EV Digest 3269
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Evercel MB80's
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) A better forum for EV and politics
by Johann Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: force efficiency
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: force efficiency
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC arc supression
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery heater testing
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) e-meter interference?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: which car to convert, was motor mounts
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) DC Christmas Lights
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: e-meter interference?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) BLDC control update
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Prius EV Switch
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Joe and Rich:
I'm delighted that you have the MB80 on test and hope that you will
continue abusing the m100 down to 50% of capacity and tell us how many
cycles that takes and what the degradation curve looks like.
My own experience with the 10 MB80's in my car was much better than what
you are experienceing. The only difference i can think of was that I
was commissioning mine in the 90 degree F temps of the late summer.
They came up to full capacity much quicker and that capacity, at least
on my cycler in summer temps, was more like 70AH than the 60 you are
experiencing.
I haven't driven the car since before Christmas due to travel away from
home. It was a sultry 14 degrees F here in Connecticut this morning and
thats supposed to be near the high for today and tomorrow. Shall take
the car out for a jaunt and see how it likes the cold.
For those considering Evercel, know that you will be very early adopters
and perhaps pioneers with arrows in your back. The company has
announced publicly that it is closing its massachusetss HQ and releasing
all USA employees. So far as I can tell the battery plant in China is
still well financed. how they will support users in the USA remains to
be seen. Hopefully the experience being learned by our testers in White
Lab Coats at manzanita Micro and shared via this forum will take up some
of the slack and remove some of the anecdotal experiences those of us
with less telemetry sometime perpetrate. My own experience with the
batts has been fine altho' I only have a few hundred miles on the pack
and need to get a parallel string of the other 10 batts in the car this
winter. Brrr, that garage seems cold....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote ...
> If no cell goes below 1.75v, then you aren't hurting them; at least not
> in the short run. They still have plenty of charge, and are just sagging
> due to high internal resistance.
>
> But, if all you have to go by is total pack voltage, and you are just
> dividing it by the number of cells to guess at the cell voltage, you
> really don't know the voltage of any cell. If some cell goes to zero
> volts, then you *are* damaging it. It will start getting hot FAST, and
> reverse polarity ("charge" in the wrong direction).
So I wonder -- does any manufacturer make blocks where they have taps for the
cell junctions that could be used for:
Watching the state of cells
Low-current charging up to ideal cell voltage
Yes, it would add to the cost of the blocks and you would need cell-specific
battery management, but given my history with a BADICHEQ (7 years on a pack)
it has to make sense in the cost-savings of not having to replace blocks as
often. And the cost of the electronics and logic must be way down from when I
got the BADICHEQ in 1996.
I wonder ...
--
Mike Bianchi
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:47 AM 1/9/2004 -0500, M Bianchi stated:
So I wonder -- does any manufacturer make blocks where they have taps for
the cell junctions that could be used for:
Watching the state of cells
Low-current charging up to ideal cell voltage
Hmm, maybe a longish sheet metal screw through the top of the battery in
the right places?
it has to make sense in the cost-savings of not having to replace blocks as
often. And the cost of the electronics and logic must be way down from
when I got the BADICHEQ in 1996.
And some of the BMS systems being worked on for LiIon use could be used for
those individual cells as well.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mich,Lee and all,
There is a way to test each cell of a battery. It is very time consuming
and I do it only once a year or when the total voltage of a battery is less
than normal.
This test is known as the BATTERY CADMIUM TEST. It has been used for more
than 70 years, as reference by my Standard Handbook for Electrical
Engineers.
Long Cadmium plated electrodes of about 1/8 inch thick or more are attach to
a volt meter. The electrodes should be thoroughly corroded before used by
aging it several days in battery solution.
This test is perform by:
1. Read the full voltage of battery - pos to neg
2. Read from positive electrod to first cellby inserting electrod into 1st
cell acid.
3. Read Positive Post to 2nd cell.
4. Read Positive post to 3nd cell.
Example of reading my Trojan T-145's 6 volt battery that have rested for 24
hours after charging:
Battery Volts - Pos Post to Neg Post = 6.30 volts
Pos Post to 1st Cell = 1.84 volts
Pos Post to 2nd Cell = 3.94 volts
Pos Post to 3rd Cell = 6.06 volts
Subtract 6.30 - 6.06 = 0.24
Add 0.24 + 1.84 = 2.08 volts
Sub 3.94 - 1.84 = 2.10 volts
Sub 6.06 - 3.94 = 2.12 volts
Total = 6.30 volts
The cell voltage measurements are than correct as they add up to the full
battery voltage.
You will note that the 1st cell is lower than the others, this is normal
which is call by the selfdischarge from positive to negative.
During charging, these cell voltages will be closer, cause by electrons
going from the negative to the positive.
In a long string, where the first battery on the negative side with have
less voltage than the last battery on the positive side which is noted just
after battery charger shuts off.
When battery sets at rest the battery voltage will increase on the negative
side.
To detect this voltage difference, you will have to have a set of batterys
that are balance or factory balance within 0.01 volt.
Install the string of batterys with the lower voltage at the negative end
and higher voltage at the positive end, so as they will become more in
balance.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 1:05 AM
Subject: Re: Mike's electric adventure / standard battery thread
> Michael Hoskinson wrote:
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > ...snip
> > >
> > > Internal resistance rises as the battery discharges. The floodeds have
> > > a
> > > higher resistance to start with, so it gets large enough to cause a
> > > serious voltage sag earlier -- well before the battery is actually
> > > dead.
> > > The AGMs have lower resistance, so they get closer to dead before
> > > their
> > > internal resistance rises enough to cause a large voltage drop.
> > >
> >
> > When I'm down to 30% SOC (by emeter), does the 300 amp draw that
> > sags the flooded pack below 1.75 vpc hurt the batteries? Much?
>
> It depends (I know, you hate that answer :-)
>
> If no cell goes below 1.75v, then you aren't hurting them; at least not
> in the short run. They still have plenty of charge, and are just sagging
> due to high internal resistance.
>
> But, if all you have to go by is total pack voltage, and you are just
> dividing it by the number of cells to guess at the cell voltage, you
> really don't know the voltage of any cell. If some cell goes to zero
> volts, then you *are* damaging it. It will start getting hot FAST, and
> reverse polarity ("charge" in the wrong direction).
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
moved to the politics forum.
There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
they get out of hand as well. A message board would
organize all that and people can rant and rave all
they want in the appropriate forums.
It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
and technical people that we use such a relatively
old means of large group communication.
If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
money together from donations to start it up.
Thoughts?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:29 AM 1/9/2004 -0800, Johann Joseph stated:
Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
politics.
...
It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
and technical people that we use such a relatively
old means of large group communication.
No, it's called effective use of time. Using a web browser to read text
email is a PITA. For those on dialup, it's excruciatingly slow. For
others, it means remembering to fire up the web browser and go look.
Having the msgs be delivered direct to the email box is quick and easy.
Ignoring stupid threads is very quick. Either use the 'delete' key, or use
your email readers filter system to ignore the thread.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
>> The above efficiency numbers do not take charging efficiency into
>> account. Multiply the above efficiencies by 0.90-0.93 for lead-acid to
>> get efficiency from the AC wall outlet.
> Lee you aren't often wrong, but I'm going to have to call you on this.
> The CHARGER might be 90-93% efficient, but the efficiency from the
> outlet also includes that battery charge efficiency. Since Lead-acids
> batteries are something like 75-80% your from the outlet efficiency IS
> like 67-70%, NOT 90-93%.
Ok, Peter, you got me! (Gee, and I had a perfect record all year :-)
But you're right. Charging efficiency has to include both the charger
and the battery's losses. For lead-acid, charging efficiency should be
around 75-90% (depending on type of battery, current, and whether you
equalize or not). LiIons seem to be as high or higher. Nimh and nicads
are lower. The really bad numbers for the EV-1 nimh are a result of
running the air conditioner during charging.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
>
> Wasn't there something about the inductive charging interface on
> the EV-1 causing a fairly significant efficiency penalty?
The big Magnechargers were 90-93% efficient at full power. However,
part-load efficiency was much lower. A charger spends *most* of its time
at less than full load (like 2 hours in bulk, 4 hours in finish and
equalize). There were a lot of pumps, fans, extra stages etc. that kept
on consuming power even when not at full power.
> I thought this was one of the other arguments against the inductive
> design.
There is nothing wrong with inductive coupling per se. If you are going
to build an isolated charger, then there is no penalty for putting half
the transformer in the car and the other half in the paddle.
The Magnecharger was a wonderful tour de force in sophisticated
state-of-the-art charger design. However, it was a first design by a
company that had never made chargers before. There were lots of mistakes
and problems. If there had been a 2nd design, it could have been a lot
better. Instead, GM tried to ram an unfinished design down everyone's
throat as the 'standard' way to charge EVs.
> Also due to the "dense-pack" battery pack installation, didn't the
> NiMH EV-1s have to run the cooling system during charging to keep
> the batteries from overheating?
Yes. The EV1 had no provisions for thermal management of the batteries.
With lead-acid, they couldn't heat them in the winter. With nimh, they
couldn't cool them in the summer.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> I hooked up an isolation transformer between my house wiring
> and a standard 120v AC charger... Problem is that I get some
> arcing in the timer switch when I break this circuit.
The way to fix this is to put an MOV across the transformer primary or
the switch contacts (across the transformer is preferred). If you happen
to turn off the switch at the instant when transformer current is high,
then the inductive 'kick' is absorbed by the MOV and not the switch.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm has already set-up a message board for this purpose.
Nobody has used it yet.
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Johann Joseph [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 12:30 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: A better forum for EV and politics
>
>
>Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
>Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
>catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
>politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
>section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
>thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
>moved to the politics forum.
>
>There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
>as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
>they get out of hand as well. A message board would
>organize all that and people can rant and rave all
>they want in the appropriate forums.
>
>It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
>and technical people that we use such a relatively
>old means of large group communication.
>
>If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
>money together from donations to start it up.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oops forgot
Ryan's board,
www.evsource.com
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Johann Joseph [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 12:30 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: A better forum for EV and politics
>
>
>Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
>Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
>catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
>politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
>section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
>thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
>moved to the politics forum.
>
>There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
>as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
>they get out of hand as well. A message board would
>organize all that and people can rant and rave all
>they want in the appropriate forums.
>
>It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
>and technical people that we use such a relatively
>old means of large group communication.
>
>If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
>money together from donations to start it up.
>
>Thoughts?
>
>__________________________________
>Do you Yahoo!?
>Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
>http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M Bianchi wrote:
> does any manufacturer make blocks where they have taps for the
> cell junctions that could be used for:
> Watching the state of cells
> Low-current charging up to ideal cell voltage
Yes; most large industrial lead-acid batteries have individual cell
connections available.
You can add cell connections to just about any battery. You just have to
be willing to drill some holes in the case, to tap into the inter-cell
connectors.
> battery management... given my history with a BADICHEQ (7 years on
> a pack) it has to make sense in the cost-savings of not having to
> replace blocks as often. And the cost of the electronics and logic
> must be way down from when I got the BADICHEQ in 1996.
>
> I wonder ...
Same here! I believe you can double the life of a pack with proper
management at the individual battery level. You could probably improve
it still further if you could readily monitor and replace individual
cells.
As electronics keeps getting cheaper, more and better battery management
becomes practical. Yet, the philosophy of most manufacturers is to do as
*little* management as possible.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The page describing details of these heaters:
http://www.metricmind.com/heater.htm
Victor
acid_lead wrote:
>
> Oh yes, great data Ralph! So the heaters are about 4 ohms then.
> The display shows exactly the info I'm interested in for ongoing
> battery monitoring. Good choice.
>
> Your BMS is already packed with features, but one more to consider
> would be a warning of exceeding a maximum spread between highest and
> lowest individual block voltage. This would be the best indication of
> a weak battery since the average voltage moves around with SOC and
> amps. Lee Hart's Batt Bridge (2 resistors and a light) can do this on
> a coarse level.
>
> I guess while I'm whining I'll beg for something that keeps the
> battery heaters off for most of the bulk charge phase to get the most
> out the limited wall power. Then the heaters in a perfect world would
> kick in as the charger current falls to provide a uniform and
> consistent battery temperature for the charger's finish voltage
> setting. Maybe your BMS already does this, I confess that I don't
> understand some of the lingo...
>
> -GT
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Joe Smalley writes:
> > >
> > > What is the heater rating in watts? Amps?
> >
> > 12v AC or DC, 36 watts, 3 amps.
> > Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have (finally) started to clean up some of the wiring in my truck.
One project was to put the e-meter in the dashboard, and along the way I
rewired it with what I thought would be "good" cable.
The problem is now when I'm driving, the voltage reads high. As in as
soon as I start moving, the displayed voltage goes up 20-30 volts. This
interference seems to be from the controller (big Raptor)... worst under
light loads, and if I get to wide open throttle, the displayed voltage
will immediately drop back to something reasonable.
Before I rewired things, I had the reverse problem, but not as bad. It
used to be that under big loads (high motor current) the displayed
voltage would drop maybe 5-10 volts below actual value... just enough to
make me think there was something wrong with the pack.
Previous wiring was separate cables for power (from DCP dc/dc), current
(from shunt) and voltage (from pre-scaler). Each cable was 18 gauge PA
speaker cable, with the red & black wires slightly twisted inside an
outer jacket.
The new and "improved" cable is scrap I came upon that is marked for 300
volts. Inside the outer jacket are 3 groups of wires, with a foil shield
around each group. Each of these groups consists of 2 insulated wires
(maybe 20-22 gauge) and a bare wire gently twisted together. Maybe an
audio 'snake' cable? So these 3 groups took the place of the 3 separate
cables.
More twisting, extra shielding, and ... worse results. Hmmmm.
What type of cabling do other people use? I thought about network
cabling (i.e. CAT5) as it is very tightly twisted, but it is a much
smaller gauge wire and not rated for the voltage. Do other people have
similar interference or am I just unlucky?
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It seems to me that this has been brought up before and as a group we
decided we really like what we have, and do not want to switch to a system
which would be less convenient for many. I don't know what snitz or
vbulletin are, but if I had to open a browser to get to the evlist
messages I would unsubscribe. I have browsers on a PC, on a unix system
and on my Mac, but I almost never use them for e-mail. I don't like all
the junk the intrudes via html code, whether you want to see it or not.
Why would an evlist want a section for diesels? Is there a battery
powered diesel available now?
Gail
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Johann Joseph wrote:
> Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
> Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
> catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
> politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
> section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
> thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
> moved to the politics forum.
>
> There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
> as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
> they get out of hand as well. A message board would
> organize all that and people can rant and rave all
> they want in the appropriate forums.
>
> It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
> and technical people that we use such a relatively
> old means of large group communication.
>
> If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
> money together from donations to start it up.
>
> Thoughts?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The american way.....If it ain`t broke fix it!!!!
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 6:02 PM
Subject: Re: A better forum for EV and politics
>
> It seems to me that this has been brought up before and as a group we
> decided we really like what we have, and do not want to switch to a system
> which would be less convenient for many. I don't know what snitz or
> vbulletin are, but if I had to open a browser to get to the evlist
> messages I would unsubscribe. I have browsers on a PC, on a unix system
> and on my Mac, but I almost never use them for e-mail. I don't like all
> the junk the intrudes via html code, whether you want to see it or not.
>
> Why would an evlist want a section for diesels? Is there a battery
> powered diesel available now?
>
> Gail
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Johann Joseph wrote:
>
> > Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
> > Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
> > catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
> > politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
> > section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
> > thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
> > moved to the politics forum.
> >
> > There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
> > as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
> > they get out of hand as well. A message board would
> > organize all that and people can rant and rave all
> > they want in the appropriate forums.
> >
> > It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
> > and technical people that we use such a relatively
> > old means of large group communication.
> >
> > If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
> > money together from donations to start it up.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth,
There's a guy at work who mentioned that he wished he had an
electric, this about the time that he was trying to figure out a
way to get the heater hose unstuck from the side of his engine
where it had melted on (lots of antifreeze on the ground). One
of his six cars (this car) is a 240Z, so I will print out your
email to point him to your website below. Nice website! Keep up
the good work. Maybe your project will serve as inspiration for
an electric 240Z in his camp.
Chuck
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 9:08 AM
Subject: Re: which car to convert, was motor mounts
> Hi Jeff,
>
> I am a little over a year into a '72 240Z conversion. It has
been a
> lot more difficult (and expensive) than my truck conversion,
however,
> the car will be simply stunning when I'm done - I'm doing a
full
> restoration alongside the conversion. While the 300ZX got
80's-ified,
> it is still a cool car and I would say go for it! Everyone
does
> trucks, no one does Z or ZXs. Pictures of my progress on the Z
up at
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm My 2 volts worth
>
> Seth
>
>
> On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 11:17 AM, Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> > I have 2 options on conversion, an '88 mitsubishi truck or an
87
> > 300zx. I would like the lists' opinions on the 300zx. It is
sporty and
> > has the engine out already. I am worried about how difficult
to fit
> > the batteries. The truck is in daily use right now because my
Grand-am
> > needs a transmission but when I fix the grand am the truck
would be
> > easier. Both are rear wheel drive and the truck has a racing
history
> > so it has reinforcments, roll cage not comfy. Either way, I
want a
> > tire smoker.
> >
> > "transmission of road vibration to chassis" hadn't concidered
that.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
> '72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
> http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> But, if all you have to go by is total pack voltage, and you
are just
> dividing it by the number of cells to guess at the cell
voltage, you
> really don't know the voltage of any cell. If some cell goes to
zero
> volts, then you *are* damaging it. It will start getting hot
FAST, and
> reverse polarity ("charge" in the wrong direction).
I've been thinking about what Lee said a few days ago in response
to a query about whether it is bad practise to drive on weak
cells. I agree, it is bad practise, but in fact, I have at least
two weak cells in my 2.5-3 year old pack right now, and I think
one of those cells has been low capacity (fewer amp-hours) for a
good year or more. In my previous pack, I ran a good half year
on a battery with a weak cell (~50min @ 75A for a US2300 6V'er).
Problem then: finding a spare roughly-same-age battery out there
somewhere in Bay Area-Land. Problem now: have four spares
bought with the pack, but cycle duty has been quite different
(very light - the plates look nearly new in the filler holes),
and I have no battery management system as of yet, and the reg
scene looks like it could be more trouble than it's worth. So
I'll have to use a light bulb or somesuch across them
(suggestions?) for awhile if the spares run too a high a voltage
towards the end-of-charge. A decent BMS would really help out!
As for looming disaster running this way, I don't see it, at
least in batteries of this type and size. I know I'm running
down at least one of the cells every night on my 11-mile (or more
if errands) roundtrip to work, which has one steep 300A(battery)
climb for a minute or two on the way to work, and the looming 45
sec 300-350A climb for my apt hill on the way back. The slow
climb up my hill (12mph, keep the foot backed off; flooring
doesn't help, as there is no more voltage) bothers me more
(although late at night the impatient gas car drivers are scarce)
than what the weak cells do inside - they're toast. All my
experience leads me to conclude that they heat up ten or twenty
degrees. I can feel the cells are warmer. I rather doubt I'm
reversing them, as they bounce back within a few seconds in the
voltage dept. However, I wouldn't want to drive them forever
(miles or time) that way.
I look in the filler holes for those bad cells (sg is <1170), and
I see a lot of brown, but the odd part is, it's on top of the
separators, not the negative plates, which just seem more or less
gray. I don't think I can even see the positive plates. Does
where the brown is give some indication as to what caused the
cells to fail? I'm getting quite suspicious that in the
VoltsRabbit configuration, batteries 3 and 4 (the two bad ones,
and 4 was the first one to fail in pack 1) are right above the
nice warm motor, and it may be warm enough at the bottom of the
batteries to cause fatigue or differential charging vertically
across the batteries. Sound reasonable or not, and what to do?
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Walls commented:
"... Although it moves around quite a bit, our dispatchers get really
excited if the error exceeds a few hundred milli-seconds. And BTW, we are
the power line timekeeper for the Western States Stability Conference which
contains essentially everything west of the Rockies in the US, southwestern
Canada and a little bit of northwestern Mexico."
In '70-'71, we were bidding to sell gas turbine peakers to Mexico.
They had to be derated to 5/6 power at 3000 rpm to accommodate their
50 Hz grid. They were planning eventually going to 60 cycle, but I've
not heard that they've done it.
More personally, who knows why PC clocks not only don't use power line
time base (not to mention the portables I've always used), but are
less accurate than a cheap watch ? (Disk access stops the PC clock in
really old machines). WinXP updates automatically on new machines. Got
one for Christmas, but have to keep using the old machine because the
new one has no RS-232, printer port or floppy drive. DOS works though.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sam Uzi wrote:
>
> <dipstick question>
>
> the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates (I
> presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer time? a
> matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
>
> </dipstick question>
FWIW, electrons moving slower means lower current, not lower voltage.
Less quantity of them (than in other conductor) would constitute less
voltage between these conductors.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can biodeisel be used as an electrolyte? If it can wouldn't it be more
enviro friendly?
Tom
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: A better forum for EV and politics
>
> It seems to me that this has been brought up before and as a group we
> decided we really like what we have, and do not want to switch to a system
> which would be less convenient for many. I don't know what snitz or
> vbulletin are, but if I had to open a browser to get to the evlist
> messages I would unsubscribe. I have browsers on a PC, on a unix system
> and on my Mac, but I almost never use them for e-mail. I don't like all
> the junk the intrudes via html code, whether you want to see it or not.
>
> Why would an evlist want a section for diesels? Is there a battery
> powered diesel available now?
>
> Gail
>
>
> On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Johann Joseph wrote:
>
> > Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
> > Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
> > catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
> > politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
> > section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
> > thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
> > moved to the politics forum.
> >
> > There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
> > as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
> > they get out of hand as well. A message board would
> > organize all that and people can rant and rave all
> > they want in the appropriate forums.
> >
> > It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
> > and technical people that we use such a relatively
> > old means of large group communication.
> >
> > If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
> > money together from donations to start it up.
> >
> > Thoughts?
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, Jim, you're scaring me. I've got DCP and 12 ga.
wiring to the E-meter. Normally, we point to needing
the diode & electrolytic caps. setup, but with the
isolated DCP supply, I hope I don't have the same
problem!
Hope it gets licked...
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have (finally) started to clean up some of the
> wiring in my truck.
>
> One project was to put the e-meter in the dashboard,
> and along the way I
> rewired it with what I thought would be "good"
> cable.
>
> The problem is now when I'm driving, the voltage
> reads high. As in as
> soon as I start moving, the displayed voltage goes
> up 20-30 volts. This
> interference seems to be from the controller (big
> Raptor)... worst under
> light loads, and if I get to wide open throttle, the
> displayed voltage
> will immediately drop back to something reasonable.
>
> Before I rewired things, I had the reverse problem,
> but not as bad. It
> used to be that under big loads (high motor current)
> the displayed
> voltage would drop maybe 5-10 volts below actual
> value... just enough to
> make me think there was something wrong with the
> pack.
>
> Previous wiring was separate cables for power (from
> DCP dc/dc), current
> (from shunt) and voltage (from pre-scaler). Each
> cable was 18 gauge PA
> speaker cable, with the red & black wires slightly
> twisted inside an
> outer jacket.
>
> The new and "improved" cable is scrap I came upon
> that is marked for 300
> volts. Inside the outer jacket are 3 groups of
> wires, with a foil shield
> around each group. Each of these groups consists of
> 2 insulated wires
> (maybe 20-22 gauge) and a bare wire gently twisted
> together. Maybe an
> audio 'snake' cable? So these 3 groups took the
> place of the 3 separate
> cables.
>
> More twisting, extra shielding, and ... worse
> results. Hmmmm.
>
> What type of cabling do other people use? I thought
> about network
> cabling (i.e. CAT5) as it is very tightly twisted,
> but it is a much
> smaller gauge wire and not rated for the voltage. Do
> other people have
> similar interference or am I just unlucky?
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1992 Chevy S10
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I ran my new control on the dyno today at
27.6 Volts and 32Amps for 7 hours.
I would have cranked up the current but our
new IR camera required some installation so I could
see the hot spots.
The FET's (60V TO-247) where only 60C with NO
heatsink.
I also can add a parallel FET to increase current
capacity (it was included in the board layout).
So it looks like this control will easily do 100A
continuous with 250-350Amp peak.
A very interesting Go-cart control for BLDC motors,
who's interested?
P.S. the next circuit board will have 70V FET's
and will easily run on a 48V system.
Rod
Rich, a really mean minibike from hell?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neil Gover wrote:
>
> As I recall at EVS20 the Toyota rep claimed that the EV Switch was not implemented
> on the North American models because it was feared that someone would turn it on and
> then immediately go on the highway and get rear-ended in a collision leading to a
> lawsuit blaming the manufacturer for the lack of speed. The fear of the
> unpredictability of the US legal system made it easier to simply eliminate this
> feature. This switch would enable drivers to travel in the no-fuel areas in some
> congested cities in Europe and Japan.
> Neil Gover
> Still working on my S-10 conversion
>
May be in Priuses imported to the US there is a socket under dash
this button just plugs into (to get rig of a button it is cheapest
for the manufacturer just remove it, but have universal harness for
all cars rather than two different harnesses).
Is there any European Prius driver on the list to tell where
this button is connected to?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
