EV Digest 3347
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ampabout - new batts
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Arcing, efficiency, and a two-by-four.
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) City ELs on eBay
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Citicars on eBay
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sparrow reborn
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Sparrow reborn, Comments
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: nedra photos
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Fame at last, or something
by "paul compton (RRes-Roth)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: DCP fix - external diodes?
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Manure, steam electric hybrid(was Oxygen and oil)
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Arcing, efficiency, and a two-by-four.
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) odd car on eBay
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: death of a DCP raptor
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) The Wheel
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: odd car on eBay
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Fame at last, or something
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642Comments
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: death of a DCP raptor - Schottky's
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Sparrow reborn
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Sparrow reborn, in Phoenix???
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Sparrow reborn, in Phoenix???
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Sparrow reborn, in Phoenix???
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) transmission interchanges?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
34) Re: Sparrow reborn
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
> >
> > Ok I am seeing your lack of thought.... slight..but significant..
> > The motors won't care about the 6Khz PWM it cares about the 60Hz or the
> > rotational Hertz, NOT the base PWM.
>
> It's rather simple Rich, before we get to eddy losses and laminations:
>
> Find a 400 Hz aircraft transformer and plug it in 60 Hz
> outlet with the same voltage. Let the smoke out of it, and
> then reply to me with what do you think why it happened.
>
> Back to motors.
>
> Measure inductance of the stator of a Siemens motor. Few hundred uH,
> that's what inverter's software shows. Let's say 200 uH.
>
> It's impedance is 2pi*f*L. Well, at 60 Hz it's 6.28*60*200e-6=0.075
> Ohm, negligible at 60 Hz.
>
> Now, measure stator windings resistance. 7 mOhm...15 mOhm, depending
> on the model. Now, apply 120V 60 Hz 3 phase to the 15 mOhm stator
> windings.
> How much current you get? You'll melt the copper before eddy currents
> will warm up the rotor.
>
> Your minibike motor gets warm because of saturated rotor
> and *therefore* high eddy currents. And, it's saturated
> because not enough impedance *if you apply rated voltage*.
>
> But wait - whom do I talk to? 10-20 times of name plate ratings guy?
> Sorry, then you saturate because limited flux of the iron compare
> to the amps you push hopelessly overloading it. Minibike example
> is good but does not qualify for an answer.
>
> I'm discussing normal application within ratings.
> You can't even get half of rated power of hi freq motor
> at 60 Hz, let alone the chance to enjoy overloading it.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
I am going tolet Joe answer this one.
I don't have the EE to battle you on this one.
It's the V/F ratio... Of each motor. Not the transformers.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The US Battery spec calls for 2.583 / cell at 80F so Bruce's 171 is correct.
I'd be interested in knowing if people are following US's recommendation or
going with the lower "Trojan" voltages.
Steve
In a message dated 2/9/2004 7:30:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
171 volts? That's a lot higher then mine like to be. Also a 132 volt
pack of US-145's. When new I think I was up at around 168 volts. Now
with age that has dropped a lot... I've been using 160 volts. Even with
that if the batteries are fairly warm (60-something degrees) to start, I
notice substantial warming near the end of charge. Trying to get up to
the 168-171 volts would take the full 20 amps and never get there and/or
get really hot along the way.
Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> But my new 132 VDC pack is doing fine. I have the
> PFC-50 charger set to 171 and I my battery warmers
> set to 80 F.
>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 07:31 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 at 1:15, Brad Waddell wrote:
Here is the web site for the new sparrow company - more EV's on the
road!
http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.com/Sparrow%20Home%20Page.htm
At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose
it
well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they
had
in the earlier versions of the car.
How alarming! I bought one of the Sparrow motors (ADC part number
203-06-4004) for my EV. What was wrong with them?
From reading the list, I had gotten the impression that Sparrows tended
to kill their batteries. I hadn't heard anything about motor problems.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles Twete wrote:
Moral of the story:
1) don't use solid core wire for flexible
cable runs if you can help it.
After 25+ years of working on vehicles/vessels my rule of thumb is to
_never_ use solid core wiring on a vehicle/vessel.
(or anything that moves)
Show me _one_ OEM vehicle with an insulated single strand of wire run.
I don't think I need my flame shield for this, I suspect this is a given
:-)
The more strands the better...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Updated!
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
> > > >> Brush advance has very little effect on efficiency. You adjust it to
> > > >> minimize arcing.
>
> > > I didn't say "no" effect :-) But brush advance has very little effect
> > > on efficiency at the small advance angles normally used to control
> > > arcing (5-10 degrees).
>
> > Please don't just quote the "Very little effect" Dogma. It has a very
> > large effect at amps over 500, and voltages over 120 VDC.
> > It's what kills Sparrow motors and eats controllers.
>
> Rich, Lee didn't say it had no effect on the motors, he said it had very
> little effect on _efficiency_. What he's saying is that the motors don't run
> much hotter/less efficient, not that arcing is not reduced significantly.
>
> > Taking your last quote inside out:
> > large amp changes have a large effect on brush advance setting, and so
> > do on the torque speed curves as well as efficiency.
> > It's the same concept. With really big amps, brush static timing becomes
> > really Bad. This clearly effects the watts into VS the watts out the
> > motor shaft.
>
> I'm not sure it does, Rich. The arcing doesn't represent a significant
> amount of energy loss, it's just hard on the motor. Efficiency is strictly
> concerned with how much of the energy at the input terminals makes it to the
> output shaft. I think Lee is correct - ajusting brush timing on a series
> motor doesn't seriously affect efficiency - a few percentage points at most.
> What it does do is enable the motor to continue to survive. ;-)
Lee is pretty much right within the Motor specs.
The slope gets really slippery and steep outside it though.
Alot steaper then most think. It's like falling off the top of a sine
wave.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 07:31 AM, David Roden wrote:
>
> > On 9 Feb 2004 at 1:15, Brad Waddell wrote:
> >
> >> Here is the web site for the new sparrow company - more EV's on the
> >> road!
> >>
> >> http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.com/Sparrow%20Home%20Page.htm
> >>
> >
> > At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose
> > it
> > well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they
> > had
> > in the earlier versions of the car.
>
> How alarming! I bought one of the Sparrow motors (ADC part number
> 203-06-4004) for my EV. What was wrong with them?
>
> From reading the list, I had gotten the impression that Sparrows tended
> to kill their batteries. I hadn't heard anything about motor problems.
>
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
Relax Doug... the motors are fine.
The "motor problem" was Corbin never set them up right.
The Ac drive in a Sparrow is NOT the quick cure... it's the expensive
cure that will have alot of issues.
Wait until they have a real road test of the AC drives.
We all said a Ac drive was the way to go but it cost twice the list
price of the Sparrow.
I am pretty sure that has not changed much.
time will tell.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich called me to respond to this.
He was getting a little agitated and was having trouble with it.
I read the posts from today and only had trouble with the items commented
below. The rest of the comments from Lee and Victor follow reality very
well.
Good discussion. Keep up the good work.
Comments inserted...
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Rich Rudman wrote:
> > >
> > > Ok I am seeing your lack of thought.... slight..but significant..
> > > The motors won't care about the 6Khz PWM it cares about the
60Hz or the
> > > rotational Hertz, NOT the base PWM.
The PWM frequency matters but it is usually minor compared to the other
losses and effects.
> > It's rather simple Rich, before we get to eddy losses and laminations:
> >
> > Find a 400 Hz aircraft transformer and plug it in 60 Hz
> > outlet with the same voltage. Let the smoke out of it, and
> > then reply to me with what do you think why it happened.
Too little inductance causes excessive primary current and the copper losses
overheat the primary copper. To get a 400 Hz transfromer to survive on 60 Hz
the voltage needs to be reduced proportionally. A 400 Hz 120 VAC transformer
will work with 60 Hz at 36 volts.
> > Back to motors.
> >
> > Measure inductance of the stator of a Siemens motor. Few hundred uH,
> > that's what inverter's software shows. Let's say 200 uH.
> >
> > It's impedance is 2pi*f*L. Well, at 60 Hz it's 6.28*60*200e-6=0.075
> > Ohm, negligible at 60 Hz.
or 0.5 ohms at 400 Hz or 5 ohms at 4 kHz.
> > Now, measure stator windings resistance. 7 mOhm...15 mOhm, depending
> > on the model. Now, apply 120V 60 Hz 3 phase to the 15 mOhm stator
> > windings.
Why would you want to hook it up to 120 VAC at 60 Hz? The current needs to
be controlled by adjusting the voltage. The voltage needs to be limited to a
stay with the safe operating limits of the motor. The resistance
measurements are at DC conditions. If the rotor is turning, the impedence
goes up. Measure the voltage going to your motor at 1800 RPM. No doubt that
it is less than pack voltage. The motor impedance will be low when the motor
is stopped and rises with RPM. The inverter control loop senses current and
adjusts the voltage as the RPM changes.
Neither of the above calculations take into account the reflected impedance
of the rotating secondary of the transformer.
> > How much current you get? You'll melt the copper before eddy currents
> > will warm up the rotor.
The same thing will happen if you connect your batteries directly up to the
motor. The motor is designed for a limited current per phase. It takes a
different amount of voltage to produce this current depending on the RPM.
Using the wrong frequency and/or voltage can easily push the current outside
these operating limits. Your motor can run at 120 VAC but NOT at 60Hz. The
RPM and frequency must be higher to increase the reflected impedance of the
rotating secondary. Your motor will run at 60 Hz but NOT at 120 VAC, The
voltage must be lower to stay within the current limits.
> > Your minibike motor gets warm because of saturated rotor
> > and *therefore* high eddy currents. And, it's saturated
> > because not enough impedance *if you apply rated voltage*.
No doubt, it is the current that gets Rich in trouble. High voltage is the
tool he uses to get the current to flow.
> > But wait - whom do I talk to? 10-20 times of name plate ratings guy?
> > Sorry, then you saturate because limited flux of the iron compare
> > to the amps you push hopelessly overloading it. Minibike example
> > is good but does not qualify for an answer.
It is an answer, but definately not typical.
> > I'm discussing normal application within ratings.
> > You can't even get half of rated power of hi freq motor
> > at 60 Hz, let alone the chance to enjoy overloading it.
Torque is approximately proportional to current.
Voltage is approximately proportional to RPM.
Fixed frequency gives a narrow operating RPM based only on slip.
You will not get enough RPM out of a high frequency motor at (60 Hz) to get
anywhere close to full power even though you are getting full torque at full
current.
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> I am going tolet Joe answer this one.
> I don't have the EE to battle you on this one.
> It's the V/F ratio... Of each motor. Not the transformers.
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out a 30 year old GMC Starter.
There is a copper conductor from the load side of the solenoid to the input
terminal of the starter motor.
It IS insulated and
it IS a single strand conductor and
it IS on an OEM vehicle.
The reason they do this is to support the end of the solenoid so it is less
likely to vibrate loose.
I have seen other applications, but the longest I recall is about 6 inches.
In all cases, the rod is there to mechanically hold up a part to keep it
from breaking or falling off. They make it out of copper to reduce the
heating and losses as a conductor. They insulate it to help keep debris from
shorting the power to chassis ground and possibly causing a fire.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: RE: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
>
> Myles Twete wrote:
>
> >Moral of the story:
> >1) don't use solid core wire for flexible
> >cable runs if you can help it.
>
> After 25+ years of working on vehicles/vessels my rule of thumb is to
> _never_ use solid core wiring on a vehicle/vessel.
>
> (or anything that moves)
>
> Show me _one_ OEM vehicle with an insulated single strand of wire run.
>
> I don't think I need my flame shield for this, I suspect this is a given
> :-)
>
> The more strands the better...
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> Updated!
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Get some great ideas here for your sweetheart on Valentine's Day - and
> beyond. http://special.msn.com/network/celebrateromance.armx
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We used to use CO2 for shifting transmissions in the rail. Didnt seem to
cause much if any problems. I wonder if dry nitrogen (available at most
welding supply shops) would do better? David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:16 PM
Subject: Re: ADC commutator bonding specs
> On Mon, 2004-02-09 at 20:46, Mark Thomasson wrote:
> > My table shows CO2 liquefies at 76 degF and 921.1 psia.
> And it also liquefies at 30 degF and 491 psi, and 60 deg and 747 psi,
> etc.
>
> > Heat of
> > vaporization is 53.3 Btu/lb. If you want more effective cooling, better
to
> > use water, with a heat of vaporization of over 1000 Btu/lb. Mark T.
> >
>
> True, but water also conducts electricity and causes corrosion.
>
> Not that is necessarily a problem with short runs at a drag strip.
>
> Then again, I'm not saying that C02 is a particularly good idea, just
> that it's possible.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doug, If you are going to use it at 120 volts or above, please
advance the timing. I beg you.
Roderick
On Monday, February 9, 2004, at 07:31 AM, David Roden wrote:
On 9 Feb 2004 at 1:15, Brad Waddell wrote:
Here is the web site for the new sparrow company - more EV's on the road!
http://www.phoenixenvironmentalmotors.com/Sparrow%20Home%20Page.htm
At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose it
well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they had
in the earlier versions of the car.
How alarming! I bought one of the Sparrow motors (ADC part number
203-06-4004) for my EV. What was wrong with them?
From reading the list, I had gotten the impression that Sparrows
tended to kill their batteries. I hadn't heard anything about motor
problems.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.homedns.org:8100/weblog/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, Feb 09, 2004 at 05:26:28PM -0800, John Lussmyer wrote:
> Hey, the belt IS field replaceable! Just ask Tony about breaking his belt
> at the SEVA meeting last year...
> (Of course it took 4 guys, 2 tool boxes, and a lot of work, but we DID
> replace it during the meeting. :-)
Now do it along side the freeway during rush hour ;-)
Though that's actually the least likely place for it to give, I'd guess.
In my case, it was starting out from a stop sign going up a moderate slope.
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No problem, it isn't the "film studio" bottleneck. That's me...
Seth
On Feb 10, 2004, at 12:21 AM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 5:45 PM
Subject: Re: nedra photos
I am working on it, but I need to FTP some becasue e-mail is a loser
at
4mb. And the evtech wiki doesn't seem to like movies...
Sorry, will fix.
S.
Seth Allen
AKA "the cynic"
" the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was contacted by Top Gear magazine recently for a last minute feature on someone
using an EV for commuting. Well, mine is off the road for a new battery pack and some
other upgrades, but they weren't worried and I did an interview over the phone. Two
days later they sent around a photographer and lo an behold I have a full page in the
current issue. Shame they left off all the web addresses.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
the other seth wrote:
Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel at the motor in
parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V "Schottkys" or FREDs on a
fan and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you are running 132V,
right Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for 192V? Just thinking
out loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons not to do it? Lee,
Rich, Otmar??
now that's an intriguing idea....
Seth Murray
AKA "the hopeful"
"the curious"
"the other other seth"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't remember who wrote it:"Driving Without Gas". I still (pun) think an
alcohol fired boiler for a steam electric hybrid is a shortcut to the H2
economy. tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lonnie Borntreger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 12:39 AM
Subject: Re: Oxygen and oil
> Holy s**t!! (sorry, couldn't resist) :-D
>
> But seriously, that's a s**tload (oops, there I go again) of manure.
> Exactly what were your plans for it? And better yet, what was your
> source?
>
> That takes a LOT of cattle (or time) to "stockpile" (get it... stock ...
> pile ... it's a farmer joke. ok, I'm done).
>
> Lonnie Borntreger
>
> On Sun, 2004-02-08 at 23:01, David Chapman wrote:
> > 260,000 cubic yards. DC.
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 9:50 PM
> > Subject: Re: Oxygen and oil
> >
> >
> > > How much manure were you stockpiling?
> > >
> > > Joe Smalley
> > > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > > Fiesta 48 volts
> > > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 8:47 PM
> > > Subject: Re: Oxygen and oil
> > >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > Sent: Sunday, February 08, 2004 5:02 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: Oxygen and oil
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > A pile of oily rags can spontaneousely combust. I saw a haystack
stat
> > > to
> > > > > glow the go up in flames too. tom
> > > >
> > > > Too easy. I am kinda well known even now with the area fire fighters
> > from
> > > > when my manure pile went up. Took all day to put out and I still had
hot
> > > > spots weeks later. David Chapman.
> > > >
> > >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>very little effect<
CE
with the same given power settings from the old zilla and an efficent brush
setting will yield 6 percent less et and mph(in the 9.7sec.range) than when the
brushes are moving during a run.NOT really a large# but the effect .56 seconds
is huge in drag racing terms. Give the NHRA stars.05 this year and they
would be celebrating. D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This looks like a very lightweight EV on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2459636245
Seller thinks you can title it, but somehow I kind of doubt it.
Anybody know what these might be?
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A look around DigiKey makes this a $500-ish project for 5-10 high
current modules, plus designing appropriate wiring/connecting methods.
Plus labor. Nothing is easy as they say.
Or use as seed money for new controller fund.
- Jim
Brought to you by the word: "Epitaxial"
"
Seth wrote:
Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel at the motor in
parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V "Schottkys" or FREDs on a fan
and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you are running 132V, right
Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for 192V? Just thinking out
loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons not to do it? Lee, Rich,
Otmar??
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
http://www.e-traction.com/TheWheel.htm
120kW wheel for busses/forklifts.
Perhaps 2 on the back of CE would be nice.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Tuesday, February 10, 2004, at 08:49 AM, Aaron Birenboim wrote:
This looks like a very lightweight EV on eBay:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/
eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2459636245
Seller thinks you can title it, but somehow I kind of doubt it.
Anybody know what these might be?
These are City ELs, German electric commuter vehicles. They're designed
to have a top speed of about 30 MPH. I suppose you could title one as
an NEV here, but I doubt you could get much else. Maybe in some states
as a motorcycle.
http://www.cityel.com/
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: paul compton (RRes-Roth) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 10, 2004 7:50 AM
Subject: Fame at last, or something
> I was contacted by Top Gear magazine recently for a last minute feature on
someone using an EV for commuting. Well, mine is off the road for a new
battery pack and some other upgrades, but they weren't worried and I did an
interview over the phone. Two days later they sent around a photographer and
lo an behold I have a full page in the current issue. Shame they left off
all the web addresses.
>
>
> Paul Compton
> www.sciroccoev.co.uk
Way to go Paul!!
Thanks for the Heads Up, will be looking forward to hearing more, from
Top Gear, or, of course,. EV World, Bill Moore, got your ears on? Good Story
coming!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Christopher Meier <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 9:23 PM
Subject: Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
> Why not do it as a petition?
> Hi EVerybody;
Yeah, that sounds like a plan.?? Ya gotta admire the Rev's Plan for
Subaru. BUT, and a bigger But than mine, Subaru is part owned but General
Murders, I'm SURE the home office would shoot down anything llike that" We
TRIED that already" they would say. This is a tough call! Not from any big
car co, I'm afraid. Maybe the Tango can pull it off? as a limited edition,
or Sparrow., or a "dark" horse, Hai(Black )Bao (Leopard) if my Chinese is
correct??? Seems to be some doubt, after my post of yesterday. But I thought
I picked up in the chatter that Rich was involved.??NOW yur talking! Had he
been listened to by the Corbin folks, He TRIED to help, but they did things
like Frank Sinatra, " MY WAY!" and that was the beginning of the end as Dave
Roden pointed out. Bad taste remains in a lotta gpod folks that put their
money up front, in good faith. Dealers left hanging, like the bad old Tucker
Torpedo daze. We KNOW that the " Sparrow ADC motors were just fine, with the
right brush timing they wouklda pulled the light Sparrow just fine, but
there was doubt, even on the List. Bad news travveled fast. Sigh!
As Rich said, the AC isn't the panasea for Sparrow's problems. I would
vote for the battery and it's managment system, or lack theof, that helped
kill the Sparrow. If the Phoenix Motor Works guyz address these things, they
are 'way ahead of things at the Get Go.The Rev Ben, has a good idea, IF we
or anybody can stear his enthusiasm in the right direction. I'm preaching to
the choir here. Sorry! It sorta slipped out<G.>! But we hava bunch of good
ideas on here. Just hope I can jeep a good thread going.
A Nobody talking to EVerybody
Bob
> http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
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--- Begin Message ---
I have some 200V, 400A Schottky power modules
in a TO-244AB package.
1 or 2 of these should work.
Low price if your interested.
Rod
--- Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A look around DigiKey makes this a $500-ish project
> for 5-10 high
> current modules, plus designing appropriate
> wiring/connecting methods.
> Plus labor. Nothing is easy as they say.
> Or use as seed money for new controller fund.
>
> - Jim
> Brought to you by the word: "Epitaxial"
> "
>
> Seth wrote:
> > Maybe "the diode from hell" wired for freewheel
> at the motor in
> > parallel with the 'Rex? Like multiple 200V
> "Schottkys" or FREDs on a fan
> > and heatsink bolted adjacent to the motor (you are
> running 132V, right
> > Jim?) Seth Murray might need a 300V FRED for 192V?
> Just thinking out
> > loud on that one. Maybe there are good reasons not
> to do it? Lee, Rich,
> > Otmar??
> >
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Rich,
Since you are "on the inside" let the powers to be know that I
want a:
Merlin
DC Powered
Z1K controlled
PFC-20/30 charged
Orbitals, temp comp regulated
Wayland sound system
Under $19k
Hmmm.... A 3 wheeled Tango Jr Ragtop.....cool...
Stay Charged!
Hump
>The Ac drive in a Sparrow is NOT the quick cure... it's the
expensive cure
>that will have alot of issues.
>Wait until they have a real road test of the AC drives.
> We all said a Ac drive was the way to go but it cost twice
the list
>price of the Sparrow. I am pretty sure that has not changed much.
>time will tell.
>
>--
>Rich Rudman
>Manzanita Micro
>www.manzanitamicro.com
>1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 8:31 AM
> Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
>
>
> > I read the home page for Phoenix, though, and what I saw there doesn't
> give
> > me a whole lot of confidence for the future of this operation. Not sure
I
> > can explain why, it's just a notion. Keep your fingers crossed.
> >
>
> Hi David,
>
> I'm feeling a little shaky about it too. I hope that it's just the sour
> aftertaste of the last batch of lemonade we were served in the EV
Communtiy
> with these products.
>
> BTW, what city is PEM located in?
> Gees! Isn't it in Phoenix?? Silly question I would think, but ya never
know, I didn't check for a real time address in the Web site. Or are they
alludeing to rising from the asches thing, a Phoenix-ian thing?They could be
in Orcnazie, Japan<g> Or Grovers Mills, NJ. Or Speonk NY? Hope it comes out
that they really ARE in Phoenix so ya can check them out. If they are real
EV'ers they would welcome the interest.
Seeya At PEM?
Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
They need more realistic numbers first. A 100 mpc Li-Ion Legacy sedan with
side air bags for $25,000? The similarly equipped ICE version is $22,000.
Tim
------------
From: "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=642
Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2004 20:23:29 -0600
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Why not do it as a petition?
_________________________________________________________________
Find great local high-speed Internet access value at the MSN High-Speed
Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, based on the stuff on the web site, the press release is from
Sonoma, CA and the testing is being done in CA too. I wish they were
in Phoenix but probably just invoking the legend of the firebird.
--- bobrice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Gees! Isn't it in Phoenix?? Silly question I would think, but ya
> never
> know, I didn't check for a real time address in the Web site. Or are
> they
> alludeing to rising from the asches thing, a Phoenix-ian thing?They
> could be
> in Orcnazie, Japan<g> Or Grovers Mills, NJ. Or Speonk NY? Hope it
> comes out
> that they really ARE in Phoenix so ya can check them out. If they are
> real
> EV'ers they would welcome the interest.
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Guys,
The name of the company is "Phoenix Environmental Motors". The Phonenix
reference is for the bird, which rises anew from the ashes. The actual
location is up in Clear Lake, California.
-Ed Thorpe
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--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone know if the S-10 transmission engine mounting hole pattern
is used on any other vehicles?
To keep the next conversion a little easier I'd like to be able to use
the existing motor adapter/clutch kits already developed for the S-10
(ie Canadian Electric Vehicles). But I'm wondering if I can look at
anything besides an S-10 as the donor vehicle, like Nissan or Toyota. Or
are the tranny's themselves are interchangeable so can stick an S-10
tranny in a different body, without having to design custom adapters?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
You don't want to introduce any gas under the brushes. CO2 will dissasociate
in an arc and release heat as it recombines, that's why they use it in the
smaller MIG welders. One thing that is meant to dramatically reduce brush
wear and arcing is spiral grooving the commutator. It's similar to the idea
behind grooved brake disks. The groove 'sweeps' the current across the face
of the brush and utilises the area better.
Cedric went to silver loaded brushes in high performance versions of his
motor. There is an intrinsic voltage drop through the copper oxide layer on
the comm (the chocholate brown layer). This made a large efficiency
difference at low voltages. Silver brushes eliminate this oxide layer and
therefore the voltage drop. The down side is that the copper oxide acts as a
low friction surface and brush and commutator wear is increased without it.
A similar effect is seen in low humidity conditions like aircraft and cold
stores. To cope with this Molybdenem Disulphide is added to the brushes.
Cedric was able to break the 90% efficiency barrier at 24v with these
brushes.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A good example Joe, and a good end run around the point.
I think you have managed to state the point even more clearly this way :-)
Point of course being that mechanical shock and vibration can lead to part
fatigue and breakage.
I would still maintain that a wire or cable _run_ or _length_ as per my
original statement would of course be stranded.
Joe Smalley wrote:
Check out a 30 year old GMC Starter.
There is a copper conductor from the load side of the solenoid to the input
terminal of the starter motor.
It IS insulated and
it IS a single strand conductor and
it IS on an OEM vehicle.
The reason they do this is to support the end of the solenoid so it is less
likely to vibrate loose.
I have seen other applications, but the longest I recall is about 6 inches.
In all cases, the rod is there to mechanically hold up a part to keep it
from breaking or falling off. They make it out of copper to reduce the
heating and losses as a conductor. They insulate it to help keep debris
from
shorting the power to chassis ground and possibly causing a fire.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:28 PM
Subject: RE: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
>
> Myles Twete wrote:
>
> >Moral of the story:
> >1) don't use solid core wire for flexible
> >cable runs if you can help it.
>
> After 25+ years of working on vehicles/vessels my rule of thumb is to
> _never_ use solid core wiring on a vehicle/vessel.
>
> (or anything that moves)
>
> Show me _one_ OEM vehicle with an insulated single strand of wire run.
>
> I don't think I need my flame shield for this, I suspect this is a given
> :-)
>
> The more strands the better...
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
Updated!
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Create your own personal Web page with the info you use most, at My MSN.
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200364ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Weathers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 09, 2004 10:24 PM
Subject: Re: Sparrow reborn
> >
> > At least they are planning to offer a different motor. If they choose
> > it
> > well, an AC system is a quick way to solve the ADC motor problems they
> > had
> > in the earlier versions of the car.
>
> How alarming! I bought one of the Sparrow motors (ADC part number
> 203-06-4004) for my EV. What was wrong with them?
>
> From reading the list, I had gotten the impression that Sparrows tended
> to kill their batteries. I hadn't heard anything about motor problems.
>
Corbin Motors did indeed build prototypes of Sparrows with AC drive systems.
If my memory serves me well there were two of them built in the summer of
2002. Corbin's web site described the effort and said that the AC drive
system
performed very well. I haven't heard a thing since and still wonder how
well
they indeed did perform and what became of the AC Sparrows.
Some of the ADC motors, perhaps all ot them, came from the factory with
no brush advance which caused serious motor problems. Corbin ignored the
advice and pleas of experienced EVers like Rich Rudman to advance the
brushes.
Some owners did advance the brushes or have someone do it for them.
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