EV Digest 3346
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: ADC commutator bonding specs
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: ADC commutator bonding specs
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: death of a DCP raptor
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: nedra photos
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: motor terminals
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: the recent MSN article + Prius Stuff
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Did I Sparrow my Raptor?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) More T-rex-Godzilla Nonsense
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Prius NiMH Battery & New PbA replacements
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ampabout - new batts
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 3007
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo? (was Re: Fisher Fury EV Concept)
by "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Arcing, efficiency, and a two-by-four.
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: nedra photos
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Arcing, efficiency, and a two-by-four.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Did I Sparrow my Raptor?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The Dodge TEVan doesn't have your cooling setup, but
it does have center shaft cooling of the rotor.
This 9" sepex motor runs a 5,000lb vehicle
respectably.
The TEVan has a 'radiator' in the usual spot for
cooling the synthetic cooling oil.
Rod
--- Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How about actively cooling the comm bars? Drill a
> hole in the tail shaft,
> and some small holes out thru the comm bars. Use a
> rotary coupler on the
> tail shaft to shoot some liquid CO2 into it. The
> cold gas coming out thru
> the comm bars should cool them and the comm bar,
> brush interface. Keeping
> O2 out of that area may also be usefull.
>
> Andre' B.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 4:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > Most of the bars that came off the comm.during CEs
> armature failure did
> show
> > blue in copper surrounding the bonding
> material,they must have been very
> warm
> > at some point. D.Berube
>
> Nice data point Dennis!!
> Forensic electronics... finding the problems by
> looking at the
> pieces.
> Blue copper is REALLY hot copper!!
> Could this be from the Tig welding that was done in
> assembly?? Or only
> from high currents on the track??
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 04:39:47PM -0800, Rich Rudman wrote:
> They are trying, and they have the brains that tried the hardest to help
> the first timer around.
I hope they are able to make it work; I really enjoyed mine when it did.
I still think they need to at least make the belt field replaceable
though, in addition to the electrical issues.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> Ok I am seeing your lack of thought.... slight..but significant..
> The motors won't care about the 6Khz PWM it cares about the 60Hz or the
> rotational Hertz, NOT the base PWM.
It's rather simple Rich, before we get to eddy losses and laminations:
Find a 400 Hz aircraft transformer and plug it in 60 Hz
outlet with the same voltage. Let the smoke out of it, and
then reply to me with what do you think why it happened.
Back to motors.
Measure inductance of the stator of a Siemens motor. Few hundred uH,
that's what inverter's software shows. Let's say 200 uH.
It's impedance is 2pi*f*L. Well, at 60 Hz it's 6.28*60*200e-6=0.075
Ohm, negligible at 60 Hz.
Now, measure stator windings resistance. 7 mOhm...15 mOhm, depending
on the model. Now, apply 120V 60 Hz 3 phase to the 15 mOhm stator
windings.
How much current you get? You'll melt the copper before eddy currents
will warm up the rotor.
Your minibike motor gets warm because of saturated rotor
and *therefore* high eddy currents. And, it's saturated
because not enough impedance *if you apply rated voltage*.
But wait - whom do I talk to? 10-20 times of name plate ratings guy?
Sorry, then you saturate because limited flux of the iron compare
to the amps you push hopelessly overloading it. Minibike example
is good but does not qualify for an answer.
I'm discussing normal application within ratings.
You can't even get half of rated power of hi freq motor
at 60 Hz, let alone the chance to enjoy overloading it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:50 PM 2/9/2004 -0800, Alan Batie stated:
I hope they are able to make it work; I really enjoyed mine when it did.
I still think they need to at least make the belt field replaceable
though, in addition to the electrical issues.
Hey, the belt IS field replaceable! Just ask Tony about breaking his belt
at the SEVA meeting last year...
(Of course it took 4 guys, 2 tool boxes, and a lot of work, but we DID
replace it during the meeting. :-)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.Com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hate to say it, but what was the core issue behind the ADC motors? Were
they simply undersized, or was the lack of a transmission the key issue?
Chris
David Roden wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 at 1:15, Brad Waddell wrote:
Here is the web site for the new sparrow company - more EV's on the road!
http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.com/Sparrow%20Home%20Page.htm
At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose it
well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they had
in the earlier versions of the car.
I read the home page for Phoenix, though, and what I saw there doesn't give
me a whole lot of confidence for the future of this operation. Not sure I
can explain why, it's just a notion. Keep your fingers crossed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> > How about actively cooling the comm bars? Drill a hole in the tail
> > shaft, and some small holes out thru the comm bars. Use a rotary
> > coupler on the tail shaft to shoot some liquid CO2 into it. The
> > cold gas coming out thru the comm bars should cool them and the
> > comm bar, brush interface. Keeping O2 out of that area may also be
> > usefull.
>
> Good luck getting liquid CO2 - there is no such thing (at least at anything
> close to atmospheric pressure). CO2 gas skips a liquid state and goes
> straight to solid (dry ice).
He didn't say he was going to be spooning it onto the motor. The
typical way to store CO2 is in a pressurized bottle...in the liquid
state (mostly). There is no way to get twenty pounds worth of CO2 into
a 20 lb bottle unless it's a liquid.
At the right temperature and pressure it will remain a liquid. Over a
certain temperature it goes to a gaseous state regardless of pressure
(as I recall this about 89 degrees F), likewise below a certain pressure
it goes to gas regardless of temperature (until it gets so cold it goes
solid).
But it is certainly possible to buy liquid CO2 (I've done it numerous
times) AND it is possible to inject liquid C02 into a motor as long as
the flow rate and restrictions in the motor are enough to Keep the
pressure up enough to remain liquid until it its the hot parts.
When Co2 goes from liquid to gas it gets REALLY cold. A Co2 fire
extinguisher puts out clouds of frozen Co2.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Film would be parallel with the 'lytics. Or closer. And turn the" fun
screw" down. And monitor motor loop current.
If you could just limit motor loop current, then that is a better way
to do it. Or at least better than battery loop only. On a lab bench, I
could get >4X battery loop in the motor loop on my little motor boat
controller. 40 battery amps exploded some $100 worth of FET's after a
few seconds. I was measuring 240A on that run. That was before cycle by
cycle current limit.
Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel at the motor in
parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V "Schottkys" or FREDs on a
fan and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you are running 132V,
right Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for 192V? Just thinking
out loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons not to do it? Lee,
Rich, Otmar??
Seth
On Feb 9, 2004, at 9:21 AM, Jim Coate wrote:
Would a ultra fast fuse on the *motor* side do any good? Such fuses are
spendy but cheap compared to a controller. Although if I follow Rich's
explanation of the diode shorting out, then the fault current would all
be within the controller itself so external fuse wouldn't do anything?
Where would film caps go? Parallel with the 'lytics?
Does "current sensor" mean just a shunt and meter in the motor loops so
the driver can keep an eye on things, or some sort of sensor circuitry
that will actively do something about what is happening?
Or maybe turn the "fun screw" (current adjust knob) down a bit and keep
it there?
- Jim
who will feel really guilty if Ben doesn't get some good use out of
that
T-Rex.
Seth wrote:
I might make a few suggestions...
Add film caps (I don't remember seeing any), better connection from
the DC bus electrolytic capacitors to the power silicon array as a
start. A current sensor on the motor loop so you know what you are
doing when you drive.
_________
Jim Coate
1992 Chevy S-10
1970s Elec-Trak E20
http://www.eeevee.com
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am working on it, but I need to FTP some becasue e-mail is a loser at
4mb. And the evtech wiki doesn't seem to like movies...
Seth
On Feb 9, 2004, at 1:19 PM, Seth Murray wrote:
anyone got any more photos/video from the recent nedra event that are
not posted on the nedra site?
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not do it as a petition?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
Sounds interesting, if enough people could write to the appropriate people
at Subaru and show a collective interest. I'll pass along to some of the
other EV folks.
----- Original Message -----
From: A. Joy and W. Christopher Benham Skidmore
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 3:30 PM
Subject: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
It would be wonderful to have your feedback about or even your support for
the project proposed in the following evworld article...
I Want My R1e
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
One evworld.com member's plan to launch a movement that will bring a
full-sized, highway-capable OEM EV to market in the U.S.
February 4, 2004
LEXINGTON, KY -- Hear me out. I have a plan. Well, it's more like a
dream, but with your help we can make and implement a powerful plan for
pressuring an OEM to bring a nice EV to market.
Phase One-- PUTTING OUR HEADS TOGETHER:
Let's launch a concerted, organized, grass-roots, highly-focused campaign
to bring another full-sized highway-capable EV to market in the United
States of America.
Target one manufacturer.
Make them know it will be profitable for them because we will each:
PLEDGE TO BUY THE CAR WHEN IT IS PRODUCED.
Believing that progress can be made in the corporate sector when a large
number of consumers make their voices heard in a loud way, I want to start a
campaign to get progressive-minded consumers (and potential EV consumers)
uberfocused-- and put pressure on one car maker:
Subaru.
Here's why I want us to target Subaru:
They have proven themselves in a niche market here in the U.S. and the EV
market is still perceived as only niche by auto makers. Subaru only sells
five cars in the U.S. and have positioned themselves well as doing something
no one else does and being the exclusive go-to company when consumers know
what they want, e.g. all-wheel drive standard on every vehicle.
They already have a network of nearly 600 dealers across the United States
poised for service and distribution. They have a dealership and service
department in every state in the United States of America. I would really
love to have an EV with a nice warranty and capacity for local service.
In 2003, they only sold 186,819 units. If we can convince anyone to take
control of an entire, wide-open niche in the U.S., who better to target than
a small niche-market company. We would not need to guarantee them many
sales to make it worth their while. Even with a challenging sales
environment and an increasingly competitive marketplace, they have continued
to sustain strong sales growth in the U.S.
They have taken a step forward with a "hybrid" because what they have
designed for the B9SC is adaptable to the existing drive trains in their
other vehicles and basically turns a gas vehicle into a completely electric
vehicle until it is operated over 50mph or needs unusually quick
acceleration.
They make some quality products. Consumer Reports recommends 3/4 of
everything Subaru has ever built-- and that's not an easy achievement.
They need to clean up their image on the environmental front after their
decision to pollute more and consume more fuel by tweaking their wagons to
obtain new light-truck classifications and add turbochargers.
And of course, they have already made a 240V conductive charging,
laminated lithium-ion, totally electric R1e.
Let's tap the wellspring of wisdom and pool our resources for some potent
and honest analysis. Here's what I propose.
I want every person who has ever complained about OEMs not making an EV
for the general public to e-mail, write to via USPS mail, and call every
upper-level executive at Fuji Heavy Industries, Ltd. and Subaru of America,
Inc., and the owner of their nearest Subaru dealer-- within a set span of
time, (perhaps around Earth Day)-- and vow to purchase an EV from them if
they will meet certain specifications. I am imagining a massive concerted
effort in which we decide what we want, and then all ask for the same thing.
For example we take polls and discuss in forums until we can come to some
kind of a consensus about what we'd all like to have in this EV and then we
all call, write, and visit dealerships pledging to purchase a $25,000.00,
reliable, full-sized, vehicle-to-grid, 115and240V onboard charging, lithium
ion powered sedan, that gets 100 miles of range, that looked like a legacy
sedan, with side curtain and passenger airbags, a proper marketing campaign,
five star crash rating, seating for five, our whole wish list, etc. etc.
etc. and offer them a down payment on the vehicle immediately in advance.
If you are reading this, it means we already into phase one here. We can
make this happen if we all get involved. Bill Moore has provided us with a
forum for the initial hashing out of details, so read-on and then give your
input about this plan to launch a massive telephone-calling campaign in
which we would have people call every sales manager in all 600 dealerships
making a vow to purchase the EV from their nearest Subaru dealer, and to
also show up in person at their nearest dealer with the same pledge. Phase
one is putting our heads together-- vetting the plan by imagining every
conceivable scenario, brainstorming, criticizing, and then actually
deciding, through polls and discussion groups exactly what we can
realistically expect to "demand." I wouldn't want to launch a campaign that
involved asking people to pledge to buy any EV that Subaru might produce
Phase Two-- PUTTING OUR ENERGY TOGETHER:
Phase two is putting our energy together. It won't be easy to decide on
what we want to ask for, but once we are in agreement, we need to grow the
base of activists before we take action. I don't know how many individuals
are members of the Electric Auto Association, EV World, Electrifying Times,
Alternative Fuels groups, and other networks, but these members are the
initial base. Phase one will include input from all these members, and
perhaps many more. Once we have established a realistic product to demand,
we need to get as many people on board with this plan as we possibly can.
This involves organizing, educating, motivating, and making commitments to
spread the word and motivate potential customers. The campaign could only
be successful if we can convince a company they have a large number of
guaranteed sales.
In phase two we will need to reach out to every conceivable environmental
group from BushGreenWatch <http://www.bushgreenwatch.org/> to REPAmerica
<http://www.repamerica.org/> -- to champion this cause and get folks
onboard. During this phase we'd need folks to volunteer to make slick and
brief educational and campaign materials available to these other groups to
lobby first for the need for EVs and then for our particular plan.
It might be possible to even tap into something like Josh Tickell's
network of 10,000 biodiesel supporters as well. Could you imagine what we
could do if we had 10,000 people making a solemn vow to Kyoji Takenaka to
buy this product? Subaru only sold 10,694 units of their Baja model in
2003, and that was their best Baja sales year ever.
Phase Three-- PUTTING OUR MONEY TOGETHER:
Phase three is putting our money together. No, I do not want us to pool
our money; don't send me any money: pledge it to an automaker. Money talks.
Let's shout.
Once we've decide what we are going to ask for and have executed a
successful campaign to grow the numbers of people in our concerted movement,
then we must take action and pledge to buy a specific EV if Subaru will
bring it to market. We could use capwiz and meetup technology to help make
this happen, but we would really need to make this a top priority everywhere
we gather and in all communication channels. We'd need to carve out time
from every EVA meeting for a letter-writing campaign. This has to be a
concerted effort with a strong commitment to make the in-person visits,
surface-mail individualized (and even handwritten) letters bread for the
world style, and multiple personal phone calls. If phase one reveals a
dramatic show of interest, then I envision implementation of phase two and
phase three could begin almost concurrently.
OKAY, THAT'S MY PLAN--
It's not perfect, but I haven't heard anyone suggest something this
radical in a while, and I'd like to see what you think about it. Am I
totally off my rocker? Do you have insider info that says the reason why
the R2 was non-electric was because the existing R1e failed so miserably
that Andreas Zapatinas was fired in disgrace? Is Subaru the right place to
target? I think it is. The really big OEMs obviously ignore what they
consider to be niche markets (that's why Woodbury will make a go of the
Tango. Don't get me wrong, I want a Tango, I just can't pay $85,000.00 for
one right now.) I really don't want to hurt the upstart EV makers, but I
have heard a lot of people complain that OEMs can do this but won't. If you
have ever complained about existing automakers not producing EVs, then
please consider giving this movement all you've got. NEC Lamilion Energy is
also in partnership with GM, so that could mean even more EV technology in
the U.S., albeit in the form of SSHEVs. There are other reasons why I think
this will work than I have mentioned here, but I'd rather hear what you
think of the idea. I do not work for Subaru or GM, but I have driven one
for the past three years and I love it. If you can make the case for
targeting a different manufacturer and the larger community backs you up,
then that's where I will put my energy and efforts.
If you even think this has a snowball's chance in Death Valley, then
please let us know what you think.
If it is easier for you, please post your response in the Reader Response
window below, but the YahooGroup
<http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/evworld/> might facilitate easier
conversations. Wherever you respond, give a quick gut reaction, or take some
time to think through many dimensions of such a campaign and let us know
what you think with regard to the following items.
1. Is there a better company to target than Subaru, and if so who and
why?
2. What would be our biggest hurdles to making this happen and how can we
navigate these hurdles with success?
3. Exactly what features of a vehicle should we demand?
Specifically, what type of batteries should we demand, what type
of charging system, what range, top speed, renewable components,
vehicle-to-grid, etc.?
What safety ratings and features like ABS, curtain air bags,
should we specify, if any?
What additional features should we specify, e.g.
air-conditioning, etc.?
4. What advertising and marketing strategies should we suggest/demand
that they employ to help them insure this will be a profitable venture for
them? We have blasted GM and others for botching this side of things, so
let's help our targeted manufacturer learn from the mistakes of others.
5. What (realistically) is the maximum/optimum/ amount you are willing to
pay for the car you want?
6. Are you interested in spearheading this campaign? I have no desire to
make this all about me; I'd rather one of you supervise this campaign who
has far more experience with EVs or with community organizing than I.
7. What have I left out?
8. Should we couple this plan with a concerted initiative to also lobby
the government to fund the development of wind and/or solar technologies? I
live in coal country. Many people have argued that so long as so much of
grid is using dirty, non-renewable sources, EVs actually become part of many
problems instead of the solution. Should we try to use our organized might
to simultaneously make a strong showing to Subaru -- AND -- make a concerted
effort to call all U.S. Senators, Representatives, Governors, U.S. Cabinet
Officials, the White House, etc. to demand a very particular accomplishment:
namely, to give the U.S. Department of Energy x number of dollars to fund
research into developing cost effective PV technology, specifically--
Professor Michael Graetzel's (of the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology)
Dye-Sensitized Solar Cells (DSSCs) (with an emphasis on replacing the liquid
electrolytes that are mostly used today for the hole-transport function by
conductive polymers) and a full organic approach, in which a mixture of
electron-acceptor and electron-donor organic materials is sandwiched between
two electrodes, such as that being explored by STMicroelectronics. Perhaps
we can engage in a concerted effort to level the energy playing field for
wind by citing examples such as the High Winds Energy Center between San
Francisco and Sacramento, seems to be an example that has refined most, if
not all, previous problems with wind turbines.
Just my two cents worth.
Now let's have yours.
this article was originally published at
http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The blue on the spent bars from CE was in different locations no real
pattern. D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:05 AM 9/02/04 -0600, you wrote:
Hi, all. I inquired about the type of motor (i.e. PM, series, shunt, etc.)
for item 10-1809 at surpluscenter.com. Here is their response:
<SNIP> I believe that this motor is series wound type. It has three
terminals; two
on the brush end, one in the mid-section of the gearmotor. The motor has a
small number of windings of thick wire which are connected in series with
the brushes. It looks like we have this motor mis-advertised because I was
only able to make it run in a clockwise direction. With three terminals it
will not be reversible."
>From the winding description, it sure sounds like a series. I figured this
would be good in a mower or go-kart or something. They have since changed
the item description to reflect that it is series wound.
But the big question is: What's the third terminal for???
It may be for reverse - I have a forklift traction motor with three
terminals - and two sets of fields, one set wound with interpoles, one without.
I also have another motor that has three terminals, doubling the field
strength by doubling the field winding to the third terminal - halve the
speed and double the tourque (ish).
So the concice and accurate answer is... it depends!
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia
This mornings' find - exhaust pipe "U" bend that will be ideal for the
blower connections to my traction motor - just add MIG!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
In reaction to Bruce Parmenter's comments..
First they ignore you,
> then they laugh at you,
> then they fight you,
> then you win (they lose)'.
We've moved from step one to step two. ;-)
I think we may be on step three, with step four fast approaching.
(un)fortunently via the Hybrid branch of things.
The Prius EV-Button news is exciting stuff.
It appears that the Prius is becomming more
EV than Hybrid with each new revision, maybe
it will even be gridable next time!
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/message/34813
Check it out, 31% gain in mileage achieved by being able to
choose when not to use the ICE! Perhaps soon it'll have the
ability to use the ICE only on rare ocassions, here's hoping.
( Wayne also has an additional ?7.5Ah PbA pack in parallel )
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/message/34622
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/2004-prius/message/34818
Also much discussion on the AI-ish-ness of the Prius BMS systems
and the difficulties with External-Charging that arise from it.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So could incorrect motor timing have contributed to the death of my Raptor?
And Seth and Ben this would mean that correct timing is critical to
prolong the T-Rex life span?
Rich Rudman wrote:
> It [timing] has a very
large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Getting way off topic, but what fun.....
Roland Wiench wrote:
> Hello John and all,
>
> This is dinosaur country. The name of this creature is a which Japenese
> call is a Gojulas Dinosaur type (RBOZ-003), also call Terox and Zoidzilla.
> The technical name is Tyrannasaurus.
>
> There are children books that talk about a dinosaur named King Zilla which
> is a T-Rex.
Wrong! Take a look at a typical T-Rex....yes, a similar 'walks upright' profile to
Godzilla, but also way different. The T-Rex was a real dinosaur, that by all accounts,
had
long, powerful hind legs, an aggressive skull shape with a longish snout, eyes more on
the
sides, and a smooth back. Godzilla is a fictional, Japanese monster, with short, stubby
rear legs, a more human-like skull shape with human like eye placement and oversize
gorrila-like nostrils, and most different....large armor plates radiating down the
back,
much like a Stegosaurus...all of these monster attributes, are very un-T-Rex.
By the way, T-Rex's full technical name is Tyrannosaurus Rex, and even if you live in
dinosaur country, you won't ever find skeletal remains of a Godzilla!
See Ya.....John Wayland
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There is a 02 Prius pack on e-bay for $375 and with no bids yet.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2459235299&sspagename=ADME%3AB%3ASS%3AUS%3A1
Interesting stuff, looking to replace expensive NiMH with more
affordable yet highly umm, managed, PbA for use in Hybrids.
http://www.e4engineering.com/item.asp?id=51185&type=news
L8r
Ryan
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171 volts? That's a lot higher then mine like to be. Also a 132 volt
pack of US-145's. When new I think I was up at around 168 volts. Now
with age that has dropped a lot... I've been using 160 volts. Even with
that if the batteries are fairly warm (60-something degrees) to start, I
notice substantial warming near the end of charge. Trying to get up to
the 168-171 volts would take the full 20 amps and never get there and/or
get really hot along the way.
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
But my new 132 VDC pack is doing fine. I have the
PFC-50 charger set to 171 and I my battery warmers
set to 80 F.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
> Subject: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
> OK, I was a bit hasty.
Indeed...I was hasty. The E-meter is fine.
Turns out both my shunt sense wires had snapped.
I checked the voltage today---49mv or so, meaning -500amps as displayed.
Powered down the E-Meter and reattached the shunt sense wires and now things
work just fine.
Moral of the story:
1) don't use solid core wire for flexible cable runs if you can help it.
2) don't be in too much of a hurry (It was almost dark and I wanted to go
boating)
3) use the voltmeter before presuming things are all messed up.
4) don't email the list until checking what you can...
-Myles Twete
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Tonight, I removed the brush cover from my 6.7" ADC and accelerated hard
down a dark road. It's a motorcycle, so the brushes were easy to see. I
expected to see the sharp blue of electric arc, but all I got was a barely
perceptible orange glow at 350 A, 48 v. Since I rarely accelerate this
hard, I take this as an indication that advancing my brushes will not be of
great benefit. What do you guys think? Thanks, Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 6:05 PM
Subject: Re: EV digest 3007
> Lee Hart wrote:
> >> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency at the small
> >> advance angles normally used to control arcing (5-10 degrees).
> >> Large changes in brush advance have a progressively larger effect
> >> on the torque-speed curves and efficiency.
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > It has a massive effect when you are running the motor
> > at 10 to 20 times its nameplate power levels.
>
> I think we are in agreement, Rich. I was speaking of normal operating
> conditions, where you don't stray too far away from nameplate ratings.
> You are talking about high power conditions at several times the motor's
> rated voltage and current.
>
> > I don't think you really have a grasp of how far and fast the
> > timing goes to hell on most of our street driven EV motors.
>
> I agree completely! I've never run any of my motors at over 2x rated
> voltage, or 3x rated current (and certainly not both at the same time).
> But you have! :-)
>
> > Since you are one of our esteamed EV list Gurus with LOTS of math
> > and text book training, Care to do the math on where the brushes
> > "Should be". At any given load and RPM?
>
> Ah, but it's one of those pesky "real world" problems! In theory, the
> brushes don't need to be advanced, or wouldn't move. But in practice,
> the iron saturates, the magnetic fields warp, and things get very
> twisted! You can't calculate it. You have to experiment!
>
> > Please don't just quote the "Very little effect" Dogma. It has a
> > very large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
> > It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
>
> Remember, I said the brush advance has very little effect on
> *efficiency*. But the whole point of brush advance is that it has a BIG
> effect on arcing, reliability, and the motor's torque-speed
> characteristics! You adjust the brushes for all these latter reasons;
> not for efficiency!
> --
> "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
> world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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My table shows CO2 liquefies at 76 degF and 921.1 psia. Heat of
vaporization is 53.3 Btu/lb. If you want more effective cooling, better to
use water, with a heat of vaporization of over 1000 Btu/lb. Mark T.
> He didn't say he was going to be spooning it onto the motor. The
> typical way to store CO2 is in a pressurized bottle...in the liquid
> state (mostly). There is no way to get twenty pounds worth of CO2 into
> a 20 lb bottle unless it's a liquid.
>
> At the right temperature and pressure it will remain a liquid. Over a
> certain temperature it goes to a gaseous state regardless of pressure
> (as I recall this about 89 degrees F), likewise below a certain pressure
> it goes to gas regardless of temperature (until it gets so cold it goes
> solid).
>
> But it is certainly possible to buy liquid CO2 (I've done it numerous
> times) AND it is possible to inject liquid C02 into a motor as long as
> the flow rate and restrictions in the motor are enough to Keep the
> pressure up enough to remain liquid until it its the hot parts.
>
> When Co2 goes from liquid to gas it gets REALLY cold. A Co2 fire
> extinguisher puts out clouds of frozen Co2.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> It's opposite, I said EV motor wound to accept only 6 kHz will get
> hurt by applying 60 Hz to it *if you still want to take out rated
> power*.
I agree; you must reduce the power in proportion to the frequency
reduction. In other words, a 60 Hz motor at 50 Hz only delivers 5/6th of
its rated horsepower. Basically, the winding current is the same, but the
voltage and rpm are 5/6th.
However, no (normal) EV motor is ever designed for 6 KHz! It would require
stupendously thin, special laminations. Most likely, it would have to use
something like powdered iron, ferrite or molypermalloy cores -- much as
you'd see in the transformer of a switching power supply.
Victor, you may want to look up some textbooks on how an induction motor
works. Basically it is a transformer. A very odd transformer because it has
a rotating secondary. However, its "primary" is almost exactly like any
other transformer's secondary. Its equivalent circuit, electrical
behaviour, high-frequency characteristics, losses, etc. are virtually
identical.
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> > >> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency. You adjust it to
> > >> minimize arcing.
> > I didn't say "no" effect :-) But brush advance has very little effect
> > on efficiency at the small advance angles normally used to control
> > arcing (5-10 degrees).
> Please don't just quote the "Very little effect" Dogma. It has a very
> large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
> It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
Rich, Lee didn't say it had no effect on the motors, he said it had very
little effect on _efficiency_. What he's saying is that the motors don't run
much hotter/less efficient, not that arcing is not reduced significantly.
> Taking your last quote inside out:
> large amp changes have a large effect on brush advance setting, and so
> do on the torque speed curves as well as efficiency.
> It's the same concept. With really big amps, brush static timing becomes
> really Bad. This clearly effects the watts into VS the watts out the
> motor shaft.
I'm not sure it does, Rich. The arcing doesn't represent a significant
amount of energy loss, it's just hard on the motor. Efficiency is strictly
concerned with how much of the energy at the input terminals makes it to the
output shaft. I think Lee is correct - ajusting brush timing on a series
motor doesn't seriously affect efficiency - a few percentage points at most.
What it does do is enable the motor to continue to survive. ;-)
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Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Measure inductance of the stator of a Siemens motor. Few hundred uH,
> that's what inverter's software shows. Let's say 200 uH. It's impedance
> is 2pi*f*L. Well, at 60 Hz it's 6.28*60*200e-6=0.075 Ohm, negligible
> at 60 Hz.
>
> Now, measure stator windings resistance. 7 mOhm...15 mOhm, depending
> on the model. Now, apply 120V 60 Hz 3 phase to the 15 mOhm stator
> windings. How much current you get? You'll melt the copper before eddy
> currents will warm up the rotor.
That is not the whole picture, Victor. You are giving the locked-rotor
resistance and inductance. Of course the stator windings will burn up if
you apply full voltage to a stalled motor!
A more complete equivalent circuit of an induction motor includes the rotor
resistance and inductance (whose value depends on the slip), the
magnetizing reactance (which determines the current it draws running with
no load), and the load resistance (the equivalent electrical resistance
represented by the mechanical load). When the rotor is running near
synchronous speed, the apparent inductance and load resistance are
something like 100 times larger than the locked-rotor characteristics.
For reference, here are the values for a 120/208vac 3-phase 60 Hz 10 HP
induction motor:
R(stator) = 0.294 ohms
Z(stator) = 0.503 ohms
R(rotor) = 0.144 ohms
Z(rotor) = 0.209 ohms
Z(magnetizing) = 13.25 ohms
This motor draws about 19 amps at full load, at a power factor of 0.85 and
efficiency of about 86%.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 20:46, Mark Thomasson wrote:
> My table shows CO2 liquefies at 76 degF and 921.1 psia.
And it also liquefies at 30 degF and 491 psi, and 60 deg and 747 psi,
etc.
> Heat of
> vaporization is 53.3 Btu/lb. If you want more effective cooling, better to
> use water, with a heat of vaporization of over 1000 Btu/lb. Mark T.
>
True, but water also conducts electricity and causes corrosion.
Not that is necessarily a problem with short runs at a drag strip.
Then again, I'm not saying that C02 is a particularly good idea, just
that it's possible.
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: nedra photos
> I am working on it, but I need to FTP some becasue e-mail is a loser at
> 4mb. And the evtech wiki doesn't seem to like movies...
Sorry, will fix.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 22:07, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> > > >> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency. You adjust it to
> > > >> minimize arcing.
>
> > > I didn't say "no" effect :-) But brush advance has very little effect
> > > on efficiency at the small advance angles normally used to control
> > > arcing (5-10 degrees).
>
> > Please don't just quote the "Very little effect" Dogma. It has a very
> > large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
> > It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
>
> Rich, Lee didn't say it had no effect on the motors, he said it had very
> little effect on _efficiency_. What he's saying is that the motors don't run
> much hotter/less efficient, not that arcing is not reduced significantly.
Arcing isn't the only thing that effects efficiency. Different brush
angles also effect the position and timing of the rotors magnetic
field. This effects how efficiently it interacts with the stators
magnetic field.
I'll admit I'm not sure how much effect a small change like 5 degrees
makes. I do know that 15-20 degrees makes a HUGE difference in
efficiency, RPM, and torque.
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--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> So could incorrect motor timing have contributed to the death of my Raptor?
>
> And Seth and Ben this would mean that correct timing is critical to
> prolong the T-Rex life span?
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> > It [timing] has a very
> > large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
> > It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
> >
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
Yes bad timing was the priamry reason the Raptors(200 volt Mosfets) 120
amps times 14. Died. Almost all Sparrow had Nuetral to only 5 ahead
timing, NOT enough for 156 volts and a direct drive 1500 lbs EV. The
brushes would arc very badly vaporizing brush rigging and Brass plasma
coating the whole inside of the motor. Sooner or later one of the
brushes would let go from not being supported and would get eaten by the
rest of the motor. Some arcing actually got to the field coils casusing
a massive arc, that would lock up the motor at speed. Kinda a fun ride
in a 3 wheeler.... Been there done that.
I can have digi shots of the field coil it's about 10 feet from my
chair. As a matter of fact it may be on my site in the Project 8 down
loads.
What ever it clearly shows that Bad timing can eat the motor and the
controller. The only thing Otmar does NOT warrentee his Zilla against is
a Motor fireBall. Funny, it can happen rather easily...and not
nessasarily at Madman level amps and volts. Ot's stuff can stand a
20,000 amp pulse, it shuts down on a VSat trip... Nice idea. Then you
have to wake it up and tell it you are sorry!!! and it comes back if
there is no real short. Ot just tested this fact with a 6 inch short
path from motor + to motor -, I have seen the melted 0/4 cable!!! Rather
impressive....
So set the timing to the advanced slot or make sure it's about 10 Deg
advanced to the rotation you are using.
Also if you notice any acring at any time, find out why or expect to be
looking for controllers.
Do you have any idea how your brushes look???? they still there???
Springs all ok??? all free to move, nothing sticking???? Any brush leads
purple???
There are reasons good silicon decides to check out....Knowing them
leads to tougher drives.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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