EV Digest 3266
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV digest 3264
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: scooter motor on Ebay
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) re: more public chargers
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Build Your Own EV Charging Station?
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: BEVs at the 2004 Tour de Sol
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Lee's BMS
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV business
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: 76mph in Prius Stealth mode. Maybe the new Prius is an electr
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: [Oeva-list] OEVA meeting cancelled due to weather
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: High Voltage or High Current, Metro 8v vs 6v, now range-trailer?
by "Vince Barma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: scooter motor on Ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV business
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) force efficiency
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: NY Solectria Force on eBay
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Tour de Sol update
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) NEDRA Digital Video and Photos Needed
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Force Efficiency
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
24) interactive forum
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Prius EV Switch
by "Neil Gover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Build Your Own EV Charging Station?Nostalgia trip!
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
>>>
>>> Subject:
>>> Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
>>> From:
>>> meat
>>> Date:
>>> Wed, 07 Jan 2004 09:14:34 -0800
>>> To:
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>>
>>>
>>> You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
>>>
>>> Your pal,
>>> Meat.
Say, Meat, I'm thinking about the "Hydrogen Highway" business. Seems to
me (and my wife, who actually came up with the idea) that we need an
"Electric Parking" law instead (or in addition). Basically, we want any
large parking lot to have some electric charging spaces. Could be pay,
could be free, must be there. In exchange for providing the charging,
we'd expect business owners to be exempt from any lawsuit involving the
chargers. (Of course chargers would have to be built to spec, with GFCI
circuits, and maintained.)
I've been imagining the PowerPoint slides for a while: "proven
technology", "truly emission free", "doubles useful range of vehicle",
"safe, fast, and cheap: choose all three". Care to share ideas? I'm in
Florida, and heaven knows what Jeb will think, but if he knows the
Governator is seeing the same thing, maybe he'll give it an extra look.
Judebert
EVirgin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 4:40 PM
Subject: Re: scooter motor on Ebay
> I don't think this would have enough power
> for a push mower. It would be better for
> it's intended purpose, bikes and scooters.
> P.S. I just found out this is offered cheaper
> ($26) at another source.
> "Allelectronics has the same motor for less.
>
>
http://www.allelectronics.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=400200&item=DCM-221&type=store
Rod or anyone with Curry exp, are these reversable? Might be nice to couple
2 nose to nose like an EV Warrior setup and have more power for an E-bike
and a better built motor with built in speed control. Might cure the
overheating problem the Curries had too. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> large parking lot to have some electric charging spaces. Could be pay,
> could be free, must be there. In exchange for providing the charging,
> we'd expect business owners to be exempt from any lawsuit involving the
> chargers. (Of course chargers would have to be built to spec, with GFCI
> circuits, and maintained.)
perhaps reasonable tax breaks for public chargers that are regularly
certified as maintained to spec, as long-term incentive... based partially
on how many kWs served, to provide a further incentive to promote the use of
the chargers?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electrons move at the same speed regardless of Voltage.
Also, as I understand it, 6V and 8V batteries have exactly the same
thickness and number of plates. The difference is how many plates per
cell.
Now for the bad news, I don't know why the 6V batteries last longer.
For a given number of batteries the 6V will have less voltage than the
8V so they will see higher current. It seems to me that the current per
plate will be about the same.
Perhaps it has something to do with fewer interconnects with more plates
per interconnect and therefor less resistance. Less voltage sag, even
with the higher current, means lower losses.
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 21:18, Sam Uzi wrote:
> > 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
> > turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
> > it's changes in the way the battery is built).
>
> <dipstick question>
>
> the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates (I
> presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer time? a
> matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
>
>
> </dipstick question>
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
Has anyone ever looked into putting in your own EV charging station in a
public access parking lot? I was thinking maybe something like working
with the local power company and installing a meter, drop, and box on an
existing pole adjacent to a friendly parking lot. Assuming one could get
permission from the owner of the parking lot, what other hurdles would be
involved? Obviously an electrician would have to install the equipment and
of course there would be fees from the city for permits and from the power
company, plus the cost of the equipment itself, but would this really add
up to all that much?
Anyone done this?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
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--- Begin Message ---
Nancy Hazard writes [as forwarded by Mike Bianchi]:
> I have been following your conversation with interest.
> Just to set the record straight, battery swapping is allowed during
> the Tour de Sol. There is a prize for BEVs that swap batteries - so
> that BEVs that do NOT swap batteries are not directly competing with
> them.
>
> As for opportunity charging, NESEA has not been able to offer
> opportunity charging during the 5-hour range event (we do not have
> enough equipment). If someone wants to demonstrate opportunity
> charging during the range event, and has the equipment, I urge them
> to send us with a proposal!
That sounds great. So a BEV *could* make the long hauls without being a
trailer-queen!
Battery-swapping would require having a second pack, and a way to get it
to the spot where the team would make the swap. Obviously, the EV would
need to be built so battery-swapping is relatively painless.
To me, opportunity charging just means charging from whatever AC outlet
is available. Most likely, just a plain old 120vac 15amp receptacle.
Stop at MacWendyKing for lunch, plug in while you eat, and drive on.
Clearly, the EV should have instrumentation to tell how much power was
put in, but that could be as simple as an E-meter.
> And I might as well toss my 2-pence into the discussion...
> So the Tour has changed over the years. I would make the argument
> that... it is a victim of its own success. I watched the idea of
> ICE/BEV hybrids evolve over the past 10 years at the Tour and now
> many of my friends, who would not be able to build them, own them.
> The Tour has achieved in part what it set out to do -- change the
> way we think about transportation... So let's hear it for the Tour
> de Sols, past, present and future, in all their formats!
Yes! Three cheers for the TdS! It's always been an inspiration to me,
and I'm sure to countless others.
It's great to hear from Nancy Hazard, who's been with the TdS for so
long and has done such great work. So since we have your ear Nancy, what
is your opinion on the TdS for the future? What are the goals for this
year's race, and how do you see these goals being accomplished? Why
should folks come, and what expectations should they have?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> 1sclunn wrote:
> > > This sounds like a fun project that any EV owner would enjoy.
> Have
> > > you thought about putting it in nuts and bolts mag, they use
> the
> > > stamp and seem to be looking for things to do with it.
> >
> Isn't there a Nuts & Volts magazine, or is that what 1sclunn is
> referring to? There's probably also a slew of them online, in
> addition to print.
>
> Chuck
I hate it when that happens , "did I write that ? " Yes that's Nuts & Volts
Steve Clunn ( the one who hits send instead of proof reads)
> Chuck Hursch
> Larkspur, CA
> NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
> http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
> http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
>
>And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in this
>forum? Does civility cost so much?
>
>I suggest that if meat wants to be rude or generally adversarial, meat
>can go visit the scootersoapbox where all such rudeness is both
>tolerated and welcomed. Either that or maybe meet can stop hiding behind
>a silly pseudonym so that we know exactly who this rude person is.
>
>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scootersoapbox
>
>Don't let the name fool you. It is not limited to scooter rants. You can
>be as rude as you like on any subject you wish. I'll be in the soapbox
>if you want to take me to task for my assertions or otherwise go after
>me. I won't however respond to any attacks or snide comments here.
Best not to get started with who's being civil and who's not. Personally, I'd
rather leave out any hybrid that runs solely on gasoline and stick to
discussing BEVs and hybrids that can be charged from other sources.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"David Roden (Akron OH USA)" writes:
>
> There was also another company that carried out Prizm conversions, with DC
> motors, but I don't remember the name. Ralph Merwin has one, I think.
> Maybe they're the ones you're thinking of.
My Prizm was, as far as I know, the only conversion done by Drive Electric
in Sacramento, California. They used a 9" ADC motor, a Curtis controller
and Trojan batteries.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meat,
Could you tell us more about the bills you are working on?
Marc
On Jan 7, 2004, at 6:10 PM, meat wrote:
Gee, Ken, your post was "rude or generally adversarial," so why don't
YOU go post on the scooter list, scooterdude?
You get what you give out. You want to be "rude or generally
adversarial" you're welcome to keep giving it your best shot. I'm
very good at what I do, and what I do requires me to not be
politically correct - which is a lame idea anyways. As Curly said in
City Slickers the secret to life is "one thing." Find one thing and
do it better than anyone else. I'll tell you right now, scooterdude,
you can do your best to be "rude" or "generally adversarial" all you
want to, but I'll beat you at it every single time. Why? Because I
do one thing better than anyone else; I'm not just an a-hole, I'm an
INCREDIBLE a-hole. How do you think I get disparate parties to work
together on a bill and get it pushed through the assembly and the
house? By being nice and polite when people are being idiots? No.
You point out that they're idiots and you move on. Leave them to
dwell on it.
So, I leave you to dwell on it.
In the meantime, I've got some EV fueling station bills to write.
There are some hydrogen fuel cell people who want a bill drafted up as
well. You go whine about being nice to people, I've got to go swim
with the sharks so we can get more EVs on the roads. You sit at home
with your panties in a wad, leave the battles to the soldiers.
They're not always nice, they're not always PC, but they're the ones
that are protecting YOUR interests because you choose not to.
Your pal,
Meat.
Ken Trough wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be
a product.
You must live in some perfect world or parallel universe. In this
world, incentives, tax breaks, tariffs, subsidies, and other tools
are used to promote whatever industries and products the govt is
pushing.
Since they are not likely to stop any of these practices soon, how
about "leveling the playing field" (their favorite term) by promoting
electrics and electric hybrids the same way they support and promote
the fossil fuel industry?
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in
this forum? Does civility cost so much?
I suggest that if meat wants to be rude or generally adversarial,
meat can go visit the scootersoapbox where all such rudeness is both
tolerated and welcomed. Either that or maybe meet can stop hiding
behind a silly pseudonym so that we know exactly who this rude person
is.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scootersoapbox
Don't let the name fool you. It is not limited to scooter rants. You
can be as rude as you like on any subject you wish. I'll be in the
soapbox if you want to take me to task for my assertions or otherwise
go after me. I won't however respond to any attacks or snide comments
here.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
I concur. I will be one of the most conservative drivers out
there. Like, close to the last to get back on the roads. Just
not worth the trouble and risk.
Maybe it'll get good, but let's not push it.
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>--- Original Message ---
>Since it is taking longer than everyone expected for the ice
to clear out in
>Portland and transportation to return to a safe state, we will
cancel the
>January 8 meeting.
>
>Anyone have an electric snowmobile? ;-)
>
>Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks much for the responses!
It seems my whole question still boils down to one thing... I've gotta have the
weight in lead to get the miles. Whether I slice it as 20x145's or 26xT105's, lead is
lead and the more of it I have the farther I will go.
On another response David Roden brought up a good range-extending battery trailer
idea, and thats an intereresting proposition, considering I put a hitch on this Metro
while I was building the rear battery box. Range trailers have been hashed over
several times here in the 3 years I've been reading this list so I don't wanna bore
everyone with the whole generator ordeals and how noisy they are and how beautiful
ACP's ten-thousand dollar one is. I've got a 7.5kw generac thats just plain too noisy
for emergency use at the house, let alone on a mobile trailer, another idea gone awry!
Battery trailers-- I don't seem to remember them getting as much press or mention.
Here's my question(s) should I decide to do a battery trailer:
Given that I already have 13x27TMX's in the car already situated, what battery and
pack size would I go with for the trailer? (small trailers have a 1000lb max capacity)
Same as the car? Or, if I went with higher current capacity 105's or 145's how could
the mismatch in current capacities from the trailer to the car be dealt with? I have
visions of going to plug a big 350 amp Anderson together at the trailer hitch and BIG
sparks flying as the trailer pack dumps LOTS of amps into the car pack to gain
equilibrium. Then theres the charging considerations-- would I charge both packs
simultaneously off the same charger, or would separate chargers just help create the
same problem of imbalance I referred to already?
Other people have run battery trailers, anyone got any suggestions?
Thanks for listening!
Vince Barma
-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Hart [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wed 1/7/2004 8:51 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current
Adams, Lynn wrote:
> The more I look into batteries, I start to think pounds of lead is
> the great equalizer.
That is exactly right. For range, all that matters is pounds of lead. It
doesn't matter if they are wired for high voltage / low current or vice
versa. A given weight of batteries stores a given amount of energy no
matter how they are wired.
But, you were also comparing total range over the pack's life. This also
related to pounds of lead, but not so directly. As it happens, all your
examples were the same type of battery; 8v floodeds. So more weight =
longer battery life, because you were using less of the battery's
capacity on each cycle.
But if you change the type of battery, this relationship would also
change. 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
it's changes in the way the battery is built).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes just like seatbelts, cat converters & crush zones.....Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "meat" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 2:28 PM
Subject: Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
> "Promoted with incentives."
>
> Yeah. About that...
>
> If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't be a
> product.
>
> Your pal,
> Meat.
>
>
>
>
>
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> >On 7 Jan 2004 at 9:14, meat wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>You suspect incorrectly.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I'd be very pleased to be wrong about this. It would be a real step
forward
> >were true hybrids (sometimes called "plug hybrids" or "grid charged
hybrids")
> >developed for the CA market, and promoted with incentives.
> >
> >Now if we could just get GM to quit crushing EV1s ...
> >
> >David
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe a weed wacker. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:02 PM
Subject: Re: scooter motor on Ebay
> Would this have made a good lawn mower motor?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 8:26 AM
> Subject: scooter motor on Ebay
>
>
> > This was posted on another list, thought
> > somebody would be interested in a Curry BLDC motor.
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2586654457
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> In the meantime, I've got some EV fueling station bills to write. There
> are some hydrogen fuel cell people who want a bill drafted up as well.
> You go whine about being nice to people, I've got to go swim with the
> sharks so we can get more EVs on the roads. You sit at home with your
> panties in a wad, leave the battles to the soldiers. They're not always
> nice, they're not always PC, but they're the ones that are protecting
> YOUR interests because you choose not to.
>
> Your pal,
> Meat.
Has anyone told these hydrogen guys it's going to cost a lot to run on
hydrogen. When people find out it's going to cost 2 to 8 times as much as
gas(this is only a guess) do you think anyone will use it? Lawrence
Rhodes...If you are writing bills I hope you take this into
account...............
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Best not to get started with who's being civil and who's not.
Personally, I'd rather leave out any hybrid that runs solely on
gasoline and stick to discussing BEVs and hybrids that can be charged
from other sources.
I was equating the lack of civility with the general tone and snideness
of the poster, not the content nor subject matter. I just believe that
there is a time and place to be rude and confrontational, and that the
EVDL is not even close to it.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:25 PM 01/07/2004 -0800, you wrote:
Has anyone told these hydrogen guys it's going to cost a lot to run on
hydrogen. When people find out it's going to cost 2 to 8 times as much as
gas(this is only a guess) do you think anyone will use it? Lawrence
Rhodes...If you are writing bills I hope you take this into
account...............
That's what subsidies are for!
brad
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
On 5 Jan 2004 at 21:38, Chris Zach wrote:
What could make
your force get 125 wh/mi? That's below an EV1.
I'd think that a force should be well below EV1.
Much lower power limits. Much smaller battery packs (less weight).
Were the forces that won range contests pretty close to
standard forces with hi-tech battery packs?
I think that Solectria was always designing toward efficiency,
where EV1 needed performance more than efficiency.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
There is a 1998 Solectria/Geo Force located in New York on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452936339
Batteries are described as "new" but also as 4 years old with 2500 miles
on them. Current bid of $3,000 does not meet the reserve which is
probably closer to the 'buy it know' price of $10,000.
this car was posted a few weeks ago. Reserve was not met at $5200
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About 6V vs 8 volt battery life, here's a post by Nawaz ( of US Batteries)
from 2000:
*Hi:
*I have not cycle life tested our US8VGC, but I expect these to deliver
similar
*number of cycles as the US2200, since the 8 VOlt product is made from the
same
*plates as the US2200. The 8 Volt battery has 15 plates per cell and the
US2200
*has 19 of the same plates per cell. The DOD for the 8 Volt battery would be
same
*at 56 Ampere current draw as it is for the US2200 at the 75 Ampere draw. At
75
*Ampere draw the 8 Volt will give even more cycles since now the DOD is
*shallower.
*Sincerely
*Nawaz Qureshi
So, since the plates are the same, it does seem like the cycle life ( given
the same number of batteries and the same power draw) should be the same for
the US8VGC's and the US2200's. (actually, the 8 volters should have a
slight edge, with more total plates : 120 vs 116). I also think that the
interconnect resistance (external to the batteries) should favor the 8
volters - less current at the same power- so less power loss ( by the square
of the current) in the cables, contactors, etc. The internal battery
resistance should be a wash.
My (very un-educated ) guess as to why 8 volters seem to have shorter cycle
lives ( does anyone have hard data?) is that, with the higher voltage
available with 8-volters, it would be hard not to use more power than with
the same number of 6 volters and a lower pack voltage. In other words, the
max power limitation of a lower voltage system ( using 6 volters) might make
the batteries last longer. Even occasional high current draws from the 8
volters would do them in faster than the 6 volters.
Based on this thinking, I still plan to use US8VGC's in my Echo conversion (
still looking for a donor, though; I'm working on the charger now). The
tough part may be limiting current draw to maintain battery life ( maybe a
warning buzzer that comes on at 250 battery amps?)
Phil Marino
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current
Date: 07 Jan 2004 21:49:30 -0700
Electrons move at the same speed regardless of Voltage.
Also, as I understand it, 6V and 8V batteries have exactly the same
thickness and number of plates. The difference is how many plates per
cell.
Now for the bad news, I don't know why the 6V batteries last longer.
For a given number of batteries the 6V will have less voltage than the
8V so they will see higher current. It seems to me that the current per
plate will be about the same.
Perhaps it has something to do with fewer interconnects with more plates
per interconnect and therefor less resistance. Less voltage sag, even
with the higher current, means lower losses.
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 21:18, Sam Uzi wrote:
> > 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
> > turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
> > it's changes in the way the battery is built).
>
> <dipstick question>
>
> the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates (I
> presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer time? a
> matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
>
>
> </dipstick question>
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
_________________________________________________________________
Check your PC for viruses with the FREE McAfee online computer scan.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From Nancy Hazard at NESEA ...
The Great American Green Transportation Festival
May 21-25, 2004
Over the past week, six teams have entered the Tour de Sol, and one team is
already in the news!
http://www.benningtonbanner.com/Stories/0,1413,104~8676~1840620,00.html
Several people have called and asked about exactly what the competition will
look like this year. If you are a student or individual team, the competition
will look very similar to last year, except we have added one additional
reliability run, so if you would like to enter a battery EV, or any other type
of alternative fueled vehicle, don't be shy! We expect very lively competition
at the Tour de Sol next May. To encourage student entries, we have added new
awards for student teams!
We are still working out the details of the scheduling of the competitive
events, but following is a rundown of our plans to date.
While the Tour is in Westchester County, all vehicles will earn points for
technical testing and numerous events:
Acceleration short and/or long acceleration
Handling cone test + Autocross event (likely at Westchester)
Reliability a 40-50 mile loop which will start and end at the
Westchester site
There will be two additional reliability runs - one from Westchester to the
overnight location, and one from the overnight location to the event in the
Philadelphia media market, likely Trenton NJ.
Range: A range event will be held on Sunday and be connected with the
reliability run from Westchester County to our overnight stop.
Efficiency: Efficiency score will be based on recharging and refueling data
collected after each reliability and/or range events.
Greenhouse gas emissions are calculated from efficiency data collected above.
The final run from the event in the Philadelphia media market to Washington, DC
will not be scored for any vehicles. We invite entrants to trailer or drive
their vehicles to the final destination as they see fit.
For the first time we are also offering competitive events and prizes for
neighborhood electric vehicles, electric bikes, scooters etc.
Registration Info and Tour de Sol Background:
Held May 21-25, the Tour will kick off in Westchester County - one of the most
auto-oriented and affluent suburbs of New York City - with a three-day weekend
"green car show and more." During this event auto, bike and bus manufacturers
and Eco-Boutique vendors will showcase, and offer for sale, their wares to the
general public and the press.
In Westchester County, students, individuals and auto makers participating in
the Tour de Sol competition will have an opportunity to show off their stuff to
the general public and earn points toward the championship, which honors the
greenest one-of-a-kind and on-the-market vehicles with quality performance.
For the first time ever we will add neighborhood electric vehicle and electric
bike competitions! Participants will then rally to a street fair in the
Philadelphia media market, likely Trenton, NJ, and conclude with a celebration
and awards ceremony Washington, D.C with key government officials.
Please fill in the registration form
http://www.nesea.org/transportation/tour/involved/enter.html
and register today! Please visit our web site for more information at
www.TourdeSol.org. We will send you an email when the 2004 Tour de Sol Rules
are posted. We do not anticipate any major changes in vehicle specifications.
There will be some scoring and award changes, especially for the Production
Division. Note: you must send us your registration fee to secure your place.
$450 Early Bird registration fee until January 15, 2005
$550 Jan 15-March 15 registration fee
If you would like a printed copy of the rules, please send us $20.
Please save the dates and watch for our promotional post card. We hope you
like our new look and that we will hear from you soon!
Sincerely,
Nancy Hazard, Director, Tour de Sol
Anissa Sanborn, Transportation Event Coordinator
David Knowles, Logistics Coordinator
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA)
http://www.TourDeSol.org
--
Mike Bianchi
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
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Hello,
If anyone has any NEDRA video on digital like MiniDV we would like to get a
copy ASAP.
Breakpoint Media is doing a cable special on EVs and would like some footage
of EV racing. They need it within the next week. (The producers of
Breakpoint Media had done the Discovery Series "Wings") They prefer digital
since copies of VHS tend to look like the quality seen on Ameican Home
Videos.
Also, if anyone has any NEDRA photos or photos of their cars and bikes for
the NEDRA website please let me know. Burnout pictures are more then
welcome. We're going to be putting a photo gallery of NEDRA members cars.
Thanks
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
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>>I'd think that a force should be well below EV1.
Much lower power limits. Much smaller battery packs (less weight).<<
EV1s weigh just over 3000#, even in the NiMH models - how much does a Force
weigh? The EV1 also had the lowest air drag of any car of its size. Of course,
there are VW Ghia conversions that use less than either!
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Hi all,
For anyone interested in an interactive online forum about EV's, I've
set up a forum at http://www.evsource.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl or you
can find it from the homepage http://www.evsource.com
Sorry if anyone feels this is self-promotion - I don't currently sell
anything or make any money off the site, so hopefully no one minds.
-Ryan
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As I recall at EVS20 the Toyota rep claimed that the EV Switch was not implemented on
the North American models because it was feared that someone would turn it on and then
immediately go on the highway and get rear-ended in a collision leading to a lawsuit
blaming the manufacturer for the lack of speed. The fear of the unpredictability of
the US legal system made it easier to simply eliminate this feature. This switch
would enable drivers to travel in the no-fuel areas in some congested cities in Europe
and Japan.
Neil Gover
Still working on my S-10 conversion
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A bill that would streamline the CARB process for hybrid/EV
manufacturing within the state.
A bill that would allow an unlimited number of kit cars to be registered
(currently, there is a limit imposed of 500 cars per year).
A bill that changes the definition of what an EV or hybrid vehicle is.
A bill that would require cities to get more (or "any," in some cases)
charging stations in place - funds to come from the state. This bill
may be piggybacked on a bill about hydrogen charging, but I'm hoping it
isn't.
The issues that I'm running into are educational ones. No one wants to
be linked to any wacko tree-huggers, which is what the EV community is
percieved to be. The EV community is considered to be full of strident
idiots who don't know what they're talking about, so they just talk
louder to make up for it. There are a few dumbasses out there - and
there are certainly some on this list - that continually shoot
themselves in the foot by attempting to link their goofy political
viewpoints to EVs. That's not the way to get laws passed.
Your pal,
Meat.
Marc Geller wrote:
Meat,
Could you tell us more about the bills you are working on?
Marc
On Jan 7, 2004, at 6:10 PM, meat wrote:
Gee, Ken, your post was "rude or generally adversarial," so why don't
YOU go post on the scooter list, scooterdude?
You get what you give out. You want to be "rude or generally
adversarial" you're welcome to keep giving it your best shot. I'm
very good at what I do, and what I do requires me to not be
politically correct - which is a lame idea anyways. As Curly said in
City Slickers the secret to life is "one thing." Find one thing and
do it better than anyone else. I'll tell you right now, scooterdude,
you can do your best to be "rude" or "generally adversarial" all you
want to, but I'll beat you at it every single time. Why? Because I
do one thing better than anyone else; I'm not just an a-hole, I'm an
INCREDIBLE a-hole. How do you think I get disparate parties to work
together on a bill and get it pushed through the assembly and the
house? By being nice and polite when people are being idiots? No.
You point out that they're idiots and you move on. Leave them to
dwell on it.
So, I leave you to dwell on it.
In the meantime, I've got some EV fueling station bills to write.
There are some hydrogen fuel cell people who want a bill drafted up
as well. You go whine about being nice to people, I've got to go
swim with the sharks so we can get more EVs on the roads. You sit at
home with your panties in a wad, leave the battles to the soldiers.
They're not always nice, they're not always PC, but they're the ones
that are protecting YOUR interests because you choose not to.
Your pal,
Meat.
Ken Trough wrote:
"Promoted with incentives."
Yeah. About that...
If the product can't stand on it's own merits, then it shouldn't
be a product.
You must live in some perfect world or parallel universe. In this
world, incentives, tax breaks, tariffs, subsidies, and other tools
are used to promote whatever industries and products the govt is
pushing.
Since they are not likely to stop any of these practices soon, how
about "leveling the playing field" (their favorite term) by
promoting electrics and electric hybrids the same way they support
and promote the fossil fuel industry?
You suspect incorrectly. But thanks for playing.
And why does "meat" feel a need to always be snide and impolite in
this forum? Does civility cost so much?
I suggest that if meat wants to be rude or generally adversarial,
meat can go visit the scootersoapbox where all such rudeness is both
tolerated and welcomed. Either that or maybe meet can stop hiding
behind a silly pseudonym so that we know exactly who this rude
person is.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scootersoapbox
Don't let the name fool you. It is not limited to scooter rants. You
can be as rude as you like on any subject you wish. I'll be in the
soapbox if you want to take me to task for my assertions or
otherwise go after me. I won't however respond to any attacks or
snide comments here.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
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----- Original Message -----
From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:48 PM
Subject: Build Your Own EV Charging Station?
> Hi folks,
>
> Has anyone ever looked into putting in your own EV charging station in a
> public access parking lot? I was thinking maybe something like working
> with the local power company and installing a meter, drop, and box on an
> existing pole adjacent to a friendly parking lot. Assuming one could get
> permission from the owner of the parking lot, what other hurdles would be
> involved? Obviously an electrician would have to install the equipment
and
> of course there would be fees from the city for permits and from the power
> company, plus the cost of the equipment itself, but would this really add
> up to all that much?
>
> Anyone done this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Hi Mike an' All;
OK going back into ancient history here on this one. On the Great Clean
Car Race of 1971, God, THAT dates me! This was done ALL the way across the
USA from Boston, MIT'S campus to Cal Tech's in LA Local power Co's kindy
provided a drop off a litepole, a box and a buncha outlets for most
EVerybody. We were using big Andersons to suck up 240 3 phaze, Rich, eat
your heart out, for charging in any way shape and form! Big clamps ,what
ever folks cobbled together, to get juice. Nobody woulda got away with that
today. They wouldn't let me on a recent TDS plug in my Little Blue Box
charger, cuz, they said, it used the neutral or ground as part of the load
circuit, as everything wired up as a 120 volt load duz anyhow. It had a
neatly wired Range plufg, 50 amps, and woulda pulled 50-60 amps at
plugin?Tapering off to about 6-10 amps when the pack reached 150 volts. No
point of argueing, pissing people off, after all it was THEIR power, so
settled for a juicy 120 volt 20 amp breaker for my variac. Back to old times
, local Power Co's were glad to set up the charging stations and had their
guyz there if any problems. They got a kick out of it, as I remember.They
were strung from 20 to 60 miles apart, depending on the local topography.
The great fantesy/dream of EVerybody was to skip over a few, for bragging
rights, and pay the towing penalty for getting towed to the next one, was
the reality check
Gees! If all this was still in place I would drive out to the Left
coast in my Rabbit. But before getting carried off in clouds of contentment,
it took over a weak, of 24/7 driving, charging, HOT as hell, summer weather,
batteries overheating from constant [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps and [EMAIL PROTECTED] on
the level. Dumping a bunch of icecubes into the battery boxes to try to cool
things down, while charging!! The TDS techies would go nuts today doing
that!
I remenber in my no sleep indused fog, SOMEwhere in AZ or NM ....Globe?
Town we stopped. Young reporter for the Local Rag saying" You guy have the
right car, but you're in the wrong race" Refering to the trans- con thing,
he thought the car was way cool..but was being pushed beyond its willing
capabilities. He, sigh, hada good point. I hope he was around to see the EV
1 that ran this trip off YEARS later, without breaking a sweat, as I
remember, but he only went to Detroit, the GM tech center. I've been there,
too. It is beautiful, got a friend that works there, hence the EV 1 drive
last summer.
Back to the story; Bob Aronson's deal with Holiday Inn in the early 70's
had the plugs in place 3 phase 240 volt hookups in I 94 from Detroit to
Chicago, If you had an EV help yourself!! Open 24/7 drive 'round back and
plug in! NOW if you could get Mc Wendys or Burgler King to set up serious
plugins, AND tell you in their ads.Or the rest areas along the interstates.
THEY have plenty of juice at these, like 240 or Wheee! 480 at the drop out
back.Last summer Bill Glickman told me about a plug setup on I 84 between
Worchester-Hartford, that we could get a sip of juice, at a rest area.
Voila! There it was, plugged in@ 20 amps, til the Rest Stop Manager SAW us,
yelled at us for stealing power, although Bill was told , years ago, that it
was OK, HE had gotten permission to plug there before. BUT Rest Stop
Managers DO change over the yearz, and HE hadn't been clued in that OTHER
ev's could be operating in CT. With say maybe 6 or 7 EV's actively running
around in CT, that I Know of. There MAY be other unListed guyz going it
alone out there??Gotta get them out of the woodwork, and enjoying safety in
numbers<g>!For that matter, nationwide and Worldwide, these poor folks going
it alone, no List to turn to for help and friendship. Look at the fun they
are missing!
Enough remonising, for now, doesn't take much to set it off, though.
Seeya at Lost Wages!(Las Vegas)
Bob
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