EV Digest 3277
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Dualin'7 going to Vegas
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Thanks for pre-charge input
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: e-meter interference?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Carrier recommendations
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) nicad "F" cells on ebay
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Battery Choices
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Wabbit Weport -- On the Woad!!!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) E-woody repairs, mods, was Re: E-Woody take a hit!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: nicad "F" cells on ebay
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Carrier recommendations
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) EV bus on Ebay
by JD & Heather <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battery Choices
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
by meat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Pre-charge questions
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Battery Choices
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Battery Choices
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Fisher Fury EV Concept: Are these figures possible? Critiscisms? Comments?
Recommendations?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich, It will be good to see you again. Richard Furniss is procuring two of
the large trailer gensets.
Roderick
Suck Amps EV Racing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Richard Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:41 AM
Subject: Dualin'7 going to Vegas
> Hi everyone,
>
> Ahhhhh...thats what the D'7 is saying as it sucks up 26 amps
> from the beta version of Manzanita Micro's PFC-20 battery charger.
> I haven't had the D'7 at a NEDRA event in a while, but money is
> a bit more plentiful so... I've kept the batteries charged, but they
> needed waking up. I'll put some cycles on for a couple days
> then see how much rubber I can lay on the road. Hmmm...
> lots to do...gotta check the fluid in the overdrive, put the drag tires
> on, install the exterior on/off switch, check the controllers and
> bypass contactor function (that's fun!).
>
> Vegas is going to be great! It's a great venue and there will be a lot
> of great EV people there.
>
> Hey anyone know how much charging power will be there?
>
> Rich Brown
> San Jose, CA
> Dualin'7 NEDRA SC/E and SC/F record holder
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
roland, Rod, Lee, Otmar, Chuck, Dave:
(and any others I forgot)....thanks for your inputs on precharge. My
immediate problem was one of those durn current limiting devices (aka a
fuse) which blew with heater and too many other loads on it. I'm at
least back to as wired: contactor closes every time the accelerator is
depressed.
Rod: I like the idea of an NTC but confess to being baffled as to
sizing/speccing the thing. I have a Curtis 1231 and a 120volt system
but I would imagine the initial inrush could be quite humongous?
Lee: In your system with a pot controlling k2, what range pot should I
use? Wattage is based on pre-charge relay coil impedance I know...
What DO you use to fire the pre-charge circuit if not the starter
position on the key switch (which I'd have to do some rooting around to
find as it was long ago excised....) How about a simple timer circuit
connected to a SPDT relay, where the normally closed position sends
juice to the contactor coil and the timed, energized, NO position is the
pre-charge. And what would such a beast look like? A 555 circuit? an RC
circuit?
Otmar: Can you describe the operation of your pre-charge circuit? How
long does a 'Zilla take to lose the charge on its caps?
Thanks all,
Fred
More reports from Ice Station Zebra cold weather NiZn runs now that the
car is on the road again and the temps are projected to head back to 0
degrees F (yes Lee that warm!) later in the week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It will be down to the last minute but the CURRENT ELIMINATOR should also be
there running in the ice gambler lanes.The mass destruction of the backup
motor 2 months ago has been repaired except for the brush advance drive motor.It
will not be ready in time but for bracket racing we do not need it.We do have
another brush/comm.bar shield in place the original one .120 lexan was also
destroyed by flying comm.bars.The new shield is a qt.in. thick lexan.CE will be
dialed in at a very slow 12.97et,and 120mph to do battle with the ices.Samples
of flung out comm. bars will be on display,come see what 9000rpm can do to a
large GE.My miller 15kw welder genset single or 3 phase running on bio will
also be avaible in case its needed.I only need it for 4 to 5 minutes each run.
Dennis Kilowatt Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> We'll be at the Cannery Casino-hotel@ 70 a nite, got a car, too, on
line@
> about 15 bux a day. Cool stuff ya can do on line!And Jet Blue, Wheee! Non
> stop from NYC@ 99 bux a seat. Maybe ya can still book the cheapie seats?
We
> booked last month, so everything was cheaper. I took AK Howard's links he
> sent me awile back. It should be fun, looking forward to it.
Hey Bob,
Well it looks like unfortunately that pressing business obligations on the
`23-25th will preclude me from making it to Vegas. Bummer cause I was
looking foreward to seeing you and hanging out. Was planning on driving the
MH with the 6.5KW Onan and staying at the track. Oh well, sigh. Have a good
time and hopefully I will see ya next year! Or maybe there will be an EVent
in Phx soon. Good luck to all, regards David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lee,
I am going to install a Link-10 in my EV. The EV has battery Volt and Amp
meters, a motor Volt and Amp meters, 3 sets of regenerative volt and amp
meters, all was originally used for research purposes.
I still have lots of room on the dash instrument plates for additional
meters. Some day I will combined them into a computer monitor read out.
In this Link-10 installation, I have to install the shunt in rear
compartment of car, so as to take off the battery circuit, that is also fed
by the battery charger.
This distance from controller to shunt is 15 feet. It will take 25 feet of
cable from the on dash meter to this shunt.
I plan to used a cable that I have in stock, that consist of 6 strand silver
tin No 18 and NO 16 wires that are individual shield. The 6 shield wires
have a insulated jacket which are shield again, and a third layer of
insulation and shield.
This will have to run in 8 inch square cable and conduit duct way that goes
from one end of the car to the other.
In this duct way there are the two 180 VDC 4/0 wires from the battery power
unit. There are also battery charger indicators and battery indicators
wires in this duct.
Normally this triple shield wire would have triple shield metal cable
connectors on both ends that also connects to the shields.
Your suggestion of not ground these to earth or chassic ground, I will just
heat shrink each shield end.
I will test out the last shield by grounding it to chassic ground. My
chassic ground is isolated from the motor control and battery power system.
Also it is isolated from the AC ground. All the components and batterys are
in fiberglass enclosures.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 3:46 PM
Subject: Re: e-meter interference?
> Jim Coate wrote:
> > - The e-meter is fairly new (actually a Link-10) so I assume it has
> > the "EV filter" circuit included (filter cap on the power input
> > as I recall?)
>
> It ought to, but that doesn't mean it does! It's a big 1000uf 50vdc
> electrolytic capacitor, 1N4001 blocking diode, and 2.2 ohm resistor. The
> capacitor is easy to spot if you don't mind opening the case.
>
> > - The cable I used is somewhat twisted, like a twist or two per inch.
> > I have seen much tighter twists in other cables (but not cable with
> > needed voltage ratings, shielding, etc.)
>
> That's good enough. Just keep it away from your propulsion wiring, i.e.
> don't bundle the E-meter cable to any high-current wires, or run it
> through the same hole in a bulkhead.
>
> > - I grounded all the shields to the chassis at the dashboard end.
>
> No; don't ground the shield! The reference ground for the E-meter is
> pack negative! Grounding the shield creates a capacitor between the
> shunt wires and earth ground, which INJECTS noise into the system.
>
> > - The meter cabling is physically far away from high power cables...
> > except the pre-scaler (official Cruising Equipment model) is right
> > under the main fuse for the high power line to the controller.
> > Oops. Maybe I should move that.
>
> Mainly, I'd worry about the output wires from the prescaler. The red
> output wire in particular is going to be noise-sensitive.
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Chris,
What I did was, flew to the EV company which was Just north of Detroit and
drove it back to
Montana..............................................................In a
U-haul auto Carrior.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Weaver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, January 12, 2004 11:02 AM
Subject: Carrier recommendations
> Does anyone have any recommendations for a US nationwide auto carrier (car
> mover)? Experience with EVs would be a plus, but I at least need someone
> that will do a good job at a reasonable price.
>
> TIA,
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not sure, but maybe someone could make a good motorcycle pack, or rippin'
scooter pack out of these
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2978145245&category=43447
Carl Clifford
Denver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
>
> Some questions come to mind. The tZero used Lion's Gate Lithium Ion 18650
> cells and Tom Gage drove the tZero 302 miles, from northern LA to the
> southern Bay area, at an average speed of 60 mph. How come there was no
> mention of any battery sag as with the Thunder Sky?
It is probably small, but measurable. However, why mention it for
marketing? Also, AC system can accept very wide voltage range as
an input, so the sag doesn't matter that much, not to mention that
during max range test unlikely t-zero was exercising ability to
accelerate 0-60 in 3.6 sec - it is too wasteful.
> Also with an
> acceleration of 0 to 60 in 3.6 seconds, you would expect there to be sag.
> Was there? Before bugging Tom with these likely redundant questions, does
> anyone know the answers?
See above.
My thunder-sky energy pack of course is no match to t-zero's power pack.
But even so, who cares if 380V (initially) pack sags almost twice
to 200V at the end of hard acceleration?
My system happily accepts 200V, and 200V EV is still pretty peppy one.
At such a load the current is relatively high, and the power is what
matters for acceleration. You don't "feel" the sag unless it becomes
limiting factor.
I'm sure in t-zero the sag is taken into account and the minimum
voltage its drive accepts is set pretty low to extend car's good
range even further for PR purpose.
Keep in mind, LiIon discharge curve is pretty flat until near 100%
SOC, so with light load (cruising) there is no much sag at all.
...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
F.T. here on Roderick's home computer. The last few days I've been
up here at EV Parts preparing the "Silver Bullet" for it's journey to
Las Vegas. The battery box for the 4 strings of SVR 14 amp hour
batteries runing 156 volts has been removed and replaced by the
original battery box which now holds two strings of Exide XCDs at 120
volts. This makes the "Silver Bullet" 175 pounds heavier but it
should give us a full 3600 amps. (Hey Rich, Are you running 120 or
144 volts?). Dragon Amps will be running 48 volts with a change in
sprocket ratio since Woodburn.
Meanwhile back at the ranch Dragon Rose has just been prepared with
another ratio change. I am changing from 15 to 51 to 16 to 51 ratio.
Hopefully this will give the bike a better top end since we have
excessive torque at the bottom end. We hope to be also bringing
scoot-a-loo, a toy I built for Steve Kiser. It's a stretched and hot
rodded Zappy board scooter. Roderick is also bringing a streaminer
barstool that came in second in it's class at Bonneville Salt Flats
last season. See you in Vegas.
Father Time
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Wabbit is Wunning!
Over the last few days, I finished up the fan/pump control and got the
heater up and running. Today, I took the Wabbit on a 30 mile cruise around
the neighborhood. Everything worked perfectly.
>>> Flight path, Range estimate <<<<
Since I basically circled my neighborhood, never getting much beyond
walking distance from my house, most of the 30 miles was stop-and-go
side-street driving. (Towards the end of this shake-down cruise, I did go
for an 8 mile highway jaunt.) I used up about 60 amp-hours of the 100
amp-hr capacity. This means that I have at least 50 miles range, and
perhaps has much as 65 miles range.
On the highway, I was drawing about 100 amps (or a touch more) to go 65
mph. Since the NiCads are rated at 100 a-hrs at this rate, it's a fair
estimate that the car will go 65 miles.
>>> "Pep" <<<
I have to be somewhat restrained in my driving compared with Optima
YellowTops. The SAFT MRE-100 NiCad manual rates the batteries at 200 amps
continuous and 500 peak for 10 seconds. Driving like a normal person in a
normal car, I have no difficulty staying within these limits. I have not
felt the need to push the pack over 300 amps, even on the entrance ramp.
Holding the car at the 200 amp mark results in acceleration that matches or
slightly exceeds the ICE cars surrounding me in traffic.
The NiCads have a very different "feel" than lead-acid batteries. The
voltage is rock solid, even after I had drawn 60 a-hrs out of them. Unlike
lead acid, the voltage does not drift upward while you are sitting at a
light, but stays pretty much steady.
>>> Comissioning Charge <<<<
I ran the SAFT mandated "commissioning" charge last weekend. This calls
for a 50% overcharge at 10 amps. Yes, 50%. =:^O I made enough hydrogen to
fill the Hindenberg. I was careful not to make any sparks in the garage, at
least near the car or near the ceiling. :^) The batteries drank nearly 3
gallons of distilled water afterwards.
>>> Heater Details <<<
I rigged the heater so that the ceramic elements would not go on unless
the fan motor was getting voltage. I did this after the switch, but before
the dropping resistors, using four diodes. The diodes "OR" the fans switch
output and supply 12 volts to the heater switch on the dash. The dash
switch supplies 12 volts to the coil of the heater element relay. I used an
after market fog light switch so it matched the other rocker switches on
the dash.
I'm running two ceramic elements side-by-side where the heater core used
to go. I am running them in the "medium" setting. That is, I have connected
the center tap to the plus and the two end taps to the minus of the pack.
This delivers about 1500 watts and draws about 10 amps from the pack. Seems
to be plenty of heat.
>>>> Pumping while charging and driving <<<
Steve Ciciora came up with the solution to run the battery coolant pump
and fan when I am charging. Similar to the heater, I used a pair of diodes
to "OR" to current input to the fan and pump. When the car is running, the
pump gets its power from the regular 12 volt accessory bus (controlled by
the keyswitch) of the car. When the car is plugged in, the pump and fan get
their power from a Toshiba laptop AC adaptor, powered by via AC. The laptop
AC adaptor is rated to accept and input from 100 to 240 VAC. Thus, it won't
care whether I plug the PFC-20 into 120 or 240 VAC.
>>>> Electric Commute, PFC-20 Charger <<<<
I plan to drive the Wabbit 28 miles to Boulder (from my home in Denver)
tomorrow. With a bit of effort, I have obtained permission to plug in at a
spot near my new workplace (NOAA.) Thus, I will get the extra electrons I
will need for the return trip.
The PFC-20 <http://www.manzanitamicro.com> is so efficient, that I only
need a 120 volt outlet to get all the juice I need for my commute. Unlike
the NG-3 I used to use, the PFC-20 will accept nearly any voltage. The
PFC-20 also gets full wattage from the 120 V, 20 amp outlet. It is a lot
easier to find a 120 volt outlet than it is to get a 208 or 240 volt
outlet. They don't have to run anything special for you, so it is much
simpler to plug in at work.
Its also nice to be able to hump 4000 watts into the pack at home using
240 volts without using a separate charger.
Nice charger. :^) Soon, I will build it a "brain." It already has a lot of
heart. I wonder if I can install "courage" somehow?
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steve and All,
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Jerry ,
> This is really an up beat post for almost being
> killed by a probable
> drunk,uninsured,maybe unlicenced driver who didn't
> even stop to see if you
> were hurt. "Speeding fast and furious type," is
> realy too kind.
Well I was happy to be alive ;-). And it never
pays to dwell on the negative.
It also gave me and other 3wh light weight EV
builders some good data on building in safety without
too much extra weight. Book learning only goes so
far, you got to build some and find out what happens.
My descriptions were mostly for those currently
designing 3 wh EV's as there is little data on how
they react in a crash. Anyway we can make them safer
is good.
The sloped rear and the tire, rear suspension as
crash protection along with low forward CG helped
safety a lot without adding much weight.
Also repair material costs will be under $100
though quite a few hrs of labor so out of pocket costs
were low.
>
>
> > Another happy thing was my rear crash
> protection
> > worked very well!
>
> > . Beats paying
> > autobody, boatyard repair bills and waiting for it
> to
> > be done!!
>
>
> It's realy hard sometimes when stuff like this
> happens to see the good in it
> but you have a very positive attutide about it , I'm
> sure your e- woody will
> be up and running in no time. I though it was a rear
It's looking like tomarrow to get back on the
road as today epoxied back on the trailing arm
brackets, motor bulkhead, removed the bent 9/16" pivot
rod.
Pick up tomarrow the new Hijacker air lift
shock, tail light, remount the motor, chain, pivot and
it's ready to drive. Finishing the cosmetics during
the week.
> wheel drive , is all
> that OK , ?
Yes! Other than the motor bolts pulling out of
the bulkhead the whole drivetrain seems good. We'll
find out in the test ride.
As I remember it was a city car motor ,
> 48 volt , ?
Yes but was running on 36vdc. When this happened
I had already bought a new 56 tooth sprocket to
replace the 42 tooth one on it now. 9 tooth primary
sprocket.
Next week I'll install it to cut down the high
amp draw, which is limiting range and acceleration. To
make up the speed will go to 48 vdc pack and field
weakening to get 55 mph.
Also need the extra gearing to tow my new
trailer.
>
>
> > Then it will be time to test my new generator
> and
> > my new trailer for the woody so it will have
> unlimited
> > range at 55mph and carry a small, 12' sailboat/
> > camper/ hauling trailer.
> > So apparently a wooden EV can take a licking
> and
> > come out well! Who knew?
> > jerry dycus
> >
>
> apparently your e-woody can take,,,,,,,, . Glad to
> hear your Ok, hope to
> see you and E W at the Florida april EV rally .
Before this happened I was on track to get the
gen,trailer, sprocket done so to get to the the next
Fla EAA meeting. Hopefully it all will be ready for
long trips in a couple of weeks.
BTW I did check the leftover parts from the other
car but none had ID numbers on them. Saved them
though.
Thanks All,
jerry dycus
> Steve Clunn
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the "Signing Bonus" Sweepstakes
http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 14:05:54 -0500
----- Original Message -----
From: Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2004 12:47 AM
Subject: Re: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
> Hi Seth,
> Hi All;
We'll be at the Cannery Casino-hotel@ 70 a nite, got a car, too, on
line@
about 15 bux a day. Cool stuff ya can do on line!And Jet Blue, Wheee! Non
stop from NYC@ 99 bux a seat. Maybe ya can still book the cheapie seats? We
booked last month, so everything was cheaper. I took AK Howard's links he
sent me awile back. It should be fun, looking forward to it.
Seeya there
Bob
Thank you Bob, I thought I would repost some of my old information
concerning Las Vegas.
Cannery Hotel and Casino on Craig Rd about 1 mile west of Interstate 15
(Exit 48)
www.cannerycasinos.com
Speedway Casino and Hotel at Cheyenne Ave and I-15 (Exit 46)
www.speedwaycasino.com
The Las Vegas Motor Speedway is located at Exit 54 on I-15. www.lvms.com
It is about 20 miles from McCarran International Airport to the LVMS
driving straight north on I-15.
The Cannery has several good restaurants including a large all you can eat
buffet. The Speedway Casino has a modest and decent sit down restaurant.
This was where we had our after race dinner last year.
There is no shortage of good places to eat and things to do here in Las
Vegas.
Regards, A.K. Howard, in pleasantly cool parts of Las Vegas, and having
fun at 8 cents per kwh.
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online virus check for your PC here, from McAfee.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Jan 12, 2004 at 05:31:28PM -0700, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2978145245&category=43447
Hopefully he doesn't really want $300 for each cell. :-)
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge
(_ | |_) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://ecloud.org:8080
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Chris Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Carrier recommendations
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 10:02:03 -0800
Does anyone have any recommendations for a US nationwide auto carrier (car
mover)? Experience with EVs would be a plus, but I at least need someone
that will do a good job at a reasonable price.
TIA,
Chris
Might want to check out Passport Transport, which is a a division of
FedEx.
www.passporttransport.com.
Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas NV.
_________________________________________________________________
Check out the new MSN 9 Dial-up � fast & reliable Internet access with prime
features! http://join.msn.com/?pgmarket=en-us&page=dialup/home&ST=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So what, if anything, is small enough to be used in one of our "normal" EVs?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2452154897&category=6728
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Victor,
Thanks for your reply. You wrote:
" My system happily accepts 200V, and 200V EV is still pretty peppy one.
At such a load the current is relatively high, and the power is what
matters for acceleration. You don't "feel" the sag unless it becomes
limiting factor."
Would you mind going into some detail on this? How much current are we
talking about when the voltage drops to 200V?
"I think I understand the sag becoming a limiting factor." If I were to
describe it I think I would say that the voltage output is restricted by the
battery chemistry (high Puekert's number) to the point where the voltage
drops and the current is not enough to give high enough wattage for the
desired acceleration.
Is this a reasonable concept?
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to be in town that weekend. I'll be dropping by.
Your pal,
Meat.
Bob Rice wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, December 27, 2003 9:52 AM
Subject: head count for NEDRA pre-season Jan 24th
Ok, I am still looking to buy a ticket. Do we have a current headcount?
Seth A
Hi EVerybody;
Count me in, got Jet Blue passes in hand, goin' out Fri, home Mon.,
staying at the Cannery Hotel, near the strip, DRAG strip, that is. Doing
some of the sites, time permitting, getting a cheepo Thrigfty Car rental. A
mini Vavation, should be fun!See ya all there?
Sayin' Seeya and meaning it.
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
>
> Otmar wrote:
> > At 10:57 AM -0500 1/12/04, fred whitridge wrote:
> > >Lee, Otmar, Mike, Shari (and other pre-charge experts):
> >
> > ........
> >
> > >So my questions:
> > >1) How bad is it not to pre-charge? I note the pitting of the
> main
> > >contactor contacts but what is it doing to the controller?
> >
> > It is putting some pretty high current pulses on the capacitors
> in
> > the controller. How bad this is I don't know. Auburn claimed
> that it
> > could cause their caps to fail. I've seen 108v curtis powered
> cars
> > run for more than 10 years with no precharging. I've seen
> others blow
> > for unknown reasons that might have been related to the lack of
> > precharge.
>
> I have a 1231C in my 96V Rabbit, which was changed from the
> standard VoltsRabbit setup. Electrically, it's VoltsRabbit with
> a 1231C enhancement; however, positionally the
> controller/contactor scene is quite different. The standard
> VoltsRabbit setup has the contactor controlled by the accelerator
> pedal, so the contactor (and the controller) see a lot of on/off.
> I do try to keep the contactor closed if I can, but if I have to
> use the brake, well then, my foot comes off the accelerator.
> Clunk. I get tired of the clack/clunk, and I do wonder about the
> wear and tear.
>
> The 1231C has been in there since 1996, and remains happy as a
> clam. No precharge circuit. My contactor has had some
> problems - about every two years for the last four or five, it
> will start getting into this mode of not closing, so the trick I
> learned is to just leave the accelerator pedal slightly down, so
> it should close, and it eventually does in five minutes or so.
> Once closed, things usually open and close ok for that run. I
> assume it warms up enough to overcome the crud in the shaft where
> the contactor assembly slides. A good flush with WD40 seems to
> cure the problem for a couple of years. The contactor is on its
> side.
>
> I'd like to get a pre-charge circuit set up (just one of a
> million things to do to that car...), and I have also thought
> about going to key-switch control of the contactor. However, my
> recent experience with speed surges (last Oct or so) leaves me
> feeling like it might almost be better to keep the control of the
> contactor with the accelerator pedal (aka deadman). It's faster
> to drop the foot off the accelerator pedal if something goes
> wrong than it is to get the left foot pushing down on the clutch
> (and then unloading the motor). However, the surges have been
> fixed, but not forgotten...
Are you using a DC/DC converter, or just running off a 12v accessory
battery? If there's no DC/DC converter and you have a lot of 12v loads
on (headlights, heater fan blower, windshield wipers, etc.) then you may
be pulling the 12v down so far that the contactor won't pull in when its
coil is hot.
I had this problem with my ComutaVan. The solution was to
a) Improve the 12v wiring. With 12.0v at the battery, I only had 10.2v
at the contactor coil (a 1.8v drop) due to all the cheap wire,
switches, connectors, and fuses in the circuit. Rewiring it with
heavier wire and fewer connectors brought it up to 11.5v (a 0.5v
drop).
b) Added a 'slugger' circuit in series with the coil. The contactor
coil draws so much current that it gets hot. The heat raises the
coil's resistance so it needs more voltage to pull in when hot.
I added a 'slugger' circuit; a 10w resistor of the same value as
the coil (about 7 ohms) with a 4700uF 16vdc capacitor in parallel,
and this combination in series with the coil. When 12v is first
applied, the capacitor is at 0 volts, so the coil gets the full
12v. Then the capacitor charges, and the resistor limits the coil
voltage to about 6v. This is enough to hold it pulled in. The coil
is now dissipating only 1/4th the power, and runs far cooler.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
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--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
>
> Hi Victor,
>
> Thanks for your reply. You wrote:
>
> " My system happily accepts 200V, and 200V EV is still pretty peppy one.
> At such a load the current is relatively high, and the power is what
> matters for acceleration. You don't "feel" the sag unless it becomes
> limiting factor."
>
> Would you mind going into some detail on this? How much current are we
> talking about when the voltage drops to 200V?
About 140A battery current
>
> "I think I understand the sag becoming a limiting factor." If I were to
> describe it I think I would say that the voltage output is restricted by the
> battery chemistry (high Puekert's number) to the point where the voltage
> drops and the current is not enough to give high enough wattage for the
> desired acceleration.
>
> Is this a reasonable concept?
>
> Peter
It is rather restricted by the low voltage limit setting in the
inverter,
but you reach this limit only at high RPM where the battery current
(and so the voltage sag) are largest. I'll try to explain.
For simplicity let's forget about inverter efficiency; assume
it has no power loss (100% efficient, real number is 88%...96%
depending on the pack voltage), so power in equals power out.
On the battery side the voltage (ideally) is constant, and the current
raise as you accelerate and demand more power, P=U*I. When I start
accelerating, the battery current gradually raise from single amps
to about 100A. On the motor side, the current (and so torque)
is constant, usually about 300A peak (212 rms) per phase, but
since power in = power out, the voltage must rise from 0 to whatever
to get the same power as on the battery side. So inverter just
converts constant voltage/raising current on the battery side
to constant current/rising voltage on the motor side.
Now. There are conditions where the drive system limits max power
rather than the battery, especially in low RPM range. For example,
say, I limit battery current in inverter software to safe (for
LiIons) 90A.
So until I hit this current, the motor current (inverter output
current) is limitation for acceleration rate and the sag for
below 90A is relatively small. When I hit 90A battery current limit
(at, say, 5000 RPM), only then this becomes acceleration rate limiter.
And if I limit low voltage to some unreasonably high value (say, 350V,
not allowing deep sags), inverter will cut down battery current as soon
as
the battery voltage reach this voltage, and that can be as soon as
I draw 50A (at, say, 3000 RPM), so then this becomes limiting factor,
although the battery is capable dishing out more current.
You can't get enough wattage at low speeds, because the power is
torque*RPM. Torque is limited by IGBTs current, and if RPM is
low, the product of the two is also low, no matter what you do.
At high speeds, on the motor side the IGBT current is the same,
but the voltage, fighting back EMF is high (so is the power).
So the power on the battery is high too, meaning high battery
current.
Bottom line is the limiting factor depends on how you drive;
can be battery or the drive system.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
On 12 Jan 2004 at 11:35, Jim Coate wrote:
> Wasn't the consensus that the SAFT NiCad EV modules (100's & 140's)
> don't tolerate high currents?
Heat is their enemy, and they have internal resistance that's appreciably
higher than the typical AGM, so high current service will have a negative
effect on life. If your drive routinely eats 500 amps, you should consider
a double string of STM5-100MRs or (probably) a single string of STM5-180s.
STM5-140MRs should be able to deliver 300-350 amps in a single string. If
you use parallel strings, you'll probably want to charge the strings with
separate charge controllers.
Good cooling is extremely important when you are frequently asking for high
currents. However, the last time I checked, only the 100s were available as
liquid cooled modules.
I've heard that the earlier STM5 range with cell caps (not the closed-top MR
reduced maintenance modules) suffered less from heat problems.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've posted here about a month ago with an idea of building
a ~$50,000 EV that could do 0-60 in 5, 200 mile range, 120+
mph top end, and heard the typical can/ cannot do sides of
the argument, and I've done a little more research on the
subject. I've talked to Wayland about the Evercells a few
suggested and found that their voltage sag is hideous at
300-500 amp draws and that they wouldn't be very suitable
for high performance unless it was used in an extremely
light and low drag car(Like the Insight proposal).
ThunderSkys would give great range, but since I hear many
aren't able to get near the claimed 300A draw, their
performance would be lacking, only being able to go up to
50A or so without completely roasting them. Worleys from
Australia are quite high priced though, although they'd be
usable. For somewhat affordable performance for a single
volume production, it generally has to be Optimas or
Excides. Lead acid are bad in cold weather and lose power,
without proper heating systems. Their cost per mile
operation over the battery life is high compared to the
Evercel NiZn or to Li Ions and cancels out the savings over
an ICE, even though they could get 50-60 miles with a 216V
pack on a very light car and would really perform like mad
with a Godzilla 2k. So, I've been thinking lately.
How about something that could be built for around $25,000,
0-60 around high 6 range, 140+ MPH top speed, 70-100 mile
range, ~150 wh per mile highway consumption @55 MPH, and
superb handling even with Nokia low rolling loss 13 inch
tires?
Maybe it's possible. The Fisher Fury kit car, produced by
Fisher Sports cars, using a Hayabusa motorcycle engine and
very few "creature comforts" comes in at a mere 900 pounds.
One loaded with creature comforts and using a Rover inline 4
is generally about 1,200 pounds curb weight. I'm guessing
from this the glider weight is about 600 pounds. I know the
frontal area is very small, given the height of 39 inches
with top on and width of 60 inches, about 13.5 square feet,
estimate achieved by comparing width * height vs. actual
frontal area of cars like MG Midgets and Triumph Spitfires.
Considering the car looks very sleek and long, with a
somewhat rounded front end(Le Mans front model), smooth skin
surface, and somewhat tapered rear end, the drag coefficient
with a top on is probably around .35-.38, the guess is made
given that the Lotus Elise achieves an estimated Cd of .36
according tomany reliable sources. The price for an entire
kit including all ICE parts is $11,000 in the US, or in
Britain, can be completed for ~6,000 pounds. Minus any ICE
components but including tranny, about $7,000 here.
This concept entails using a 336V pack of Evercel M50-12-7
batteries, rated at 40 ah and 12V, each weighing in at 20.5
pounds, costing $193.00. They could probably handle short
draws of 500 amps as Wayland has stated to me in emails. The
voltage sag at a 500 amp draw would probably lower the 336
volts to around 180 volts. But that's a nice, solid, 120
horse, even with the awful sag. With 28 batteries, the pack
voltage would be 336 V, pack weight 574 pounds, and pack
cost $5,400.
The motor? an ADC9 probably couldn't handle 336V, and a
Metric Mind AC drive would be nice, but that's about $10k
for it and the inverter/ cooler for what I have in mind,
although that would perform VERY nicely with such a flat
torque curve. Thus a WarP9 would be ideal, it's made to
handle that voltage, and would save me $300 over the ADC9,
as it's only $1,500. 150 pounds weight.
Controller? With NiZn, a Godzilla would toast it. I do need
something that can handle a high voltage though. DCP Raptor
600 would be ideal, up to 348V and costs $2,000, saving me
$3,000 on the Zilla. 18 pounds weight.
The adaptor plate/ motor mount will cost around $1,000 to
custom fab, but I may be able to use the machine shop at my
University for this.
Charger? A PFC50 would be very nice, full charge in about an
hour. $3,000. 20 pounds weight.
Add about $5,000 for any needed parts, like contactors,
fuses, wires, battery boxes, hard top, ceramic heater,
anmeter, ect, and add 500 pounds misc. weight.
Results? You have a Cd * Fa of 4.8-4.9, curb weight of
1,800-1,900 pounds, 13.44 kWh onboard energy, and ~90 kW
power with voltage sag counted. Using low rolling loss
tires, this would result in 80-100 mile range(Perhaps 120
range if driven very carefully at about 50), 0-60 ~6.6-7.0,
140+ MPH top speed, and a $25,000 price tag to make. It
would be well capable of smoking tires. Power to weight
ratio would be about .065, on par with Mitsubishi 3000GTs
and Subaru WRXs. Given such a low weight and even lower than
normal center of gravity with the batteries anchoring the
car to the ground, easily .90 on a skidpad with low rollers.
Some things to keep in mind. The Cd times frontal area would
be similar to a Honda Insight. 13.5 feet square * .36 Cd vs
18 feet square * .25 Cd is very close. Wayland's Insight
proposal would weigh in at 1900-2000 pounds. This concept
Wayland had is estimated to accelerate and top out like this
idea, with 0-60 in high 6 low 7 range, 150+ top speed, and
have 100 range, 130 with *very* careful driving.
This idea I have adds up to an 1800 pound car that costs
about $25,000 to build, does 0-60 6.6-7.0, tops 140, has
heating, seats two, 70-100 mile range, cold weather
operation, and hour charge time.
I have yet to work out the exact calculations yet, but this
looks very promising. There are a few caveats. The main one
is if I could fit 28 Evercell small size batteries into such
a tiny car like the Fury. I'd have little or no storage
space.
Wayland has advised against using kits due to stylistic
purposes, and I got to thinking about a lot of the VW Bug
kits, and at first considered it a good idea. But the GT40
and Ferrari ripoffs I had in mind would earn nothing but
laughs, even though those kits were fairly light, at
1,400-1,600 pounds, but then again, John's Datsun 1200 came
in at 1,500 with all ICE parts in stock. Although the Datsun
is a great car, I really don't like the style and would
rather have a two seat roadster. Four seats is sort of a
turn off right now. The Fury doesn't look too bad, much like
a cross between a Jaguar D-Type, Lotus 23, Porsche Spyder,
and Maserati Birdcage. It certainly doesn't have the bad
sci-fi movie sort of tacky aspect to its look that a Piontek
Sportek has. It as a gas chugger alone draws lots of good
attention I hear, but showing people batteries and a series
DC in place would really catch them off guard!
Photos of what I am eyeing can be found at:
http://www.freewebs.com/mega-r1/fury.jpg
http://www.freewebz.com/mega-r1/lemans.jpg
http://www.freewebz.com/mega-r1/kcws.jpg
If I were to build this, I'd want a black top, British
Racing Green paint color, and a white racing stripe down the
middle of the car, exactly like the yellow stripe on the
blue car photographed. Add in a pretty silver-colored roll
bar. I'd name this one "Greenpeace" and use it as both
commuter and something to play with at the nearby track(Or
embarass the local ricers with). If it uses AGM, it would
gain a lot of notoriety in my area for its hotroddery, for
certain. For the sake of EVs, that would certainly be a BIG
plus.
Think the NiZn idea would be possible? Any critiscisms or
suggestions? With 216+ volts of Optimas or Excides and a
Zilla instead of NiZn and a DCP, I can almost guaruntee this
thing would do 0-60 in under 5 with 40-50 mile range, but
I'm not so sure about my guesses on the NiZn.
I know what I am going to do soon though, work out all the
calculations I can, even though numbers on the batteries I'm
looking at aren't very specific as far as internal
resistance and max current draw are concerned, nor do I yet
have specifics on the car�s available final drive and
transmission options. I want 0-60 to be under 7.5, and if
the NiZn can't do it, then I will probably go with some AGM
under there. I already have a few grand stashed away now
from never spending anything and I imagine I could stash up
$25,000 in 2 years(Or less), considering I'm still living
with parents(18 years old). I will probably try to convert a
Toyota Paseo(Very light, would allow good accel with cheap
controller as Edward Ang can attest to) as a starter vehicle
with a 216V pack or perhaps build a simple electric bike,
each of which would cost $7,000 and $1,200 respectively.
The Toyota would weigh in around 2,200, have a 35 mile
range(Exactly enough get me to and from school each day with
70% DoD, which is a 9.8 mile commute using side streets to
Univerity to avoid rush hour and 15 miles home on highway to
show EV off), and accelerate from 0-60 in 9 seconds, top 90
MPH. The bike would really be a bit useless, but a very
inexpensive learning experience for some hands on work,
which is very necessary before attempting an expensive, high
performance, and potentially dangerous sports car.
So, suggestions? Critiscisms? Advice?
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