EV Digest 3267
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Power to the People by Vijay Vaitheeswaran
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery temps and performance this morning. Wow!
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Build Your Own EV Charging Station?Nostalgia trip!
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: force efficiency
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Battery Scanner
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Prius EV Switch
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: GEM charger question
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Prius EV Switch
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Force Efficiency
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Don't feed the trolls (was The Road To California ...)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: GEM charger question
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: Prius EV Switch
by "Keith Vogt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV Community perceived to be. Was: The Road To California...
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: High Voltage or High Current, Metro 8v vs 6v, now range-trailer?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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Speaking as a Canadian EV'er that works with lead in cold
weather, it is a struggle to keep it warm. Insulation is the
key. If you use the car enough, the batteries keep themselves
warm through internal resistance losses. I find the PFC-50 to be
a great battery warmer.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Seth Allen wrote:
Chris-
This all sounds normal to me for unheated lead that is not used
frequently. 65F is about as low as I want to go with lead, otherwise
range falls off too hard. I really prefer it above 75F, but that's not
really necessary.
I am really impressed with all the Canadian EVs that work with lead in
the cold weather.
Seth
PS It's supposed to be -10 F tonight up here north of Boston.
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--- Begin Message ---
>> 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are in
>> turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage that's doing it;
>> it's changes in the way the battery is built).
Sam Uzi wrote:
> the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates
> (I presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer
> time? a matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
Yes, the plates of the 6v are generally thicker and stronger, and so can
accumulate more damage before they wear out.
8v batteries generally have the same plates as 6v, but fewer of them per
cell. So they wind up carrying more current per plate, which
accellerates wear. If you could restrain yourself to 6/8ths of the
current, the 8v could last as long as the 6v; but most people use 8v so
they can raise the voltage and so draw *MORE* current. This shortens the
battery life.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Hello Mick,
I have install a charging station at work, of which I used from 1976 to
1990. I am a licease master electrical technician at a industrial complexed
during that time, before I retired.
The lighting poles in the parking lot where own and service by the local
power company. I luck out as where they were service with 240 VAC -3 wire
that was energized 24 hours a day. There was photo controls on each light
for turning on and off.
Install a 50 amp service on the pole that had a directed overhead service
feeder to a power company transformer. Install a meter base, power outlet
with 50 and 20 amp circuit breakers and recepticles.
I had it inspected and connected by the electrical inspector and power
company when they were on site inspecting one of our new buildings.
A industrial services connection which this fall's under, had a flat monthly
rate of $1.75. Because my drive was only 2.54 miles from my home, I had
very little charging time on it. Mostly used it for maintain the battery
temperatures to above 70 degrees.
The power box had extra 120 volt recepticles in it with 90 degree plug and
cords left there with the cover lock down. Was used by anybody with ICE cars
in winter.
In 1976 the industrial cost was only 0.02 per KWH. My power bill for this
meter range from $1.75 to about $10.00. I would do my bulk charging at
this station, instead at home where the cost was 0.04 per KWH.
Today the cost is 0.08 per KWH.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:05 AM
Subject: Re: Build Your Own EV Charging Station?Nostalgia trip!
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:48 PM
> Subject: Build Your Own EV Charging Station?
>
>
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > Has anyone ever looked into putting in your own EV charging station in a
> > public access parking lot? I was thinking maybe something like working
> > with the local power company and installing a meter, drop, and box on an
> > existing pole adjacent to a friendly parking lot. Assuming one could
> > get
> > permission from the owner of the parking lot, what other hurdles would
> > be
> > involved? Obviously an electrician would have to install the equipment
> and
> > of course there would be fees from the city for permits and from the
> > power
> > company, plus the cost of the equipment itself, but would this really
> > add
> > up to all that much?
> >
> > Anyone done this?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Hi Mike an' All;
>
> OK going back into ancient history here on this one. On the Great
> Clean
> Car Race of 1971, God, THAT dates me! This was done ALL the way across the
> USA from Boston, MIT'S campus to Cal Tech's in LA Local power Co's kindy
> provided a drop off a litepole, a box and a buncha outlets for most
> EVerybody. We were using big Andersons to suck up 240 3 phaze, Rich, eat
> your heart out, for charging in any way shape and form! Big clamps ,what
> ever folks cobbled together, to get juice. Nobody woulda got away with
> that
> today. They wouldn't let me on a recent TDS plug in my Little Blue Box
> charger, cuz, they said, it used the neutral or ground as part of the load
> circuit, as everything wired up as a 120 volt load duz anyhow. It had a
> neatly wired Range plufg, 50 amps, and woulda pulled 50-60 amps at
> plugin?Tapering off to about 6-10 amps when the pack reached 150 volts. No
> point of argueing, pissing people off, after all it was THEIR power, so
> settled for a juicy 120 volt 20 amp breaker for my variac. Back to old
> times
> , local Power Co's were glad to set up the charging stations and had their
> guyz there if any problems. They got a kick out of it, as I remember.They
> were strung from 20 to 60 miles apart, depending on the local topography.
> The great fantesy/dream of EVerybody was to skip over a few, for bragging
> rights, and pay the towing penalty for getting towed to the next one, was
> the reality check
>
> Gees! If all this was still in place I would drive out to the Left
> coast in my Rabbit. But before getting carried off in clouds of
> contentment,
> it took over a weak, of 24/7 driving, charging, HOT as hell, summer
> weather,
> batteries overheating from constant [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps and [EMAIL PROTECTED] on
> the level. Dumping a bunch of icecubes into the battery boxes to try to
> cool
> things down, while charging!! The TDS techies would go nuts today doing
> that!
>
> I remenber in my no sleep indused fog, SOMEwhere in AZ or NM ....Globe?
> Town we stopped. Young reporter for the Local Rag saying" You guy have the
> right car, but you're in the wrong race" Refering to the trans- con thing,
> he thought the car was way cool..but was being pushed beyond its willing
> capabilities. He, sigh, hada good point. I hope he was around to see the
> EV
> 1 that ran this trip off YEARS later, without breaking a sweat, as I
> remember, but he only went to Detroit, the GM tech center. I've been
> there,
> too. It is beautiful, got a friend that works there, hence the EV 1 drive
> last summer.
>
> Back to the story; Bob Aronson's deal with Holiday Inn in the early
> 70's
> had the plugs in place 3 phase 240 volt hookups in I 94 from Detroit to
> Chicago, If you had an EV help yourself!! Open 24/7 drive 'round back and
> plug in! NOW if you could get Mc Wendys or Burgler King to set up serious
> plugins, AND tell you in their ads.Or the rest areas along the
> interstates.
> THEY have plenty of juice at these, like 240 or Wheee! 480 at the drop out
> back.Last summer Bill Glickman told me about a plug setup on I 84 between
> Worchester-Hartford, that we could get a sip of juice, at a rest area.
> Voila! There it was, plugged in@ 20 amps, til the Rest Stop Manager SAW
> us,
> yelled at us for stealing power, although Bill was told , years ago, that
> it
> was OK, HE had gotten permission to plug there before. BUT Rest Stop
> Managers DO change over the yearz, and HE hadn't been clued in that OTHER
> ev's could be operating in CT. With say maybe 6 or 7 EV's actively running
> around in CT, that I Know of. There MAY be other unListed guyz going it
> alone out there??Gotta get them out of the woodwork, and enjoying safety
> in
> numbers<g>!For that matter, nationwide and Worldwide, these poor folks
> going
> it alone, no List to turn to for help and friendship. Look at the fun they
> are missing!
>
> Enough remonising, for now, doesn't take much to set it off, though.
>
> Seeya at Lost Wages!(Las Vegas)
>
> Bob
>
>
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> what could make your Force get 125 wh/mi? That's well below an EV1.
The original Impact (designed by Aerovironment and Alan Cocconi et.a.)
was smaller, lighter, had a lower drag coefficient, and so was more
efficient.
- length 163"
- width 68"
- height 47"
- weight 2200 lbs
- drag coefficient 0.185
- efficiency 112 wh/mile
The GM EV1 was a bigger, heavier car, and so didn't do as well. With
lead-acid batteries:
- length 169.8"
- width 69.3"
- height 50.5"
- weight 2922 lbs
- drag coefficient 0.19
- efficiency 181 wh/mile
The above efficiency numbers do not take charging efficiency into
account. Multiply the above efficiencies by 0.90-0.93 for lead-acid to
get efficiency from the AC wall outlet. The EV-1 with nimh batteries was
essentially the same, but charging efficiency was much lower due to the
need to cool the batteries with the air conditioner, making efficiency
from the AC outlet more like 300 wh/mile.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Neil Gover wrote:
> As I recall at EVS20 the Toyota rep claimed that the EV Switch was
> not implemented on the North American models because it was feared
> that someone would turn it on and then immediately go on the highway
> and get rear-ended in a collision leading to a lawsuit blaming the
> manufacturer for the lack of speed.
This has to be just an off-the-top-of-his-head excuse. Any engineer is
going to design that button so it just biases the car to prefer electric
to gasoline operation. For example, if you set the car to 'electric'
when you leave your driveway, and forget to push it when you stomp on
the pedal to accellerate onto the freeway, the car will automatically
start the gas engine anyway, because you have demanded full power.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
FWIW, it was a dead charger, and the Sears (who handles GEM warranty work
in San Diego) repair tech said that a new charger was $830 (ouch - hope I
never have to pay this much). He said that usually they have a blown fuse
inside, but they have been instructed to replace the unit. He said he had
tried to find the fuse, but wasn't available at Radio Shack, etc, but that
he would keep looking, because he felt bad when someone had one out of
warranty. At least he wasn't insensitive to real peoples needs.
As an aside, he had what he called a 0-volt charger, which looked to be a
modified NG1 that wouldn't require a minimum pack voltage, that he uses to
recover packs that the regular charger won't charge.
I'm getting this for my parents, and so going to a custom solution in the
future would be problematic, since I live too far away to be able to fix it
if it goes wrong. But I feel bad about sending them somethine which I know
has inferior parts inside.
Thanks,
Chris
At 06:11 PM 1/5/2004 -0800, Rich Rudman wrote:
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> Hi,
> I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents that runs fine
> but refuses to charge. (Don't ask me why the dealer doesn't fix it - I'm
> just glad I got them to finally deliver it - a multimonth horror story)
>
> I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the charger, I get
> a blinking red light and beep, which according to an online manual (which I
> can't seem to find again), this indicates that the charger believes that
> the batteries are too low to charge. This was confirmed by the first-line
> GEM service phone answerer (technician would probably be too
> generous). The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter indicates ~80%
> charge remaining, and when I probe the individual batteries, they are
> sitting at ~12.3 unloaded. One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
> string and charged it individually. That isn't fully discharged is it?
>
> I was on hold for an hour waiting to speak to a real technician (maybe he
> went home for the day and didn't tell the first tier guy???) I want to
> know what the minimum voltage the charger expects to see is before it will
> start charging, so I can take the batteries out of the picture.
>
> Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else could it be besides a
> bum charger?
>
> Thanks,
> Chris
Geez!!! I really need to build a NEV class charger.
How many are out there that are Dead just because somebody
cheaped out
and saved a couple of bucks.
The problem is I need about $500 more than the market would pay.
I am really looking at this market.
What is a good charger worth for the NEV world?
What would you folks pay??
I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
Iso of course... Sigh!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
At 12:30 PM 1/8/2004 -0800, Lee Hart stated:
This has to be just an off-the-top-of-his-head excuse. Any engineer is
going to design that button so it just biases the car to prefer electric
to gasoline operation. For example, if you set the car to 'electric'
when you leave your driveway, and forget to push it when you stomp on
the pedal to accellerate onto the freeway, the car will automatically
start the gas engine anyway, because you have demanded full power.
Ahh, but remember, this would be done because the Legal Dept had the
Marketing Dept explain the feature to them....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
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On 8 Jan 2004 at 7:08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> EV1s weigh just over 3000#, even in the NiMH models - how much does a Force
> weigh?
Early models were ~2100 lb; later ones ~2500 (?) lb.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Their talk was the talk of sordid buccaneers: it was
reckless without hardihood, greedy without audacity,
and cruel without courage; there was not an atom of
foresight ... in the whole batch of them, and they did
not seem aware these things are wanted for the work of
the world.
-- Joseph Conrad, "Heart of Darkness"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's generally been the policy on this list that people who waste bandwidth
by consistently posting off-topic, violating the list charter, attacking
other list members, or perpetuating flame wars, are shown the door. The
vast majority of EV hobbyists and pros on this list are thoughtful adults
who treat each other courteously, so this has happened very, very
infrequently in the almost 9 years I've been on this list.
But there's a tiny number of people on the net who just enjoy abusing and
insulting others.
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/t/troll.html
If an EV list participant persists in this kind of antisocial behavior, the
simplest way to handle it is to simply ignore his or her posts as if they
had never crossed. The majority of us, as well-socialized adults, have a
responsibility to hold our tempers and not respond to flame-bait.
Talk about EVs. Solve EV problems. Ignore rude people. If they don't get
reactions, they'll either learn to be polite or go elsewhere.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
MPG of Ford's most fuel-efficient 2003 car: 36
MPG of Ford's 1912 Model T: 35
-- Harper's Index, Sept. 2003
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On 7 Jan 2004 at 21:49, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> The difference is how many plates per
> cell.
I'm pretty sure the 8-volters have thinner separators. That might have an
effect on life. Wouldn't it mean that dendrites could short cells more
easily? Perhaps there are other failure mechanisms that are accelerated by
thinner separators?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Their talk was the talk of sordid buccaneers: it was
reckless without hardihood, greedy without audacity,
and cruel without courage; there was not an atom of
foresight ... in the whole batch of them, and they did
not seem aware these things are wanted for the work of
the world.
-- Joseph Conrad, "Heart of Darkness"
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
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--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
If this is a Zivan charger, the Sparrow owners have found out how to force
the charger to start when the pack is below the low-voltage setting.
You can override the low voltage lockout in the charger. Just above the
socket for the thermal probe, there is a removable plastic button. When you
pop that off, you'll see an array of jumper pins. By connecting the pair
(top and bottom) nearest the plastic case, and then plugging in the charger,
you can get it to start. At that point, you can remove the jumper and it
will continue to run. Try using test leads with very small alligator clips
and wrap the clips with electrical tape to avoid connecting anything but the
two pins.
This is the same as sticking a very small screw driver inbetween the two
pins that are closest to you as you look into the round access hole on the
side of the charger.
Also, open up the battery compartment and checking battery temperatures
while this jump-start charge is going. If any battery gets too hot to touch,
stop the charge and let the pack cool down. Also check voltage and current
on the E-meter or multimeter.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Weaver
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:37 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: GEM charger question
FWIW, it was a dead charger, and the Sears (who handles GEM warranty work
in San Diego) repair tech said that a new charger was $830 (ouch - hope I
never have to pay this much). He said that usually they have a blown fuse
inside, but they have been instructed to replace the unit. He said he had
tried to find the fuse, but wasn't available at Radio Shack, etc, but that
he would keep looking, because he felt bad when someone had one out of
warranty. At least he wasn't insensitive to real peoples needs.
As an aside, he had what he called a 0-volt charger, which looked to be a
modified NG1 that wouldn't require a minimum pack voltage, that he uses to
recover packs that the regular charger won't charge.
I'm getting this for my parents, and so going to a custom solution in the
future would be problematic, since I live too far away to be able to fix it
if it goes wrong. But I feel bad about sending them somethine which I know
has inferior parts inside.
Thanks,
Chris
At 06:11 PM 1/5/2004 -0800, Rich Rudman wrote:
>Chris Weaver wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> > I have a newly delivered GEM that I'm getting for my parents that runs
fine
> > but refuses to charge. (Don't ask me why the dealer doesn't fix it -
I'm
> > just glad I got them to finally deliver it - a multimonth horror story)
> >
> > I believe it has the Zivan NG1 charger. When I plug in the charger, I
get
> > a blinking red light and beep, which according to an online manual
(which I
> > can't seem to find again), this indicates that the charger believes that
> > the batteries are too low to charge. This was confirmed by the
first-line
> > GEM service phone answerer (technician would probably be too
> > generous). The odd thing is that the SOC (I assume) meter indicates
~80%
> > charge remaining, and when I probe the individual batteries, they are
> > sitting at ~12.3 unloaded. One was about 12.1, so I took it out of the
> > string and charged it individually. That isn't fully discharged is it?
> >
> > I was on hold for an hour waiting to speak to a real technician (maybe
he
> > went home for the day and didn't tell the first tier guy???) I want to
> > know what the minimum voltage the charger expects to see is before it
will
> > start charging, so I can take the batteries out of the picture.
> >
> > Anyone know? If the voltage exceeds that, what else could it be besides
a
> > bum charger?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Chris
>
>
>Geez!!! I really need to build a NEV class charger.
> How many are out there that are Dead just because somebody
> cheaped out
>and saved a couple of bucks.
>
>The problem is I need about $500 more than the market would pay.
>I am really looking at this market.
>
>What is a good charger worth for the NEV world?
>What would you folks pay??
>I hear the NG1 is about $400. And about a buck a watt.
>Assume that I will give you about 1000 watts or more.
>Iso of course... Sigh!!
>
>
>
>--
>Rich Rudman
>Manzanita Micro
>www.manzanitamicro.com
>1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The rumor on Prius list is they did it to simplify EPA testing.
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--- Begin Message ---
meat wrote:
The issues that I'm running into are educational ones. No one wants to
be linked to any wacko tree-huggers, which is what the EV community is
percieved to be. The EV community is considered to be full of strident
idiots who don't know what they're talking about, so they just talk
louder to make up for it. ...
Troy? You back?
That's a little different from the EV community that I know.
Perhaps those who perceive as above are misinformed. I've had
personal (i.e., face to face) contact with 40 or 50 members of
the EV community and email correspondence with many more through
this list. The only strident idiots I have ever seen or heard
from have been trolls hitting the list with deliberately
incendiary comments (like yours). The majority of members of the
EV community are hobbyists with a passion for the electric drive.
Generous to a fault with advice and encouragement. Realistic
reports of performance issues, problems with their EV's, mistakes
and embarassing errors, all in the interest of preventing their
friends from having the same problems. There is a certain amount
of political commentary, to be sure, usually with an American
bias that is of limited interest to non-Americans, but the list
was after all constituted to help promote electric vehicles, so
that is part of what it takes. The term "wacko tree hugger" is
generally derogatory. There is no need for childish name
calling on this list, "pal, meat".
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
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--- Begin Message ---
> Electrons move at the same speed regardless of Voltage.
yeah, I realized "slower" was the wrong term to use as soon as I'd hit the
"send" button... I meant to say "at a lower rate"/"fewer at a time", but it
seems even that would not have been correct either
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Vince Barma wrote:
> Given that I already have 13x27TMX's in the car already situated,
> what battery and pack size would I go with for the trailer?
They don't have to be the same type, or same total voltage. But, it will
make things a lot simpler if they are.
If your trailer just has another set of the same battery 13 27TMX in the
car, 13 27TMX in the trailer), then you *can* just connect them in
parallel with a big Anderson connector. As long as you don't have any
bad cells, the current when you plug them together won't be all that
large. Even if one pack is dead and the other fully charged, the voltage
difference between them won't be large enough to cause a dangerous
current to flow. Just be sure to include a fuse in series, just in case
something ever goes wrong.
The same is true as long as both packs are made of lead-acid batteries,
even if they are different types or different amphour capacities. The
peak currents could be higher, but are still unlikely to every reach 100
amps.
Both packs can be charged or discharged while in parallel with no
special precautions. While charging, the limitations of the weakest pack
will dictate when to stop charging. For example, if you parallel
floodeds with AGMs, you'll have to stop charging at a lower voltage to
protect the AGMs, and the floodeds won't get as fully charged.
Things get much more complicated if the two packs are of different
voltages, or different types of batteries. In most cases, you would need
some kind of charge controller to limit the current that flows.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lynn, did you have an issue with getting your desired posts on
the Trojans? That's been a problem with Trojan. Apparently US
Battery will put on your desired posts at the factory (or has the
batteries with the correct ones in stock). Trojan requires the
dealer to burn on different posts than Trojan's default (the
little stud with a hole - squishy). On my Trojan T-125s in my
current pack, I wanted automotive posts (just a thick round stud
with no hole through it). The dealer burned them on, but in the
process they disfigured the tops of several batteries (one reason
I have special insulating covers on the tops of the front exposed
pack). We had to reshape these posts before installing them in
the car since they were of all different sizes and tilts. I also
have had several leaking posts, so have had to learn about those
special foul goopy no-co rings. One battery also had a slight
leak on the top when we tipped it on its side to attach the
heater plate - that leak was caused by disfiguring during post
burning. I won't be doing Trojans again. My first pack (US 2300
with L or flag posts) had no leakers, and there was only one
US2300 third-party replacement that leaked at end-of-life.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
> Maybe I'll try 6 volters next time.
>
> So far my history
> 18 8VGC = 1161 pound pack gave 10.59 miles per pound
> 19 8VGC-HC= 1311 pound pack gave 10.67 miles per pound
> New pack that I am installing in February:
> 10 T875 = 1134 pounds (just to compare Trojan's to US8VGC in my
application)
>
> Maybe the next one 18 6V T125's to compare 8 V vs 6V?
>
> Lynn
>
> 104 volts until February....
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:54 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro
>
>
> 14 batteries (910lbs) is about max for a Metro with stiffer
springs and
> better brakes. The one I sold had 14 US8VGC's but I got better
longevity
> from the 6Volters. Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:00 AM
> Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
>
>
> > On 5 Jan 2004 at 5:28, vinnybrain wrote:
> >
> > > thats why I put airbag spring
> > > inserts in last year.
> >
> > When you suggest 1700 lb of lead in a Geo Metro, you are
talking about a
> > severe overload. The battery mass alone is about as much as
some years
> > weighed in gas trim!
> >
> > There is more to correcting for that than increasing spring
rates or
> > inserting air springs. You are creating a vehicle which is
apt to have
> some
> > dangerous and/or unpredictable handling qualities. Ask Bob
Rice what it
> was
> > like driving the EFP Renault R10s with about that much lead
in them.
> >
> > Then there's the issue of durability; doubling the design
load will be
> > murder on the suspension attachment points and wheel
bearings. You will
> > also get excessive body flex, which will tend to open up
welded joints in
> > the body structure.
> >
> > And then there's brakes. Just wait until you stand on the
pedal and try
> to
> > stop 3000+ lb of Metro with those tiny Metro brakes and
tires. And just
> > what ARE you going to do about tires with higher load
capacity?
> >
> > Besides, I don't know where you'd put all those batteries in
a Metro. You
> > sure won't be able to keep them all low in the chassis. This
will shift
> the
> > center of mass upward, causing greater body pitch and lean.
I can tell
> you
> > from experience that driving a car like that is like riding a
bike while
> > wearing a 35 lb backpack - not very pleasant.
> >
> > I suppose all of this is correctable, if you have the
expertise and money.
> > You can weld in body reinforcement if you know where it's
needed. You can
> > find brakes and tires from some larger car and make them fit.
You can
> make
> > drastic floorpan modifications to find places for the
batteries. But why?
> >
> > It seems to me the practical answers are:
> >
> > 1. Use a moderate to high voltage single string of Optimas or
similar AGMs
> > to make this a relatively short-range, quick and fun EV.
> >
> > 2. Use advanced batteries (NiCd, NiZn, NiMH, possibly LiIon)
to get range
> > without so much mass.
> >
> > 3. Choose a vehicle that can handle the mass better than the
Metro.
> >
> > Not to frighten you, but if you do build this car with that
much battery
> > mass, and without the extensive modification it needs, I
suggest that when
> > you're done with it you junk it. Not only will the weight
have stressed
> the
> > chassis excessively, selling it to someone as a used EV could
leave you
> open
> > to legal liability if he has a collision.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50
billion
> > Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf:
$19 billion
> >
> > -- Harper's Index, April 2002
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One thing to watch out for in changing from 8V to 6V (or
vice-versa) is that the posts for the 8V-ers are on side of the
battery; 6V are on opposite corners. May or may not be a big
deal, but could require a lot of new cables, etc.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 5:33 PM
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
> If you can fit 18 batteries, why didn't you go with T-105s?
>
>
> They would have been much cheaper and you probably would have
gotten
> MORE miles, possibly 20,000 or more (some folks have gotten
30,000+ from
> T-105s)
>
>
>
> On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 16:14, Adams, Lynn wrote:
> > The more I look into batteries, I start to think pounds of
lead is the great equalizer. Lower voltage requires higher
current which resultes in deeper discharges and shorter life.
This effect nearly cancels out the higher capacity.
> >
> > So far I have limited experiance (only two packs) The first
was 18 US8VGC at 64.5 lbs each = 1161 pounds which took me 12300
miles (10.59 miles per pound). The second pack was 19 US8VGC-hc
at 69 lbs= 1311 each which lasted 14000 miles (10.68 miles per
pound). Not a big differance. Next pack will be T875's (ordered
yesterday)... 18 x 63 lbs = 1134 lbs. If I get more than 12,000
out of this pack I will be pleasently suprised..
> >
> > Lynn
> >
> > still running electric, but at 104 Volts until February....
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: vinnybrain [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 01, 2004 11:12 PM
> > To: Adams, Lynn
> > Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
> >
> >
> > Hi Lynn,
> > Thanks for the response. I think that with all
thats been
> > presented here on the list about Orbitals and AGM's their
unique
> > charging requirements, the fact that I'd have to buddy them
up, and
> > their expense kinda put them out of my ballpark... along with
SAFT's
> > and NiMh. I'm just a humble broadcaster man trying to
commute down
> > 80, not break the land-speed record----hahaaa.. Most times
I've read
> > peope are trying to get higher accelleration and other
> > characteristics out of AGM's as opposed to higher range. Lee
Hart
> > made a good point on this in a previous recent post.
> > I believe I had already stongly considered giving
20x8VGC's a try
> > over the 13xgrp27s that are already in my metro. I think what
may
> > have be shying me away from them is that the 27's I already
own have
> > a 120ah / 20 hr rating and 8VGC's have only a 145ah rating.
That only
> > seems like a net pack increase of 23.7kw - 18.7kw = 5
kilowatts. Now
> > looking at the US145 spec I see a 244ah rating and my eyes
light up
> > thinking 'double the amps, double the range.' I could even
drop to
> > 120 volts and 20x145's on account of the weight and still
come out at
> > 29.2kw -- 10kw more than I have now.
> > Then theres my other consideration... for only 238lbs more
I could
> > have 26xUS2200's... a 35.1kw pack.
> > Wich leads me back to my original question.... am I better
off
> > range-wise going for a higher voltage capacity pack, or a
higher
> > current capacity pack.
> > I'm thinking if my fellow EB-EAA member Wayne Foss can
make it
> > from Vallejo to Alameda on 120 volts of 145's I should be
able to
> > make his distance plus the bay bridge to Bryant st part with
the 156
> > volts of US2200's (5.9Kw more than the 20x145's.)
> >
> > Any Thoughts? Ideas? I'll even take criticisms...?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Vince Barma
> --
>
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
++++
> The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there
should be a
> capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take
the
> safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve
itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I got out my old US Battery lit since I thought the US2200 had 17
plates/cell, but I was wrong, it is 19. However, then I started
looking at the weight, etc. specs, comparing between the US2200
and the US125 (I had remembered the US2200 being about 2 lbs
lighter). 19 plates/cell in each, weight (64lbs) and volume
dimensions the same. Yet, the US2200 is rated at 220Ahr, and the
US125 at 230Ahr. 75A rating is 108 minutes for the US2200, yet
the US125 can stagger on for an additional 17 minutes (16%) to
125 minutes. Hmm, I thought the weight of the lead pretty much
told the story. Then I noted this small asterisk next to the
US2200 line that says "uses the traditional plate and separator
design", but there is no such asterisk for the US125. So maybe
there are some other factors that can make a significant
difference. Are there other differences between these two
batteries than what's mentioned in the "traditional" quote. I
doubt the color of the case makes any difference... :-)
By the way, I was somewhat surprised that my pack of Trojan T125s
had maroon cases and tops, instead of the white cases and green
tops. I thought it was the T105s that came in maroon. Maybe
they ran out of green cases, do you suppose, or is it just a
marketing change (the batteries were purchased in Dec. 2000)?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current
> About 6V vs 8 volt battery life, here's a post by Nawaz ( of US
Batteries)
> from 2000:
>
> *Hi:
>
> *I have not cycle life tested our US8VGC, but I expect these to
deliver
> similar
> *number of cycles as the US2200, since the 8 VOlt product is
made from the
> same
> *plates as the US2200. The 8 Volt battery has 15 plates per
cell and the
> US2200
> *has 19 of the same plates per cell. The DOD for the 8 Volt
battery would be
> same
> *at 56 Ampere current draw as it is for the US2200 at the 75
Ampere draw. At
> 75
> *Ampere draw the 8 Volt will give even more cycles since now
the DOD is
> *shallower.
>
> *Sincerely
>
> *Nawaz Qureshi
>
> So, since the plates are the same, it does seem like the cycle
life ( given
> the same number of batteries and the same power draw) should be
the same for
> the US8VGC's and the US2200's. (actually, the 8 volters should
have a
> slight edge, with more total plates : 120 vs 116). I also
think that the
> interconnect resistance (external to the batteries) should
favor the 8
> volters - less current at the same power- so less power loss
( by the square
> of the current) in the cables, contactors, etc. The internal
battery
> resistance should be a wash.
>
> My (very un-educated ) guess as to why 8 volters seem to have
shorter cycle
> lives ( does anyone have hard data?) is that, with the higher
voltage
> available with 8-volters, it would be hard not to use more
power than with
> the same number of 6 volters and a lower pack voltage. In
other words, the
> max power limitation of a lower voltage system ( using 6
volters) might make
> the batteries last longer. Even occasional high current draws
from the 8
> volters would do them in faster than the 6 volters.
>
> Based on this thinking, I still plan to use US8VGC's in my Echo
conversion (
> still looking for a donor, though; I'm working on the charger
now). The
> tough part may be limiting current draw to maintain battery
life ( maybe a
> warning buzzer that comes on at 250 battery amps?)
>
> Phil Marino
>
>
> >From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current
> >Date: 07 Jan 2004 21:49:30 -0700
> >
> >Electrons move at the same speed regardless of Voltage.
> >Also, as I understand it, 6V and 8V batteries have exactly the
same
> >thickness and number of plates. The difference is how many
plates per
> >cell.
> >
> >Now for the bad news, I don't know why the 6V batteries last
longer.
> >For a given number of batteries the 6V will have less voltage
than the
> >8V so they will see higher current. It seems to me that the
current per
> >plate will be about the same.
> >Perhaps it has something to do with fewer interconnects with
more plates
> >per interconnect and therefor less resistance. Less voltage
sag, even
> >with the higher current, means lower losses.
> >
> >
> >On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 21:18, Sam Uzi wrote:
> > > > 6v batteries generally have longer life tha 8v, which are
in
> > > > turn longer than 12v batteries. (It's not the voltage
that's doing it;
> > > > it's changes in the way the battery is built).
> > >
> > > <dipstick question>
> > >
> > > the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the
plates (I
> > > presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a
longer time? a
> > > matter of available surface area? ...or something like
that?
> > >
> > >
> > > </dipstick question>
> >--
>
>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
+++++
> >The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there
should be a
> >capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take
the
> >safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve
itself?
> >
>
>
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--- End Message ---
