EV Digest 3352
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Sparrow reborn
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: death of a DCP raptor
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AllTrax Controller Experience
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Which Hawker battery in Electricar Dolphin systems?
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Sparrow reborn, in Phoenix???
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Which Hawker battery in Electricar Dolphin systems?
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Massive cycle life improvement for Liion?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo? (regen charger)
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Which Hawker battery in Electricar Dolphin systems?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: anyone EVER fried a zilla?
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Toyota Prius advert
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Is this mad? (Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: anyone EVER fried a zilla?
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Did I torch my new old EV meter?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Wife driving the electric...
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Carbon pile?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Did I Sparrow my Raptor?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Damon, I have no Altrax experience, but that will probably be the next step
also on my 48 V motorcycle. (you're my inspiration :-). I think 200A is
about right for a snappy start. I currently have a 12/24/36/48v contactor
controller. Starting at 24 volts gives a 210 A peak. My sprocket ratio is
16/38. Top speed at 48v is 50 mph (195A). I only use 12v for puttering
around in parking lots.
Is there some kind of ramp limit that you can adjust on the Curtis? Mark T.
> I think that to get the off the line performance that I
> want I will need to be able to hit the motor with about 200 amps. My
Curtis
> seems to want to work it's way slowly up to 100 then 150 then 200 amps.
> Once it is at about 150 and I am rolling at about 20 mph I like the way it
> pulls, it just takes too much time to get there. I'm assuming that the
> Alltrax will give me all this current as soon as I tell it to go. Is this
> correct?
>
> I know I could change my gearing, but that cuts into my top end too much.
I
> want to be quick, fast and strong and all on only 48 volts. The only way
I
> can see to get all this is with a very stout controller.
>
> thanks
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
> overload! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope, nothing adjustable. I suppose if you knew how you could take it apart
and change it, but I would rather leave it as is. I have a feeling that
even with the slow start problem taken care of I would eventually burn it up
with the mix of freeway and hills I want to throw at it. Better to save it
for a lighter weight project. Right now I am toting around 224 pounds of
Ni-cads and 250 pounds of me.
Is there some kind of ramp limit that you can adjust on the Curtis? Mark
T.
_________________________________________________________________
Let the advanced features & services of MSN Internet Software maximize your
online time. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200363ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm confused (again). My ADC has an insulating ring inside the end bell
that the brush holders attach to. The ring attaches to the end bell. Would
it be easier to drill a new set of holes in this insulating ring, rather
than drill the case? Mark T.
> If they're not, then you have to make them.
> The cases are *really* hard stuff too --- one tap broke in the process
> (the last picture of the set). All that said, the hardest part about it
> was getting the motor out and noting where everything was. Once you have
> the motor free, it's just uncap the ends, pull the case off, drill and
> tap the holes 3/4" in the right direction and put it all back together.
>
> --
> Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
> > Now, if the big AC and DC motors are coupled to each other and uncoupled
> > from the wheels, they could perhaps be used as a motor-generator for
> > battery charging. This could provide a high-power charger for very
> > little additional cost and weight (since the big expensive parts are
> > already in the car).
>
> Wouldn't it make more sense to use the incoming AC to drive the series
> wound DC motor and use the AC motor with it's nice integrated regen to
> charge the batteries?
>
> Granted you will have some problems with eddy currents in the DC motor
> since the stator doesn't have laminations, but at the reduced power
> levels this shouldn't be much of a problem.
> This way you don't have to worry about trying to get regen from a series
> wound motor and the accompanying problems with brush advance etc.
>
Is it just me, or are we going in circles? Drive a DC motor with AC power
to turn an AC generator to charge DC batteries? Definitely out of the box
thinking. Why not just put the AC power directly into the AC controller and
skip the motor-generator step altogether? Mark T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The new SepEx Alltrax controller has been talked about more over on the
Elec-Trak list (as a special ElecTrak version will be available).
Basic features discussed:
300 and 400 amp version, size of a Curtis 1204
maybe a 500 amp version, size of a 1205 (haven't heard much on this
recently?)
max current is adjustable (not sure if this is battery or motor side?)
adjustable ramp up/down rate
adjustable min/max battery pack voltage limits
regular version has 30 amp field current max; ET version optimized for
~1/10 that.
So the 300 amp version with the ramp-up rate set fast might your
requirements.
(If I say nice things about the Axe which I don't even have yet, maybe
they will be nice to my Raptor :-)
damon henry wrote:
I am about to take the plunge and buy a new Alltrax controller. I have
been thinking about it for almost a year, but wanted to try a different
gear ratio first just to be sure. I have finally done that test, and am
not satisfied with the results. So before I lay out my hard earned cash
I would like to hear of some first hand experience with these controllers.
I have two main issues and they both have to do with how high I have my
bike geared. The first is very lazy off the line acceleration, and the
second is lack of pull up hills. It seems to me that both these can be
fixed with more current, and I am assuming that an Alltrax will pull
alot harder then my Curtis 1204. I think that to get the off the line
performance that I want I will need to be able to hit the motor with
about 200 amps. My Curtis seems to want to work it's way slowly up to
100 then 150 then 200 amps. Once it is at about 150 and I am rolling at
about 20 mph I like the way it pulls, it just takes too much time to get
there. I'm assuming that the Alltrax will give me all this current as
soon as I tell it to go. Is this correct?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim and All,
Speaking of dead purple boxes, I just got off the phone with DCP, as I had
shipped the RX-7's T-Rex back to them recently for a postmortem. Bad news
(it's dead Jim), the power stage is fried and they are no longer geared up
to repair them. Major bummer. So, I either try to get a used T-Rex, or a
used Raptor which would require three less batteries (I ran it with the S10
Raptor during the truck upgrade and I didn't like the reduced range and
power!), keeping in mind that if I kill another DCP I won't have any
support, or talk to Otmar. And with a kid starting collage this Fall, that
might be a financial problem!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Officer with the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and racer with The National Electric Drag Racing
Association
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, for the 15 year-old daughter?)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:22:47 -0500
>From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: death of a DCP raptor
>
>The short version is that I have now learned that even basic flooded GC
>batteries can kill a big DCP Raptor, and that full support is no longer
>provided for these controllers. So other DCP owners be warned & be nice
>to your controllers!
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure were the SepEx stuff got started, but I have a straight DC
series would motor, so the controllers that they already have in production
is what I am looking at and wondering about. Perhaps I will be the first on
the list to try one of these out.
damon
From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: AllTrax Controller Experienc
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2004 23:13:16 -0500
The new SepEx Alltrax controller has been talked about more over on the
Elec-Trak list (as a special ElecTrak version will be available).
Basic features discussed:
300 and 400 amp version, size of a Curtis 1204
maybe a 500 amp version, size of a 1205 (haven't heard much on this
recently?)
max current is adjustable (not sure if this is battery or motor side?)
adjustable ramp up/down rate
adjustable min/max battery pack voltage limits
regular version has 30 amp field current max; ET version optimized for
~1/10 that.
So the 300 amp version with the ramp-up rate set fast might your
requirements.
(If I say nice things about the Axe which I don't even have yet, maybe they
will be nice to my Raptor :-)
damon henry wrote:
I am about to take the plunge and buy a new Alltrax controller. I have
been thinking about it for almost a year, but wanted to try a different
gear ratio first just to be sure. I have finally done that test, and am
not satisfied with the results. So before I lay out my hard earned cash I
would like to hear of some first hand experience with these controllers.
I have two main issues and they both have to do with how high I have my
bike geared. The first is very lazy off the line acceleration, and the
second is lack of pull up hills. It seems to me that both these can be
fixed with more current, and I am assuming that an Alltrax will pull alot
harder then my Curtis 1204. I think that to get the off the line
performance that I want I will need to be able to hit the motor with about
200 amps. My Curtis seems to want to work it's way slowly up to 100 then
150 then 200 amps. Once it is at about 150 and I am rolling at about 20
mph I like the way it pulls, it just takes too much time to get there.
I'm assuming that the Alltrax will give me all this current as soon as I
tell it to go. Is this correct?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
_________________________________________________________________
Plan your next US getaway to one of the super destinations here.
http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
oops. I read something too fast.
the adjustable ramp up time and a 300 amp series Alltrax she still be a
nice fit... be the first to report how they work!
damon henry wrote:
I'm not sure were the SepEx stuff got started, but I have a straight DC
series wound motor, so the controllers that they already have in
production is what I am looking at and wondering about. Perhaps I will
be the first on the list to try one of these out.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Thomasson wrote:
> Is it just me, or are we going in circles? Drive a DC motor with AC power
> to turn an AC generator to charge DC batteries? Definitely out of the box
> thinking. Why not just put the AC power directly into the AC controller and
> skip the motor-generator step altogether? Mark T.
That's correct Mark, I was about to ask the same:
Since AC motors offer all the advantages of DC ones + more,
I can't see what AC-DC combo can possibly buy. Why not just
use AC system for driving AND regen AND charging? Beats me.
Anyone?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Damon,
Last fall I played with John Bidwell's El Chopper ET Honda Rebel
motorcycle conversion. It had a 48V pack connected to an Etek motor via
a 400A Alltrax (4844) controller.
The Alltrax throttle curve can be adjusted via software. Pick one of the
presets or define your own. Bidwell chose a progressive response and
that felt perfect.
How stout is the controller? Well, the hottest the Alltrax ever got was
86 degrees F. That was after an extended 16 mile trip at full throttle!
The acceleration was brisk despite all the hulking batteries. 0 - 50 in
about 8 seconds, with 0 - 30 in about 4 seconds. The gearing (12 front,
54 rear) limited top end to around 50mph. With a 15 front sprocket it
would have gone 60mph.
The controller can't take all the credit here. There was an entire
system at work, but the controller was a big part of the success.
You can read about it here...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?cat=6&dismode=article&arti
d=49
Hope this helps,
-Dave Stensland
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of damon henry
Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 2:56 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: AllTrax Controller Experienc
I am about to take the plunge and buy a new Alltrax controller. I have
been
thinking about it for almost a year, but wanted to try a different gear
ratio first just to be sure. I have finally done that test, and am not
satisfied with the results. So before I lay out my hard earned cash I
would
like to hear of some first hand experience with these controllers.
I have two main issues and they both have to do with how high I have my
bike
geared. The first is very lazy off the line acceleration, and the
second is
lack of pull up hills. It seems to me that both these can be fixed with
more current, and I am assuming that an Alltrax will pull alot harder
then
my Curtis 1204. I think that to get the off the line performance that I
want I will need to be able to hit the motor with about 200 amps. My
Curtis
seems to want to work it's way slowly up to 100 then 150 then 200 amps.
Once it is at about 150 and I am rolling at about 20 mph I like the way
it
pulls, it just takes too much time to get there. I'm assuming that the
Alltrax will give me all this current as soon as I tell it to go. Is
this
correct?
I know I could change my gearing, but that cuts into my top end too
much. I
want to be quick, fast and strong and all on only 48 volts. The only
way I
can see to get all this is with a very stout controller.
thanks
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Choose now from 4 levels of MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - no more account
overload! http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, newbie here with a couple questions about the US Electricar/Hughes AC
system in a Geo Prizm. Which Hawker Genesis model did they use, and are
they still available? Even if they are available, what might be used
instead to increase range (without taking up much more space, if any)?
I'm also wondering if anyone has experience with the range of this
vehicle/system. Electricar spec'd 60-65 miles in mixed driving, I've heard
30 to 35. I'm hoping for more than 60, or a comfortable 60 (for the
batteries).
If I should search archives or ask this somewhere else, just tell me.
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > Guys,
> >
> > The name of the company is "Phoenix Environmental Motors". The Phonenix
> > reference is for the bird, which rises anew from the ashes. The actual
> > location is up in Clear Lake, California.
> >
> > -Ed Thorpe
> >
> > Ok. like Rennasanse Motors was the " Rebirth '" of Sebring-Vanguard
Citi-car. Another better and valiant try for Bob Beaumont.What EVer and
WHERE ever it is....Good Luck!See some Manzanita green ones in CT
someday<g>!
Bob
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> Wouldn't it make more sense to use the incoming AC to drive the series
> wound DC motor and use the AC motor with it's nice integrated regen to
> charge the batteries?
First, you would have to rectify the AC to provide pulsating DC. If you
tried to use a series traction motor as a 'universal' motor (run it
directly on AC), the non-laminated iron field structure would get very
hot.
Second, the power factor would be rather poor.
> This way you don't have to worry about trying to get regen from a
> series wound motor and the accompanying problems with brush advance
> etc.
I wouldn't try to get regen from a straight series DC motor. I'd use a
shunt or compound wound DC motor. Since the charging power is likely to
be fairly small compared to the motor's normal horsepower, the shunt
field could be small and perhaps added to an existing series motor.
Likewise, brush arcing problems won't be too bad because you are running
the motor at (relatively) low current. Also, you may want to run the DC
motor in reverse, so the brush advance reverses to suit the reversed
current flow.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Thomasson wrote:
> Is it just me, or are we going in circles? Drive a DC motor with
> AC power to turn an AC generator to charge DC batteries? Definitely
> out of the box thinking. Why not just put the AC power directly into
> the AC controller and skip the motor-generator step altogether?
Yes, you can use an AC controller (inverter) as a battery charger. AC
Propulsion has done it. However, there are problems:
1. The AC powerline is very noisy, and has incredible transients
and surges. AC vehicle controllers aren't built to withstand such
conditions. (They could be, but that would make them even more
expensive!)
2. The inverter is not isolated. Your batteries would be 'hot' to the
AC line during charging.
3. You still need big inductors to filter the inverter's PWM. (AC
Propulsion uses the traction motor's windings as these inductors
during charging).
4. AC controllers are not designed to work this way. This is in
theory a 'minor' problem (the engineers could reprogram it to work).
However, most AC controllers are so heavily specialized that it
has become almost impossible to modify or adapt them to do
something different without extremely expensive design changes.
If I were able to design an EV to be mass-produced at a low price, I
think the best solution would be to design the motor to be a rotary
converter. This is a single motor with both AC *and* DC windings. It
provides a high-power isolated way to convert sinewave AC to DC and vice
versa at high efficiency. You'd normally use an inverter to do this.
But, if you already need a large motor, you might as well put it to work
during charging. It can provide the power conversion and isolation.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry,
The Geo Prizm used/uses the Hawker Genesis 26Ah batteries (26EP).
Actually Hawker is now part of EnerSys. You can look up more
information about the batteries at
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
Due to the battery's unique size (aprox. 6.5"Wx7"Lx5"H), you'll be hard
pressed to find another battery that will fit in the Prizm battery
tray. If you look hard you will be able to find these batteries for
about $85-90/each in quantities of 50 or more. You can also get new
"surplus" batteries for less than $50/each at
http://surplusev.com/
I've bought batteries from them before, and so has Chris Zach, and I
would say that we have had good luck with them so far.
As far as extending the range on these vehicles, take a look at a
recent thread ("Bit more range...").
I think the 60-65mile range was a bit optimistic. I would say that
45-50 miles would be a more reasonable range. You may be able to go 60
on fresh set of batteries, but you would be discharging them close to
100%, which would decrease their life significantly. I get about 30
miles range with a battery pack that consists of 20 10-year old
batteries and 30 newer batteries that were rated at about 70-80%
capacity. Cold weather can also significantly reduce your range.
If you want more information about this car (and its batteries), you
can look at the USElectricar_EV yahoo group, where this vehicle is
discussed more in depth:
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar_ev/
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 11, 2004, at 11:32 PM, Jerry McIntire wrote:
Hi, newbie here with a couple questions about the US Electricar/Hughes
AC
system in a Geo Prizm. Which Hawker Genesis model did they use, and
are
they still available? Even if they are available, what might be used
instead to increase range (without taking up much more space, if any)?
I'm also wondering if anyone has experience with the range of this
vehicle/system. Electricar spec'd 60-65 miles in mixed driving, I've
heard
30 to 35. I'm hoping for more than 60, or a comfortable 60 (for the
batteries).
If I should search archives or ask this somewhere else, just tell me.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here are some links to more data on this work and a couple of news
articles on this team:
http://www.cmt.anl.gov/science-technology/batteries/default.shtml
http://www.cmt.anl.gov/awards/SciAm50.shtml
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000E18BE-3623-1FAC-
B62383414B7F0000
http://www.suntimes.com/output/zinescene/cst-fin-ecol21.html
http://www.anl.gov/OPA/news03/news031110.htm
The development of this high-power lithium battery is one of the
innovations that led to Khalil Amine's designation as a 2003
Scientific American 50 research leader in automotive technology. The
cell chemistry is safer and costs less than previous cell
chemistries. Amine's team also developed the cell chemistry for a
remarkable battery suitable for use in implantable medical devices.
Khalil Amine of the U.S. Department of Energy's Argonne National
Laboratory has been named by Scientific American magazine as one of
top 50 research leaders of 2003. The Scientific American 50 are
recognized for their outstanding leadership and capability in helping
to make technology a constructive force for people and societies
around the world.
Under Argonne's Electrochemical Technology Program, Amine leads a
team of scientists and engineers in the development of advanced
lithium battery materials and cell chemistries for emerging
applications. One important application is hybrid electric vehicles.
Amine's team has developed a high-power lithium manganese spinel
based cell chemistry that costs less than previous cell chemistries
proposed for this use, and is safer.
The team's work on other high-energy chemistries, a lithium-iron
phosphate and a lithium manganese nickel system, led to a long-life,
safer battery suitable for use in implantable medical devices,
satellite and military applications. Other groundbreaking
developments include a ceramic titanate anode material, siloxane-
based polymers, and electrolyte additives that reduce gas formation
and enhance safety and performance. Eleven patents are pending on
this work.
Scientific American editor-in-chief John Rennie said that the
magazine "is in the business of encouraging the progressive use of
technology to make a better future for people around the world. Every
year we watch how certain individuals and organizations play pivotal
roles in directing that future�s emergence. The Scientific American
50 is our chance to shine a light on these incredibly deserving
leaders in research, industry and policy."
Selected by the magazine�s Board of Editors with the help of
distinguished outside advisors, the Scientific American 50 cites
research, business and policy leaders in many technological
categories, including agriculture, chemicals and materials,
communications, computing, energy, environment, medical treatments
and more.
According to Jim Miller, director of Argonne's Electrochemical
Technology Program, scientists such as Amine have made Argonne a
leader in advanced battery development. "Khalil Amine is known
internationally for his innovations in battery chemistry," said
Miller. "He and his team are a tremendous asset to the program, and
one of the reasons Argonne is known everywhere as the �go to� place
for leading-edge battery R&D."
Harvey Drucker, Associate Laboratory Director for Energy and
Environmental Science and Technology, agrees. "We've set out to
recruit the best for our Electrochemical Technology Program and
Khalil Amine is a prime example."
Amine is head of the Technology Development group in the Battery
Technology Department within Argonne's Chemical Engineering Division.
He received his Ph.D. in Materials Science from the University of
Bordeaux, France, in 1989 and has studied various aspects of new
materials for next-generation batteries throughout his career. Before
joining Argonne in 1998, Amine led research projects in the research
arms of public and private organizations and universities, including
the Japan Storage Battery Company, the Osaka National Research
Institute, and Kyoto University. His work has resulted in 48 patents
and more than 200 publications.
Advances in these areas and others are continuing under Amine's
leadership. Argonne conducts many of its research projects in
collaboration with other organizations, including universities,
industrial firms, and other federal laboratories, and has
intellectual property available for licensing.
Amine�s group performs research and development for hybrid electric
vehicle applications under the U.S. Department of Energy�s FreedomCAR
and Vehicle Technologies Program.
For More Information
* Researcher's wheels turning on battery for hybrid cars (Chicago
Sun-Times)
* Argonne Researcher Named to Scientific American "Top 50" List
(Argonne National Laboratory news release)
* More on Electrochemical Technology Program Battery R&D
* Battery development for medical applications
Contact the Chemical Technology Division Business Development and
Communications Office (630-252-1858, [EMAIL PROTECTED]).
--------------------------------------
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour voicemail - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In general we don't have electrical service to charge as quickly as we
might like, so if one were to step down the AC voltage throught a ~1:2
isolation transformer, then that should help protect the inverter. Any
charging current is going to be low compared to normal driving current
peaks because of the service limitation, so the inverter should handle
it. So that addresses #2 and some (most?) of #1 This is assuming you
are stepping ~200-230 down to half that and have a 300+V traction pack.
#3 Depending on the charging current, the inductors might not be too
large. It might be possible to wind your own?
#4 Is sort of case by case, might be additional SW and HW...
Seth
AKA "the cynic"
"the other Seth"
"I lost on eBay too"
"Lee Hart ASCII art fan club member #47"
On Feb 12, 2004, at 3:57 AM, Lee Hart wrote:
Mark Thomasson wrote:
Is it just me, or are we going in circles? Drive a DC motor with
AC power to turn an AC generator to charge DC batteries? Definitely
out of the box thinking. Why not just put the AC power directly into
the AC controller and skip the motor-generator step altogether?
Yes, you can use an AC controller (inverter) as a battery charger. AC
Propulsion has done it. However, there are problems:
1. The AC powerline is very noisy, and has incredible transients
and surges. AC vehicle controllers aren't built to withstand such
conditions. (They could be, but that would make them even more
expensive!)
2. The inverter is not isolated. Your batteries would be 'hot' to the
AC line during charging.
3. You still need big inductors to filter the inverter's PWM. (AC
Propulsion uses the traction motor's windings as these inductors
during charging).
4. AC controllers are not designed to work this way. This is in
theory a 'minor' problem (the engineers could reprogram it to work).
However, most AC controllers are so heavily specialized that it
has become almost impossible to modify or adapt them to do
something different without extremely expensive design changes.
If I were able to design an EV to be mass-produced at a low price, I
think the best solution would be to design the motor to be a rotary
converter. This is a single motor with both AC *and* DC windings. It
provides a high-power isolated way to convert sinewave AC to DC and
vice
versa at high efficiency. You'd normally use an inverter to do this.
But, if you already need a large motor, you might as well put it to
work
during charging. It can provide the power conversion and isolation.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Basically what Alex said with a few minor thoughts:
Due to the battery's unique size (aprox. 6.5"Wx7"Lx5"H), you'll be hard
pressed to find another battery that will fit in the Prizm battery tray.
Well, there are Gel-cell batteries that have the same size. Do not use
them. They will not be able to handle the very high discharge rates
needed in an electric car. Go for the Hawkers.
If you look hard you will be able to find these batteries for about
$85-90/each in quantities of 50 or more. You can also get new "surplus"
batteries for less than $50/each at
http://surplusev.com/
I've bought these too. Nice guy actually...
I think the 60-65mile range was a bit optimistic. I would say that 45-50
miles would be a more reasonable range. You may be able to go 60 on
fresh set of batteries, but you would be discharging them close to 100%,
which would decrease their life significantly. I get about 30 miles
range with a battery pack that consists of 20 10-year old batteries and
30 newer batteries that were rated at about 70-80% capacity. Cold
weather can also significantly reduce your range.
60 mile range was on a flat track, car goes up to 50mph and stays there
non-stop. Not anything like normal real driving.
I've taken my car with 50 new batteries 45 miles *MAX*. Even at that the
pack was into the final 20% of it's capacity. Figure 30 miles range and
you will be in business.
Chris
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Well, the fact that he DID choose this frequency means I could actually own
one on the future. I have a condition called "shifted" hearing. I can't
hear
squat in the low frequency band, but I can hear sounds up to about 23kHtz,
so I for one like this choice.
There are some buildings with ultra-sonic motion detectors that I have to
leave. They give me a migraine.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new
discoveries, is not Eureka! (I found it!) but rather, 'hmm.... that's
funny...'. - Isaac Asimov
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Rod Hower
> Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2004 6:53 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: anyone EVER fried a zilla?
>
>
> The Z2K gate drives go from zero to 70
> amps 30,000 times a second.
>
> Otmar,
> Just curious why you went with 30khz switching
> when 20khz is not audible. This introduces additional
> switching losses for the IGBT's.
> You're a pretty smart guy, so I'm sure there is a
> reason. I am interested as a control designer why
> you chose this frequency.
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
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I wrote an email to point out that the wording of their advert for the Prius was
a bit misleading in places, and that I thought the Prius should be marketed on
its true merits, rather than bashing EVs. I got this reply:
[..]
Further to your inquiry, there have been some changes to the wording on
the Toyota Prius Advertisement.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/prius/environment/
in 6th para
Last sentence
"In fact the electrical motor is entirely self-charging, creating the
energy from the car's motion, so you never have to plug the car into
the mains, as with some older electrical cars. "
changed to
"In fact the electric motor is self-charging, creating energy from
the car's motion, so you never have to plug the car into the mains,
as with some older fully electrical cars. "
[..]
Oh well, you've got to try..
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--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You can have Golf Tech rebuild your curtis
> controller without the
> ramp-up (hi pot?).
Is it possible to get rid of that horribly current
ramp ?
I had to replace that pot once already because it
failed mechanically, so the controller has already
been opened up and I know where to look for the
current ramp pot. Can i just replace it with a lower
(or higher) ohm resistor ?
Does one of you guys who has reverse engineered this
controller know what it would take to eliminate (or
atleast steepen) the current ramp ? Or is it an
inherent limit of the controller ?
Otmar, if you tell me how to do this, I promise that
when i save $2k i will buy a Z1k :)
thanks
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
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Well, at least he only said "slightly" mad...
I've been thinking about this AC (on LiIon) and DC (on AGM) hybrid drive
system. Reasons I see for an AC/DC traction combo:
- Use of multiple motors is nothing new.
- The *available* DC motors happen to have a tail shaft making it easy
to hang a second motor/generator off the end (Lovejoy coupler??). The
*available* AC motors don't have tail shafts, requiring gears and
belts/chains to use in multiples.
- *Available* DC-only systems >96 volts can't provide regen.
- A series DC motor plus generator can provide regen, but no such
generator system is *available* so would require custom design and controls.
- The *available* AC drives don't have near the peak power of the
*available* DC drives. ie AC drive (Siemens) 18-45 KW nominal with 78 KW
peak, versus DC drive (with Zilla) 18-20 KW nominal, 150-250+ KW peak
(think GP).
- AC/DC combo works out economically when used with a LiIon (or other
advanced chemistry) battery pack and an AGM pack. The traction motor
combo eliminates the need for a large charger (monster dc/dc) between
the battery packs offsetting much of the cost of the AC system.
So, until advanced chemistry batteries come along that can delivery the
high power peaks of AGMs and/or until AC drive systems with high peak
power come along, I'm liking this AC/DC combo idea. The key is that this
idea is trying to make a vehicle that has 'everything' using *available*
parts.
How crazy is it?
(and note I said nothing about using the motor pair as a charger... that
debate is the other thread :-)
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Since AC motors offer all the advantages of DC ones + more,
> I can't see what AC-DC combo can possibly buy. Why not just
> use AC system for driving AND regen AND charging? Beats me.
>
> Anyone?
Lee Hart wrote:
It begins with the (slighly mad) idea that one has an EV with an AC
traction motor/controller *and* a second DC traction motor/controller,
making it an AC/DC hybrid. It thus has an AC drive for efficiency when
cruising, and a DC drive for fast accelleration.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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Hi Otmar,
Thanks for such a lengthly and interesting response. This motor
control stuff is really cool and I'm glad you like sharing some of your
expertise. Just one question,
...Gate drives are basically a mini controller in themselves. The Z2K
gate drives go from zero to 70 amps 30,000 times a second. And they
have to get the signal to all the IGBTs within nanoseconds of each
other.
where do the 70 amps go? Seems like an awful lot of current just for
driving gates. Then again I don't know too much about this...thanks
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
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.
>
> Same for me. I basically agree with your point; that stranded wire
> should be used if there is any chance that the wire will flex or bend.
> But the way you phrased your question encouraged me to think of
> counterexamples -- and thinking is always good!
Lee when I see my wife standing on the back porch watching me work on a EV I
know she's thinking and I have an idea what she's thinking and it's never
( hardly ever ) good!
yesterday I had this same thing happen to my e-meter , it reads -275 amps
when it should be 0 charging will bring it to -255 and driving will go
form -275 to -511 . I'll check the fuses today .I use the pig tail fuses (
soldered in ) as I've had the fuse holders get a little corroded after a
while ,
New e-meter owners remember
1 don't let any e meter wires touch the frame ( any leakage current form
batteries to frame will find its way through the meter. )
2 don't disconect any batteries while e meter in line
3 put a plug on the meter so you can easly unplug the meter ( then you can
do 1 and 2 )
--
> "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
> world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
I like the new saying here Lee , it sure say what we're about , but now I'm
wondering , was there something before "ring the bell that ...." ?
Steve clunn
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
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Warning, whining ahead...
Ok, my nerves are running a bit taut today. The wife is driving the
Prizm around town because the van's brake lines are toast.
I hope she doesn't totally kill the batteries. I hope she remembered to
take the parking brake off...
Oh well: The pack is a year old and I am way too gentle on it anyways.
Maybe some rough love would help to perk it up.
I hate the cold. Half to one third range is *annoying*.
Chris
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I came upon an automotive alternator tester headed for the trash... the
control panel with pretty meters and such is now in my basement.
It includes some sort of stack of gray discs that get squished together
tighter as the "load" control knob is turned up. Is this a 'carbon pile'
that I have heard referred to in the past?
The meter goes up to 300 amps... if this is a carbon pile, what are it's
likely limits? How long can it be under load?
Picture of the potential carbon pile:
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/tester_carbon.jpg
and of the complete tester unit:
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/tester_front.jpg
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/tester_back.jpg
The rest of the tester consisted of a case with a 220 VAC motor inside
with a pulley and belt to spin the alternator under test.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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With the truck dead in a sloped driveway it is rather hard to get under
to see much, but from what I can tell one set of brushes look OK, and a
second set is probably also OK. The other two sets are impossible to see
until I get it up on a lift (which rather requires it be drivable)
and/or pull out batteries from above.
The one set I have a decent view of:
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/brushes.jpg
Rich Rudman wrote:
Do you have any idea how your brushes look???? they still there???
Springs all ok??? all free to move, nothing sticking???? Any brush leads
purple???
There are reasons good silicon decides to check out....Knowing them
leads to tougher drives.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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