EV Digest 3341
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) OFA S-10 EVs on auction
by Nick Aronoff <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo? (was Re: Fisher Fury EV Concept)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: MSN EV story
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Flywheel balancing advice needed
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: how small is too small?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Flywheel balancing advice needed
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by "Diana Trevino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Oxygen and oil
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Oxygen and oil
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Vacuum bagging vacuum
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
I know you like to boil water, but I'm wondering
if anybody has written up a description of their dyno
loads.
I need about 100 milliohms and 1-2 kwatts.
Maybe somebody has one they want to get rid of.
We used a resistor at GE that was stamped metal plates
stacked up 3 foot high with a plate every
2.5 inches. Each plate was 5 inches wide by 2.5 foot.
We could make these glow orange with
a 600Amp, 48V load.
I sure would like to find something like that.
Rod
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > Rich,
> > I use the TMS320LF2402 DSP.
> > The front runner production DSP's are the 28xx
> family,
> > however their working on faster one's.
> > In my 'opinion' I would use the Motorola 56F803
> DSP
> > (I think they now call it a 'Hybrid'
> Microcontroller,
> > since they have faster DSP's for motor control).
> > Motorola app notes, software, support are all
> easier
> > to work with than TI stuff. I would strongly
> > recommend going with Mot product.
> > I'm using center triggered standard trapazoidal
> PWM.
> > I'm also using hall sensors since the SW is orders
> > of magnetude easier and you don't have to tweak
> the
> > parameters for each motor (and operating
> temperature)
> > I got sensorless working 3 years ago, but came to
> the
> > conclusion it's not worth the trouble for traction
> > applications. The best of both worlds is to use
> > hall sensors for starting the motor then switching
> > over to sensorless once the BEMF is strong enough.
> > While the motor is running you can use the hall
> > signals as a sanity check to verify your zero
> > crossings.
> > The beauty of sensorless is using the best
> possible
> > commutation for maximum efficiency (kind of like
> > Denise Beruby's moveable brush assembly).
> >
> > Rich, can you post pictures of your dyno?
> > If I was still at Baldor I would have access
> > to the 500HP CONTINUOUS dyno.
> >
> > Rod
> >
> 500 Hp continuous DROOOOOl!!!!
> Man that would be fun to play with.
>
> My little dyno is a 8000 rpm aircraft alternator.
> Just like the unit in
> Alan Cocconni's Range cart. The bigger dyno is a 8
> incher XP-1263
> shafted to a 9" stocker set of advanced DC motors.
> The MONSTER dyno is still in Phoenix AZ in David
> Chapman's care until I
> get a 1 ton truck back down into the Deserts of the
> SW.
> We could taken it back from Vegas, but Rod just had
> to bring a old Hot
> tub up from Jerome. And David Calley didn't have the
> truck or the time
> to Haul it up for me.
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have pulled longer, but slower hills with no problem. It's all kinda
blurred, but as I recall my initial T-Rex-600 would go into thermal
cut-back way too easily on a hot August day. Then upped it to a
T-Rex-1000 and it did great, only went into thermal cutback when
carrying a 900 pound elec-track in back and pulling a long long hill (Rt
20? into Worcester). Then dropped the pack voltage and went to the
Raptor 1200. Since then may have had it briefly in thermal cutback once
in summer heat. Maybe. And that was with hauling sand, gravel and
everything else last spring.
The fact that it broke just *after* the hill climb still has me thinking
something else was amiss besides simple overload. I'm not 100% sure, but
I think I did the big climb, let off the 'gas', then goosed it just a
tiny bit to go off the exit and still had a little power then.
bobrice wrote:
Hi Jim an' All;
Sorry to hear of the demise of yur Raptor, I hava couple, have often
been shuttling them back an forth to Alltrax/DCP for repairs. Now I still
have the origional Smoke still inside. it has been stupid -fix- in -one- day
stuff for me. Like a Cap in the charging circuit, so it will pull in the 12
volt contactor, gunched pot on the box, from careless battery handling and
the old getting it wet. They sure don't like even the HINT of water, was
thinking of bringing it inside the car, in a dry corner, as it doesn't get
hot, for me. This is what amazis me, in the hottest weather it runs cool,
stop an; go traffic, whatever. I think I can count on one hand when the fan
has run in anger,ie towing, stuff like that.I hava hill like you describe,
known as Chatfield Hollow Hill on RT 80 in Killingworth, it is downshift in
gas car work, too. I can blaze up it in 4thor 5th@ 500 amps and maintain a
respectable 50-55MPH with everybody else, but bayttery sag is down to about
90 volts, after running the first 25 miles from New Haven to get there, so
the cells are tired. I don't do this EVeryday. I feel that I'm breaking the
back of the batteries, so I often get a good roll down the other side and
turn off about half way up, cut through a rez area, where I can go slow, 25
and look like a respectable citizen, in first [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps. In super
economy mode I have done all this run @ 100 amps or less, like the batteries
are pretty dead<g>! This is where I find my "Trojan Teakettles" Batteries
who hava reversed cell!Smoking and gassing!
Jim, your Big Hill is longer than mine, I can do mine in about a
[EMAIL PROTECTED] or so. That's scarry that I was pushing the Raptor that close to
death, and not knowing that!A question for you controller garus; When you're
in flat out or full on mode, isnt the controller pretty much in "Bypass"
mode or out of the circiut, for want of a better term? Jim's Raptor would go
on cranking out those amps all day, it was when he shut off at the top of
the hill, that killed it.Other circuit problems, but he was running 132
volts, closer to their 150 volt max, but his CURRENT draw would be less than
if I were chasing him up the hill in the Rabbit. Ohm's law in hiz favor a
bit? My thoughts, I was harder on my Raptur towing dead ICE wrecks uphill in
my yard, than flying up my Hill, because I was really using the controller's
electronics, power circuits for GRUNT to pull stuff at low speed , in first
gear. Hell I have even used the EV to pull stumps! Albiet small ones, but
the smooth power is sure nice!Reverse is the lowest gear, for stumps and
moving busses!
Maybe DCP haz changed it's policy on fixing them, in the last few weeks?
Doesn't wanna get involved with ground up rebuilds, on old units? Minor
fixes OK, though? I hope, like whothehell ELSE would or can fix them? Ya
don't just schleppe it down to your local electronix guy. Well you don't do
that with anything else for that matter. Nobody fixes VCR's and TV's today.
Junk it, get a new one! A Chang Hong TV a Broksonic VCR, cheaper than
walking in the door of a TV shop to even LOOK at yur dead one!I hope it
isn't thew same with controllers.
Seeya
Bob
--
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anybody know anything about the two S-10s listed on the California
Office of Fleet Administration auction site?
http://www.ofa.dgs.ca.gov/Auction/default.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> My two questions would be how the AC motor connects, but that seems to
> have been thoroughly discussed, and how to connect the DC motor. On
> paper it is fine, but this gets back to the problem of no large sep-ex
> controllers being made.
Keep in mind that the controller for a shunt generator is pretty simple.
It can be as simple as a field rheostat. Every car and truck has a
'voltage regulator' which is the field control circuit for a shunt
generator to charge a battery.
> The largest I know of is 96 volt/500amp or 48KW peak. Add this to
> the 20ish KW from the AC drive for 70 KW peak total, which doesn't
> do what I'm looking to do. Or maybe pair with a larger AC drive.
> Although 75 KW is probably good for a car. I just need to get over my
> affliction with monster truck syndrome. Maybe if I start with one of
> those Subaru baja psuedo-truck deals.
What I was thinking of is using the AC and DC motors as your high-power
battery charger. You're going to be limited by how much AC power you can
get -- not by the capabilities of the AC and DC motors!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in - Leonard Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Post Glover will sell resistor banks. They made the S-10 electric
conditioning banks...
I prefer to recirculate power in the dyno whenever possible.
Seth
On Feb 8, 2004, at 3:43 PM, Rod Hower wrote:
Rich,
I know you like to boil water, but I'm wondering
if anybody has written up a description of their dyno
loads.
I need about 100 milliohms and 1-2 kwatts.
Maybe somebody has one they want to get rid of.
We used a resistor at GE that was stamped metal plates
stacked up 3 foot high with a plate every
2.5 inches. Each plate was 5 inches wide by 2.5 foot.
We could make these glow orange with
a 600Amp, 48V load.
I sure would like to find something like that.
Rod
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rod Hower wrote:
Rich,
I use the TMS320LF2402 DSP.
The front runner production DSP's are the 28xx
family,
however their working on faster one's.
In my 'opinion' I would use the Motorola 56F803
DSP
(I think they now call it a 'Hybrid'
Microcontroller,
since they have faster DSP's for motor control).
Motorola app notes, software, support are all
easier
to work with than TI stuff. I would strongly
recommend going with Mot product.
I'm using center triggered standard trapazoidal
PWM.
I'm also using hall sensors since the SW is orders
of magnetude easier and you don't have to tweak
the
parameters for each motor (and operating
temperature)
I got sensorless working 3 years ago, but came to
the
conclusion it's not worth the trouble for traction
applications. The best of both worlds is to use
hall sensors for starting the motor then switching
over to sensorless once the BEMF is strong enough.
While the motor is running you can use the hall
signals as a sanity check to verify your zero
crossings.
The beauty of sensorless is using the best
possible
commutation for maximum efficiency (kind of like
Denise Beruby's moveable brush assembly).
Rich, can you post pictures of your dyno?
If I was still at Baldor I would have access
to the 500HP CONTINUOUS dyno.
Rod
500 Hp continuous DROOOOOl!!!!
Man that would be fun to play with.
My little dyno is a 8000 rpm aircraft alternator.
Just like the unit in
Alan Cocconni's Range cart. The bigger dyno is a 8
incher XP-1263
shafted to a 9" stocker set of advanced DC motors.
The MONSTER dyno is still in Phoenix AZ in David
Chapman's care until I
get a 1 ton truck back down into the Deserts of the
SW.
We could taken it back from Vegas, but Rod just had
to bring a old Hot
tub up from Jerome. And David Calley didn't have the
truck or the time
to Haul it up for me.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Re: MSN EV story
The web page layout and pics were nice, but ...
IMHO: the piece was foremost ICE'y and fuelish.
The small nEV portion was at the end and as usual MSN writers
are focused on finding something wrong with them.
-
-
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4039831/
[...]
E-cars
My next stop was 87 miles north to Bellingham, Wash., the
closest
dealer of DaimlerChrysler's GEM cars -- the only electric
vehicles sold by a major manufacturer. Driving into Bellingham
Chrysler, I was surprised to find the GEM model at the truck
showroom -- flanked by RAM pickups that weighed five times more.
Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com
A fully enclosed GEM four-seater
----------------------------------------------------------------
It did have company, however: two peers made by a Canadian
company, Dynasty Motorcar Corp. Like the GEMs, which run from
$10,000 to $15,000, the $14,000 ITs are easy to operate and
maintain. No gas stations, oil changes or engine issues -- just
plug into a regular power outlet, charge for six hours or so and
then drive.
"There's really not anything to them," says salesman Randy
Tobkin. "It's a step above a flashlight electronically."
Tobkin's pitch is simple and tempting: "You're paying a cent a
mile to drive these things."
But because they're made primarily for special areas like
campuses and gated communities, these vehicles have a big
drawback for city driving: They're designed to top out at around
25 mph and during a test drive on a 35 mph street I felt
uncomfortable, with cars lined up behind me.
On top of that, turning was stiff, the bodies are thin and
basics
like a radio are lacking. Airbags? Forget it. Then there's the
issue of batteries -- they have to be replaced every few years
at
a cost of $600 or so.
Still, if I ever retire to a sleepy beach town, I'll look for
one
of these babies.
E-scooters Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com
The eGo, at left, and the Sol Gato
--------------------------------------------------------------
The search for electric scooters -- I'm talking ones with seats
-- led me to Seattle dealer Mohan Magdumand to Mike
Kristofferson, owner of MotorManMike, a sales and repair shop in
Seattle's eclectic Fremont neighborhood.
Magdum, always looking for a cheaper, better e-scooter to
distribute, showed off two favorites:
The $2,500 Sol Gato. Made by Sun Cat Motor Company, it has a
30-mile range and 30 mph top speed. The $999 eGo. Made by EGO
Vehicles, it has a 25-mile range and reaches 23 mph.
Kristofferson added two more to the mix:
The $2,800 Equinox. Made by Electric Vehicle Technologies, its
range is 45 miles and top speed 30 mph. The $2,495 Voloci.
Assembled by the owner of NYCEWheels, its range is 20 miles and
top speed 30 mph. Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com The Equinox, left,
and Voloci e-scooters
----------------------------------------------------------------
The Sol Gato and Equinox, with their wider bodies, felt much
more
comfortable alongside car traffic than the smaller eGo or
Voloci.
The Equinox's bigger motor means it can climb hills better, but
the Sol Gato has room for two riders, whereas the Equinox has
just one seat. The Voloci stands out for its high-tech mountain
bike look and for being much lighter than competitors. The eGo,
for its part, was tempting given that it costs less than half of
the others. And it's got some neat accessories, like a clip-on
cargo trailer.
The beauty of the e-scooters is the magic-carpet feel of riding
in traffic but making no noise. The biggest downside, as with
any
electric vehicle, are the batteries. These can be recycled but
typically need to be replaced every two years or so at $500 a
pop.
E-Bikes
Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com
The LashOut e-bike
---------------------------------------------------------------
Next door to MotorManMike is Electric Bikes Northwest, which
lays
claim to being the biggest U.S. retailer of electric bikes. The
motto here is "Augmenting, not replacing, human power" -- as in
getting some exercise while moving.
Eric Sundin, who runs the store, had me test ride the two basic
types of e-bikes:
Throttle, where the electric motor kicks in via a handlebar
knob.
I tried the $795 LashOut, with a 20-mile range and 18 mph top
speed. It was a blast to ride, quickly accelerating when I
needed
to get a quick start. With the batteries off, it even looked
like
a regular mountain bike. Pedal-activated, where the motor kicks
in as one pedals. I tried the $1,195 Lite by Giant Bicycle
Company, a major manufacturer. The bike has a 27-mile range and
top speed of 17 mph, but I missed the throttle feel of being
able
to get a quick burst on demand. Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com The
Lite e-bike
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sundin points out that converting an existing bike is also an
option. Kits cost around $400, with another $60 or so if a bike
shop installs it.
A key distinction with standard bikes is that batteries do make
e-bikes very heavy at 60 or more pounds. And replacing batteries
every few years costs $90 for standard and $200 for nickle-metal
hydride batteries. Some e-bikes do let you remove the battery
and
just pedal around -- a neat option.
A big issue with going electric in Washington is that the state
gets most of its electricity from dams -- and those are bad for
salmon trying to find their way past turbines and walls.
Realizing this, Electric Bikes Northwest teamed up with a
Seattle
solar roofing company, Puget Sound Solar, to showcase a
solar-powered charger. The shop's system cost $1,000, but Puget
Sound Solar says it can make a $500 system for individuals --
not
exactly cheap, but it's certainly tempting.
Smaller, less-expensive systems could be made for individual
bikes, Sundin says, but their range would be limited. He sees
more of a future in employers buying chargers for use by
employees.
[...]
Miguel Llanos / MSNBC.com
[...]
� 2004 MSNBC Interactive
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Hoskinson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> My question is this: How much do I have to take apart to get it
> balanced? Would they be able to do it with the flywheel and
> clutch on the motor?
I suspect that they can do it with both the flywheel and clutch
installed, but I'm not so sure that the clutch (really the pressure
plate, not the disc) needs to be balanced.
See, when you replace a clutch on an ICE vehicle, you remove the
original pressure plate and disc and install a new one, but never have I
heard of anyone pulling their flywheel and having it and the new clutch
assembly re-balanced! (Same thing with automatic transmissions; torque
converters (which bolt to the flex plate (=flywheel) in the same way
that a clutch does) get swapped without rebalancing of the assembly.)
This suggests to me that the flywheel and pressure plate/clutch are
balanced independantly.
The usual advice is to mark the alignment of the pressure plate and
flywheel before disassembling them; if they were previously balanced,
they will still be balanced when you bolt them back up in the same
alignment. (So if you reused the D's original clutch and flywheel and
marked them prior to disassembly from the ICE, then in theory they are
should still be balanced on the Kostov.)
Of course, it is entirely possible that the 'balancing' required by an
EV conversion is not actually due to the motor, clutch or flywheel being
out of balance, but rather the adapter being off: i.e. the adapter is
holding the flywheel (and everything mounted to it) slightly off the
motor shaft axis so that it wobbles up and down (viewed from the end) as
it rotates, and/or the face of the adapter is not perfectly
perpendicular to the motor mounting face, so that the edge of the
flywheel moves fore and aft slightly as it rotates.
Seems to me that the 'proper' solution would be to first ensure that the
adapter is properly and securely installed on the motor shaft, and then
have the runout of the adapter checked and reduced to an acceptable
level if necessary. You can check the runout yourself if you have a
dial indicator that you can mount to the adapter plate and then measure
the radial runout at the edge of the flywheel as you rotate the motor
shaft by hand, and then measure the fore/aft runout at the edge of the
flywheel as you rotate the shaft by hand. You could repeat the
measurements with just the adapter installed, and even check the radial
runout of the bare motor shaft too if you want to positively identify
the source(s) of any runout.
> The clutch plate is (presumably) centered now, since it would
> have been centered on the splined shaft of the transmission, but
> it won't be if I take it apart.
Usually you would center the clutch disc with an alignment tool before
cinching down all of the pressure plate bolts, otherwise it can be
nearly impossible to get the input shaft to go through the splined hub
of the disc and into the pilot bearing. (You do have a pilot bearing in
your flywheel or adapter, don't you? If not, you might get some
imbalance due to the input shaft and clutch disc not being perfectly
centered when you engage the clutch.)
> I'm wondering if I should take the clutch apart anyway, so I can make
> sure that there are no loose or broken bolts connecting the flywheel
> to the taperlock hub.
If you truly suspect that there is a possibility of something being awry
with the adapter/motor or flywheel/adapter connections, then definitely
inspect this before having anything balanced or trued. I would mark the
alignment of the pressure plate and flywheel and flywheel and adapter,
and adpater to motor (unless there is a keyway to enforce alignment
here) prior to disassembly so that you can reassemble it all with
reasonable confidence that it is in the same state of [im]balance as
before.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
>
> Rich,
> I know you like to boil water, but I'm wondering
> if anybody has written up a description of their dyno
> loads.
> I need about 100 milliohms and 1-2 kwatts.
> Maybe somebody has one they want to get rid of.
> We used a resistor at GE that was stamped metal plates
> stacked up 3 foot high with a plate every
> 2.5 inches. Each plate was 5 inches wide by 2.5 foot.
> We could make these glow orange with
> a 600Amp, 48V load.
> I sure would like to find something like that.
> Rod
>
Rich Furniss has some nice 4 inch wound Nichrome loads from C&H surplus,
I use 240 volt 4500 watt hot water heater elements in paralel, and then
I can boost this to 400 volts if I need to.
The higher voltage is really nice for moving watts.
On the little dyno I rectify then jam it into a 1.6 ohm power resistor
that can take 6Kw at 24 volts, air cooled. And a LOT more in a water
bucket.
Of course doing some Pump back efforts would be nice since you can drop
the losses to just your system looses. With that Sepex motor, what's the
output voltage??? if it can be pushed up to your DC rail going into the
inverter, then you can just recycle it. The trick for the Big Dyno will
be to push the load motor's output back into the battery pack.
This way I can get some hang time even with SVR-14s. Blowing off 10s of
Kw gets foolish pretty fast.
Ok it's getting steamy in here with a 5Kw PFC20 bucker doing final power
runs... it screws up the paper feed in my old HP4 laser jet.
Gotta go.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> I have pulled longer, but slower hills with no problem. It's all kinda
> blurred, but as I recall my initial T-Rex-600 would go into thermal
> cut-back way too easily on a hot August day. Then upped it to a
> T-Rex-1000 and it did great, only went into thermal cutback when
> carrying a 900 pound elec-track in back and pulling a long long hill (Rt
> 20? into Worcester). Then dropped the pack voltage and went to the
> Raptor 1200. Since then may have had it briefly in thermal cutback once
> in summer heat. Maybe. And that was with hauling sand, gravel and
> everything else last spring.
>
> The fact that it broke just *after* the hill climb still has me thinking
> something else was amiss besides simple overload. I'm not 100% sure, but
> I think I did the big climb, let off the 'gas', then goosed it just a
> tiny bit to go off the exit and still had a little power then.
>
As I recall Damon tracked this kinda fail to a Welded Diode, not a blow
one. You don't know when it actually welds, but you do when you lift
off the go pedal. Because then it shorts out the motor loop and the
whole thing takes off.
This is protected by a current control loop that looks at the motor
loope current seprate from the battery loop. Otmar has this well
designed. Damon did not. If you get too many amps flowing, well sooner
or later things go bang.
I of course have never had this kind of fails in any of my DCP units.
But I know there have been lots of them. This is what killed the
T-Rexes. The Raptors didn't have this happen very often. They are
getting pretty old out there, and the stresses add up with time. A short
warrentee period and a easy rebuild path makes a lot of sense in this
business.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sure,when it gets to small to fit in :-)
They have human powered vehicles that go about 60 miles in one hour, I
think they are trying to push that up to 70 miles.
FWIW the flying start record for maximum speed is over 80 miles per
hour.
These are bicycles of course and not wouldn't really be suitable as EVs
because they don't handle cross winds very well. Make a three wheeled
version and you could have a tiny EV that went 60+ mph.
On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 10:30, JD & Heather wrote:
> I noticed there is a Fiat 600 in the album that looks like a really
> neat and clean conversion. A Fiat 500 looks to be even smaller and I'd
> like to have one someday. Is there a point where a car is too small to
> get decent speed out of, say 50 to 60 mph?
>
> Thanks,
> John David
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> See, when you replace a clutch on an ICE vehicle, you remove the
> original pressure plate and disc and install a new one, but never have I
> heard of anyone pulling their flywheel and having it and the new clutch
> assembly re-balanced!
Well now you have. When I replaced the clutch on my 914 I had the
flywheel and pressure plate balanced.
To be fair I didn't bother when I did the same thing on the Escort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We at North Electric we used salt water load boxes. With not very big copper
plates one could get over 500 amps load at 48 volts. Cheap way to make a
load box.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: BLDC dyno and control and DSP selection and dyno load
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > Rich,
> > I know you like to boil water, but I'm wondering
> > if anybody has written up a description of their dyno
> > loads.
> > I need about 100 milliohms and 1-2 kwatts.
> > Maybe somebody has one they want to get rid of.
> > We used a resistor at GE that was stamped metal plates
> > stacked up 3 foot high with a plate every
> > 2.5 inches. Each plate was 5 inches wide by 2.5 foot.
> > We could make these glow orange with
> > a 600Amp, 48V load.
> > I sure would like to find something like that.
> > Rod
> >
> Rich Furniss has some nice 4 inch wound Nichrome loads from C&H surplus,
> I use 240 volt 4500 watt hot water heater elements in paralel, and then
> I can boost this to 400 volts if I need to.
>
> The higher voltage is really nice for moving watts.
>
> On the little dyno I rectify then jam it into a 1.6 ohm power resistor
> that can take 6Kw at 24 volts, air cooled. And a LOT more in a water
> bucket.
>
> Of course doing some Pump back efforts would be nice since you can drop
> the losses to just your system looses. With that Sepex motor, what's the
> output voltage??? if it can be pushed up to your DC rail going into the
> inverter, then you can just recycle it. The trick for the Big Dyno will
> be to push the load motor's output back into the battery pack.
> This way I can get some hang time even with SVR-14s. Blowing off 10s of
> Kw gets foolish pretty fast.
> Ok it's getting steamy in here with a 5Kw PFC20 bucker doing final power
> runs... it screws up the paper feed in my old HP4 laser jet.
>
> Gotta go.
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Jim and everybody,
What is the weight of you EV and overall gear ratio's? I have a EV that
weighs about 7000 lbs fully loaded. It has a 19:1 ratio in first, 13:1
ratio in second and 5.57 in third.
It uses the old antique CableForm MK 10 controller which is rated for 950
amps max. The battery ampere is current limit to 400 amps and motor amps is
limit to 800 amps which was stall tested back at CableForm for
remanufacturing.
I made a run up a long 1 mile 10 percent grade hill, pulling only 360
battery amps at a start run up speed of 60 mph and finish at top of hill at
45 mph which was limit by the size of my batteries and voltage drop.
I been looking for a new controller to replace this unit which will go back
into my original EV which will be kept in original condition.
A Curtis unit does not go above 144 volts. Curtis suggest to drop my
battery pack from 180 volts to 156 volts to run my 165 volt motor, but the
600 amp rating would not work.
I also look at Raptor 1200 (which they WEB Site is still up after two years
out of production)
I now will go for a T-Rex 1000 unit because of my 20:1 to 5.57:1 ratios. If
I can get weight and gear data from others who use a T-Rex 1000, so I can
run the numbers to see if I can use that unit.
In the power section in Units and Conversion Factors in a Standard Handbook
for Electrical Engineers:
1.356 watts = 1 foot-pound per second = 60 RPM
Using a inch-pound and foot-pound torque wrench with a RPM meter that reads
the rpm by a roller against the motor shaft, My torque is 8.57 ftlbs to
move the 7000 lbs of weight with a ratio of 20:1 ratio.
The torque on a 3000 lb EV with a 9:1 is about the same.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: death of a DCP raptor, ?'s an' comments
> I have pulled longer, but slower hills with no problem. It's all kinda
> blurred, but as I recall my initial T-Rex-600 would go into thermal
> cut-back way too easily on a hot August day. Then upped it to a
> T-Rex-1000 and it did great, only went into thermal cutback when
> carrying a 900 pound elec-track in back and pulling a long long hill (Rt
> 20? into Worcester). Then dropped the pack voltage and went to the
> Raptor 1200. Since then may have had it briefly in thermal cutback once
> in summer heat. Maybe. And that was with hauling sand, gravel and
> everything else last spring.
>
> The fact that it broke just *after* the hill climb still has me thinking
> something else was amiss besides simple overload. I'm not 100% sure, but
> I think I did the big climb, let off the 'gas', then goosed it just a
> tiny bit to go off the exit and still had a little power then.
>
>
> bobrice wrote:
> > Hi Jim an' All;
> >
> > Sorry to hear of the demise of yur Raptor, I hava couple, have often
> > been shuttling them back an forth to Alltrax/DCP for repairs. Now I
> > still
> > have the origional Smoke still inside. it has been stupid -fix- in -one-
> > day
> > stuff for me. Like a Cap in the charging circuit, so it will pull in the
> > 12
> > volt contactor, gunched pot on the box, from careless battery handling
> > and
> > the old getting it wet. They sure don't like even the HINT of water, was
> > thinking of bringing it inside the car, in a dry corner, as it doesn't
> > get
> > hot, for me. This is what amazis me, in the hottest weather it runs
> > cool,
> > stop an; go traffic, whatever. I think I can count on one hand when the
> > fan
> > has run in anger,ie towing, stuff like that.I hava hill like you
> > describe,
> > known as Chatfield Hollow Hill on RT 80 in Killingworth, it is downshift
> > in
> > gas car work, too. I can blaze up it in 4thor 5th@ 500 amps and maintain
> > a
> > respectable 50-55MPH with everybody else, but bayttery sag is down to
> > about
> > 90 volts, after running the first 25 miles from New Haven to get there,
> > so
> > the cells are tired. I don't do this EVeryday. I feel that I'm breaking
> > the
> > back of the batteries, so I often get a good roll down the other side
> > and
> > turn off about half way up, cut through a rez area, where I can go slow,
> > 25
> > and look like a respectable citizen, in first [EMAIL PROTECTED] amps. In
> > super
> > economy mode I have done all this run @ 100 amps or less, like the
> > batteries
> > are pretty dead<g>! This is where I find my "Trojan Teakettles"
> > Batteries
> > who hava reversed cell!Smoking and gassing!
> >
> > Jim, your Big Hill is longer than mine, I can do mine in about a
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so. That's scarry that I was pushing the Raptor that close
> > to
> > death, and not knowing that!A question for you controller garus; When
> > you're
> > in flat out or full on mode, isnt the controller pretty much in "Bypass"
> > mode or out of the circiut, for want of a better term? Jim's Raptor
> > would go
> > on cranking out those amps all day, it was when he shut off at the top
> > of
> > the hill, that killed it.Other circuit problems, but he was running 132
> > volts, closer to their 150 volt max, but his CURRENT draw would be less
> > than
> > if I were chasing him up the hill in the Rabbit. Ohm's law in hiz favor
> > a
> > bit? My thoughts, I was harder on my Raptur towing dead ICE wrecks
> > uphill in
> > my yard, than flying up my Hill, because I was really using the
> > controller's
> > electronics, power circuits for GRUNT to pull stuff at low speed , in
> > first
> > gear. Hell I have even used the EV to pull stumps! Albiet small ones,
> > but
> > the smooth power is sure nice!Reverse is the lowest gear, for stumps and
> > moving busses!
> >
> > Maybe DCP haz changed it's policy on fixing them, in the last few
> > weeks?
> > Doesn't wanna get involved with ground up rebuilds, on old units? Minor
> > fixes OK, though? I hope, like whothehell ELSE would or can fix them? Ya
> > don't just schleppe it down to your local electronix guy. Well you don't
> > do
> > that with anything else for that matter. Nobody fixes VCR's and TV's
> > today.
> > Junk it, get a new one! A Chang Hong TV a Broksonic VCR, cheaper than
> > walking in the door of a TV shop to even LOOK at yur dead one!I hope it
> > isn't thew same with controllers.
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
> >
>
>
> --
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A pile of oily rags can spontaneousely combust. I saw a haystack stat to
glow the go up in flames too. tom
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 06, 2004 7:19 PM
Subject: Oxygen and oil
> At 05:24 PM 6/02/04 +1300, Garry Stanley wrote:
> >Hi Lee,
> >
> >I am 100% sure, the reason I know is it says on the oxy gauge of every
> >welding set "DO NOT OIL" and when I enquired why something that is
generally
> >sealed has such a warning on it I was told that the oil will ignite in
the
> >presence of pure oxy.
>
> OK, oil and oxygen when *Compressed* in a space WILL detonate - the diesel
> principle, but at low temperatures and relatively low pressures.
>
> Low flash-point flammables and the lower explosion limit of gasses are
more
> likely to ignite in the presence of elevated concentrations of oxygen or
> from much reduced energy ignition sources.
>
> Take extreme care when handling pure oxygen and other oxidising agents. I
> have a recolection that hydrogen and chlorine require as little as the
> energy of ONE PHOTON of light to detonate, but it could be chlorine and
> oxygen.
>
> Keep it safe
>
> James Massey
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Tom Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A pile of oily rags can spontaneousely combust. I
> saw a haystack stat to
> glow the go up in flames too. tom
Ahh.... and this is why I have time to work on my EV.
I had been doing some architectural metal work on an
8400 square foot remodel of a house in Hollywood for
the last 9 months. we were very near complete when the
painter had left a pile of oily rags in the garage....
I was talking to the forensics guys yesterday when he
shared the results with me. we originally thought it
was electrical but they found traces of the oil finish
in the ash where the fire began. so I'm making much
progress on the EMW bike till I can go back.
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> Hello Jim and everybody,
>
> What is the weight of you EV and overall gear ratio's? I have a EV that
> weighs about 7000 lbs fully loaded. It has a 19:1 ratio in first, 13:1
> ratio in second and 5.57 in third.
>
> It uses the old antique CableForm MK 10 controller which is rated for 950
> amps max. The battery ampere is current limit to 400 amps and motor amps is
> limit to 800 amps which was stall tested back at CableForm for
> remanufacturing.
>
> I made a run up a long 1 mile 10 percent grade hill, pulling only 360
> battery amps at a start run up speed of 60 mph and finish at top of hill at
> 45 mph which was limit by the size of my batteries and voltage drop.
>
> I been looking for a new controller to replace this unit which will go back
> into my original EV which will be kept in original condition.
>
> A Curtis unit does not go above 144 volts. Curtis suggest to drop my
> battery pack from 180 volts to 156 volts to run my 165 volt motor, but the
> 600 amp rating would not work.
>
> I also look at Raptor 1200 (which they WEB Site is still up after two years
> out of production)
>
> I now will go for a T-Rex 1000 unit because of my 20:1 to 5.57:1 ratios. If
> I can get weight and gear data from others who use a T-Rex 1000, so I can
> run the numbers to see if I can use that unit.
>
> In the power section in Units and Conversion Factors in a Standard Handbook
> for Electrical Engineers:
>
> 1.356 watts = 1 foot-pound per second = 60 RPM
>
> Using a inch-pound and foot-pound torque wrench with a RPM meter that reads
> the rpm by a roller against the motor shaft, My torque is 8.57 ftlbs to
> move the 7000 lbs of weight with a ratio of 20:1 ratio.
>
> The torque on a 3000 lb EV with a 9:1 is about the same.
>
> Roland
>
Roland.... a bunch of us have tried to get you to go with a Zilla 2K.
You don't seam to get the hint.
I helped design the Raptor and T-Rex, and built more than a few. When I
warn you away from a product that I had a hand in building, You better
take note!!!
The T-Rexs are even more fragil than the Raptors.
With your weight and voltages you need a liquid cooled controller. Or a
very light experienced hand on the throttles.
I could get years of service with 144 volts and a Curtis 1231, you just
use LOTS of gear changes and the biggest heatsink you can find. And you
have to Keep a eye on all your temps like a experimental Aircraft pilot
does.
7000 lbs and 180 volts and a heavy foot is going to put the hurt on
everything except a water cooled controller.
Note that the Zilla 2K and the Raptor can melt your motor a lot faster
than the controller will fail. I have the notes and the broken motor
parts!!
Damon has shut the Raptor Rex line down for two clear reasons first he
has a OEM account for little AXE MosFet based controllers. He ships in
the hundreds of unita a month, with very few returns. He doesn't have
the time for the on road EVs and the resultant support. And as time goes
on and the Aging of the in service units continues, and agressive design
is taking it's toll on longevity.
Less agressive designs have many more devices, and cost a few times
more to build.
Please don't try to use a T-Rex, you won't be happy for very long.
I still drive a Raptor just about every other day, and I horse it
around, and basicly beat the crap out of it. It's unit #22, Old and hand
buildt by Damon and Rich C and Dean T,and I. The units buildt in the old
Garage Days, are still my pride.
Oh yea it's not the torque that you need to know it's the sustained
Motor loop current to make that torque that matters in the life time of
the controller. And how fast you can blow the heat out of the power
stage heatsink in the Rex. Damon would KILL for the newest heatsink in
the PFC50s., and it would fit....well sort of. I used spare T-Rex
heatsinks on the first 10 PFC50s.
Get a Zilla!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
I don't have a battery pack in the Ametek lab.
100 milli ohms easily gives me 50 amps load current
with 4 amps in the field of the NEV sepex motor.
I put the 100 milli load directly across the armature.
The resistors I have are wimpy, so I'm looking for
a good load bank. I'll check out C&H surpluss, thanks
for the tip.
Rod
P.S. The extra heat from the load keeps the
lab toasty, otherwise its kind of cold!
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > Rich,
> > I know you like to boil water, but I'm wondering
> > if anybody has written up a description of their
> dyno
> > loads.
> > I need about 100 milliohms and 1-2 kwatts.
> > Maybe somebody has one they want to get rid of.
> > We used a resistor at GE that was stamped metal
> plates
> > stacked up 3 foot high with a plate every
> > 2.5 inches. Each plate was 5 inches wide by 2.5
> foot.
> > We could make these glow orange with
> > a 600Amp, 48V load.
> > I sure would like to find something like that.
> > Rod
> >
> Rich Furniss has some nice 4 inch wound Nichrome
> loads from C&H surplus,
> I use 240 volt 4500 watt hot water heater elements
> in paralel, and then
> I can boost this to 400 volts if I need to.
>
> The higher voltage is really nice for moving watts.
>
> On the little dyno I rectify then jam it into a 1.6
> ohm power resistor
> that can take 6Kw at 24 volts, air cooled. And a LOT
> more in a water
> bucket.
>
> Of course doing some Pump back efforts would be nice
> since you can drop
> the losses to just your system looses. With that
> Sepex motor, what's the
> output voltage??? if it can be pushed up to your DC
> rail going into the
> inverter, then you can just recycle it. The trick
> for the Big Dyno will
> be to push the load motor's output back into the
> battery pack.
> This way I can get some hang time even with SVR-14s.
> Blowing off 10s of
> Kw gets foolish pretty fast.
> Ok it's getting steamy in here with a 5Kw PFC20
> bucker doing final power
> runs... it screws up the paper feed in my old HP4
> laser jet.
>
> Gotta go.
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
