EV Digest 3265
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: GEMs on SF hills?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Subaru EV
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: DC Christmas Lights
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC Christmas Lights
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: scooter motor on Ebay
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: scooter motor on Ebay
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery temps and performance this morning. Wow!
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) OEVA meeting cancelled due to weather
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: OEVA meeting cancelled due to weather
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) NY Solectria Force on eBay
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: New Toyota Hybrid SUV
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Lee's BMS
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an
electr
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well... I know when my comments aren't needed. I won't butt in again with
any gems. Lawrence Rhodes.....LOL
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce EVangel Parmenter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:09 PM
Subject: Re: GEMs on SF hills?
> Lawrence, I would rather not comment on your,
> butt know that you are confusing my ride (alone)
> with when you and I rode together.
>
> I also drove the GEM and the neighbor on my own, to
> feel the ride with one person. That is what I base
> off. Not when we rode together.
>
> Brad feels good about the GEM, that's all I needed to
> know. Thanks Brad for sharing your GEM experiences.
>
> If the media ever tries to claim teh GEM is an accident
> trap, we know who to ask to write them a correction.
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Subaru B9 Scrambler is more impressive - a real series hybrid.
At 12:32 PM 01/06/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Concept car for now
http://www.subaru-global.com/topics/ms/tms2003/r1e.html
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jan 2004 at 12:21, Christopher Zach wrote:
> The force and the Prizm are both basically the same car, have similar
> weights, I think the Force even uses AGM batteries (mine weighs in at
> about 1,050lbs).
Not at all. The Force is based on the Geo Metro, a much smaller and lighter
car, which is one reason it uses less energy per mile. Battery mass in a
lead-acid Force was less than 900 lb. Early ones used flooded marine
batteries; later ones used East Penn gels. Solectria did use Hawker
Genesis for a while, but gave them up because they needed high current
charging to maintain capacity.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jan 2004 at 9:14, meat wrote:
> You suspect incorrectly.
I'd be very pleased to be wrong about this. It would be a real step forward
were true hybrids (sometimes called "plug hybrids" or "grid charged hybrids")
developed for the CA market, and promoted with incentives.
Now if we could just get GM to quit crushing EV1s ...
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
The graph you refer to below shows less current less life?
Roger Stockton wrote:
Correct.
One would think that more current, the more heat produced,
the more molecular migration, the *less* life.
Agreed; I did say it was counter-intuitive!
Is there a reason?
I'm sure there is, but I don't know what it might be; it isn't my graph!
You make a bulb take less current by running it at a higher voltage.
Incandescent bulbs act alot like a constant power device around the
voltage range they operate. Increasing voltage makes them brighter
because they also become more efficient.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
> You make a bulb take less current by running it at a higher voltage.
> Incandescent bulbs act alot like a constant power device around the
> voltage range they operate. Increasing voltage makes them brighter
> because they also become more efficient.
Hmmm... not saying that there couldn't be truth to this, however the
graph shows lifetimes vs filament current from 20mA to over 100mA. If
the reduction in filament current was achieved by increasing the voltage
as you suggest, then it would take at least a doubling of the applied
voltage to halve the current (using the assumption that the bulb behaves
more or less as a constant power device).
I can assure you that if you apply 2x the rated voltage to an ordinary
incandescent bulb its filament current will dramatically decrease (to
0!) almost immediately, and its minimum life will at best be measured in
seconds! It most definitely will not be in excess of 1000hrs as
indicated by the graph. ;^>
Reducing the voltage to an incandescent bulb *reduces* the current it
draws. The reduction in current is not as dramatic as for an ordinary
resistor (e.g. halving the voltage will not halve the filament current),
but it is still there. An incandescent bulb behaves like a [poor]
constant current load.
Running a bulb at half its rated voltage will result in a lifetime that
is still measured in hours, and could believably be in the 1000hr
ballpark indicated on the graph.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be a
product.
Your pal,
Meat.
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 7 Jan 2004 at 9:14, meat wrote:
You suspect incorrectly.
I'd be very pleased to be wrong about this. It would be a real step forward
were true hybrids (sometimes called "plug hybrids" or "grid charged hybrids")
developed for the CA market, and promoted with incentives.
Now if we could just get GM to quit crushing EV1s ...
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 2:28 PM -0800 on 01/07/2004, meat wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be a product.
All things being equal, I'd agree whole-heartedly. However, things
are rarely if ever equal. Especially in the cut-throat world of Oil
Company/Auto Company robber barons. As long as they play dirty, we
have to fight back every way we know how. If incentives are what it
takes to get people to try out hybrids and BEVs and prove to
themselves how much better these vehicles are than ICEs, then so be
it.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in
sort of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand
naked women screaming and throwing little pickles
at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
- Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G wrote:
>
> Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> >> The graph you refer to below shows less current less life?
>
> Roger Stockton wrote:
> >Correct.
>
> >> One would think that more current, the more heat produced,
> >> the more molecular migration, the *less* life.
>
> >Agreed; I did say it was counter-intuitive!
>
> >> Is there a reason?
>
> >I'm sure there is, but I don't know what it might be; it isn't my graph!
>
> You make a bulb take less current by running it at a higher voltage.
> Incandescent bulbs act alot like a constant power device around the
> voltage range they operate. Increasing voltage makes them brighter
> because they also become more efficient.
Err, not quite. Increasing the voltage always increases the current.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would this have made a good lawn mower motor?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:26 AM
Subject: scooter motor on Ebay
> This was posted on another list, thought
> somebody would be interested in a Curry BLDC motor.
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586654457
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The more I look into batteries, I start to think pounds of lead is the great
equalizer. Lower voltage requires higher current which resultes in deeper discharges
and shorter life. This effect nearly cancels out the higher capacity.
So far I have limited experiance (only two packs) The first was 18 US8VGC at 64.5 lbs
each = 1161 pounds which took me 12300 miles (10.59 miles per pound). The second pack
was 19 US8VGC-hc at 69 lbs= 1311 each which lasted 14000 miles (10.68 miles per
pound). Not a big differance. Next pack will be T875's (ordered yesterday)... 18 x
63 lbs = 1134 lbs. If I get more than 12,000 out of this pack I will be pleasently
suprised..
Lynn
still running electric, but at 104 Volts until February....
-----Original Message-----
From: vinnybrain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:12 PM
To: Adams, Lynn
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
Hi Lynn,
Thanks for the response. I think that with all thats been
presented here on the list about Orbitals and AGM's their unique
charging requirements, the fact that I'd have to buddy them up, and
their expense kinda put them out of my ballpark... along with SAFT's
and NiMh. I'm just a humble broadcaster man trying to commute down
80, not break the land-speed record----hahaaa.. Most times I've read
peope are trying to get higher accelleration and other
characteristics out of AGM's as opposed to higher range. Lee Hart
made a good point on this in a previous recent post.
I believe I had already stongly considered giving 20x8VGC's a try
over the 13xgrp27s that are already in my metro. I think what may
have be shying me away from them is that the 27's I already own have
a 120ah / 20 hr rating and 8VGC's have only a 145ah rating. That only
seems like a net pack increase of 23.7kw - 18.7kw = 5 kilowatts. Now
looking at the US145 spec I see a 244ah rating and my eyes light up
thinking 'double the amps, double the range.' I could even drop to
120 volts and 20x145's on account of the weight and still come out at
29.2kw -- 10kw more than I have now.
Then theres my other consideration... for only 238lbs more I could
have 26xUS2200's... a 35.1kw pack.
Wich leads me back to my original question.... am I better off
range-wise going for a higher voltage capacity pack, or a higher
current capacity pack.
I'm thinking if my fellow EB-EAA member Wayne Foss can make it
from Vallejo to Alameda on 120 volts of 145's I should be able to
make his distance plus the bay bridge to Bryant st part with the 156
volts of US2200's (5.9Kw more than the 20x145's.)
Any Thoughts? Ideas? I'll even take criticisms...?
Thanks,
Vince Barma
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe I'll try 6 volters next time.
So far my history
18 8VGC = 1161 pound pack gave 10.59 miles per pound
19 8VGC-HC= 1311 pound pack gave 10.67 miles per pound
New pack that I am installing in February:
10 T875 = 1134 pounds (just to compare Trojan's to US8VGC in my application)
Maybe the next one 18 6V T125's to compare 8 V vs 6V?
Lynn
104 volts until February....
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:54 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro
14 batteries (910lbs) is about max for a Metro with stiffer springs and
better brakes. The one I sold had 14 US8VGC's but I got better longevity
from the 6Volters. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:00 AM
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
> On 5 Jan 2004 at 5:28, vinnybrain wrote:
>
> > thats why I put airbag spring
> > inserts in last year.
>
> When you suggest 1700 lb of lead in a Geo Metro, you are talking about a
> severe overload. The battery mass alone is about as much as some years
> weighed in gas trim!
>
> There is more to correcting for that than increasing spring rates or
> inserting air springs. You are creating a vehicle which is apt to have
some
> dangerous and/or unpredictable handling qualities. Ask Bob Rice what it
was
> like driving the EFP Renault R10s with about that much lead in them.
>
> Then there's the issue of durability; doubling the design load will be
> murder on the suspension attachment points and wheel bearings. You will
> also get excessive body flex, which will tend to open up welded joints in
> the body structure.
>
> And then there's brakes. Just wait until you stand on the pedal and try
to
> stop 3000+ lb of Metro with those tiny Metro brakes and tires. And just
> what ARE you going to do about tires with higher load capacity?
>
> Besides, I don't know where you'd put all those batteries in a Metro. You
> sure won't be able to keep them all low in the chassis. This will shift
the
> center of mass upward, causing greater body pitch and lean. I can tell
you
> from experience that driving a car like that is like riding a bike while
> wearing a 35 lb backpack - not very pleasant.
>
> I suppose all of this is correctable, if you have the expertise and money.
> You can weld in body reinforcement if you know where it's needed. You can
> find brakes and tires from some larger car and make them fit. You can
make
> drastic floorpan modifications to find places for the batteries. But why?
>
> It seems to me the practical answers are:
>
> 1. Use a moderate to high voltage single string of Optimas or similar AGMs
> to make this a relatively short-range, quick and fun EV.
>
> 2. Use advanced batteries (NiCd, NiZn, NiMH, possibly LiIon) to get range
> without so much mass.
>
> 3. Choose a vehicle that can handle the mass better than the Metro.
>
> Not to frighten you, but if you do build this car with that much battery
> mass, and without the extensive modification it needs, I suggest that when
> you're done with it you junk it. Not only will the weight have stressed
the
> chassis excessively, selling it to someone as a used EV could leave you
open
> to legal liability if he has a collision.
>
> Good luck!
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50 billion
> Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf: $19 billion
>
> -- Harper's Index, April 2002
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this would have enough power
for a push mower. It would be better for
it's intended purpose, bikes and scooters.
P.S. I just found out this is offered cheaper
($26) at another source.
"Allelectronics has the same motor for less.
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=400200&item=DCM-221&type=store
Mike"
A really good deal!!!!!
Rod
--- Peter Eckhoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would this have made a good lawn mower motor?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:26 AM
> Subject: scooter motor on Ebay
>
>
> > This was posted on another list, thought
> > somebody would be interested in a Curry BLDC
> motor.
> >
> >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586654457
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:28 PM 01/07/2004 -0800, you wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be a product.
Which means if you are not a huge money-rich company, you will never be
able to introduce an innovative new product. No, incentives are needed to
make the playing field a little more even for desirable technologies to begin.
For instance, no tax on Biodiesel fuel.
The EV1 would never have been launched had California & Arizona not had
incentives to offer them, and had CA not backed down, we would still be
building on those early successes today.
An incentive does not have to be money, it could be just carpool lane
access, like Prius owners get in Phoenix AZ.
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be a
product.
You must live in some perfect world or parallel universe. In this world,
incentives, tax breaks, tariffs, subsidies, and other tools are used to
promote whatever industries and products the govt is pushing.
Since they are not likely to stop any of these practices soon, how about
"leveling the playing field" (their favorite term) by promoting
electrics and electric hybrids the same way they support and promote the
fossil fuel industry?
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in this
forum? Does civility cost so much?
I suggest that if meat wants to be rude or generally adversarial, meat
can go visit the scootersoapbox where all such rudeness is both
tolerated and welcomed. Either that or maybe meet can stop hiding behind
a silly pseudonym so that we know exactly who this rude person is.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scootersoapbox
Don't let the name fool you. It is not limited to scooter rants. You can
be as rude as you like on any subject you wish. I'll be in the soapbox
if you want to take me to task for my assertions or otherwise go after
me. I won't however respond to any attacks or snide comments here.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you can fit 18 batteries, why didn't you go with T-105s?
They would have been much cheaper and you probably would have gotten
MORE miles, possibly 20,000 or more (some folks have gotten 30,000+ from
T-105s)
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 16:14, Adams, Lynn wrote:
> The more I look into batteries, I start to think pounds of lead is the great
> equalizer. Lower voltage requires higher current which resultes in deeper
> discharges and shorter life. This effect nearly cancels out the higher capacity.
>
> So far I have limited experiance (only two packs) The first was 18 US8VGC at 64.5
> lbs each = 1161 pounds which took me 12300 miles (10.59 miles per pound). The
> second pack was 19 US8VGC-hc at 69 lbs= 1311 each which lasted 14000 miles (10.68
> miles per pound). Not a big differance. Next pack will be T875's (ordered
> yesterday)... 18 x 63 lbs = 1134 lbs. If I get more than 12,000 out of this pack I
> will be pleasently suprised..
>
> Lynn
>
> still running electric, but at 104 Volts until February....
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: vinnybrain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:12 PM
> To: Adams, Lynn
> Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
>
>
> Hi Lynn,
> Thanks for the response. I think that with all thats been
> presented here on the list about Orbitals and AGM's their unique
> charging requirements, the fact that I'd have to buddy them up, and
> their expense kinda put them out of my ballpark... along with SAFT's
> and NiMh. I'm just a humble broadcaster man trying to commute down
> 80, not break the land-speed record----hahaaa.. Most times I've read
> peope are trying to get higher accelleration and other
> characteristics out of AGM's as opposed to higher range. Lee Hart
> made a good point on this in a previous recent post.
> I believe I had already stongly considered giving 20x8VGC's a try
> over the 13xgrp27s that are already in my metro. I think what may
> have be shying me away from them is that the 27's I already own have
> a 120ah / 20 hr rating and 8VGC's have only a 145ah rating. That only
> seems like a net pack increase of 23.7kw - 18.7kw = 5 kilowatts. Now
> looking at the US145 spec I see a 244ah rating and my eyes light up
> thinking 'double the amps, double the range.' I could even drop to
> 120 volts and 20x145's on account of the weight and still come out at
> 29.2kw -- 10kw more than I have now.
> Then theres my other consideration... for only 238lbs more I could
> have 26xUS2200's... a 35.1kw pack.
> Wich leads me back to my original question.... am I better off
> range-wise going for a higher voltage capacity pack, or a higher
> current capacity pack.
> I'm thinking if my fellow EB-EAA member Wayne Foss can make it
> from Vallejo to Alameda on 120 volts of 145's I should be able to
> make his distance plus the bay bridge to Bryant st part with the 156
> volts of US2200's (5.9Kw more than the 20x145's.)
>
> Any Thoughts? Ideas? I'll even take criticisms...?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Vince Barma
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, my mistake. I think the 95 force was built on the Corolla/Prizm body
core; the 91 was a two door Geo model. Do you have the back seat in a Force?
Yep, the Hawkers love that high current. Technically the 6.6kw
MagneCharger is at the bottom of what it can provide. A PFC50 or a pair
of PFC30's would probably be a better bet.
Looked up your car on EVAlbum. You get 70 miles of range. Wow. :-)
Thank you
Chris
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
On 7 Jan 2004 at 12:21, Christopher Zach wrote:
The force and the Prizm are both basically the same car, have similar
weights, I think the Force even uses AGM batteries (mine weighs in at
about 1,050lbs).
Not at all. The Force is based on the Geo Metro, a much smaller and lighter
car, which is one reason it uses less energy per mile. Battery mass in a
lead-acid Force was less than 900 lb. Early ones used flooded marine
batteries; later ones used East Penn gels. Solectria did use Hawker
Genesis for a while, but gave them up because they needed high current
charging to maintain capacity.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris-
This all sounds normal to me for unheated lead that is not used
frequently. 65F is about as low as I want to go with lead, otherwise
range falls off too hard. I really prefer it above 75F, but that's not
really necessary.
I am really impressed with all the Canadian EVs that work with lead in
the cold weather.
Seth
PS It's supposed to be -10 F tonight up here north of Boston.
On Jan 7, 2004, at 10:13 AM, Christopher Zach wrote:
It was a *cold* morning. About 10 degrees F; had been all night. So
the pack
was nice and cold. The batteries are rather small (21 lbs each), so
they
don't retain heat very well.
The car barely started up. By started I mean the accessory battery (a
26ah
gel cell) was barely able to boot the computer and close the
contactors.
True it does run the pumps as well, but it was not happy. Once the
contactors cut in, the DC-DC converter came online and the 12 volt bus
was
back to normal.
Resting voltage with a 2amp draw was 337 volts (300volt pack, 2
strings of
25 26ah Hawker Genesis AGMs). However once underway and up the
driveway, I
could only draw *60* amps with the pack at 300 volts (12 volts per
battery).
Basically I was at the cross-over point (battery at 12 volts at C
discharge)
right out of the gate.
There is a *Big* difference in performance between 40 degrees (105amp
draw
at 12vpb), 80 degrees (180 amp draw 12vpb), and 10 degrees (60 amp
draw at
12vpb). What's the lowest temp that people have taken their batteries
and
gotten anywhere near reasonable range/performance? Do these numbers
agree
with your experience?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since it is taking longer than everyone expected for the ice to clear out in
Portland and transportation to return to a safe state, we will cancel the
January 8 meeting.
Anyone have an electric snowmobile? ;-)
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gee, Ken, your post was "rude or generally adversarial," so why don't
YOU go post on the scooter list, scooterdude?
You get what you give out. You want to be "rude or generally
adversarial" you're welcome to keep giving it your best shot. I'm very
good at what I do, and what I do requires me to not be politically
correct - which is a lame idea anyways. As Curly said in City Slickers
the secret to life is "one thing." Find one thing and do it better than
anyone else. I'll tell you right now, scooterdude, you can do your best
to be "rude" or "generally adversarial" all you want to, but I'll beat
you at it every single time. Why? Because I do one thing better than
anyone else; I'm not just an a-hole, I'm an INCREDIBLE a-hole. How do
you think I get disparate parties to work together on a bill and get it
pushed through the assembly and the house? By being nice and polite
when people are being idiots? No. You point out that they're idiots
and you move on. Leave them to dwell on it.
So, I leave you to dwell on it.
In the meantime, I've got some EV fueling station bills to write. There
are some hydrogen fuel cell people who want a bill drafted up as well.
You go whine about being nice to people, I've got to go swim with the
sharks so we can get more EVs on the roads. You sit at home with your
panties in a wad, leave the battles to the soldiers. They're not always
nice, they're not always PC, but they're the ones that are protecting
YOUR interests because you choose not to.
Your pal,
Meat.
Ken Trough wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be
a product.
You must live in some perfect world or parallel universe. In this
world, incentives, tax breaks, tariffs, subsidies, and other tools are
used to promote whatever industries and products the govt is pushing.
Since they are not likely to stop any of these practices soon, how
about "leveling the playing field" (their favorite term) by promoting
electrics and electric hybrids the same way they support and promote
the fossil fuel industry?
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in
this forum? Does civility cost so much?
I suggest that if meat wants to be rude or generally adversarial, meat
can go visit the scootersoapbox where all such rudeness is both
tolerated and welcomed. Either that or maybe meet can stop hiding
behind a silly pseudonym so that we know exactly who this rude person is.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scootersoapbox
Don't let the name fool you. It is not limited to scooter rants. You
can be as rude as you like on any subject you wish. I'll be in the
soapbox if you want to take me to task for my assertions or otherwise
go after me. I won't however respond to any attacks or snide comments
here.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I saw a nice hybrid snowmobile at EVS20....
Gadget
--- Gary Graunke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since it is taking longer than everyone expected for
> the ice to clear out in
> Portland and transportation to return to a safe
> state, we will cancel the
> January 8 meeting.
>
> Anyone have an electric snowmobile? ;-)
>
> Gary
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, everyone is allowed an opinion and it appears meat (Meat?) is
concise. I happen to agree with him here if you look at the situation
in terms of total cost, not just vehicle purchase price. And as ICE
emissions controls become more and more costly, purchase prices should
close. In a sense, emissions controls and CAFE requirements subsidize
hybrid and EV development becasue of the increasing cost of ever
tightening regulations.
The USA tends to fund R&D less and make products stand on their
profitability in the near term, which can hinder product introduction,
but can also make sure that products that get to market are well
developed. It looks like after a lot of hard work, Toyota is starting
to have a hybrid vehicle that is profitable enough to exist. Which
means not only that we get a cleaner car, but more mature and less
costly EV related technology. I think that at least part of the reason
why it is around is that Toyota at a strategic level understands what
the costs of fuel and further emissions reduction will cost them and
they are being proactive.
Do I think that current US legislation/taxation captures the true cost
of driving an ICE in terms of environmental impact and valuation of a
limited resource? No. And this is where I might disagree with meat
(Meat?) becasue I don't think there is enough cost involved with
driving. So in a sense Toyota has gone beyone what I think is a
reasonable leg to stand on and actually made a profitable hybrid
despite the low cost of fuel and the small penalty we pay for
environmental impact *in my opinion*.
Do I think that we should subsidize more? Sometimes. But I also see
what happens when the people who get the money for R&D from the
government becasue they have lots of lobbyists and no beneficial
technology and then fail to deliver and then blame it on the
technology, not their own mismanagement. I think lots of this is going
on right now with the fuel cell craze right now. (Not that I see it as
being viable in the near or mid term...)
I think that *if* fuel and clean air become valued more highly in the
future, then more hybrids and eventually EVs will find their way to
market naturally without subsidization in the classic sense. And they
will be put to use where they make most economic and practical sense.
Seth Allen
On Jan 7, 2004, at 8:22 PM, Ken Trough wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be
a product.
You must live in some perfect world or parallel universe. In this
world, incentives, tax breaks, tariffs, subsidies, and other tools are
used to promote whatever industries and products the govt is pushing.
Since they are not likely to stop any of these practices soon, how
about "leveling the playing field" (their favorite term) by promoting
electrics and electric hybrids the same way they support and promote
the fossil fuel industry?
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in
this forum? Does civility cost so much?
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is a 1998 Solectria/Geo Force located in New York on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452936339
Batteries are described as "new" but also as 4 years old with 2500 miles
on them. Current bid of $3,000 does not meet the reserve which is
probably closer to the 'buy it know' price of $10,000.
Note: I have no connection to this. All I know about it is what it says.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Adams, Lynn wrote:
> The more I look into batteries, I start to think pounds of lead is
> the great equalizer.
That is exactly right. For range, all that matters is pounds of lead. It
doesn't matter if they are wired for high voltage / low current or vice
versa. A given weight of batteries stores a given amount of energy no
matter how they are wired.
But, you were also comparing total range over the pack's life. This also
related to pounds of lead, but not so directly. As it happens, all your
examples were the same type of battery; 8v floodeds. So more weight =
longer battery life, because you were using less of the battery's
capacity on each cycle.
But if you change the type of battery, this relationship would also
change. 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
it's changes in the way the battery is built).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
> turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
> it's changes in the way the battery is built).
<dipstick question>
the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates (I
presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer time? a
matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
</dipstick question>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The emissions testers and regulators were probably spooked about
the "EV" button. They didn't know how to test a car with an EV button.
Should have called it a "Force Lower SOC" button instead.
L8r
Ryan
PS. Strike it up to unreasonable US regulations
that can't cope with a simple new button.
PPS. Here's hoping that they simply removed the physical button,
making it possible to simply add your own. Someone said that
they have added the button to their US Prius, but no details.
Brad Waddell wrote:
At 07:03 PM 01/05/2004 -0800, you wrote:
I just hope to see the EV-Button in the Prius next year.
That EV button really ticks me off - why would they have an EV only mode
button built-in to the car, and have it available in europe and asia,
but specifically remove the button in the USA only?? Are we too stupid
to understand a button?
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As I get time, I've been updating the design a bit. Nothing big, but it
changes the PCB layout. I'm about 75% done with this. So, the first time
I get a few days free, I'll finish it up and make an announcement that
I'm ordering boards so anyone who wants a set can contact me.
This is interesting. How much would the full set to build a BMS run?
Say, for 15 YellowTops.
speaking of Hood ornaments , we are having the contest again , I'd like to
change some of the rules , like it doesn't have to be wind powered or make
power, open it up a little , 9-11-04 will be the dead line to send entries,
www.grassrootsev.com The prize will be a EVTV cd , as nobody wants Lee's
money. ( I think your money scared everybody away last year) . You never
said which one you liked best.
Steve Clunn
As for myself, I didn't enter because I couldn't find the contest
details on the quoted website.
Judebert
EVirgin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris and all,
As far as I know, the Force has always been made from the Geo Metro/Pontiac
Firefly/Suzuki Swift body, (actually built by Suzuki). The early ones were
based on the hatchback, later ones were all four door sedans. Solectria
did a very slick job of it, the sedans retained both the back seat and most
of the trunk. The hatchbacks did have a large battery box in the rear.
Keep in mind the Geo "brand" was just a grouping for sales purposes. The
various models were in no way related. The Geo Metro was a Suzuki product,
the Geo Prism was a rebadged Toyota Corolla, the Geo Storm was an Isuzu,
and the Geo Tracker was also a Suzuki.
I suspect the Metro is an unusually aerodynamic car for that price class
and Solectria capitalized on that. They also used top of the line
components, low rolling resistance tires, partial belly pans, all aluminum
brackets and battery boxes, kept the weight low, and they also kept the
peak power output quite modest. Solectrias aren't rockets, just very
efficient cars. (Except maybe the Force GTs which were much more sprightly,
dual motors and dual controllers)
I do think they might have sold more Forces if they had based them on
Corolla/Prisms. The size of the Metro may have been just to small for some
folks to accept.
If you ever get a chance to ride in or drive a Force, go for it. They
really are impressive in a very very understated way.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 7 Jan 2004 at 20:34, Chris Zach wrote:
> Ah, my mistake. I think the 95 force was built on the Corolla/Prizm body
> core; the 91 was a two door Geo model.
I'm afraid you've been misinformed. The Force was never built on the
Corolla/Prizm platform. It was always a Geo Metro conversion, from the first
one sold in 1991 - which I happen to own. The earlier ones used 2-door
hatchback bodies, and the later ones (in response to client requests, I
believe) used Metro 4-door sedan bodies. Sorry, no Prizms.
There were some other folks converting Geos. In the mid-90s, BAT, though
mainly a news release factory, built a few Metro conversions with DC motors.
US Electricar (Mark II ;-) converted Prizms, such as yours.
There was also another company that carried out Prizm conversions, with DC
motors, but I don't remember the name. Ralph Merwin has one, I think.
Maybe they're the ones you're thinking of.
> Do you have the back seat in a Force?
Most of them did. A few lost the back seat. The strangest ones were a few
early NiMH cars which did away with ^half^ the back seat. I think they did
this to make it a 3-passenger car, to keep the vehicle within GVWR.
David
--- End Message ---
