EV Digest 3268
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: High Voltage or High Current
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Community perceived to be. Was: The Road To California...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Sporty Bradley GTII Electric Vehicle for sale!
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV Community perceived to be. Was: The Road To California...
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
by "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) BEV Test Drives!
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) MB80 cycling test results up to cycle 54
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ampabout ... yadda, yadda, yadda
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Meats Point, Your Right to Modify (long)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: MB80 cycling test results up to cycle 54
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: force efficiency
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Don't feed the trolls (was The Road To California ...)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Download your free 2004 EAA Calendar
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: force efficiency
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Download your free 2004 EAA Calendar
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) AC arc supression
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Force Efficiency
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Meats Point, Your Right to Modify (long)
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> By the way, I was somewhat surprised that my pack of Trojan
> T125s had maroon cases and tops, instead of the white cases
> and green tops. I thought it was the T105s that came in
> maroon. Maybe they ran out of green cases, do you suppose,
> or is it just a marketing change (the batteries were
> purchased in Dec. 2000)?
Marketing change. I think all [deep cycle?] Trojans are now in the
trademarked maroon cases (or at least I've seen 30XHS, SCS225, L16G, and
T105 in maroon so far).
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> The majority of members of the
> EV community are hobbyists with a passion for the electric drive.
> Generous to a fault with advice and encouragement. Realistic
> reports of performance issues, problems with their EV's, mistakes
> and embarassing errors, all in the interest of preventing their
> friends from having the same problems.
Agreed, and this is all good, and it's what makes the EV list 'normally', a wonderful
place.
> There is a certain amount
> of political commentary, to be sure
This is where the problem is! I wrote about it last week, and shortly afterwards, here
came more political comments. If the political comments would simply stop and simply
not
be permitted, the rest of the bickering would vanish.
> The term "wacko tree hugger" is
> generally derogatory. There is no need for childish name
> calling on this list, "pal, meat".
I believe Meat's response was generated by the same political comments I've asked to be
eliminated. Conservative or liberal, they have no place here! I believe his comments
would
never had hit the list, were it not for political comments first made by others, which
underscores the need to STOP THE POLITICAL COMMENTS!
There was just a post made by a close EV friend of mine, who shall go unnamed, where he
resorted to political comments at the end of his post. I was very disappointed in him
for
this, his political viewpoint grossly offended me, and unlike all his other emails
which I
save, it was deleted.
Please, oh please everyone, stop the political and social commentary!!!! I don't come
here
to listen to president bashing, I don't come here to listen to environmentalist
bashing, I
don't come here to listen to comments about someone's governor, and I don't come here
to
talk about elections, past or future!
Let's resume talking EVs, and let's not fling out social and political viewpoints
(that if
they think it out first) they know could be ill received by others!
I'd much rather spend my keyboard time writing fun and or interesting stuff about EVs!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a working electric vehicle for sale, please see my listing on
eBay.com with this link:
http://www.monkees.net/ebay
Bradley GT II Electric Vehicle EV GTE No Gas!
This one of the sportiest looking EV's on the road, and is also the easiest
car you will ever buy and drive. No need to stop at any gas stations, just
plug it into any 110v household outlet overnight and it's ready to go the
next day, up to 40 miles on a charge with zero emissions. The fun gull-wing
doors make people think of the "Back to the Future" movie Delorean. This
vehicle was factory built by the Bradley kit car company as an electric
vehicle in 1980, based on a sturdy 1971 VW Beetle frame. Fully licensed and
registered as an electric powered 1971 VW with California DMV plates and
tags paid up till Sep 2004. Low cost insurance on this car! A great second
vehicle. Electric vehicles are fun to own and you can do something to help
the earth today! Where can you buy a freeway capable EV these days? They
are rare and great to own.
Thanks for your attention!
brad
760-580-1588
Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
meat wrote:
The issues that I'm running into are educational ones. No one wants
to be linked to any wacko tree-huggers, which is what the EV
community is percieved to be. The EV community is considered to be
full of strident idiots who don't know what they're talking about, so
they just talk louder to make up for it. ...
Troy? You back?
That's a little different from the EV community that I know. Perhaps
those who perceive as above are misinformed. I've had personal (i.e.,
face to face) contact with 40 or 50 members of the EV community and
email correspondence with many more through this list. The only
strident idiots I have ever seen or heard from have been trolls
hitting the list with deliberately incendiary comments (like yours).
The majority of members of the EV community are hobbyists with a
passion for the electric drive. Generous to a fault with advice and
encouragement. Realistic reports of performance issues, problems with
their EV's, mistakes and embarassing errors, all in the interest of
preventing their friends from having the same problems. There is a
certain amount of political commentary, to be sure, usually with an
American bias that is of limited interest to non-Americans, but the
list was after all constituted to help promote electric vehicles, so
that is part of what it takes. The term "wacko tree hugger" is
generally derogatory. There is no need for childish name calling on
this list, "pal, meat".
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Well, see, there's the rub. What YOU may see in the EV community is not
translating into the real world. Politicians are on a time schedule,
and they do not have years to live among the EVers and learn the secrets
of the tribe.
The term "wacko tree hugger" isn't generally derogatory - it's a wake up
call. I didn't coin that term, I got it from a lobbyist who doesn't
want to be involved with EVs if those are the people he's going to be
representing.
The only people being childish are those that aren't understanding what
I'm writing, or who are responding with idiotic attacks and incendiary
comments - like yours, "pal." I'm not attacking the EV community and
I'm not attacking you. You can continue with your hobby and your
correspondence and your contacts. But rest assured that your hobby will
be legislated out of existence through inactivity or improper activity
on the part of those strident idiots in the EV community.
I'm a car person. I love the mechanical marvels that propel us around.
I don't want to see EVs or hybrids or home built or kit cars legislated
away. So you go ahead keep on fighting, attacking and attempting to
have your ego justify something I wrote that you obviously
misunderstood. You're in the minority.
Your pal,
Meat.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll have to wait and see how the post turn out. My distributor has ordered a my set
from the factory with the UT terminals (automotive post with hole through it). I'll
take a good look at them when they arrive in februray.
I do not think I would have a real problem switching to the 6V, but only wanted to
change one variable at a time to enable a good comparision between manufacturers.
So far I've learned: 8VGC vs 8VGC-HC not much differance (on pound for pound basis)
This next pack will be 8VGC vs T875...ask me in a year. Then I'll try the T105 (or
T125) with a 108V system
Lynn
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Hursch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 1:43 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
Lynn, did you have an issue with getting your desired posts on
the Trojans? That's been a problem with Trojan. Apparently US
Battery will put on your desired posts at the factory (or has the
batteries with the correct ones in stock). Trojan requires the
dealer to burn on different posts than Trojan's default (the
little stud with a hole - squishy). On my Trojan T-125s in my
current pack, I wanted automotive posts (just a thick round stud
with no hole through it). The dealer burned them on, but in the
process they disfigured the tops of several batteries (one reason
I have special insulating covers on the tops of the front exposed
pack). We had to reshape these posts before installing them in
the car since they were of all different sizes and tilts. I also
have had several leaking posts, so have had to learn about those
special foul goopy no-co rings. One battery also had a slight
leak on the top when we tipped it on its side to attach the
heater plate - that leak was caused by disfiguring during post
burning. I won't be doing Trojans again. My first pack (US 2300
with L or flag posts) had no leakers, and there was only one
US2300 third-party replacement that leaked at end-of-life.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 3:25 PM
Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current-Metro 8V vs 6V
> Maybe I'll try 6 volters next time.
>
> So far my history
> 18 8VGC = 1161 pound pack gave 10.59 miles per pound
> 19 8VGC-HC= 1311 pound pack gave 10.67 miles per pound
> New pack that I am installing in February:
> 10 T875 = 1134 pounds (just to compare Trojan's to US8VGC in my
application)
>
> Maybe the next one 18 6V T125's to compare 8 V vs 6V?
>
> Lynn
>
> 104 volts until February....
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Hanson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 11:54 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: High Voltage or High Current-Metro
>
>
> 14 batteries (910lbs) is about max for a Metro with stiffer
springs and
> better brakes. The one I sold had 14 US8VGC's but I got better
longevity
> from the 6Volters. Mark
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:00 AM
> Subject: RE: High Voltage or High Current
>
>
> > On 5 Jan 2004 at 5:28, vinnybrain wrote:
> >
> > > thats why I put airbag spring
> > > inserts in last year.
> >
> > When you suggest 1700 lb of lead in a Geo Metro, you are
talking about a
> > severe overload. The battery mass alone is about as much as
some years
> > weighed in gas trim!
> >
> > There is more to correcting for that than increasing spring
rates or
> > inserting air springs. You are creating a vehicle which is
apt to have
> some
> > dangerous and/or unpredictable handling qualities. Ask Bob
Rice what it
> was
> > like driving the EFP Renault R10s with about that much lead
in them.
> >
> > Then there's the issue of durability; doubling the design
load will be
> > murder on the suspension attachment points and wheel
bearings. You will
> > also get excessive body flex, which will tend to open up
welded joints in
> > the body structure.
> >
> > And then there's brakes. Just wait until you stand on the
pedal and try
> to
> > stop 3000+ lb of Metro with those tiny Metro brakes and
tires. And just
> > what ARE you going to do about tires with higher load
capacity?
> >
> > Besides, I don't know where you'd put all those batteries in
a Metro. You
> > sure won't be able to keep them all low in the chassis. This
will shift
> the
> > center of mass upward, causing greater body pitch and lean.
I can tell
> you
> > from experience that driving a car like that is like riding a
bike while
> > wearing a 35 lb backpack - not very pleasant.
> >
> > I suppose all of this is correctable, if you have the
expertise and money.
> > You can weld in body reinforcement if you know where it's
needed. You can
> > find brakes and tires from some larger car and make them fit.
You can
> make
> > drastic floorpan modifications to find places for the
batteries. But why?
> >
> > It seems to me the practical answers are:
> >
> > 1. Use a moderate to high voltage single string of Optimas or
similar AGMs
> > to make this a relatively short-range, quick and fun EV.
> >
> > 2. Use advanced batteries (NiCd, NiZn, NiMH, possibly LiIon)
to get range
> > without so much mass.
> >
> > 3. Choose a vehicle that can handle the mass better than the
Metro.
> >
> > Not to frighten you, but if you do build this car with that
much battery
> > mass, and without the extensive modification it needs, I
suggest that when
> > you're done with it you junk it. Not only will the weight
have stressed
> the
> > chassis excessively, selling it to someone as a used EV could
leave you
> open
> > to legal liability if he has a collision.
> >
> > Good luck!
> >
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on
vacation, or
> > switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> > 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> > 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> > 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> > Est. yearly US cost to safeguard Persian Gulf oil supply: $50
billion
> > Est. 2001 value of US crude oil imports from Persian Gulf:
$19 billion
> >
> > -- Harper's Index, April 2002
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = =
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
meat wrote:
A bill that would streamline the CARB process for hybrid/EV
manufacturing within the state.
So the Prius can have it's EV-Button back?
A bill that would allow an unlimited number of kit cars to be registered
(currently, there is a limit imposed of 500 cars per year).
Sounds good!
A bill that changes the definition of what an EV or hybrid vehicle is.
You mean the the DOE might stop classifying Hybrids as EVs?!
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/11011
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ev-list-archive/message/9755
A bill that would require cities to get more (or "any," in some cases)
charging stations in place - funds to come from the state. This bill
may be piggybacked on a bill about hydrogen charging, but I'm hoping it
isn't.
Whoo Hoo, "Electric Highway"!?
The issues that I'm running into are educational ones. No one wants to
be linked to any wacko tree-huggers, which is what the EV community is
percieved to be. The EV community is considered to be full of strident
idiots who don't know what they're talking about, so they just talk
louder to make up for it. There are a few dumbasses out there - and
there are certainly some on this list - that continually shoot
themselves in the foot by attempting to link their goofy political
viewpoints to EVs. That's not the way to get laws passed.
Humm, which brings us to something I've been thinking about lately.
How can we hope to "educate" people who are unfamilure with BEV's
if there are no BEV's available for them to experience!?
The Single Thing that bothers me the Most, is that nearly EVeryone
that I mention "EV" to look at me as if I were insane. They honestly
think that they simply don't exist, like UFO's and lil' green men.
And it's not like I can blame them, they have NO (0) BEV exposure.
I bet that we can all agree that the fastest way to get people
interested is with a test drive and the inescapable EV GRIN !!
SO! How about setting up a BEV-Test-Drive Web site, that people
can visit to find local BEV Rentals or BEV owners willing to give
people test-drives or even test-rides!!
I'm thinking something like the EV-Album, perhaps even an addition
to the Album. With a goal to have at least one BEV Test Drive
in each of the 50 states. Even better Each Major City!
( I'll re-post this idea on it's own, as I feel it deserves it. )
Your pal,
Meat.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<snip> from meat's post.
Humm, which brings us to something I've been thinking about lately.
How can we hope to "educate" people who are unfamilure with BEV's
if there are no BEV's available for them to experience!?
The Single Thing that bothers me the Most, is that nearly EVeryone
that I mention "EV" to look at me as if I were insane. They honestly
think that they simply don't exist, like UFO's and lil' green men.
And it's not like I can blame them, they have NO (0) BEV exposure.
I bet that we can all agree that the fastest way to get people
interested is with a test drive and the inescapable EV GRIN !!
SO! How about setting up a BEV-Test-Drive Web site, that people
can visit to find local BEV Rentals or BEV owners willing to give
people test-drives or even test-rides!!
I'm thinking something like the EV-Album, perhaps even an addition
to the Album. With a goal to have at least one BEV Test Drive
in each of the 50 states. Even better Each Major City!
WATT Do You Think?
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great idea! I've let numerous strangers drive my car.
Count me in till they take my Th!nk City back.
Marc
San Francisco
On Jan 8, 2004, at 8:37 PM, Lightning Ryan wrote:
SO! How about setting up a BEV-Test-Drive Web site, that people
can visit to find local BEV Rentals or BEV owners willing to give
people test-drives or even test-rides!!
I'm thinking something like the EV-Album, perhaps even an addition
to the Album. With a goal to have at least one BEV Test Drive
in each of the 50 states. Even better Each Major City!
( I'll re-post this idea on it's own, as I feel it deserves it. )
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The MB80 cycling test results have been posted at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mb80%20cycle%20054.gif.
This can be accessed from the Manzanita Micro download page at
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/download.htm
The battery came up to 60 AHr on a 25 amp discharge test on the 7th cycle
and dropped under 60 AHr on about the 44th cycle. The capacity is now on a
downward trend. The battery temperature is between 30F and 40F for all of
the testing so far.
Thank you Fred Whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for supplying a consumer grade
sample and being patient while the power and weather issues were worked out.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today was round two for an job interview in Santa Clara (South
of me). My emeter said I was fully charged. I unplugged my pack
heaters and the PFC-50 which had already shut its self down
(blue led was on solid).
When I got onto highway 101, I noticed a little more speed for
the same 100 amp setting. The pack voltage was a little higher
than usual. I think my pack likes to be regularly used.
Interesting the differences from day to day, though the pack is
charged the same way and to the same level each time/each night.
I took the Montague exit, dropped off a resume, then headed over
to the favorite (private) charging spot. After plugging in, I
hiked three blocks to the interview. So, I am charging during
the interview. Even if it goes badly, I am in a win situation.
He said I was "working for them", but not really. The background
check has to go through. So I am not being paid until it comes
back with an OK. Though this is a security position, every job I
have gone for is interested in checking your background. A sign
of the post-911 times.
The interview went well. I did have to convince him that I was
not 'over qualified' and that I would not bail on him if the
high-tech economy came back (yea, like that is going to happen).
I told him truthfully that this was a career change. The HR rep
said he liked my professional style and demeanor. I thanked him,
but thought to myself, that is what comes with over 25 years of
experience handling irate customers that think their computer
problems have their hair on fire.
I am to show up tomorrow for another interview (round three)
with the client rep. This site is near Great America (an
Amusement/theme park, surrounded by high-tech firms with a
sprinkling of condos for the Cisco and Sun employees to walk to
work).
I did ask not to be assigned there as it was at my 'travel limit'.
He said later I might be able to change to a client site that's
in Mt view (5 miles closer). I am just thinking ahead for when
my pack is near the three year mark and is running lower in
capacity.
The HR rep said, "You are working for us". But I will not be an
employee until the background check comes back with an OK. So I
am not paid until that is done. Then I am finger printed again,
and references called, ... yadda, yadda, yadda.
I walked back trying to hold myself back from thinking this job
was in the bag. It�s not. But it felt good think I would soon be
able to pay for the things I need. My auto shop 'sez', I need
pads/shoes/disks/rotors $1000. My dentist 'sez' he wants $1000
for a new crown, and has plans for more (I should have been a
tooth doctor, instead of a computer doctor).
After I walked back, I found zero amps going into my pack. The
pack was fully charged and the 40 ahrs were back. I unplugged
and headed over to tomorrow's appointment site. I wanted to
scope-it-out before I lost today's daylight.
An interesting site from the outside. Though as a contractor to
the client, I would not be allowed to plug into any power,
interestingly, in the rear, there was an ICE'd EV parking spot
with an old tall LPI charger. The spot was painted and signed,
but probably back when an employee was renting an EV1. The
oil spot told me the EV spot has been ICE'd for quite a while.
I turned around, took a mileage and ah reading before heading out
toward the highway. Though I was essentially fully charged, this
would be the test to know how much energy would I need to go
home. Or would I be able to make a round trip on one charge.
Heading North on Highway 101, the traffic was in full bloom. This
would be a good example of a worse case scenario. While I crawled
in traffic, fighting for every millimeter, I thought, this
position is for grave-shift. I would be coming in this direction
in the early morning. Yup, it would be the same crawl in this
direction at that time of day too.
When I got home, I had only used 40 ahs. That means I would use
about 80-85 ahs round trip. That will work for now, but not when
the pack is older. I will see how it goes tomorrow. If the site is
OK, I may ask to be reassigned closer (Mt. View) when possible.
That way I could work now, and relocate to a better, closer work
site later. We shall see.
:-zzz
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meat wrote:
The term "wacko tree hugger" isn't generally derogatory - it's a wake up
call. I didn't coin that term, I got it from a lobbyist who doesn't want to
be involved with EVs if those are the people he's going to be representing.
The only people being childish are those that aren't understanding what I'm
writing, or who are responding with idiotic attacks and incendiary comments
- like yours, "pal." I'm not attacking the EV community and I'm not
attacking you. You can continue with your hobby and your correspondence and
your contacts. But rest assured that your hobby will be legislated out of
existence through inactivity or improper activity on the part of those
strident idiots in the EV community.
.I'm a car person. I love the mechanical marvels that propel us around.
I don't want to see EVs or hybrids or home built or kit cars legislated
away. So you go ahead keep on fighting, attacking and attempting to have
your ego justify something I wrote that you obviously misunderstood. You're
in the minority.
Your pal,
Meat.
Begin rant�
An attempt to clarify Meat�s point.
There is bound to be someone to see something political in this, even though
I will try to avoid allusions to political views.
Though personally, I suspect we may be better off as a species to literally
dis-invent the wheel, I also suspect that there are few that would consider
or understand that viewpoint. Modern technology is here, and we must deal
with it. The freedom to invent and modify is precious.
Meat is attempting to make a serious point that I feel the need to try and
clarify for many on the list.
Should vehicle modification be made illegal? This is ultimately Meat�s
point. Tossed about in legislative circles for many years, being driven by
the people that control the auto and energy industries, the element that
would like to take away your right to modify has been out there for a long
time.
There are many in the political arena that would like to legislate out of
existence your ability to modify, or even work on, your personal (or any)
vehicle.
The automakers would love this. You would HAVE to take it to them for any
type of service.
Maybe Meat can provide some details on this for all of you, since he writes
for the kit car industry, which has always fought the powers that be for
its� existence.
I have been an automotive enthusiast/technician for much longer than I have
been involved in EVs and RE, and have been exposed to these issues for many
years.
Be aware that in many other countries it is a big hassle or totally illegal
to make simple changes to your vehicle, like lighting, wheel and tire size,
suspension, and many other things we take for granted.
Though I am certain that I would be considered a �tree hugger� by many, I am
all for our freedom to do what we want with our personal vehicles.
If you want to put a fire-breathing drag race motor in your Nova, that
should be OK.
If you want to rip out the ICE powerplant and turn it into a BEV, that
should also be OK
In the USA, the right to modify your vehicle has always been taken for
granted, if not for this, we never would have seen-- NASCAR, drag racing,
SCCA, or most forms of racing that are now mainstream. And we certainly
wouldn�t have the TV show American Chopper.. (or Suck Amps EV Racing for
that matter)
Powered transportation remains a relatively new technology and open to
political manipulation. To see this, just observe the wide variety of laws
applied to powered bikes and scooters, it is constantly changing, ask any
Sparrow owner. Something like the Segway really throws a wrench in the
works. The technological know-nothings which legislate things will
definitely have �their panties in a bunch� as Meat might say, over something
new that they dimly understand. J
Just like law and medicine, (and politics) most folks are clueless as to how
vehicle and energy technology works. This, as always, makes them easily
manipulated.by the people with the power to write and pass laws.
End rant.
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Updated!
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Expand your wine savvy � and get some great new recipes � at MSN Wine.
http://wine.msn.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson wrote:
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> ...snip
> >
> > Internal resistance rises as the battery discharges. The floodeds have a
> > higher resistance to start with, so it gets large enough to cause a
> > serious voltage sag earlier -- well before the battery is actually dead.
> > The AGMs have lower resistance, so they get closer to dead before their
> > internal resistance rises enough to cause a large voltage drop.
> >
>
> When I'm down to 30% SOC (by emeter), does the 300 amp draw that
> sags the flooded pack below 1.75 vpc hurt the batteries? Much?
It depends (I know, you hate that answer :-)
If no cell goes below 1.75v, then you aren't hurting them; at least not
in the short run. They still have plenty of charge, and are just sagging
due to high internal resistance.
But, if all you have to go by is total pack voltage, and you are just
dividing it by the number of cells to guess at the cell voltage, you
really don't know the voltage of any cell. If some cell goes to zero
volts, then you *are* damaging it. It will start getting hot FAST, and
reverse polarity ("charge" in the wrong direction).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems pretty clear to me that the new evercels are not as good as the
originals.
I wonder if they will be producing another version.
S.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV discussion list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 9:13 PM
Subject: MB80 cycling test results up to cycle 54
> The MB80 cycling test results have been posted at
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/mb80%20cycle%20054.gif.
>
> This can be accessed from the Manzanita Micro download page at
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/download.htm
>
> The battery came up to 60 AHr on a 25 amp discharge test on the 7th cycle
> and dropped under 60 AHr on about the 44th cycle. The capacity is now on a
> downward trend. The battery temperature is between 30F and 40F for all of
> the testing so far.
>
> Thank you Fred Whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for supplying a consumer grade
> sample and being patient while the power and weather issues were worked
out.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 12:53, Lee Hart wrote:
> The GM EV1 was a bigger, heavier car, and so didn't do as well. With
> lead-acid batteries:
> - length 169.8"
> - width 69.3"
> - height 50.5"
> - weight 2922 lbs
> - drag coefficient 0.19
> - efficiency 181 wh/mile
>
> The above efficiency numbers do not take charging efficiency into
> account. Multiply the above efficiencies by 0.90-0.93 for lead-acid to
> get efficiency from the AC wall outlet. The EV-1 with nimh batteries was
> essentially the same, but charging efficiency was much lower due to the
> need to cool the batteries with the air conditioner, making efficiency
> from the AC outlet more like 300 wh/mile.
Lee you aren't often wrong, but I'm going to have to call you on this.
The CHARGER might be 90-93% efficient, but the efficiency from the
outlet also includes that battery charge efficiency. Since Lead-acids
batteries are something like 75-80% your from the outlet efficiency IS
like 67-70%, NOT 90-93%.
In fact the Testing by EV America shows this. They list the EV-1 was
having an efficiency of 164 wh/mile from the battery and 248 wh/mile
from the outlet. Charging efficiency would therefor be 66%, this is
battery efficiency and charger efficiency.
They also show the AC outlet efficiency of the NiMH EV-1 as 373 wh/mile,
making NiMH charge efficiency approx 45% (Yikes!!)
http://avt.inel.gov/fsev/eva/
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just out of curiosity Dave, would you be referring to an overly rude
"pal"? Personally I don't have any "pals" who are consistently rude and
tend to filter them out of my life, so I appear to have missed the posts
you are referring too
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 11:49, David Roden wrote:
> It's generally been the policy on this list that people who waste bandwidth
> by consistently posting off-topic, violating the list charter, attacking
> other list members, or perpetuating flame wars, are shown the door. The
> vast majority of EV hobbyists and pros on this list are thoughtful adults
> who treat each other courteously, so this has happened very, very
> infrequently in the almost 9 years I've been on this list.
>
> But there's a tiny number of people on the net who just enjoy abusing and
> insulting others.
>
> http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/t/troll.html
>
> If an EV list participant persists in this kind of antisocial behavior, the
> simplest way to handle it is to simply ignore his or her posts as if they
> had never crossed. The majority of us, as well-socialized adults, have a
> responsibility to hold our tempers and not respond to flame-bait.
>
> Talk about EVs. Solve EV problems. Ignore rude people. If they don't get
> reactions, they'll either learn to be polite or go elsewhere.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> MPG of Ford's most fuel-efficient 2003 car: 36
> MPG of Ford's 1912 Model T: 35
>
> -- Harper's Index, Sept. 2003
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-01-08 at 16:45, Sam Uzi wrote:
> > Electrons move at the same speed regardless of Voltage.
>
> yeah, I realized "slower" was the wrong term to use as soon as I'd hit the
> "send" button... I meant to say "at a lower rate"/"fewer at a time", but it
> seems even that would not have been correct either
Less pressure or force is probably the simplest way to describe lower
voltage.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I created a calendar from EVS-20 images.
Go to http://eaaev.org to download and print your free copy.
Calendars are big business. One sees co-worker's cubicals with
calendars of their interests. Now you have a color calendar
for your EV Grin-ing pleasure. :-)
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wasn't there something about the inductive charging interface on the EV-1
causing a fairly significant efficiency penalty? I thought this was one of
the other arguments against the inductive design. Also due to the
"dense-pack" battery pack installation, didn't the NiMH EV-1s have to run
the cooling system during charging to keep the batteries from overheating?
Back on the Force side of things:
For a look at the "at the outlet" power requirements of a Force in real
world use, see Tom Hudson's "Monitoring the Car"website at:
http://portev.org/solectria/ho/evmon.htm
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bruce,
Nice calendar, thanks for your efforts.
I printed one out and have in posted in the lab.
Rod
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I created a calendar from EVS-20 images.
> Go to http://eaaev.org to download and print your
> free copy.
>
> Calendars are big business. One sees co-worker's
> cubicals with
> calendars of their interests. Now you have a color
> calendar
> for your EV Grin-ing pleasure. :-)
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hooked up an isolation transformer between my house wiring
and a standard 120v AC charger.
I placed a 220v timer switch BEFORE the transformer.
i.e.
GFCI
House ------ timer ---- X-former ------ charger
wiring ------ switch ----
Problem is that I get some arcing in the timer switch
when I break this circuit. I guess the x-former is
charged, and voltage goes (nearly) infinate on break
as the B field collapses.
Is this a real problem? Can the indoor/outdoor DPST
timer, rated for 40A, handle this small arc?
Is there something I could/should do to reduce this?
It seemed safer to me to switch off the transformer.
No wasted energy (heat) powering it without load.
Reduced active wires outside, in my car-port.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I'd think that a force should be well below EV1.
Much lower power limits. Much smaller battery packs (less weight).<<
EV1s weigh just over 3000#, even in the NiMH models - how much does a Force
weigh?
Only slightly less.... about 2800#. EV1 will certainly
do better at highway speeds due to drag.
The lower power limits on Force will make it better (usually).
I'm breaking in new batteries on my old force, so I have the
current limits set at about 50A. This gives me less than 1AH/mi.
Without the limit I get about 1.1AH/mi, and if I drive like I want
(not like grandma) Its more like 1.2AH/mi. Might be as much
as 30% difference depending on driving style.
(50A limit is more like ultra-grandma driving style)
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Begin rant…
An attempt to clarify Meat’s point.
There is bound to be someone to see something political in this, even
though I will try to avoid allusions to political views.
Though personally, I suspect we may be better off as a species to
literally dis-invent the wheel, I also suspect that there are few that
would consider or understand that viewpoint. Modern technology is
here, and we must deal with it. The freedom to invent and modify is
precious.
Meat is attempting to make a serious point that I feel the need to try
and clarify for many on the list.
Should vehicle modification be made illegal? This is ultimately Meat’s
point. Tossed about in legislative circles for many years, being
driven by the people that control the auto and energy industries, the
element that would like to take away your right to modify has been out
there for a long time.
There are many in the political arena that would like to legislate out
of existence your ability to modify, or even work on, your personal
(or any) vehicle.
The automakers would love this. You would HAVE to take it to them for
any type of service.
Maybe Meat can provide some details on this for all of you, since he
writes for the kit car industry, which has always fought the powers
that be for its’ existence.
I have been an automotive enthusiast/technician for much longer than I
have been involved in EVs and RE, and have been exposed to these
issues for many years.
Be aware that in many other countries it is a big hassle or totally
illegal to make simple changes to your vehicle, like lighting, wheel
and tire size, suspension, and many other things we take for granted.
Though I am certain that I would be considered a “tree hugger” by
many, I am all for our freedom to do what we want with our personal
vehicles.
If you want to put a fire-breathing drag race motor in your Nova, that
should be OK.
If you want to rip out the ICE powerplant and turn it into a BEV, that
should also be OK
In the USA, the right to modify your vehicle has always been taken for
granted, if not for this, we never would have seen-- NASCAR, drag
racing, SCCA, or most forms of racing that are now mainstream. And we
certainly wouldn’t have the TV show American Chopper.. (or Suck Amps
EV Racing for that matter)
Powered transportation remains a relatively new technology and open to
political manipulation. To see this, just observe the wide variety of
laws applied to powered bikes and scooters, it is constantly changing,
ask any Sparrow owner. Something like the Segway really throws a
wrench in the works. The technological know-nothings which legislate
things will definitely have “their panties in a bunch” as Meat might
say, over something new that they dimly understand. J
Just like law and medicine, (and politics) most folks are clueless as
to how vehicle and energy technology works. This, as always, makes
them easily manipulated.by the people with the power to write and pass
laws.
End rant.
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Meat's elloquent response:
What he said.
In California we've been handed an excellent opportunity through our new
governor to promote and protect small manufacturers and kit
manufacturers. From the looks of things, this could last at least six
years or so, which would firmly intrench the industry(ies). We could be
looking at an automotive golden age. I do not intend to waste this chance.
Your pal,
Meat.
--- End Message ---
