TdS schedule and the need to show the vehicles in more cities
> > to more people in a shorter time have probably limited BEV entries
> > to being trailered between venues.
>
> This sounds like a travelling car show, not a race.
True
>
It was really never a Race, rather a Tour, to show off hardware, do
distance runs round a track, not on public streets.
> > I wonder if there is enough interest in the more driving-oriented
> > events for practical BEVs. While electric drag racing is fun and
> > showcases EV's unique characteristics, there is some appeal to
> > multi-day long-range rally driving that can illustrate the durability
> > and practical range capability of everyday EVs, not just the
> > high-dollar solar EV racers. What do you think?
> That's why I dragged the Rabbit along to a few, to show off a real loose
change and french fries under the seat daily driver, that almost anybody
could build. That somebody would see that it is possable to have an EV. Like
Seth Murray said; He got his start seeing the TDS in Portland ME as a kid.
If we get ONE other Seth going into EV's as a kid at EVery TDS. Then it was
worth it. I remember the kids asking about the Rabbit, cute, bright kids
that had good questions, as we went along on TDS.
> I think there is an interest, but not to the public at large. It's a
> specialized sport. And that fine; there are *lots* of specialized
> sports.
> Like sailing, horses , railfanning, flying, skiing, whatever turns you
on.
> If the TdS is trying to appeal to the public at large with a range-based
> driving-oriented alternative-fuel-vehicle race, then I think they will
> fail. The public isn't interested, so the media isn't interested.
> Gas pricing will determine the interest, media could give a sh...! We had
an Electrothon in CT, NOTHING in ANY of the local rags!No TCV coverage.
NOTHING!
> So I think they should stick to their roots, and run the race for the
> benefit and encouragement of the participants, and for that fraction of
> the public that *is* interested in such events. They are the TdS's true
> market.
> -- right on, see ya there!
Bob, my two watts worth,...... Seeya in Vegas!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5 Jan 2004 at 21:38, Chris Zach wrote:
> What could make
> your force get 125 wh/mi? That's below an EV1.
OK, I exaggerated a bit. It's more like 150-160 wh/mi. Mind you, that's at
the amp-hour counter, not the wall receptacle. So if from-the-line is what
you want, you probably ought to add 25% or so to my figure.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Open source software has fewer bugs because it admits the possibility
of bugs.
-- Paul Graham
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jan 2004 at 19:11, meat wrote:
> Our governator is VERY OPEN to hybrids, and hybrid legislation.
I suspect that here "hybrids" means the pseudo-hybrids such as Honda Insight
and Toyota Prius. If this be true, the subject and the body of this message
are contradictory.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
Your pal,
Meat.
David Roden wrote:
On 6 Jan 2004 at 19:11, meat wrote:
Our governator is VERY OPEN to hybrids, and hybrid legislation.
I suspect that here "hybrids" means the pseudo-hybrids such as Honda Insight
and Toyota Prius. If this be true, the subject and the body of this message
are contradictory.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Understood. That's still a big improvement over my 250-300wh/mile numbers.
The force and the Prizm are both basically the same car, have similar
weights, I think the Force even uses AGM batteries (mine weighs in at about
1,050lbs). Not sure if you have a transmission; my car is direct-coupled AC.
How do you get that sort of rate?
Chris
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:35 AM
Subject: Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
> On 5 Jan 2004 at 21:38, Chris Zach wrote:
>
> > What could make
> > your force get 125 wh/mi? That's below an EV1.
>
> OK, I exaggerated a bit. It's more like 150-160 wh/mi. Mind you, that's
at
> the amp-hour counter, not the wall receptacle. So if from-the-line is
what
> you want, you probably ought to add 25% or so to my figure.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Open source software has fewer bugs because it admits the possibility
> of bugs.
>
> -- Paul Graham
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> The original GEM chargers were Saft when I worked on the GEM's with
> the motor & control at GE-EV (96-99'). They used an iso 500kHz PC
> mount transformer using an ML2818 phase shift modulation control.
> Just ferrite clamps around the multilayer circuit board with the
> windings etched into the board, no wires.
Yes, that was a cute transformer! They had to leave lots of air around
the PC board for cooling; the traces were running at pretty high current
density.
> It sounds like that Saft is no longer making chargers for GEM.
Right. GEM thought it was too expensive. They had Schott design a
cheaper replacement (and beat on them unmercifully for cost). The Schott
was much cheaper, but still not good enough. So GEM changed to a Zivan
charger; cheaper yet.
Strangely enough, the lower the price, the lower the reliability they
got. GEMs have had lots of problems with this, but still don't seem to
have gotten the message.
The last I heard, GEM expected to pay $0.10 a watt for a charger. That's
a 72v 14amp (1kw) charger for $100. They figured if you can buy a 300w
PC clone power supply for $30, why can't you buy a charger for the same
price. (Never mind the difference in production volume, or the much
tougher environment in a car, or that people expect cars to work for
more than a few years.)
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joe Smalley wrote:
> According to
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=158&pro
> duct_id=1586
> the NG1 cost $573 and the charge power is:
> Output amps @ voltages:
> 60 amps @ 12VDC=720
> 35 amps @ 24VDC=840
> 25 amps @ 36VDC=900
> 18 amps @ 48 VDC= 864
> 12 amps @ 72VDC=864
> 9 amps @ 96VDC=864
>
> $573 / 864W = $0.66 per watt
>
> Can anyone verify the charger makes rated current during
> charge or is this optimistic?
The 72V numbers are realistic. It will, of course, depend on the actual
algorithm in use, but samples I have tested delivered slightly less than
12A but at higher than 72V (as required to charge a 72V pack). For
instance: 11.5A @ 77V = 885.5W. I haven't tested the other voltage
models.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> The graph you refer to below shows less current less life?
Correct.
> One would think that more current, the more heat produced,
> the more molecular migration, the *less* life.
Agreed; I did say it was counter-intuitive!
> Is there a reason?
I'm sure there is, but I don't know what it might be; it isn't my graph!
;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
