EV Digest 3276
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: eGPR
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Carrier recommendations
by Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) FastOn connectors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: Carrier recommendations
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: FastOn connectors
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Pre-charge questions
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) ground faults... floodeds... agm's....
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Pre-charge questions
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Dualin'7 going to Vegas
by Richard Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dualin'7 going to Vegas
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Carrier recommendations
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Prius EV Switch
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Pre-charge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Pre-charge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: e-meter interference?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Pre-charge questions
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: FastOn connectors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: e-meter interference?
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: High Voltage or High Current
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: FastOn connectors
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: Experimental EV on e-bay
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) A better forum for EV and politics
by Joseph Vaughn-Perling <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Pre-charge questions
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) RE: Pre-charge questions
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Seth,
I'll be there. I put in my flight reservations but haven't yet decided where
to stay or put in a reservation for a car yet. I was planning to do that
sometime today.
Last year I stayed at the Speedway Casino Hotel off 15. It's a few exits
south of the track. We had the after-race dinner there. In the past several
NEDRA people have stayed there.
I was also thinking of bringing my Schwinn Missile scooter to cruise around
the pits in but it's probably too big to haul on the plane and might get
messed up.
I'm looking forward to meeting everyone and checking out their electric
creations.
Chip Gribben
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
NEDRA Power of DC Racing Coordinator
http://www.powerofdc.com
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.com
ScooterWerks
http://www.scooterwerks.com
On 1/12/04 12:00 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 07:25:01 -0500
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
>
> ok so we have:
>
> Roderick W (Mr EV Parts)
> Brian H (Mr Thunderstruck)
> Rich the madman (Mr PFC)
> Rich F (from Vegas?) (and other locals I presume?)
> Keith R (of NDSU Sunsetters fame)
> Otmar (Mr Zilla)
> Bob R & family (of East coast EV and train fame)
> Dodge Viper Club
> DIscovery Channel?
> and me, Seth A
>
> Who else did I miss?
>
> Is everyone staying by the strip or the dragstrip?
>
> Should we start passing around a contact list off list for who is
> staying where? Maybe trade cell phone numbers (offlist?) That way we
> don't all rent a zillion rental cars at 30+% tax that we don't have to.
> And maybe arrange a dinner someplace cool after the event? No one (of
> note) is playing at the Hard Rock, but I hear there are things to do at
> night in Vegas...
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth A
>
> P.S. is too obvious that I play project manager at work?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have such a setup. I rarely use the 400 amps. I have 250 pounds of lead.
If you had three strings or maybe two of NiZn you would never draw more than
200 amps. No problem with three strings. A bit with two. I have an A89
and unless I am going up a very steep hill I rarely see 400 amps. I use a
1204 48v 400 amp unit. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christian Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: eGPR
> Thank you. So that means if I want a 400 amp controller, I need to
> arrange the batteries (in this case NiZn or LiIon) to provide a
> corresponding amp-hour. It also explains the draw limitations of certain
> chemistries, I think.
>
> Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> >C in this case is the AH capacity of your battery. All deep cycle
> >batteries include an AH rating. I.e. if you are using batteries rated
> >for 50 AH , then 1C would be 50 amps, 2C would be 100 amps and so forth.
> >
> >C can also be used the other way around to indicate a current draw that
> >is less than the rated capacity, I.e. C20 basically means capacity
> >divided by 20. For our hypothetical 50AH battery, C20 would be 1.5
> >amps.
> >
> >The are a couple gotchas that are sort of related to this. Most EVs use
> >Lead-Acid (PbA) batteries. PbA batteries are usually rated at their 20
> >hour rate. This means how many amp hours you can get out of them over
> >20 hours (C20). The problem is that they don't deliver anywhere near
> >that capacity at higher current draws. If we have a PbA battery rated
> >at 200 AH (C20) it will probably only be able to produce 120 AH at the 1
> >hour rate (1C).
> >Also at high current rates batteries experience voltage sag, the higher
> >the current the more they sag. The lower voltage means that you have to
> >draw even more current to provide the same power level.
> >
> >TO answer your second question, using either higher voltage or higher
> >capacity batteries will help solve the problem Higher voltage because
> >that means you need less current to provide a given power level. Higher
> >capacity batteries means that a given current draw will be a smaller C.
> >i.e 100 amps is 2C for a 50AH battery but only 1C for a 100AH battery.
> >
> >
> >On Sun, 2004-01-11 at 12:00, Christian Kocmick wrote:
> >
> >
> >>Some confusion here. When you say 4C or 3C, etc, what does that mean? So
> >>if I have 48 volts of NiZn, at 70lbs, I can't push them past 150 amps
> >>without reducing battery life. Do you mean I should go for higher
> >>voltage or more weight?
> >>I guess I don't understand depletion. (It's been a very long time since
> >>I took electronics)
> >>
> >>Christian
> >>
> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>><<Forgive me if I caught the last half of this, but I am working
towards
> >>>owning an electric GPR which comes with NiZn batteries. Does anyone
know what
> >>>the ev-builders like Phoenix and Electric Motorsport are doing to
replace
> >>>NiZn?>>
> >>>
> >>>Evercells are rated to 4C, which means 70# of the MB40's shouldn't be
pushed
> >>>above 150A - fine for range, not much fun with pocket rockets. I wonder
how
> >>>long a NiZn pack would last in the eGPR I got to test ride, with the
Alltrax
> >>>set at 650A!
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have any recommendations for a US nationwide auto carrier (car
mover)? Experience with EVs would be a plus, but I at least need someone
that will do a good job at a reasonable price.
TIA,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do FastOn connectors loose there grip over the years? My Tropica has 2 Curtis
controllers that are controlled by one throttle pot. I've had a couple of different
flavors of intermittent throttle problems That seem to be releated to the seating of
the FastOns on the Curtis. They feel tight but if I unplug them, clean the blade and
then reinstall them my problems disappear for months. These connectors were installed
9 years ago. Can I have oxidation trouble? Is there something that I should coat the
connector with? It's not in a wet area other than from condensation.
thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is my list from the last time this went around...
Mike Chancey:
I used M & W Trucking, Inc out of Odessa MO. They moved my Forces from New
York to Kansas City for $650 each, and they were quick. Their phone number
is 816-230-7895 or mobile 417-850-8718.
Lonnie Borntreger:
I used TNT - http://www.tnt-inc.com/ - to move my ICE from Chicago to
California. They're a little more expensive, but it was completely
hassle free, with an on-time guarantee - and they have great customer
service.
Here is where I looked to find highly rated transporters in preparation
for my move: http://www.howwerate.com/
Lonnie
James Jarrett:
I used shipauto
http://www.shipauto.com
to ship my Henney from California to NC. There were a couple of false
starts getting the car picked up (the mis-keyed the zip code and went to the
wrong place first time), but other than that it went smoothly. Only cost me
about $900.00 to ship coast to coast and I got it in 4 days.
They do door to door shipping.
Mark Hanson:
I used intercitylines.com 1-800-221-3936 to ship two GE Elec-Tracs,
attachments and associated paraphenalia from Roanoke VA to Inverness,
California last year. Took them a couple weeks to pick up but their prices
were reasonable.
And personally, I used Kiwi Karriers out of Oregon (don't know the number,
but you can find them on a web search or a yellow pages web search of the
area). Others have used them, too, so maybe they'll chime in with a phone
number.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Weaver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:02 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Carrier recommendations
Does anyone have any recommendations for a US nationwide auto carrier (car
mover)? Experience with EVs would be a plus, but I at least need someone
that will do a good job at a reasonable price.
TIA,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like corrosion. Try a good cleaning of both the blade and the
receptacle followed by dabbing on some noalox or similar anti-oxidant.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 12:16 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: FastOn connectors
Do FastOn connectors loose there grip over the years? My Tropica has 2
Curtis controllers that are controlled by one throttle pot. I've had a
couple of different flavors of intermittent throttle problems That seem to
be releated to the seating of the FastOns on the Curtis. They feel tight but
if I unplug them, clean the blade and then reinstall them my problems
disappear for months. These connectors were installed 9 years ago. Can I
have oxidation trouble? Is there something that I should coat the connector
with? It's not in a wet area other than from condensation.
thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:57 AM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
........
So my questions:
1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the main
contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
It is putting some pretty high current pulses on the capacitors in
the controller. How bad this is I don't know. Auburn claimed that it
could cause their caps to fail. I've seen 108v curtis powered cars
run for more than 10 years with no precharging. I've seen others blow
for unknown reasons that might have been related to the lack of
precharge.
2) With Lee's circuit, couldn't the "run" circuit drop out at a
(exceptionally) long stop light?
In Lee's circuit there is no switch on the pot box. So it's different
than the standard voltrabbit wiring. It should stay on as long as the
key is on.
3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
That depends on the controller, load and how far you are waiting for
it to discharge. Seconds to minutes is common.
4) Are there other pre-charge schemes to what i've found and described here?
I'm sure there are many.
One issue to consider is that the precharge can't work if the
controller is trying to drive while precharging. The light bulb or
PTC thermistor are nice because they don't blow up like resistors if
you are trying to drive through them. Ideally the system would not
apply power to the KSI until the precharging is done and the main
contactor is on. This should keep you from trying to drive through
the precharger.
I have a rather elaborate system built in the Zilla package, but
unfortunately it doesn't help you with the Curtis.
HTH,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Over the weekend I finally spent some time chasing a ground fault(s),
but to little good. I disconnected the pack top and bottom (most
positive and most negative) then with voltmeter and parallel load
resistor went looking for the point nearest zero volts relative to the
frame. Then I disconnected the indicated battery. Then the rest of the
pack still showed a leak, but the nearest to zero point moved to a
different area. So disconnected more batteries, and the nearest to zero
point kept moving. I eventually took out the battery that initially
showed the worst problems and discovered a swimming pool - about 1" of
water standing in the bottom of the battery box. Needless to say I
drilled some more drain holes and mopped things up a bit, and repeated
this for a second battery box (only 1/2" water in that one).
I put things back together and still have the same ground faults... I
assume that until I pull all the batteries from all 4 boxes and clean
and dry everything the ground faults will remain. And even with access
to indoor space it is just too cold to be doing that.
Sealed batteries (Orbitals) that never need to be hosed down are looking
better and better.
And my 'average' usage is right on or maybe a hair past the 1C dividing
line so another reason to try AGMs. Either people have expressed this
'rule of thumb' more clearly in recent months or it just took me a while
to catch on, but the significance has slowly sunk in. Unless someone can
re-sell me on NiCads I think the AGMs are next.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S10
1970's Elec-Trak
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
> Hi Seth,
> Hi All;
We'll be at the Cannery Casino-hotel@ 70 a nite, got a car, too, on line@
about 15 bux a day. Cool stuff ya can do on line!And Jet Blue, Wheee! Non
stop from NYC@ 99 bux a seat. Maybe ya can still book the cheapie seats? We
booked last month, so everything was cheaper. I took AK Howard's links he
sent me awile back. It should be fun, looking forward to it.
Seeya there
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gadget and the missus are planning on coming out, but
are not sure if we will be staying in a hotel or
bringing out the solar motorhome. Does anyone know of
any RV parks near the track?
Gadget
--- Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:47 AM
> Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan
> 24th
>
>
> > Hi Seth,
> > Hi All;
>
> We'll be at the Cannery Casino-hotel@ 70 a nite,
> got a car, too, on line@
> about 15 bux a day. Cool stuff ya can do on line!And
> Jet Blue, Wheee! Non
> stop from NYC@ 99 bux a seat. Maybe ya can still
> book the cheapie seats? We
> booked last month, so everything was cheaper. I took
> AK Howard's links he
> sent me awile back. It should be fun, looking
> forward to it.
>
> Seeya there
>
> Bob
>
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The precharge system on my motorcycle is very simple. It's just a
pushbutton switch and a 6 ohm resistor accross the main contact. I hold it
on for about 5 seconds then engage the main contact.
damon
From: Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Pre-charge questions
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:44:30 -0800
At 10:57 AM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
........
So my questions:
1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the main
contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
It is putting some pretty high current pulses on the capacitors in the
controller. How bad this is I don't know. Auburn claimed that it could
cause their caps to fail. I've seen 108v curtis powered cars run for more
than 10 years with no precharging. I've seen others blow for unknown
reasons that might have been related to the lack of precharge.
2) With Lee's circuit, couldn't the "run" circuit drop out at a
(exceptionally) long stop light?
In Lee's circuit there is no switch on the pot box. So it's different than
the standard voltrabbit wiring. It should stay on as long as the key is on.
3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
That depends on the controller, load and how far you are waiting for it to
discharge. Seconds to minutes is common.
4) Are there other pre-charge schemes to what i've found and described
here?
I'm sure there are many.
One issue to consider is that the precharge can't work if the controller is
trying to drive while precharging. The light bulb or PTC thermistor are
nice because they don't blow up like resistors if you are trying to drive
through them. Ideally the system would not apply power to the KSI until the
precharging is done and the main contactor is on. This should keep you from
trying to drive through the precharger.
I have a rather elaborate system built in the Zilla package, but
unfortunately it doesn't help you with the Curtis.
HTH,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Rethink your business approach for the new year with the helpful tips here.
http://special.msn.com/bcentral/prep04.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gadget and the missus are planning on coming out, but
are not sure if we will be staying in a hotel or
bringing out the solar motorhome. Does anyone know of
any RV parks near the track?
I stayed at this one a while ago. It's not far from the track and has
50A outlets good for charging the cars.
Silver Nugget Casino RV park
Mahoney's Silver Nugget Casino is located at 2140 North Las Vegas
Boulevard, North in "Friendly" North Las Vegas, Nevada. We are
located between Lake Mead Boulevard and Civic Center Drive, just 2
miles North of downtown Las Vegas.
2140 N. Las Vegas Blvd..
North Las Vegas, NV 89030
702) 649-7439
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm also hitching a ride with Roderick, but not bringing anything to
race. I hope to have something on the track later in the season though.
Also coming from the L.A. area is "deafscooter" himself, Craig Uyeda
with something small that is sure to be quick and fast. He won the
Anti-gravity EV Expo last year, beating out a field of ETEK powered
monsters. He did it on a lower voltage, custom motor, custom controller,
doped battery setup. Don't know if he is just going to be hanging around
in the pits, or whether he is going to try to get on the track.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:41 AM -0800 1/12/04, Richard Brown wrote:
Vegas is going to be great! It's a great venue and there will be a lot
of great EV people there.
Hey anyone know how much charging power will be there?
Hey Rich,
That's great news! I'm so glad you're coming.
The D7 shows so well and moves out really well too!
I don't know about charging power available.
I'll be bringing a EU2000i 2KW generator. You are most welcome to
share it. If we are short on juice then maybe I can borrow a couple
of EU1000is to parallel with it.
Hey Rod, what's you're solution? Can you get the TV folks to rent a
big generator for us all? :-)
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Chris Weaver wrote:
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a US nationwide auto carrier (car
> mover)? Experience with EVs would be a plus, but I at least need someone
> that will do a good job at a reasonable price.
dependableautoshippers.com shipped my 84 Daytona conversion from the
seller in Burbank to me in Pittsburgh; It took them less than a week from
pickup to dropoff including 2 days delay on the dropoff because I was out
of town.
The seller's comment on the receipt when she gave it to the driver at the
other end was amusing:
"Electric car. Drive like golf cart."
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I don't think he is charging externally...
No, he's not.
> but if he were at 14.5v the PB-A pack would be 0.4vpc above the
> Ni-MH pack nominal level. Is this safe for Ni-MH cells?
Yes, it's a small enough difference not to matter. If anything, it will
tend to undercharge the lead-acids.
> I can see where this would allow longer "stealth" running, but
> without external charging, what's the benefit?
It turns out that increasing the battery capacity increases the time you
can run on electric alone. This reduces ICE run time, and improves gas
mileage in around-town driving, because the ICE doesn't have to start
and stop as often.
> Wouldn't it be nice to try this with grid charging
Yes, though Toyota seems firmly committed to the "you don't have to plug
it in" marketing slogan.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
fred whitridge wrote:
> Otmar seems to just leave a 400 ohm 20w resistor accross the
> main contactor lugs (all the time, I guess switched on by a
> 12v relay activated by the key switch?)
It's Curtis that shows a precharge resistor more-or-less permanently
connected across the main contactor. The drawback is that it runs down
the pack if you leave the car parked for a couple months.
I think Otmar's circuit is more complex than this, but he can answer
himself.
> and Lee Hart uses the circuit below which activates the pre-charge
> circuit when the key switch is held to start
My own EV doesn't use the 'start' position of the key, but is otherwise
pretty similar to the circut you showed. I just posted it to show how
the 'start' position could be used.
So my questions:
1) How bad is it not to pre-charge?
Pretty rough on the main contactors, and hard on the controller's
capacitors.
2) With Lee's circuit, couldn't the "run" circuit drop out at a
(exceptionally) long stop light?
No, because the key stays on. It could if you also included the potbox
switch to drop the main contactor when the accellerator was fully
released.
3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
Many seconds. It depends on the controller, of course. Note that with a
light bulb, it precharges so quickly that you wouldn't really notice it
even if you did drop the main contactor at stops.
4) Are there other pre-charge schemes to what i've found and described
here?
Oh, I'm sure that there *many* more -- as many as there are engineers to
devise them!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> My controller does not used a pre-charger, It is a antique 1975
> CableForm controller that still have the original contact pads!
Ah, but in 1975, controller designers didn't know that input filter
capacitors on the controller improved efficiency. So, you Cableform
doesn't have them. Thus, there is far less inrush current when the
contactor is closed.
> There is a supressor module that is designed for the contactor by
> the manufacturer that bolts onto the contactor.
Yes; basically an RC netowk. That is good practice even today.
> Also my contactors always make and brake without no load.
Yes; contactors last for essentially their full mechanical life when
operated this way (roughly 10 times longer than if they are switched
under load).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> - The e-meter is fairly new (actually a Link-10) so I assume it has
> the "EV filter" circuit included (filter cap on the power input
> as I recall?)
It ought to, but that doesn't mean it does! It's a big 1000uf 50vdc
electrolytic capacitor, 1N4001 blocking diode, and 2.2 ohm resistor. The
capacitor is easy to spot if you don't mind opening the case.
> - The cable I used is somewhat twisted, like a twist or two per inch.
> I have seen much tighter twists in other cables (but not cable with
> needed voltage ratings, shielding, etc.)
That's good enough. Just keep it away from your propulsion wiring, i.e.
don't bundle the E-meter cable to any high-current wires, or run it
through the same hole in a bulkhead.
> - I grounded all the shields to the chassis at the dashboard end.
No; don't ground the shield! The reference ground for the E-meter is
pack negative! Grounding the shield creates a capacitor between the
shunt wires and earth ground, which INJECTS noise into the system.
> - The meter cabling is physically far away from high power cables...
> except the pre-scaler (official Cruising Equipment model) is right
> under the main fuse for the high power line to the controller.
> Oops. Maybe I should move that.
Mainly, I'd worry about the output wires from the prescaler. The red
output wire in particular is going to be noise-sensitive.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Lee Hart wrote:
> 3) How long does it take the caps to self discharge?
>
> Many seconds. It depends on the controller, of course. Note
> that with a light bulb, it precharges so quickly that you
> wouldn't really notice it even if you did drop the main
> contactor at stops.
Ah, but I think Fred's point is that you would notice because with this
circuit, if the main contactor did drop out at a stop, you would have to
turn the key to the 'start' position briefly to re-precharge for it to
pull in again.
Cheers,
Roger.
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
> Do FastOn connectors loose there grip over the years?
Good ones don't, but there are a lot of cheap ones that can.
A good faston is VERY tight; the idea is to be so tight that it scrapes
off any surface corrosion when you install it, and the contact pressure
is so high that it keeps air from getting into the contact surfaces to
cause corrosion. Such a faston might look dull and dirty on the outside,
but if you pull it off there will be a nice shiny spot where the
connection was.
Fastons aren't built for outdoor environments, where they will get wet,
dirty, or salty. Of course, people use them there anyway. If you insist
on doing this, add tape or a plastic body to keep water off the metal.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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Jim Coate wrote:
> - The e-meter is fairly new (actually a Link-10) so I assume
> it has the "EV filter" circuit included (filter cap on the
> power input as I recall?)
Unless you can get someone at Xantrex to confirm that the 'EV filter'
circuit is in your Link-10, it may be safer to assume it isn't and add
it externally yourself. Lee Hart previously posted this schematic and
that he suspects Xantrex may have left the filter out of the Link-10:
> The exact circuit of Cruising Equipment's "EV Filter" is:
>
> +DC meter power___|\|____/\/\/\___________+12v to meter
> (red -- pin 5) |/| 2.2 ohm |
> 1N4001 1/4 watt +_|_ 1000uF
> diode resistor ___ 35vdc
> | capacitor
> -DC negative_________________________|____negative to meter
>
> - The cable I used is somewhat twisted, like a twist or two
> per inch.
This should be fine.
> - I grounded all the shields to the chassis at the dashboard end.
> Perhaps since all the signals involved are relative to pack
> negative, I should hook the shield to that?
The E-meter is not referenced to the chassis at all, so this may be a
big contributor to your problems. Try grounding all shields to pack
-ve, but at the source end, not at the dashboard (E-Meter) end. (Use
the bare 'drain' wire accompanying each twisted pair for the shield
connection.)
> - The meter cabling is physically far away from high power cables...
> except the pre-scaler (official Cruising Equipment model) is
> right under the main fuse for the high power line to the controller.
> Oops. Maybe I should move that.
Worth a shot, but if its location has been unchanged while the E-Meter
behaviour has changed, I would look at the wiring changes first. At the
worst you should be able to get back to the original [mis]behaviour,
then try changing other things if necessary to get to proper behaviour.
Cheers,
Roger.
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This was so simplified that strictly ended up wrong, I agree.
You're almost right if you dig so dip in physics. Electrons move
several mm per second, but the "speed" depends on the field dragging
them along (i.e. voltage).
If you dig deeper, you will discover that there are no moving
electrons per se (nothing physically leaves one end of conductor
and accumulates in another, only charge moves).
Electrons exist in a form of half-matter, half-waves.
Moreover, if you dig in fundamentals, there are no "voltages"
or "currents" exist around us, only electric and magnetic fields.
We use voltages and currents to describe and measure effect
of these fields.
Let's not go there.
Victor
ps,. Sorry, I can't point you to a references for these statements.
This is what they teach, I remember this well.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2004-01-09 at 16:31, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Sam Uzi wrote:
> > >
> > > <dipstick question>
> > >
> > > the electrons are moving slower (lower voltage) because the plates (I
> > > presume) are thicker, which allows them to ablate for a longer time? a
> > > matter of available surface area? ...or something like that?
> > >
> > > </dipstick question>
> >
> > FWIW, electrons moving slower means lower current, not lower voltage.
> > Less quantity of them (than in other conductor) would constitute less
> > voltage between these conductors.
>
> Umm, sorry Victor, but that's pretty much completely wrong.
>
> The electrons always move at the same speed through a give medium
> regardless of voltage OR current (right near the speed of light).
>
> The quantity of electrons moving past a given point relates to the
> Amperage, not voltage.
> Voltage is the FORCE of the electrons moving, also referred to as EMF or
> Electro Motive Force.
>
> Using the water analogy Voltage is pressure, like in PSI, and current is
> quantity as in gallons per minute. Taking it further, the size of our
> water pipe would represent the resistance of our circuit. A larger pipe
> (lower resistance) will allow more water to flow (higher current) for a
> given pressure (voltage).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Lee,
Thanks. Just a clarification. The application is no more wet than under the hood of a
car. There can be no direct splash nor can rain get to it. However it gets cold a
night, alright not your kind of cold, and moisture in the air could condense on it.
Steve
In a message dated 1/12/2004 6:03:22 PM Eastern Standard Time, Lee Hart <[EMAIL
PROTECTED]> writes:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote
>> Do FastOn connectors loose there grip over the years?
>
>Good ones don't, but there are a lot of cheap ones that can.
>
>A good faston is VERY tight; the idea is to be so tight that it scrapes
>off any surface corrosion when you install it, and the contact pressure
>is so high that it keeps air from getting into the contact surfaces to
>cause corrosion. Such a faston might look dull and dirty on the outside,
>but if you pull it off there will be a nice shiny spot where the
>connection was.
>
>Fastons aren't built for outdoor environments, where they will get wet,
>dirty, or salty. Of course, people use them there anyway. If you insist
>on doing this, add tape or a plastic body to keep water off the metal.
>--
>Lee A. Hart � � � � � � � �Ring the bells that still can ring
>814 8th Ave. N. � � � � � �Forget your perfect offering
>Sartell, MN 56377 USA � � �There is a crack in everything
>leeahart_at_earthlink.net �That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
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Aaron Birenboim wrote:
>
> Does anybody know anything about this:
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2453448878&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1
>
> Sounds like a nice van with advanced drive system.
> Experimental batteries (i think they were sodium-sulpher or
> something... arent those volitile?)
>
> AC drive, sounds like it was integrated into an experimental axle.
> Any chance that this is maintainable?
> I would immagine that it is possible to get a title
> on such a vehicle, but difficult.
> --
> Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
> Albuquerque, NM |
> aaron_at_birenboim.com |
> >http://aaron.boim.com |
Read further down the page: battery is not included.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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If there is a better way, they you could always just do it yourself.
Subscribe your favorite web software to the list and have your software
parse the emails into the forums as you choose.
The moderation efforts may not be trivial, but if it was truely better for
EVeryone, surely it would catch on nicely. If it continues to send out
emails as it does today (backwards compatible) then nothing is lost.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
> At 10:57 AM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
> >Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
>
> ........
>
> >So my questions:
> >1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the
main
> >contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
>
> It is putting some pretty high current pulses on the capacitors
in
> the controller. How bad this is I don't know. Auburn claimed
that it
> could cause their caps to fail. I've seen 108v curtis powered
cars
> run for more than 10 years with no precharging. I've seen
others blow
> for unknown reasons that might have been related to the lack of
> precharge.
I have a 1231C in my 96V Rabbit, which was changed from the
standard VoltsRabbit setup. Electrically, it's VoltsRabbit with
a 1231C enhancement; however, positionally the
controller/contactor scene is quite different. The standard
VoltsRabbit setup has the contactor controlled by the accelerator
pedal, so the contactor (and the controller) see a lot of on/off.
I do try to keep the contactor closed if I can, but if I have to
use the brake, well then, my foot comes off the accelerator.
Clunk. I get tired of the clack/clunk, and I do wonder about the
wear and tear.
The 1231C has been in there since 1996, and remains happy as a
clam. No precharge circuit. My contactor has had some
problems - about every two years for the last four or five, it
will start getting into this mode of not closing, so the trick I
learned is to just leave the accelerator pedal slightly down, so
it should close, and it eventually does in five minutes or so.
Once closed, things usually open and close ok for that run. I
assume it warms up enough to overcome the crud in the shaft where
the contactor assembly slides. A good flush with WD40 seems to
cure the problem for a couple of years. The contactor is on its
side.
I'd like to get a pre-charge circuit set up (just one of a
million things to do to that car...), and I have also thought
about going to key-switch control of the contactor. However, my
recent experience with speed surges (last Oct or so) leaves me
feeling like it might almost be better to keep the control of the
contactor with the accelerator pedal (aka deadman). It's faster
to drop the foot off the accelerator pedal if something goes
wrong than it is to get the left foot pushing down on the clutch
(and then unloading the motor). However, the surges have been
fixed, but not forgotten...
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck, what about using a second contactor? The first in the line would
open/close based on keyswitch position only. The next downstream (closer to
the controller) would be bridged by a precharge resistor, and would be
controlled by keyswitch current interrupted by the accelerator pedal. No
appreciable current would flow during stop, but charge would be maintained
through the resistor. Any controller fault at stop would draw enough
current to blow the resistor.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Hursch [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 3:09 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Pre-charge questions
Otmar wrote:
> At 10:57 AM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
> >Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
>
> ........
>
> >So my questions:
> >1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the
main
> >contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
>
> It is putting some pretty high current pulses on the capacitors
in
> the controller. How bad this is I don't know. Auburn claimed
that it
> could cause their caps to fail. I've seen 108v curtis powered
cars
> run for more than 10 years with no precharging. I've seen
others blow
> for unknown reasons that might have been related to the lack of
> precharge.
I have a 1231C in my 96V Rabbit, which was changed from the
standard VoltsRabbit setup. Electrically, it's VoltsRabbit with
a 1231C enhancement; however, positionally the
controller/contactor scene is quite different. The standard
VoltsRabbit setup has the contactor controlled by the accelerator
pedal, so the contactor (and the controller) see a lot of on/off.
I do try to keep the contactor closed if I can, but if I have to
use the brake, well then, my foot comes off the accelerator.
Clunk. I get tired of the clack/clunk, and I do wonder about the
wear and tear.
The 1231C has been in there since 1996, and remains happy as a
clam. No precharge circuit. My contactor has had some
problems - about every two years for the last four or five, it
will start getting into this mode of not closing, so the trick I
learned is to just leave the accelerator pedal slightly down, so
it should close, and it eventually does in five minutes or so.
Once closed, things usually open and close ok for that run. I
assume it warms up enough to overcome the crud in the shaft where
the contactor assembly slides. A good flush with WD40 seems to
cure the problem for a couple of years. The contactor is on its
side.
I'd like to get a pre-charge circuit set up (just one of a
million things to do to that car...), and I have also thought
about going to key-switch control of the contactor. However, my
recent experience with speed surges (last Oct or so) leaves me
feeling like it might almost be better to keep the control of the
contactor with the accelerator pedal (aka deadman). It's faster
to drop the foot off the accelerator pedal if something goes
wrong than it is to get the left foot pushing down on the clutch
(and then unloading the motor). However, the surges have been
fixed, but not forgotten...
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
