EV Digest 3272
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Choices
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery Choices
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: eGPR
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: was/ Lee's BMS/ H.O contest
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC arc supression
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Valance k-charge (was Battery Choices)
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: electric bus on eBay Fun Camper?
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC arc supression
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: eGPR
by Christian Kocmick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) price/kWh was Re: Battery Choices
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: A better forum for EV and politics
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery Choices
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by Andrew in Ann Arbor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
I'm very happy to see you survived this crash
with little damage. Excellent engineering work!
Take care and good luck with the repair.
Rod
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
> This post was suppost to be an update on my
> E-woody but thursday night coming home from work
> while
> I was doing 40 mph a speeding fast and furious type
> hit my rearend at about 65mph.
> For those who don't know the E-woody is an
> all
> wood/epoxy 3 wh 1000lb EV.
> Hate driving at those hours like 3:30am but
> work unloading fuel tankers so have to drive when
> the
> ship is in. Ironic driving an EV to unload oil
> tankers.
> Anyway the small newish car hit the rear at a
> 25mph about closing speed. I was worried!!! I was
> driving a wooden car!!! But I only had about 1/10
> sec
> to worry!!!
> Then reality sat in and tried to keep the
> E-woody
> straight as the hit was pushing the rear sideways. I
> was pressed against my seat first by the impact then
> by the centrifical force of the spin that happened
> next coming to a stop in the turning lane, pissed,
> looked up to see the car drive off with a badly
> damaged frontend and leaking fluids and making
> strange
> noises. I'm sure they didn't get far but the police
> haven't found it yet. Doubt they looked.
> After the 12 cops finially got there, did the
> paperwork and each stood in front of the e-woody
> for
> pictures, not for evidence but to keep themselves,
> they tried to force me to use their towtruck but I
> picked up the rear and pulled the rear wheel less
> E-woody onto private property, with permission,
> until
> I could pick it up today.
> Despite all this I was happy several ways, only
> a
> slight bump on the head from the rollbar was my only
> bodily injury and some sore mussles in my back and
> neck from the g forces and tensing.
> Another happy thing was my rear crash
> protection
> worked very well! My first line of defence was my
> rear
> wheel which took the brunt of the forces first thru
> the trailing arm until the trailing arm forward
> mounts
> broke then the tire jammed between the rear cabin
> bulkhead, the heavy center frame beam using the
> cushion of the forward and aft parts of the tire.
> There were no intrusions into the cabin.
> I designed, shaped the rear so if hit by a car,
> small truck after the wheel cushioned it, it would
> ramp up onto the hood and the car slide underneath
> which is just what happened!!! Outside the box
> thinking works sometimes. Just didn't partically
> want
> to test it personally ;-).
> If hit in the side or rear with 2/3 of the
> weight
> forward it would spin just as it did, spreading the
> forces over time. By putting on the brakes the front
> wheels, one going forward and the other going aft
> and
> the now wheelless rear dragging brought me gently to
> a
> stop in 1.5 turns.
> The E-woody stayed flat the whole time. Nice
> thing
> about having a CG under the 12"(21" dia) wheel's
> axle
> line!!
> Getting it home today I was amazed that the
> only
> broken parts seem to be the airlift shock and the
> trailing arm brakets, bolts.
> Also the lower rear wooden right side needs
> replacing and a few joints need epoxy dripped into
> them where some cracks appeared and a new taillight,
> tag.
> The other car will need a whole front clip,
> hood
> from it's firewall. My center frame beam, floor tore
> it up!! My wheel did in it's bumper, grill and maybe
> went under the car.
> The wooden trailing arm assembly, rear wheel
> was
> found about 100 yards away and other than some road
> rash, seems to be in good shape so as soon as it
> gets
> warm, over 65f which may be tomarrow, the bracket
> will
> be repaired and bolted back up, embedded in epoxy
> where the bolts were ripped out of the body but even
> stronger than before as the extra epoxy handles the
> point loading of the bolts better than pure wood.
> Local auto parts stores carry the Hijacker air shock
> so hopefully be driving Moday or Tuesday.
> The E-Woody was designed for fast cheap repair
> system that I use for my sailboat designs. A little
> wood, epoxy and your on your way. Beats paying
> autobody, boatyard repair bills and waiting for it
> to
> be done!!
> Then it will be time to test my new generator
> and
> my new trailer for the woody so it will have
> unlimited
> range at 55mph and carry a small, 12' sailboat/
> camper/ hauling trailer.
> So apparently a wooden EV can take a licking
> and
> come out well! Who knew?
> jerry dycus
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus"
> Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some questions come to mind. The tZero used Lion's Gate Lithium Ion 18650
cells and Tom Gage drove the tZero 302 miles, from northern LA to the
southern Bay area, at an average speed of 60 mph. How come there was no
mention of any battery sag as with the Thunder Sky? Also with an
acceleration of 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds, you would expect there to be sag.
Was there? Before bugging Tom with these likely redundant questions, does
anyone know the answers?
On the EVWorld site, there was an interview with Mark Kohler from Valence
Technology (paid subscription) saying that they are producing a "safe"
Lithium Ion battery using a phosphate compound in the cathode. He did
mentioned that:
1) Lithium Nickel, Lithium Cobalt, Lithium Manganese.. are thermally
unstable in abuse conditions (hot box, over-voltage type situations) so that
when they decompose, ...in the case of the Cobalt Oxide, it provides the
oxygen for the burn or the flame to continue, so it's almost
un-extinguishable.
2) Valence uses a cathode based on a phosphate material. When it
decomposes in abuse conditions, it just dies.
3) The amount of energy in the Valence battery is 90% to 95% of other
technologies but their process is cheaper to manufacture, and with respect
to cycle-life during high discharge and charge rates, they don't see the
degradation that some other chemistries are prone to.
4) They don't perform any different in cold applications than other Lithium
Ion and will operate down to negative 20 degrees C. No mention was made as
to what type of performance they would be getting at -20C.
5) In production, they feel that they can get the consumer cost "down to
$450.00 per kilowatt hour". [ed. Shouldn't the units be kilowatts?]
Preproduction cost could be about $1,000 per kilowatt. Mark said the price
would be negotable.
6) They can use existing lead acid chargers. "You don't have to have special
five step algorithms or anything."
7) When asked about the number of cycles in a pack, Mark came back with down
to 80 percent depth of discharge, greater than 2,000 and when you do partial
depth of discharge, [such as] 50 percent, you may get over 10,000 cycles.
Except for cost, the Valence Technology Saphion (Lithium Ion) battery
appears to be a good candidate that should be investigated more thoroughly.
There are some questions as to what constitutes abuse, recommended chargers
and charging algortihms, is there voltage sag, heating/cooling needs, etc.
Not sure about whether I want to invest in a set of batteries, the stock, or
both. Has anyone on this DL had any experience with these cells? There
have been some write ups on their laptop batteries.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, Jerry, sorry to hear of the misfortune but VERY glad you're OK and that
the EW will live to cruise another day.
Hope they find the creep who did it. Dollars to doughnuts he was plastered.
When the car finally stopped from overheating, he probably passed out in it
until morning, then barfed in his own lap, and again when he saw what he'd
done to his car.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Cutting the space budget really restores my faith in humanity. It
eliminates dreams, goals, and ideals and lets us get straight to the
business of hate, debauchery, and self-annihilation.
-- Johnny Hart
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11 Jan 2004 at 0:20, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> 5) In production, they feel that [Valence] can get the consumer
> cost "down to
> $450.00 per kilowatt hour". [ed. Shouldn't the units be kilowatts?]
No, that's correct, appropriate, and common. That's how Saft prices their
nicads - cost per unit of storage capacity.
Those who are racing might in fact like to know the cost per Watt of
available power, but the "daily driver" folks usually want to know how much
it'll cost them to build an EV with a given real-world range. Cost per kW-
hr gives part of the answer.
> They can use existing lead acid chargers ...
This claim makes me VERY suspicious. LiIon chemistry is quite different
from lead acid chemistry.
> number of cycles in a pack, ... 80 percent depth of discharge, greater than 2,000 ...
Are the units actually in production and providing this kind of service both
in independent tests and in the field? Please forgive my skepticism, but
unless they are, these are unproven claims and might as well be marketing
hype. For many years I've heard similar claims for other types of advanced
EV batteries, and I'm still waiting for them to hit the market. If Valence
can do it, I'll say bravo - when I can buy them. <g>
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
-- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 9 Jan 2004, Johann Joseph wrote:
> Has anyone considered a more modern EV message board?
> Like snitz or vbulletin? That way messages can be
> catagorized and there can be a seperate section for
> politics. Sticky notes can be used for a newbie
> section. And forums can be moderated so that if a
> thread gets out of hand and turns political it can be
> moved to the politics forum.
Why make a simple thing so complicated?
>
> There could also be a section for hybrids and diesels
> as I know sometimes those creep onto the list and
> they get out of hand as well. A message board would
> organize all that and people can rant and rave all
> they want in the appropriate forums.
This is a list for EV's and I think it best to leave it that way.
>
> It's surprising that for a group of obviously smart
> and technical people that we use such a relatively
> old means of large group communication.
Perhaps it is old, but it is simple and it works, at least it does for
me.
>
> If it's a case of money I'm sure we could pool some
> money together from donations to start it up.
>
Each to their own I guess, but seems more work than necessary.
> Thoughts?
It seems to me that there are many forums out there for different
subjects, there seems no need to tamper with the good thing we have here.
Regards, A.K. Howard, here in cool parts of the Las Vegas valley, and
running my all electric apartment still at 8 cents per kwh.
_________________________________________________________________
Scope out the new MSN Plus Internet Software � optimizes dial-up to the max!
http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=byoa/plus&ST=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Forgive me if I caught the last half of this, but I am working towards
owning an electric GPR which comes with NiZn batteries. Does anyone know what
the ev-builders like Phoenix and Electric Motorsport are doing to replace
NiZn?>>
Evercells are rated to 4C, which means 70# of the MB40's shouldn't be pushed
above 150A - fine for range, not much fun with pocket rockets. I wonder how
long a NiZn pack would last in the eGPR I got to test ride, with the Alltrax
set at 650A!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 10:09 AM
Subject: was/ Lee's BMS/ H.O contest
>
> From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>
> > As for myself, I didn't enter because I couldn't find the contest
> > details on the quoted website.
> >
>
> Hi Judebert
> I couldn't find the details either but then my computer is missing
something
> as I get a missing "flash.osc" and then it closes, . But as for the rules,
> last year the H.O. was required to make electricity to power
> something. Try clicking on events and contests . If your in Florida I'm
> having a EV rally in April, and all are invited.
> Steve Clunn
> www.grassrootsev.com
Hi Steve and Others,
I seem to have the same problem with the grassrootsev website, and it is the
same type of problem that existed while the HO contest was going on. Once
past the Home page, the Events page doesn't want to come up. The Photo
Gallery yeilds the same results for me. I get a message about Could not
establish a connection with the server, or I get the ~Cannot Find Sever~
blank page in my Web browser.
Is there another contest being planned for this year? I may have found some
model airplane parts at my local thrift store that I can purchase.
BTW, who won the contest?? I never did find out.
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi All,
> This post was suppost to be an update on my
> E-woody but thursday night coming home from work while
> I was doing 40 mph a speeding fast and furious type
> hit my rearend at about 65mph.
> Anyway the small newish car hit the rear at a
> 25mph about closing speed. I was worried!!! I was
> driving a wooden car!!! But I only had about 1/10 sec
> to worry!!!
Hi Jerry and Others,
Thank goodness you fared so well!!! I'm impressed with the outcome of your
vehicle. I'd love to see some photos of the design details in the trailing
arm and rear suspension area as you make your repairs. I don't know if you
have a camera or not, but it would be good info to share for anyone who may
have an inclination to build something similar,...hint, hint. ;-))
Thank goodness you are virtually unscathed Jerry. I like stories with happy
endings. Use ice on anything that feels sore for the first 72 hours, not
heat. If you use heat at first, it will cause any muscle/soft tissue
injuries to take years to heal. After 72 hours, you can use heat. I know
from experience of being rearended in my ICE vehicle in 1994. I used heat
because it was Winter and ice was just ~too cold~. Silly me. I hope you can
avoid the same problems I had with my back, neck and shoulders for several
years following.
My hat is off to the little Ewoody and it's designer!!
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
Ouch! Good to hear that you and your woody survived so well.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
I hooked up an isolation transformer between my house wiring
and a standard 120v AC charger... Problem is that I get some
arcing in the timer switch when I break this circuit.
The way to fix this is to put an MOV across the transformer primary or
the switch contacts (across the transformer is preferred). If you happen
to turn off the switch at the instant when transformer current is high,
then the inductive 'kick' is absorbed by the MOV and not the switch.
Do I need to be able to handle any appreciable current, or
would a sub-watt class MOV do the trick for my small transient.
I'm also a but confused... one spec sheet says you want a 10% safety
margin... so 242v for a 220 v line. I'd think you'd want to base it
off peak voltage.
My line seems to be 240v, so 240*1.41 = 338v, add 10% -> 372v.
So I'd want an MOV that "breaks down" (or whatever the term is)
at around 372v.
Since its just a little arc that you can only see at night,
can I live with a cheap, low power device?
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 8:02 AM -0700 1/10/04, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
http://www.evsource.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl
I admin several YaBB boards and they work great for small groups but
we'd out grow it in a matter of days. Better to look into vBulletin
or Ikonboard if the groups decides to go that way (but see last
paragraph before doing so).
But, as someone else pointed out (forget who, sorry) that web based
boards are slow for modem users. Heck, I have a fast connect and I'm
not fond of them either so I offer this solution: We all decide on a
convention of prefixes in the message header. For example, if the
message isn't really EV related the subject could be "NEVC: my
subject" for No EV Content. A political one could be "POL: my
subject" and so forth.
This works great on some of the other lists I'm on. It lets people
set up filters or make visually scanning list of emails easier.
Sheer brings up an excellent point bout fragmenting the community.
I've seen that happen in the past and don't want to see it happen to
EVDL.
Mike
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
mreish writes:
>
> But, as someone else pointed out (forget who, sorry) that web based
> boards are slow for modem users. Heck, I have a fast connect and I'm
> not fond of them either so I offer this solution: We all decide on a
> convention of prefixes in the message header. For example, if the
> message isn't really EV related the subject could be "NEVC: my
> subject" for No EV Content. A political one could be "POL: my
> subject" and so forth.
An alternative is to stick to the list guidelines of no off-topic
postings, no political postings, etc. No new acronyms needed...
> Sheer brings up an excellent point bout fragmenting the community.
> I've seen that happen in the past and don't want to see it happen to
> EVDL.
And as others have posted, if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I read this article, too, and agree that the Valance k-charge is an exciting
prospect. I couldn't tell how many of the "facts" in the article are backed
by valid tests and they are still lacking critical information, particularly
what it the voltage drop at various currents and also the heat gradient.
But, I'll hold an optimistic view until I hear otherwise.
The price is the real killer. About double ThunderSky. Maybe a large group
order could bring them more in line. The upside is that, if the cycle life
is really 2000 and it has no fire risk, then the higher price up front might
pay off.
Does anyone have more factual information about the k-charge besides that in
the article and in the downloadable specs?
http://www.valence.com/pdffiles/K-Charge_Datasheet_FINAL_0416.pdf
Thanks,
Peri Hartman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, 10 January, 2004 21:20
Subject: Re: Battery Choices
> Some questions come to mind. The tZero used Lion's Gate Lithium Ion 18650
> cells and Tom Gage drove the tZero 302 miles, from northern LA to the
> southern Bay area, at an average speed of 60 mph. How come there was no
> mention of any battery sag as with the Thunder Sky? Also with an
> acceleration of 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds, you would expect there to be sag.
> Was there? Before bugging Tom with these likely redundant questions,
does
> anyone know the answers?
>
> On the EVWorld site, there was an interview with Mark Kohler from Valence
> Technology (paid subscription) saying that they are producing a "safe"
> Lithium Ion battery using a phosphate compound in the cathode. He did
> mentioned that:
>
> 1) Lithium Nickel, Lithium Cobalt, Lithium Manganese.. are thermally
> unstable in abuse conditions (hot box, over-voltage type situations) so
that
> when they decompose, ...in the case of the Cobalt Oxide, it provides the
> oxygen for the burn or the flame to continue, so it's almost
> un-extinguishable.
>
> 2) Valence uses a cathode based on a phosphate material. When it
> decomposes in abuse conditions, it just dies.
> 3) The amount of energy in the Valence battery is 90% to 95% of other
> technologies but their process is cheaper to manufacture, and with respect
> to cycle-life during high discharge and charge rates, they don't see the
> degradation that some other chemistries are prone to.
>
> 4) They don't perform any different in cold applications than other
Lithium
> Ion and will operate down to negative 20 degrees C. No mention was made as
> to what type of performance they would be getting at -20C.
>
> 5) In production, they feel that they can get the consumer cost "down to
> $450.00 per kilowatt hour". [ed. Shouldn't the units be kilowatts?]
> Preproduction cost could be about $1,000 per kilowatt. Mark said the
price
> would be negotable.
>
> 6) They can use existing lead acid chargers. "You don't have to have
special
> five step algorithms or anything."
>
> 7) When asked about the number of cycles in a pack, Mark came back with
down
> to 80 percent depth of discharge, greater than 2,000 and when you do
partial
> depth of discharge, [such as] 50 percent, you may get over 10,000 cycles.
>
> Except for cost, the Valence Technology Saphion (Lithium Ion) battery
> appears to be a good candidate that should be investigated more
thoroughly.
> There are some questions as to what constitutes abuse, recommended
chargers
> and charging algortihms, is there voltage sag, heating/cooling needs,
etc.
>
> Not sure about whether I want to invest in a set of batteries, the stock,
or
> both. Has anyone on this DL had any experience with these cells? There
> have been some write ups on their laptop batteries.
>
> Peter
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Right on, Ralph!
See Ya.....John Wayland
Ralph Merwin wrote:
> An alternative is to stick to the list guidelines of no off-topic
> postings, no political postings, etc. No new acronyms needed...
>
> > Sheer brings up an excellent point bout fragmenting the community.
> > I've seen that happen in the past and don't want to see it happen to
> > EVDL.
>
> And as others have posted, if it isn't broken, don't try to fix it.
>
> Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Gee! What a cute kittle bus! What a nice Motorhome it would make, wish it
was up in the fridgid Northwest. Would be a great Ampabout story to drive it
home to CT<g>! Anybody going for it?? Jerry, Steve, other guyz in FLA??
When getting bussed is a pleasure!
Bob
> Hi All,
> There is one of these here in Tampa listed for
> $2,000. Probably get it for less. You better have a
> big forklift for the batt packs as they look very
> heavy. About a 4' cube of lead batts. 2 packs.
> jerry dycus
> --- BORTEL <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Now here's one that nobody should be without.
> >
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452154897&cat
egory=6728
> >
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
> http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
>> put an MOV across the transformer primary or the switch contacts
>> (across the transformer is preferred).
> Do I need to be able to handle any appreciable current, or
> would a sub-watt class MOV do the trick for my small transient.
MOVs are rated in 'joules' of energy they can safely dissipate. A
transformer stores energy in its inductance. E = 1/2 x L x I^2 where
E=energy in joules, L=inductance in farads, and I=current in amps.
You (kinda) know the current from the transformer's ratings. For
example, a 120vac 1200kva transformer draws about I = 1200kva / 120vac =
10 amps. But that is the total current, most of which goes to the load.
What counts here is the magnetization current, which is a small fraction
of the total current.
One way to get this magnetization current is to measure the
transformer's primary current with NO load on the secondary. This
current is (almost all) going to the magnetization inductance.
Another way is to use charts to 'guessitmate' the magnetizing current as
a percentage of full-load current. GE gives the following typical ranges
for 50/60 Hz transformers:
0.1kva 15-20%
0.5kva 11-15%
1kva 7-10%
2kva 5-8%
5kva 4.5-6%
For example, our 1200kva transformer draws 10 amps at full load, so can
be expected to draw 7-10% of that no-load or 0.7-1.0 amp. Of course, a
real measurment is better, but this will do if nothing else is
available.
Now we can calculate the inductance from L = V / (2 x pi x f x I) where
V=AC voltage, I=AC current in amps, f=frequency in Hertz, and pi=3.14.
For our example transformer, L = 120vac / (2 x 3.14 x 60hz x 1amp) = 0.3
henries.
Now we have everything we need to figure out how much energy is stored
in the transformer's inductance. The worst case is if the switch just
happens to open at the instant the AC current is at its peak. Multiply
the current times 1.4 for the peak current of a sinewave. 1 amp x 1.4 =
1.4 amps. So E = 1/2 x 0.3h x 1.4a^2 = 1.1 joules.
This is the energy that will be dissipated in the MOV each time you turn
off the power. Just in case your kid switches the charger on/of/on/off
rapidly "to see what would happen", I'd use a part good for (say) 3
times this, or about 4 joules.
> I'm also a bit confused... one spec sheet says you want a 10% safety
> margin... so 242v for a 220 v line. I'd think you'd want to base it
> off peak voltage.
>
> My line seems to be 240v, so 240*1.41 = 338v, add 10% -> 372v.
> So I'd want an MOV that "breaks down" (or whatever the term is)
> at around 372v?
MOVs have both DC and AC ratings. The AC ratings already take the peak
into account. If you're running on a 240vac (nominal) line, I'd allow
+15% for high line. 240 x 1.15 = 275vac. So, pick an MOV rated for at
least 275v.
So, we want a 275vac 4joule MOV. Using the GE catalog (because it's
handy), this would be their part# V275LA2 (275 vac, 8 joules). This is a
7mm dia 'ceramic disk capacitor' sized part. Equivalents from Digikey
are a Panasonic ERZ-V05D431 or BC Components 2322-592-52716. These parts
are all under $0.50 -- cheap insurance.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I generally agree with all the suggestions that the "EV list ain't
broke, so don't fix it."
But, there are a few things that the present software doesn't do well
(besides archiving, which it does terribly :-)
This is a very busy list, often with hundreds of posts per day. It would
save us all a lot of time reading it if it could be filtered or
'moderated' a bit. I know that a human moderator is unlikely; no one
wants to do it, and no one wants their posts delayed.
But, given the incredible power of modern computers, is there no
software that can:
- Eliminate HTML and other non-ASCII formats, *but* convert what it
finds to plain text?
- Eliminate "unsubscribe" and other messages clearly formatted and
meant to be sent to the listserver, and not the list itself?
- Edit out lengthy repetitions of quoted material (the infamous
"me too" posts that then quotes an entire digest).
- Either send questionable posts back to the sender with a note that
they need changes, or put them in a 'pending' file for a moderator
to examine and decide whether they should be allowed to be posted?
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Some confusion here. When you say 4C or 3C, etc, what does that mean? So
if I have 48 volts of NiZn, at 70lbs, I can't push them past 150 amps
without reducing battery life. Do you mean I should go for higher
voltage or more weight?
I guess I don't understand depletion. (It's been a very long time since
I took electronics)
Christian
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<Forgive me if I caught the last half of this, but I am working towards
owning an electric GPR which comes with NiZn batteries. Does anyone know what
the ev-builders like Phoenix and Electric Motorsport are doing to replace
NiZn?>>
Evercells are rated to 4C, which means 70# of the MB40's shouldn't be pushed
above 150A - fine for range, not much fun with pocket rockets. I wonder how
long a NiZn pack would last in the eGPR I got to test ride, with the Alltrax
set at 650A!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 00:57, David Roden wrote:
> On 11 Jan 2004 at 0:20, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
>
> > 5) In production, they feel that [Valence] can get the consumer
> > cost "down to
> > $450.00 per kilowatt hour". [ed. Shouldn't the units be kilowatts?]
>
> No, that's correct, appropriate, and common. That's how Saft prices their
> nicads - cost per unit of storage capacity.
>
> Those who are racing might in fact like to know the cost per Watt of
> available power, but the "daily driver" folks usually want to know how much
> it'll cost them to build an EV with a given real-world range. Cost per kW-
> hr gives part of the answer.
>
This makes me wonder if there is an index available of price per kWh for
different chemistries/brands?
--
Martin Klingensmith
infoarchive.net
nnytech.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Lee Hart wrote:
> But, given the incredible power of modern computers, is there no
> software that can:
>
> - Eliminate HTML and other non-ASCII formats, *but* convert what it
> finds to plain text?
Many. I use one called ecartis.
> - Eliminate "unsubscribe" and other messages clearly formatted and
> meant to be sent to the listserver, and not the list itself?
administrivia filtering. Sure.
> - Edit out lengthy repetitions of quoted material (the infamous
> "me too" posts that then quotes an entire digest).
Unknown how widely this is implemented; I did a patch to add it to
ecartis.
> - Either send questionable posts back to the sender with a note that
> they need changes, or put them in a 'pending' file for a moderator
> to examine and decide whether they should be allowed to be posted?
How do you decide this? Keywords? Something else? Here's where it gets
hard.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 15:56, Lee Hart wrote:
> I generally agree with all the suggestions that the "EV list ain't
> broke, so don't fix it."
>
> But, there are a few things that the present software doesn't do well
> (besides archiving, which it does terribly :-)
>
> This is a very busy list, often with hundreds of posts per day. It would
> save us all a lot of time reading it if it could be filtered or
> 'moderated' a bit. I know that a human moderator is unlikely; no one
> wants to do it, and no one wants their posts delayed.
>
> But, given the incredible power of modern computers, is there no
> software that can:
>
> - Eliminate HTML and other non-ASCII formats, *but* convert what it
> finds to plain text?
>
> - Eliminate "unsubscribe" and other messages clearly formatted and
> meant to be sent to the listserver, and not the list itself?
>
> - Edit out lengthy repetitions of quoted material (the infamous
> "me too" posts that then quotes an entire digest).
>
> - Either send questionable posts back to the sender with a note that
> they need changes, or put them in a 'pending' file for a moderator
> to examine and decide whether they should be allowed to be posted?
There is software that begins to do what you specify. The HTML->ASCII
conversion is pretty standard these days. The other three specifications
are almost always done by a human moderator. Most lists do not have one
because of the time required, and the delay while messages are waiting
for approval.
The problem with any new software is the process of upgrading, a
hair-raising event for any server software expected to "just work -
always" (within minutes of my web server being down I'm getting emails
about it)
--
Martin Klingensmith
infoarchive.net
nnytech.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Martin Klingensmith wrote:
> conversion is pretty standard these days. The other three specifications
> are almost always done by a human moderator. Most lists do not have one
> because of the time required, and the delay while messages are waiting
> for approval.
> The problem with any new software is the process of upgrading, a
> hair-raising event for any server software expected to "just work -
> always" (within minutes of my web server being down I'm getting emails
> about it)
For a list server, the process of upgrading is "bring it online and test
it, and don't send list mail into it until it's up and works"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
I've been hanging out here trying to understand all the battery
terminologies and to "get a good feel for them" without the benefit of
having owned or driven an EV. I'm still learning and I appreciate your
tolerance and patience.
You raised some interesting questions. I came across two links and and
excerpted parts of their contents. In the pcmag article, the tester was
able to power a laptop for 6 hours. Valence claim is for 10 hours however,
as marketing goes, it is usually for the top of the line model. In this
case the VNC-65 is about half the energy storage of the VNC-130 which makes
me feel better about Valence's 10 hour claim and what the reviewer found.
The computerworld reviewer was a lot looser to the point of being almost
useless. There was no mention if he had the VNC-65 or VNC130 battery. His
time of time 7 OR 8 hours to drain the battery is definetly a ball park
figure. We might be able to make some assumptions based on the draw from
the current requirements for his laptop.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,4149,981337,00.asp
"The Valence N-Charge Power System (VNC-65) is a 0.5- by 11.8- by 9.0-inch
battery slice that sits under your notebook... On our BatteryMark test, the
N-Charge delivered 6 hours 7 minutes when powering the desktop
replacement-class IBM A31p. Using an IBM T20 for real-world testing (playing
a DVD, then word processing while listening to MP3s), we got roughly 5 hours
of life."
According to the Valence website http://www.valence.com/ncharge.asp, the
VNC-65 has a capacity of 5 AH and energy storage of 60-65 Wh while the
VNC-130 doubles those figures with dual voltage output in the 16 to 24 volt
and 5 to 12 volt ranges.
http://www.computerworld.com/mobiletopics/mobile/laptops/story/0,10801,79373,00.html
"Ten hours of power?
The amount of battery charge you get with the N-Charge is spectacular.
Running full bore with screen set to maximum brightness and AirPort on, it
took me the better part of seven or eight hours to drain the N-Charge dry --
longer if I notched down the brightness and turned off wireless networking,
and less if I watched a lot of DVDs. And because the N-Charge is a Lithium
Ion battery, I don't have to worry about "memory" impacting its charge life,
either.
Valence says that the N-Charge is good for about six hundred
charge-discharge cycles, "
Here's some additional information from a previous post:
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 14:36 PM
Subject: Re: New L-ion battery - designed for EV use
> Jerry, I didn't see your reply get through in your msg (at bottom)-just
> a heads up...
>
> I actually wrote Valence about their smaller N-charge batts, if they
> might be do-able for an escoot. Their reply:
>
> > It is true the K-charge unit may be too much for your friend's
> > scooter project, but the N-charge batteries were designed for laptop
> > use, and as such are limited on their output current. I do not feel
> > that they would work in his application.
> >
> > We are thinking about designing a family of 12V batteries that range
> > from 40-85AH in capacity. One of these units will probably be a
> > better fit for his needs. Check back next month with us and we
> > should have a spec sheet ready to send out.
> >
> > Contact Peter Guggenheim ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) as he is the
> > business development manager for motive power applications (off-road
> > EVs).
> > Thanks for your interest.
>
> loCk
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 0:57 AM
Subject: Re: Battery Choices
> On 11 Jan 2004 at 0:20, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
>
> > 5) In production, they feel that [Valence] can get the consumer
> > cost "down to
> > $450.00 per kilowatt hour". [ed. Shouldn't the units be kilowatts?]
>
> No, that's correct, appropriate, and common. That's how Saft prices their
> nicads - cost per unit of storage capacity.
>
> Those who are racing might in fact like to know the cost per Watt of
> available power, but the "daily driver" folks usually want to know how
much
> it'll cost them to build an EV with a given real-world range. Cost per
kW-
> hr gives part of the answer.
>
> > They can use existing lead acid chargers ...
>
> This claim makes me VERY suspicious. LiIon chemistry is quite different
> from lead acid chemistry.
>
> > number of cycles in a pack, ... 80 percent depth of discharge, greater
than 2,000 ...
>
> Are the units actually in production and providing this kind of service
both
> in independent tests and in the field? Please forgive my skepticism, but
> unless they are, these are unproven claims and might as well be marketing
> hype. For many years I've heard similar claims for other types of
advanced
> EV batteries, and I'm still waiting for them to hit the market. If
Valence
> can do it, I'll say bravo - when I can buy them. <g>
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
> nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
> press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
> constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
>
> -- Czeslaw Milosz, 1942
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
This post was suppost to be an update on my
E-woody but thursday night coming home from work while
I was doing 40 mph a speeding fast and furious type
hit my rearend at about 65mph.
So apparently a wooden EV can take a licking and
come out well! Who knew?
jerry dycus
Jerry
Glad to hear you're OK.
I've always felt that a small car doesn't have to be less safe but never
had the opportunity to test the theory.
Best of luck with repairs and recuperation....
--
Andrew in Ann Arbor
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
