EV Digest 3271
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) was/ Lee's BMS/ H.O contest
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: External battery warmer
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: BLDC control update
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: The Road To California Is Open For EV Business
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by "Brian D. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: California Legislation
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: California Legislation
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) (OT) A better forum for EV and politics
by Martin Jackson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Battery Choices
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: Battery Choices
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: (OT) A better forum for EV and politics
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Battery Choices
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Battery Choices
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Choices
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Battery Choices
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) electric bus on eBay
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: electric bus on eBay
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) E-Woody take a hit!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> As for myself, I didn't enter because I couldn't find the contest
> details on the quoted website.
>
Hi Judebert
I couldn't find the details either but then my computer is missing something
as I get a missing "flash.osc" and then it closes, . But as for the rules,
last year the H.O. was required to make electricity to power
something. Try clicking on events and contests . If your in Florida I'm
having a EV rally in April, and all are invited.
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
> Judebert
> EVirgin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for that info, Roland. That is very timely; I'm just
finishing off my battery insulation and it has become obvious
that I'll need more heat than I have planned. It is nice to know
how to calculate that.
FWIW, I took the heat wires out of an old electric blanket and
measured their power consumption. Each side of the queen sized
blanket had 56 feet of wire. Wires from one side ran 36 watts at
room temperature, 55 watts when thrown outside at -15C. For
unknown reason, the wire from the other side only burned 25 watts
(at room temp). Its resting resistance was 3.8K compared to 1.5K
for the other side.
The wires have two parallel conductors, presumably separated by a
resistive medium, since they each measure 15 ohms end to end but
1.5K one to the other. I connected both ends to a plug to do my
wattage measurements, such that the inner conductors formed
parallel loops. I didn't try 120VAC across the 15 ohm conection...
Bottom line, electric blankets are pretty wimpy for heating
batteries.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Chris,
There is a BTUH loss formula you can used to calculate the heat lost between
a internal and external surface:
Btuh = SF x u x TD
...snip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For a source for cheap BLDC motors, try converting an automobile alternator
to 3-phase BLDC. One local Portlander has done this and has 2 alternators
on a mini go-cart, each alternator motor driving a rear wheel. It goes like
a bat outta hell. He also designed his own BLDC motor control/drive.
There will be a lot of interest in cheap powerful BLDC motor controllers as
B&S comes out with its BLDC ETEK motors this year.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> >From talking to people on the street , the thing that is on the minds
most
> is running out of juice on the street, . Like a spare tire, ( which I
don't
> carry because of the added weight) they want to know they have a way out.
> Now I'm just throwing out ideas , but if a small fuel cell with 1 gallon H
> was in the trunk ( already starting to sound like a bad idea) , that could
> be used as a back up for running out of juice this might help sell
I still think that the right solution for this problems is for gas sations
to have one 'Electric' pump - a charge controller capable of dumping
300-500A at traction voltages. Almost all batteries will accept rapid
charging when they are 'dead empty' - and a 500A jolt for 5 minutes might be
just the thing to get you enough juice to cruise home on. They could charge
for the electric fill, just like they would for a gas one.
I doubt you could make a hydrogen fuel cell that put out enough power to
justify the parasitic weight. Fuel cells just aren't that great, energy
density wise, and they require a bunch of support stuff.
> BEV's . I have not been so hot on hydrogen as it just seems like another
> way of not doing anything , just wait till "they" do something , but I'm
> starting to see it a little their way. Open you mind and let your brain
> fall out for a minute :-) . A battery EV with fuel cell adding on, drive
> and plug like you do now but when you want to go on the lone trip you run
on
> the H, so it cost a lot for the long trip , . I would be quite happy with
a
Ultimately, I still think the right answer for this is traction power on the
interstates - or a autocar program that makes it easy to put your car on a
transcontinental train when you're going long-haul. Maybe even a
packet-switching train system with each car being self-routed? But, that's
science fiction. ;-)
> 240v 50 amp plug and a book , and this seems easer than a H gas station
but
> that's me. When I put my brain back in my head it all looks like a lot of
Americans like instant gratification.
> money . like a car that can be driven in the water, nice idea but not
> practical for everybody . BEV's work so well when used for what they do
> best, 30 miles runs ( hat's off you ev's who do more ) . Fast charging is
I agree, EVs make the most since for around-town commuting. But, I was able
to drive long distances using a APU/generator trailer, and while there are a
lot of issues to be worked out (I hope to put some serious time this winter
into working some of them out, I'd like to make a cross-country trip in my
EV next year) it was certainly workable.
> here now, and doesn't cost near as much. What I tell people sometimes is
"
> the right tool for the job, need a saw , don't pick up a hammer , need a
> hammer don't try and use a saw, " . TV ad for BEV's , carpenter and
> helper, carpenter working with new hybrid hammer/saw and not doing very
> good, helper " Joe , your new tool seem to be giving you a lot of
trouble,
> what gives " Joe " Well Steve it's a hybrid " as Joe tries to nail a nail
> with saw flopping around , " Its the new way" Steve " sounds like those
hi
> bread cars , you can't plug them in , can't fix them without a collage
> degree , charge the batteries with gas " . 2nd carpenter comes in with 3
I really like this ad idea. Maybe we could get some nonprofit to back it up?
I'm sure with the resources available to this list, we could prepare some 30
second ads, then maybe a nonprofit could convince the TV stations to run
them occasionally as a tax write-off. Boost public awareness for sure!
> I my shoot this one for EVTV ( thanks Bob for the ev footage , so far
your
> the only one to send anything) .
Steve, if you seriously want EV footage, I have ten hours of unedited video
of us building QM. But it's unedited, and poorly shot using a hand video
camera. I also have some Tango footage and some Woodburn 2002 footage
including the infamous run down the racetrack.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
In other news, I go to California to pick up my new (to me) VW Eurovan,
which I am seriously considering making into a series hybrid. Does anyone
have any thoughts on this?
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Problem is that unless something has changed, for a given amount of mass or
volume you can have more back up energy on board if you store it in a
battery then if you store it in a H2 tank and fuel cell system. I think
even lead batteries are better then currently available (non experimental)
H2 storage systems.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of 1sclunn
>From talking to people on the street , the thing that is on the minds most
> is running out of juice on the street, . Like a spare tire, ( which I > >
> don't
> carry because of the added weight) they want to know they have a way out.
> Now I'm just throwing out ideas , but if a small fuel cell with 1 gallon H
> was in the trunk ( already starting to sound like a bad idea) , that could
> be used as a back up for running out of juice this might help sell
> BEV's . I have not been so hot on hydrogen as it just seems like another
> way of not doing anything , just wait till "they" do something , but I'm
> starting to see it a little their way. Open you mind and let your brain
> fall out for a minute :-) . A battery EV with fuel cell adding on, drive
> and plug like you do now but when you want to go on the lone trip you run
> on
> the H, so it cost a lot for the long trip , . I would be quite happy with
> a
> 240v 50 amp plug and a book , and this seems easer than a H gas station >
> but
> that's me.
<< snip >>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Only Two weeks left! time to start warming up those batteries. We will be at
NEDRA's season opener in Vegas with "revolt" drag bike , 192 volts , two
e-Teks, baby zilla with series / parallel switching. Hoping to get break
into the high 12's and over 100 mph.
Brian D. Hall
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
"Brian D. Hall" wrote:
> Only Two weeks left! time to start warming up those batteries. We will be at
> NEDRA's season opener in Vegas with "revolt" drag bike , 192 volts , two
> e-Teks, baby zilla with series / parallel switching. Hoping to get break
> into the high 12's and over 100 mph.
> Brian D. Hall
Good luck with the bike and it's improvements, it sure sounds like the right
combination....be safe and have fun!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, it wouldn't have made any difference at all. One of the many
problems with EVers is that many of them would rather bicker among
themselves rather than push forward. It's tiny little minds and
incomprehensible pettiness that keeps EVs as nothing more than a
splinter group.
The reason that automobile manufacturers and many other groups have such
strong lobbys is because they know how and when to work together.
Any idiot who is more concerned about someone's name rather than the
furtherance of an industry is beneath contempt. I'll go the extra step
and say that it's exactly the same as disagreeing ith someone because of
the color of their skin. No one looks good in a white pointy hat
carrying a burning cross.
But hey, keep on being petty. It makes everyone who isn't look much
smarter.
Your pal,
Meat.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<Just out of curiosity Dave, would you be referring to an overly rude
"pal"? Personally I don't have any "pals" who are consistently rude and
tend to filter them out of my life, so I appear to have missed the posts
you are referring to>>
Peter, would it make any difference if it was signed, "your pal, Shawn Bell"?
It's true the EVDL doesn't get a lot of pseudonymous listees, so that may a
bone with some.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 2004-01-10 at 00:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<Just out of curiosity Dave, would you be referring to an overly rude
> "pal"? Personally I don't have any "pals" who are consistently rude and
> tend to filter them out of my life, so I appear to have missed the posts
> you are referring to>>
>
> Peter, would it make any difference if it was signed, "your pal, Shawn Bell"?
> It's true the EVDL doesn't get a lot of pseudonymous listees, so that may a
> bone with some.
Naw, I don't care if someone wants to hide behind a pseudonym. Though I
do think it's a bit presumptuous to hide behind a pseudonym and then
call yourself everyone's "pal", especially when they tend to be
generally disagreeable.
No my problem is with anyone that joins this list, a list who's charter
states that it's specifically about building and operating EVs and NOT
about politics or EV appropriateness, and then consistently ignores the
charter. I especially have problems with people are consistently rude
on this list.
Now I'll admit that I have been rude on occasion and that I sometimes
drift off topic (I think most of us have at one time or another), but I
like to think that occasionally I contribute something useful to the
list.
People that never contribute anything but insults and off topic rants
tend to aggravate me, so rather than wasting bandwidth responding, or
not responding and just being annoyed, I filter them out.
FWIW I also filter out people that come to the list and ask for help and
then complain and refuse that help because it conflicts with their
personal view of reality. People who feel that the laws of physics
don't apply to them because they never bothered to learn them or because
they were written long ago so surely we can 'improve' upon them.
This includes those people that keep asking the same question because
they didn't like the answer the first time and those folks that keep
posting over unity nonsense to the list.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Johann Joseph <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Do mobs of students still watch yogi in the dorm lounge ?
"Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
Like snitz or vbulletin ?"
Golly, I can't imagine someone having the time to spend on keeping up
with gimmicks like this. If the list went this way, everyone would
have to upgrade their software, read the material on how to do it,
develop new management techniques and many of the experts would
disappear like the 35 year old guys.
"That way messages can be catagorized and there can be a seperate
section for politics."
It happens that no one on the list wants to have the opposite opinion
shoved up their nose and eventually, these ranters give up or are sent
away.
"Sticky notes can be used for a newbie section."
Wouldn't that be sooo cool.....?
"And forums can be moderated so that if a thread gets out of hand and
turns political it can be moved to the politics forum."
Where do you have the time to take over this task ? And, who is going
to read this ?
Although the moderators generally differ in their opinion from others,
they don't act until things get really annoying. That way, most
ranters will go away. Oops, I am responding, aren't I ?
"There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
they get out of hand as well."
Personally, I've never thought those two topics were out of place
given the broad interests of many on the list. Allowing topics like
these widen the range of contributors. At least 4 valuable
contributors have hybrids and actually know what they are talking
about. A clean, low sulphur diesel plug in hybrid has more chance of
getting sold than an EV and doesn't ruffle feathers on either side of
the spectrum. And, the understanding of the components is needed to
evaluate the complete system.
"A message board would organize all that and people can rant and rave
all they want in the appropriate forums."
Ranting serves no purpose. Write yourself a note if it makes you feel
better. I have a file containing 80 k of my messages that no one has
(ever wanted to) read.
"It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
and technical people that we use such a relatively
old means of large group communication."
Speech is relatively old, but I'm not giving it up. Plain text is very
readable and doesn't taint well composed technical writing. HTML and
phonetic spelling don't add information and the purpose of reading the
list is half learning and half the company of intelligent friends.
"If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
money together from donations to start it up."
Why ? My mother used to wear lipstick all the time. Well, who wants
to kiss warm wax.
______________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> EvListers,
> Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice and I
> would like the lists input. Many of you have real world experience with
the
> various batteries available and I would like your opinnion. I have
designed a BMS
> that can be reprogramed for any technology.
>
> My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I will be
> using a Zilla 1 K controler and a single string of batteries. When done it
will
> have a full belly pan for aerodynamics.
> I am planning on a total of 22 batteries for a 264 volt pack. I
originally
> cosidered Evercells but availability seems to be a problem.
> Lithium offerings still seem to have problems not the least of which is
price.
> The remaining choices are Optimas, Exide Orbitals, or other SLA battery.
> My daily commute is 35 miles one way mostly freeway with charging at
work. I
> would like the maximum range to be at least 75 miles in case of emergency.
>
> What are your suggestions and why?
*** WARNING: unpopular answer ahead ***
If you want a single (not hybrid) battery pack, I have to say SAFT Nicad
Why?
Well, the NiZn batteries in my car are great. But they aren't made any more,
and from all those who have been playing with the newer NiZn batteries, it
sounds like they have serious reliability problems, especially in a
intermittant duty cycle. With the closing of their U.S. branch, support is
likely to be chancy at best. I'm holding my evercell stock, but I'm not
buying any more, at least not until they produce a battery with reliability
to match the batteries in my car.
The Thunder Sky lithiums have their own set of problems. People playing with
them have found significant challenges in charging and discharging them -
getting EV-scale currents out of them for very long seems to involve a
willingness to have some very hot batteries, and there are some serious
safety concerns with lithium that still haven't been addressed to my
satisfaction. In addition, no one actually knows what their reliability is
going to look like! They seem to have a very high infant mortality rate.
NiMH batteries would be great, but it's difficult to find large-scale ones.
Oh, if only GM hadn't shafted SAFT over the EV1 battery packs, we'd have
full-size NiMH batteries for about the same as PbA per watt-hour. But,
unfortunately, they did, and we don't.
NaNiCl still looks wonderfull, but you still can't buy them. [Although,
maybe someone should do some follow-up on this - perhaps the situatin is
improving somewhat]. I would *love* to start a project to build our own
NaNiCl batteries (a 'do it yourself' set of instructions a hacker-type could
use to build one using only materials found at a local college) but that
would take several skills I've not got.
PbA requires a willingness to put so much lead in your car you won't feel
comfortable driving it.
So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that you
can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be supported are
the SAFT NiCads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:20 PM 10/01/04 -0800, Martin Jackson wrote:
<snip lots of stuff that I personally agree with>
Speech is relatively old, but I'm not giving it up. Plain text is very
readable and doesn't taint well composed technical writing. HTML and
phonetic spelling don't add information and the purpose of reading the
list is half learning and half the company of intelligent friends.
Absolutely!
And when you are in a (technically and EV) isolated location, these E-mail
messages via dial-up are a lifeline.
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that you
> can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be supported are
> the SAFT NiCads.
They appear to be annoying to obtain, and require cooling. Expensive isn't
in my mind nearly as large a barrier as either of the above.
Sadly, you're probably right anyway.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your answer is very popular with me, Sheer.
I have been saying that they are the only viable chemistry for a while.
Nothing else is as rugged and has decent (if not great) enegry density.
Seth
On Jan 10, 2004, at 7:38 PM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
EvListers,
Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice
and I
would like the lists input. Many of you have real world experience
with
the
various batteries available and I would like your opinnion. I have
designed a BMS
that can be reprogramed for any technology.
My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I
will be
using a Zilla 1 K controler and a single string of batteries. When
done it
will
have a full belly pan for aerodynamics.
I am planning on a total of 22 batteries for a 264 volt pack. I
originally
cosidered Evercells but availability seems to be a problem.
Lithium offerings still seem to have problems not the least of which
is
price.
The remaining choices are Optimas, Exide Orbitals, or other SLA
battery.
My daily commute is 35 miles one way mostly freeway with charging at
work. I
would like the maximum range to be at least 75 miles in case of
emergency.
What are your suggestions and why?
*** WARNING: unpopular answer ahead ***
If you want a single (not hybrid) battery pack, I have to say SAFT
Nicad
Why?
Well, the NiZn batteries in my car are great. But they aren't made any
more,
and from all those who have been playing with the newer NiZn
batteries, it
sounds like they have serious reliability problems, especially in a
intermittant duty cycle. With the closing of their U.S. branch,
support is
likely to be chancy at best. I'm holding my evercell stock, but I'm not
buying any more, at least not until they produce a battery with
reliability
to match the batteries in my car.
The Thunder Sky lithiums have their own set of problems. People
playing with
them have found significant challenges in charging and discharging
them -
getting EV-scale currents out of them for very long seems to involve a
willingness to have some very hot batteries, and there are some serious
safety concerns with lithium that still haven't been addressed to my
satisfaction. In addition, no one actually knows what their
reliability is
going to look like! They seem to have a very high infant mortality
rate.
NiMH batteries would be great, but it's difficult to find large-scale
ones.
Oh, if only GM hadn't shafted SAFT over the EV1 battery packs, we'd
have
full-size NiMH batteries for about the same as PbA per watt-hour. But,
unfortunately, they did, and we don't.
NaNiCl still looks wonderfull, but you still can't buy them. [Although,
maybe someone should do some follow-up on this - perhaps the situatin
is
improving somewhat]. I would *love* to start a project to build our own
NaNiCl batteries (a 'do it yourself' set of instructions a hacker-type
could
use to build one using only materials found at a local college) but
that
would take several skills I've not got.
PbA requires a willingness to put so much lead in your car you won't
feel
comfortable driving it.
So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that
you
can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be
supported are
the SAFT NiCads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Forgive me if I caught the last half of this, but I am working towards
owning an electric GPR which comes with NiZn batteries.
Does anyone know what the ev-builders like Phoenix and Electric
Motorsport are doing to replace NiZn?
(by the way, very cool altoids, Seth)
Seth Allen wrote:
Your answer is very popular with me, Sheer.
I have been saying that they are the only viable chemistry for a
while. Nothing else is as rugged and has decent (if not great) enegry
density.
Seth
On Jan 10, 2004, at 7:38 PM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
EvListers,
Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice
and I
would like the lists input. Many of you have real world experience with
the
various batteries available and I would like your opinnion. I have
designed a BMS
that can be reprogramed for any technology.
My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I
will be
using a Zilla 1 K controler and a single string of batteries. When
done it
will
have a full belly pan for aerodynamics.
I am planning on a total of 22 batteries for a 264 volt pack. I
originally
cosidered Evercells but availability seems to be a problem.
Lithium offerings still seem to have problems not the least of which is
price.
The remaining choices are Optimas, Exide Orbitals, or other SLA
battery.
My daily commute is 35 miles one way mostly freeway with charging at
work. I
would like the maximum range to be at least 75 miles in case of
emergency.
What are your suggestions and why?
*** WARNING: unpopular answer ahead ***
If you want a single (not hybrid) battery pack, I have to say SAFT
Nicad
Why?
Well, the NiZn batteries in my car are great. But they aren't made
any more,
and from all those who have been playing with the newer NiZn
batteries, it
sounds like they have serious reliability problems, especially in a
intermittant duty cycle. With the closing of their U.S. branch,
support is
likely to be chancy at best. I'm holding my evercell stock, but I'm not
buying any more, at least not until they produce a battery with
reliability
to match the batteries in my car.
The Thunder Sky lithiums have their own set of problems. People
playing with
them have found significant challenges in charging and discharging
them -
getting EV-scale currents out of them for very long seems to involve a
willingness to have some very hot batteries, and there are some serious
safety concerns with lithium that still haven't been addressed to my
satisfaction. In addition, no one actually knows what their
reliability is
going to look like! They seem to have a very high infant mortality rate.
NiMH batteries would be great, but it's difficult to find large-scale
ones.
Oh, if only GM hadn't shafted SAFT over the EV1 battery packs, we'd have
full-size NiMH batteries for about the same as PbA per watt-hour. But,
unfortunately, they did, and we don't.
NaNiCl still looks wonderfull, but you still can't buy them. [Although,
maybe someone should do some follow-up on this - perhaps the situatin is
improving somewhat]. I would *love* to start a project to build our own
NaNiCl batteries (a 'do it yourself' set of instructions a
hacker-type could
use to build one using only materials found at a local college) but that
would take several skills I've not got.
PbA requires a willingness to put so much lead in your car you won't
feel
comfortable driving it.
So, at the moment, from where I sit. the only advanced chemistry that
you
can buy off-the-shelf and expect to have work correctly and be
supported are
the SAFT NiCads.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you are buying batterys for your EV which will be driven more than 10
miles at one time, you should ask the battery company technician or
engineering if it is design for that type of EV.
In selecting a battery which are designated for golf carts, these are high
ampere short drive times with rest periods. With the standard spade terminal
that bolts down by a top stud, they will tend to melt back a bit or loss 5
inches of torque per 5 miles.
If the terminal post connections are not check every 5 to 10 miles, you may
vaporized a battery post like I did many times.
Retorqing the terminals in trying to maintain the recommended torque value,
cause the battery terminal to mushroom and studs pull out with some battery
companys.
When you tried to get a warrenty repair for bad terminals, THEY SAY THESE
BATTERYS ARE NOT DESIGN FOR A ELECTRIC VEHICLE. Then I say, why did you
sell them to me.
When you buy a set of batterys, tell them what you are going to used them
for and get it writing that they can be used for your EV.
It is best to used a plated brass taper post connector. If the post has a
top bolt stud, I also use a SS washer, lockwasher and nut to bolt down the
battery connector.
If you want to used the new low profile terminal post pads, that about 1
inch in diameter that has a stud out of it. Specified that you want a 3/8
Stainless bolt with anchor tabs on the head which anchor better than a
standard hex head bolt.
The minumum torque value of battery post should be at least 110 inch lbs. I
used to have Exide 220 AH battery with these type of terminals and could
torque them to 15 ft lbs with no problems.
Also if you are using lead-acid, then specified removable locking fill caps
instead of push on covers. With push on covers, you can have electrolite
tracking from one cell to another.
Do not used a cadium-acid battery which all the new car batterys are using.
The electrolite if formalated to last about 3 years which is normally used
in seal type batterys.
With the locking type filler caps, you can used the Water-Miser Vent Caps
from http://www.backeastsolar.com
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 5:01 PM
Subject: Battery Choices
> EvListers,
> Well I am getting to the point where I must make a battery choice and I
> would like the lists input. Many of you have real world experience with
> the
> various batteries available and I would like your opinnion. I have
> designed a BMS
> that can be reprogramed for any technology.
>
> My EV is a 1988 Fiero with a 8 inch Netgain motor and 5 speed. I will be
> using a Zilla 1 K controler and a single string of batteries. When done it
> will
> have a full belly pan for aerodynamics.
> I am planning on a total of 22 batteries for a 264 volt pack. I
> originally
> cosidered Evercells but availability seems to be a problem.
> Lithium offerings still seem to have problems not the least of which is
> price.
> The remaining choices are Optimas, Exide Orbitals, or other SLA battery.
> My daily commute is 35 miles one way mostly freeway with charging at
> work. I
> would like the maximum range to be at least 75 miles in case of emergency.
>
> What are your suggestions and why?
>
> Thanks
> Pat Sweeney
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
There is one of these here in Tampa listed for
$2,000. Probably get it for less. You better have a
big forklift for the batt packs as they look very
heavy. About a 4' cube of lead batts. 2 packs.
jerry dycus
--- BORTEL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now here's one that nobody should be without.
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452154897&category=6728
>
>
__________________________________
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Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 10 Jan 2004 at 7:20, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> One of the risks is that some users may leave here, while others may stay,
> resulting in a fragmented user base that eventually falls below 'critical
> mass', killing both online worlds.
I'll second that.
This subject comes up once or twice a year, and has for quite some time.
Once in a while someone desperately wants to set up an alternative. He does
so, and very few users migrate there because the current system works.
This is where a lot of experienced and caring EV hobbyists hang out. We all
get to see them interact with each other, picking up an education in EVs.
Better yet, most of these guys are more than willing to help the rest of us.
This includes beginners, who ask questions that range from obvious to
deliciously challenging, all the way to experienced EVers who want to sound
out what others think of their ideas before trying them.
How many people on this list were emboldened to forge ahead with buying or
converting an EV because they learned more here, and because they knew there
was a huge, supportive body of users to help them get it going and keep it
going? I suspect it's a pretty long list.
There are good people here. With only a few exceptions, the users are
diverse yet respectful of one another. (And if treated appropriately most
of the exceptions either come around, or stop coming around. ;-)
So I say again, as I have each time: The EVDL works pretty darn well.
Let's not break it.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto thee, "send this
to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me any spam, lest I
smite thee.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I second that David!!!
I've been on the list on and off for 8 years
and have not had a problem with the format.
There is the occasional Troll, but for the
most part lots of interesting information
is shared between the EVDL members.
I'll have to throw in an extra thanks for
guys like Lee Hart that have a wealth of
information and explain it in easy to understand
terms. I also enjoy the EV commentary from
Bruce, John Wayland, Bob Rice and the always
interesting EV windmill guy Steve Clunn.
Thanks for the interesting forum guys!!!
Rod
P.S. It's also very helpfull to see guys like
Seth and Keith that are the EV future inventors.
--- David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10 Jan 2004 at 7:20, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
> > One of the risks is that some users may leave
> here, while others may stay,
> > resulting in a fragmented user base that
> eventually falls below 'critical
> > mass', killing both online worlds.
>
> I'll second that.
>
> This subject comes up once or twice a year, and has
> for quite some time.
> Once in a while someone desperately wants to set up
> an alternative. He does
> so, and very few users migrate there because the
> current system works.
>
> This is where a lot of experienced and caring EV
> hobbyists hang out. We all
> get to see them interact with each other, picking up
> an education in EVs.
> Better yet, most of these guys are more than willing
> to help the rest of us.
> This includes beginners, who ask questions that
> range from obvious to
> deliciously challenging, all the way to experienced
> EVers who want to sound
> out what others think of their ideas before trying
> them.
>
> How many people on this list were emboldened to
> forge ahead with buying or
> converting an EV because they learned more here, and
> because they knew there
> was a huge, supportive body of users to help them
> get it going and keep it
> going? I suspect it's a pretty long list.
>
> There are good people here. With only a few
> exceptions, the users are
> diverse yet respectful of one another. (And if
> treated appropriately most
> of the exceptions either come around, or stop
> coming around. ;-)
>
> So I say again, as I have each time: The EVDL works
> pretty darn well.
> Let's not break it.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
> you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See
> http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = =
> Thou shalt not send me any thing which says unto
> thee, "send this
> to all thou knowest." Neither shalt thou send me
> any spam, lest I
> smite thee.
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, I'm sorry to hear you can't make it. With your connections at
the PIR track maybe a late April or June NEDRA event could happen.
Woodburn is way to far in the future and us ampheads got to have our
fun. Here's an update on what's happening with "Suck Amps EV Racing".
We will finally be getting "Gone Postal" back from the painter this
Tuesday which will give us precious little time to finish up the
details and hopefully have a day or two of road testing before
heading to Vegas. I've contacted the Dodge Viper Owners Club in Las
Vegas and they will bring out about a half dozen Vipers to race
against. The president wanted to know how quick the electric postal
van would be. I told him somewhere between 14 seconds and 10 since we
have never run it down the strip yet. That's about the same spread as
from here to Mars. Father Time has been down the last couple of days
working on the "Silver Bullet" three motored, three Raptor powered
280ZX. He will also be bringing a drag bike. I'll let him chime in
and tell you what he's been up to. The 400 amp Curtis controller
failed on our shop golf cart so we'll have to put a spare 1200 amp
Raptor on it and up the voltage on the bone stock 36 volt 3 HP motor
to 144 volts. Maybe it will finally start to arc. It should be great
fun as a pit vehicle. I'll have to take some of the gas boys at Vegas
for a little eye opening adrenalin spin. All you EV List folks from
back east who I haven't met yet, please come to our pits and
introduce yourself. Looking forward to seeing you all there and also
seeing what this Fraunkin Steen vehicle will do.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
Hello to All,
"Brian D. Hall" wrote:
Only Two weeks left! time to start warming up those batteries. We will be at
NEDRA's season opener in Vegas with "revolt" drag bike , 192 volts , two
e-Teks, baby zilla with series / parallel switching. Hoping to get break
into the high 12's and over 100 mph.
Brian D. Hall
Good luck with the bike and it's improvements, it sure sounds like the right
combination....be safe and have fun!
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
This post was suppost to be an update on my
E-woody but thursday night coming home from work while
I was doing 40 mph a speeding fast and furious type
hit my rearend at about 65mph.
For those who don't know the E-woody is an all
wood/epoxy 3 wh 1000lb EV.
Hate driving at those hours like 3:30am but
work unloading fuel tankers so have to drive when the
ship is in. Ironic driving an EV to unload oil
tankers.
Anyway the small newish car hit the rear at a
25mph about closing speed. I was worried!!! I was
driving a wooden car!!! But I only had about 1/10 sec
to worry!!!
Then reality sat in and tried to keep the E-woody
straight as the hit was pushing the rear sideways. I
was pressed against my seat first by the impact then
by the centrifical force of the spin that happened
next coming to a stop in the turning lane, pissed,
looked up to see the car drive off with a badly
damaged frontend and leaking fluids and making strange
noises. I'm sure they didn't get far but the police
haven't found it yet. Doubt they looked.
After the 12 cops finially got there, did the
paperwork and each stood in front of the e-woody for
pictures, not for evidence but to keep themselves,
they tried to force me to use their towtruck but I
picked up the rear and pulled the rear wheel less
E-woody onto private property, with permission, until
I could pick it up today.
Despite all this I was happy several ways, only a
slight bump on the head from the rollbar was my only
bodily injury and some sore mussles in my back and
neck from the g forces and tensing.
Another happy thing was my rear crash protection
worked very well! My first line of defence was my rear
wheel which took the brunt of the forces first thru
the trailing arm until the trailing arm forward mounts
broke then the tire jammed between the rear cabin
bulkhead, the heavy center frame beam using the
cushion of the forward and aft parts of the tire.
There were no intrusions into the cabin.
I designed, shaped the rear so if hit by a car,
small truck after the wheel cushioned it, it would
ramp up onto the hood and the car slide underneath
which is just what happened!!! Outside the box
thinking works sometimes. Just didn't partically want
to test it personally ;-).
If hit in the side or rear with 2/3 of the weight
forward it would spin just as it did, spreading the
forces over time. By putting on the brakes the front
wheels, one going forward and the other going aft and
the now wheelless rear dragging brought me gently to a
stop in 1.5 turns.
The E-woody stayed flat the whole time. Nice thing
about having a CG under the 12"(21" dia) wheel's axle
line!!
Getting it home today I was amazed that the only
broken parts seem to be the airlift shock and the
trailing arm brakets, bolts.
Also the lower rear wooden right side needs
replacing and a few joints need epoxy dripped into
them where some cracks appeared and a new taillight,
tag.
The other car will need a whole front clip, hood
from it's firewall. My center frame beam, floor tore
it up!! My wheel did in it's bumper, grill and maybe
went under the car.
The wooden trailing arm assembly, rear wheel was
found about 100 yards away and other than some road
rash, seems to be in good shape so as soon as it gets
warm, over 65f which may be tomarrow, the bracket will
be repaired and bolted back up, embedded in epoxy
where the bolts were ripped out of the body but even
stronger than before as the extra epoxy handles the
point loading of the bolts better than pure wood.
Local auto parts stores carry the Hijacker air shock
so hopefully be driving Moday or Tuesday.
The E-Woody was designed for fast cheap repair
system that I use for my sailboat designs. A little
wood, epoxy and your on your way. Beats paying
autobody, boatyard repair bills and waiting for it to
be done!!
Then it will be time to test my new generator and
my new trailer for the woody so it will have unlimited
range at 55mph and carry a small, 12' sailboat/
camper/ hauling trailer.
So apparently a wooden EV can take a licking and
come out well! Who knew?
jerry dycus
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--- End Message ---
