EV Digest 3359
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Fw: Charging batteries with negative voltage
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Vacuum Pump Switch
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Battery Characteristics Was: Edan 100Ah cells & New ethanol reformer
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hawkers #s vs Deka #s
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cheap magnachargers on eBay
by "Diana Trevino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Hawkers #s vs Deka #s
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Hawkers #s vs Deka #s
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Cheap magnachargers on eBay
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) OT, Re: Generator engine
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hawkers #s vs Deka #s
by "Gary Graunke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Charger efficiency
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Charger efficiency
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Ebay EV
by Robert Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Charger efficiency
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Charger efficiency
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Trimuter (was: Ebay EV)
by Sam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: OT, Re: Generator engine
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Charger efficiency
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Charger efficiency
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) DCP Conformal coating and moisture Was: Conformal (Re: anyone
EVER fried a zilla?)
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: Charging batteries with negative voltage
>
>
> > Hi David, Roland and Others,
> (snipped)
> >
> >
> > If we read the voltage from battery no.1 which is the positive end to
> > battery no.4 which is the negative end, you should read 48 VDC.
> >
> >
>
> I had estimated pretty much the same when I looked at the unit, but the
> current rating difference on the -24 volt (being lower than the +24 volt
> output made me hesitant to try using it out of fear of the unknown. My
best
> guess was that there are gaps in negative voltage regulator IC's. Not as
> many seem to be available at the same spec ratings as positive voltage
> regulators.
> If this is a voltage regulated supply, as it appears to be, it seems that
> it should have adjustment pots inside that could be carefully peaked
equally
> for charging a 48 volt pack, which means opening it up for a higher output
> voltage on each regulator circuit.
>
>
>
> > If you want to used two 24 VDC volt sources from a battery pack, you
just
> > connect of the first two batteries for one circuit and the next two
> > batteries for the other circuit.
> >
> > If it is a power supply that has a grounded common point, you may have
to
> > disconnect the common point from the ground.
> > Roland
> >
>
> That's going to be the next point of investigation on this monster. The
> power supply doesn't have any marked terminals, just a pig tail of wires
> that were hacked off squarely, as in any good salvage slash-n-run project.
> I'll have my digital voltmeter with me next time. That is one of the few
> common tools I DIDN'T take with me the first time.
>
> Even if we determine that we can't charge a 48 volt pack, this would
surely
> make one heck of a rapid charging station for the 24 volt imported
> scooters!!! Might be able to charge 2 wide at once!! It's incredible to
see
> how much material goes into a real charger or power supply. There are 3 or
4
> large electrolytics on the board, has to be at least 40,000 Mfd each. The
> transformer must be around 30A, and explains why this thing weighs almost
> half as much as I do!!
> I'm looking forward to popping the case off this thing tomorrow to see
more
> details about what it's made of inside.
>
> Thanks for your input Roland!!
>
> Cheers,
> Rick
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In previous postings I had described my problems with the
VoltsRabbit vacuum pump switching system. I eventually gave up
on having power brakes, and drove the car without for several
years.
A few months ago I finally got around to setting up my new vacuum
system. Uses a modified VoltsRabbit vacuum reservoir (4 holes
instead of 2) and the same old pump (Thomas). But I bought KTA's
Square D switch, and found a bracket to mount it on in the engine
bay. I set the hysteresis to 10" (turn on) and 20" (turn off).
True, this switch is big, but it hasn't missed a beat in the
several months it's been going (in contrast, the VoltsRabbit
switch was the first thing to fail (within a few days) after
conversion back in 1994), and I notice no arcing nor significant
carbon buildup on the contacts. The switch gives a authoritative
clack when it switches, but that's ok. If at 20" vacuum, I can
get four-or-so brake pedal presses from this system before it
switches back on at 10".
The EVParts switch, while much less expensive and
smaller/lighter, appears to give about 4" hysteresis (from what
is mentioned below), which if all else is equal to mine, is
probably going to give you only one or two brake pedal presses
before switching back on.
More recently I got the air system muffler can installed. So now
that the pump exhaust is not blowing directly back at the
firewall, but rather goes through a 2 to 3 ft of tube and then
the can, which has an exhaust port pointed into a frame member at
the front of the car, the whole system is much quieter, and is a
low-level burble. The increased back pressure from the tight
turns just downstream of the pump's exhaust port does raise the
initial pump current to the 9-10A area from 8-9A, with current
dropping down to 6-7A by the time the system shuts down at 20".
Time to pump down doesn't seem to really increase measurably.
The actual time by the way is about 17s to go from atmospheric to
20" vacuum. I have not had any problems with this system falling
behind braking demands.
I've been meaning to ask on this list, though, a question about
caps, diodes and resistors. In previous posts we discussed which
of these you have to use to safely switch various loads. I have
two switching points for this vacuum pump. One is the Square D
switch, which while holding up well now, it might be better to
have the cap/diode/resistor treatment. The other switching point
that actually concerns me more is the key-switch relay
(Potter-Brumfeld coil relay), since this invariably is going to
close and then the pump immediately starts when I turn the car
on, having leaked down over 15-20 minutes. Can't really avoid
that. If the vacuum pump is running when I go to turn the car
off, I can wait and usually do now to save the key-switch relay,
but would rather not have to wait. (If this key-switch relay
mucks up ... :-( car no go... or sticks on, although I always
carry a spare :-) ). So my question, should I wire up a
cap/resistor across each switch to handle the turn-on, and then a
diode to avoid the inductive arc at turn-off, or can I just put
these components across, say, the pump itself? My thinking is
that I have guard each switch. I guess what I want is what's
been called a dry switching situation for the relay points to
handle.
Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://www.geocities.com/nbeaa
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 14, 2004 12:35 PM
Subject: Vacuum Pump Switch
>
> A couple of people have recently mentioned problems with vacuum
pump
> cycling....
>
> Scott Davis wrote:
>
> >The cutoff switch for the vacuum on the brakes isn't
operating. The
> >pump runs all the time. At first I figured it was because the
vacuum
> >lines were cracked. Replaced two of them, now it draws 26"
vacuum
> >but still doesn't shut off. I'll try replacing the switch,
unless
> >someone else has a bright idea.
>
> Chris Zach responded:
>
> >Yeah, I have this problem too. The switch is wired directly to
the pump
> >motor without benefit of a relay. Thus the vacuum switch
points stick
> >closed and open from time to time. On mine, when it does
switch it never
> >keeps *quite* enough vacuum which led to a scary stop while
waiting for it
> >to "pump up"
> >
> >I leave my pump on all the time while I figure this out.
>
>
> Everyone seems to like this switch-
>
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=&product_id=1577
>
> I have installed a few, and also sold them while working for
Roderick.
>
> >From the evparts item description-
>
> "This simple lightweight vacuum switch turns pump on
> only when needed. Adjustable vacuum setting. Has COM,
> NC and NO connections. The switch comes from the
> factory set with a cut off at 18 to 22 inches of mercury.
> The hysteresis is 15% to 20% of the 20 inches nominal
> so it's about 3 to 4 in/Hg"
>
> "Measures 2.25"L X 1.5"W X 1.5"H and weighs 0.8 oz."
>
> No separate relay needed, and they appear to be reliable over
time.
>
> Of course using a sizable vacuum reservoir will also help
reduce pump
> cycling (and provide additional quantity of available vacuum)
>
> HTH
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> Updated!
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>
_________________________________________________________________
> Check out the great features of the new MSN 9 Dial-up, with the
MSN Dial-up
> Accelerator.
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I have transfered some of the info I kept at my site into the
new Wiki thingee http://www.evtech.org/phpwiki/index.php/Batteries
which is an absolute breeze to use! I was hoping that some others
would follow suit and review what I've posed, add their own observations
and information and eventually we may have a good source to refer to
for all sorts of fun battery chemestry characteristics and properties!
Best of all, Anyone can update it at any time, so unlike other pages
it should never go stale or have bad information if we all participate!
ThanX Eric for the the (potentially) wonderfull resource.
L8r
Ryan
The kW numbers will probably be a bit lower for real world use, since
the V will drop at high current.
I don't know how much, but at the nominal current (1.5C) it will be a
bit, and at the max current (5C) it will be a lot.
So these Li-Ions at 2mOhms droping 1v at 500A is 2.7vpc
(I vaguely recall the GP team using about 8V as the voltage for a 12V
lead batt at max current)
That's 1.3vpc under a load.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gary Graunke wrote:
> I have about 101 Hawker 12V 38AH C10 Genesis batteries. They are about 33
> lbs each.
With respect to my numbers, I was going by the DOE EV America page for the
1995 Solectria E-10, http://avt.inel.gov/pdf/fsev/eva/sole1095.pdf The pdf
lists the Hawkers as weighing 16kg (~35lbs, not 64lbs as I had posted) with
a suffix of 10C instead of C10.
> The newer equivalent is the 12V GE42EP 42AH at C20, which weighs 32.9 lbs.
> So I'm pretty sure your figures are incorrect (also, just a nit, it is C10
> not 10C--C10 means 10 hours to discharge the rated capacity, while 10C at
> 38AH would be a 380 A discharge!).
Nitpick away. I should have gone deeper into verifying the information and
not embarass myself. I took it for granted that they would have the
nomenclature right.
>
> More to the point for EV usage is the shorter discharge capabilities
> (Peukert and all).
> The 42AH Hawker 60 minute discharge rate is 33.8A (or 33.8 AH total).
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/products/pdfs/0919.pdf lists the 1 hour (C1)
Deka 8G27 discharge rate as 57 amps for the 63 pound (28.7kg) battery.
>
> For my S10 pickup, this would mean going 33.8 mph for an hour, as it gets
> about 1 mile per AH real life efficiency in traffic, hills, etc., with a
> 312V (two strings of 26) pack.
Why two strings? Do you have a dual controller/motor combo as in the E-10?
> Since my pack is 10 years old, the most I
> have driven is 38 mi on a charge. However, with new batteries the claimed
> 40-60 mi range seems about right. Hawkers are great power batteries--I
have
> pulled 170A while going up a 6% grade for 3 minutes at 45 mph with the
5000
> lb truck. Also, they only lose about 1% per month. They can sit for years
if
> charged, but it is best to keep them on a float charge.
>
How many miles do you have on your pack?
> For my 2100 lb Insight with a temporary pack of 168V (one string of 14
> 12V38C10's),
> I'm taking about 168 Wh/mi at 35 mph, so again a steady 33.8 mph would get
> in theory use 33.8 AH in an hour. In practice I drive a bit faster, and 25
> miles would be pretty much the best case limit (maybe more if the
batteries
> weren't 10 years old).
>
> So the C1 rate is probably more realistic. The high power (low internal
> resistance) of the Hawkers and low self-discharge rate is very helpful.
> However, the specific energy seems to be very close at C20: 84AH for 66
lbs
> for 2 Hawkers vs Deka 86AH for 64 lbs.
I knew I had something in error and it was the conversion factor for
converting kg to lbs.
> However, if the C1 rate is 33.8AH for the Hawkers, this is a bit better
than
> the C2 (2 hour) 33AH rate that you calculated for the Dekas. In reality,
the
> C1 rate is more realistic, unless you have the ultimate Red Beastie-style
> lead sled (a pickup full of batteries).
So two of your Hawkers at a C1 rate of 67.6 AH should give better
acceleration than the Deka with a C1 rate of 57 Amps. I can see why you
have respect for the Hawkers.
Thanks for your quick reply.
Peter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just a very basic charger, non-isolated, non-automatic, just some 400 VDC to
charge the batterys in the two Electricars and see where we stand.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 7:09 PM
Subject: Re: Cheap magnachargers on eBay
> 400 VDC chargers are not as trivial to build as 120 VDC chargers.
>
> My effort turned into the PFC line of chargers at Manzanita Micro.
> You might take a look to get some ideas for what features you want to
> include.
>
> Are you trying to build a stationary or on board type?
> Does Isolation matter to you?
> How automatic do you want it to be?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Diana Trevino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 3:02 PM
> Subject: Re: Cheap magnachargers on eBay
>
>
> > I am trying to build
> > a 400 volt charger to charge the batteries directly.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my opinion, Deka 8G27s should do 50Ah at 100% DOD at the 1 hour rate
when new. Call it a 40Ah battery at the 1 hour rate for 80% DOD.
Seth Allen
AKA
"the other Seth"
On Feb 14, 2004, at 9:34 PM, Gary Graunke wrote:
Peter Eckhoff writes:
In the vehicle I've been looking over, the Hawker G12v38AH 10C
batteries
were
replaced by a lesser number of Deka 8G27. In the technical specs of
both
batteries, the Hawkers have a stated capacity of 38 Ah at a battery
weight
of
16Kg (74 pounds) while the Deka have a stated capacity of 86 Ah, at a
battery
weight of 14Kg (64 pounds). If you go by just the capacity numbers, a
Deka
should go over twice as far yet the battery weighs 15% less. This
does not
seem
right. Does this have something to do with the 10C (discharge rate?)
in
the
Hawker's part number above? If so, at a two hour discharge rate, the
Deka's
figure (interpolated form a pdf table) is approximately 33 A which
would
be more
in line with an apples to apples comparison. Then the 86 Ah value
would
then be
a 1C (20 hour) value (4.32A * 20 hours)? In terms of interpretation,
is
this
the way you all see it?
I think the two are pretty close in terms of specific energy.
I have about 101 Hawker 12V 38AH C10 Genesis batteries. They are about
33
lbs each.
The newer equivalent is the 12V GE42EP 42AH at C20, which weighs 32.9
lbs.
So I'm pretty sure your figures are incorrect (also, just a nit, it is
C10
not 10C--C10 means 10 hours to discharge the rated capacity, while 10C
at
38AH would be a 380 A discharge!).
More to the point for EV usage is the shorter discharge capabilities
(Peukert and all).
The 42AH Hawker 60 minute discharge rate is 33.8A (or 33.8 AH total).
For my S10 pickup, this would mean going 33.8 mph for an hour, as it
gets
about 1 mile per AH real life efficiency in traffic, hills, etc., with
a
312V (two strings of 26) pack. Since my pack is 10 years old, the most
I
have driven is 38 mi on a charge. However, with new batteries the
claimed
40-60 mi range seems about right. Hawkers are great power batteries--I
have
pulled 170A while going up a 6% grade for 3 minutes at 45 mph with the
5000
lb truck. Also, they only lose about 1% per month. They can sit for
years if
charged, but it is best to keep them on a float charge.
For my 2100 lb Insight with a temporary pack of 168V (one string of 14
12V38C10's),
I'm taking about 168 Wh/mi at 35 mph, so again a steady 33.8 mph would
get
in theory use 33.8 AH in an hour. In practice I drive a bit faster,
and 25
miles would be pretty much the best case limit (maybe more if the
batteries
weren't 10 years old).
So the C1 rate is probably more realistic. The high power (low internal
resistance) of the Hawkers and low self-discharge rate is very helpful.
However, the specific energy seems to be very close at C20: 84AH for
66 lbs
for 2 Hawkers vs Deka 86AH for 64 lbs.
However, if the C1 rate is 33.8AH for the Hawkers, this is a bit
better than
the C2 (2 hour) 33AH rate that you calculated for the Dekas. In
reality, the
C1 rate is more realistic, unless you have the ultimate Red
Beastie-style
lead sled (a pickup full of batteries).
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 14 Feb 2004 at 17:38, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> The Deka 8G27s are Gel batteries. What shape should the Deka's be in IF
> they were charged and then left sitting for 6 months to a year?
My 8G24s have low self-discharge. After 6 months there should no more
than a few amp-hours gone, unless the vehicle systems present a small load
of some kind. I have some of these batteries on standby for backup power
(sump pump and electric fence charger), and I don't even bother float-
charging them. I just cycle them a few AH every few months.
Note that Deka gels are not high current batteries. They will do OK up to 250
or 300 amps. Don't expect more than that; capacity and efficiency fall
rapidly. If you stay within that range and care for them well, though, they will
give you pretty good cycle life. They seem to degrade rather gracefully when
they age. Try to keep depth of discharge between 50% and 80%.
Don't charge them like Hawkers. Hawkers are happy with 14.8 to 15 volts of
finish. Max voltage on-charge for the Dekas should be 14.3 constant voltage.
Make sure your charger is programmed correctly for the Dekas.
The specific energy comparison with Hawkwers took me by surprise. I don't
have time to do my own calculations against Hawkers right now, but high
specific energy has never been their long suit. I think if you look at capacity
at higher currents, you'll find that the Dekas don't fare as well.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Diana Trevino wrote:
> I am trying to build a 400 volt charger to charge the batteries
> directly. Just a very basic charger, non-isolated, non-automatic,
> just some 400 VDC to charge the batterys in the two Electricars
> and see where we stand.
400vdc can be VERY DANGEROUS! Batteries can't be turned off; they are
'live' all the time. So I must first warn you most sincerely not to do
this unless you are very knowledgeable about working around such
voltages. OK; with that in mind...
I would suggest building a charger with a variac, isolation
transformer, and bridge rectifier. I'd include a GFCI, ammeter,
voltmeter, and timer to automatically turn it off. This should make it
reasonably flexible and safer to use.
Circuit-wise, it would look something like this. The variac and
transformer primary would be 120v or 240v, to suit the power level and
supply voltage you want to use. View with a fixed-width font, like
Courier.
fuse
DC rated!
___ ___ ___ 600v bridge _______/\ _____+
AC _____|_/_|__|_/_|__|_/_|______ rectifier _|_ _|_ \/ |
hot | | | | |___| _| /_\ /_\ |
| | | | timer || |_ /____ ______| | |
| | | | || |_ \ _| || |_ | | volt- / \
| | | | || |_ _| || |_ | | meter \_/
AC _____|_/_|__|_/_|_____________|_____| || |_____ | ___| |
neutral |___| |___| variac isolation _|_ _|_ |
GFCI circuit transformer /_\ /_\ _ |
breaker 120/240vac in |____|___/ \__|__-
480vac out \_/
ammeter
Remember that the primaries and secondaries of a transformer are
interchangeable; so look for a 480v primary and 120v or 240v
secondaries. If you can't find a transformer with a 480v winding, you
can use two transformers with 240v windings with their 240v windings in
series.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
, Hi Rod and All,
There is a great 100lb motor that would be
good for you, the 3 cyl, 57hp Geo Metro motor. Low
pollution, stock fuel injection, high eff and parts,
conversion info available from homebuilt aircraft
sources as it is converted for aircraft use.
Or there are several 18-25 hp OHV industral
engine depending on how many kw you want to generate
at the same weight.
I've always wanted to build an RV-EV hybrid
using a Metro motor at 3600rpm as a generator and EV
as the drive with a 50 mile batt pack.
If you use eff gens you only need 15-20 hp,
12-15kw for your T-van to go long distance at 60mph.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> After buying a 10hp electric start Tecumseh engine
> I got some good feedback for a generator engine
> for the TEVan.
> A couple of posts said I needed 15-20Hp and another
> post said a used Insight engine would be ideal.
> So this 10hp engine might go on my son's go cart and
> I'm still looking for an Insight engine.
> Any good leads on where I can find these?
> Rod.
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
> Why two strings? Do you have a dual controller/motor combo as in the E-10?
The controller is the AC Dolphin system by GM/Hughes. It's set for 312V, and
since the 38AH Hawkers are fairly small, the 52 batteries are two strings of
26.
> > Since my pack is 10 years old, the most I
> > have driven is 38 mi on a charge. However, with new batteries the
claimed
> > 40-60 mi range seems about right. Hawkers are great power batteries--I
have
> > pulled 170A while going up a 6% grade for 3 minutes at 45 mph with the
5000
> > lb truck. Also, they only lose about 1% per month. They can sit for
years
if
> > charged, but it is best to keep them on a float charge.
> How many miles do you have on your pack?
The S10 is at 8538 miles. I bought it two and one half years ago at 7000,
but have not driven it much in the last two years. The Insight has 2186
miles since last April on 14 S10 spares (the best 52 went in the S10), but a
few have been retired as too weak.
The truck came with 52 batteries, but 6 had dead cells. I then picked up (at
a very reasonable price) another used pack of 48 used for racing, but
otherwise unknown history (8 of them had dead cells). Add to that one new
battery from the Wayland garage, and that's 101. I gave 8 away to a local
solar power vendor.
Thanks for the East Penn-Deka pointer. They also have a very good
reputation.
We seem to have a fair number of good, competitive choices for flooded and
AGM/gel lead acid batteries. Too bad that we don't seem to have that many
choices in the higher energy space (NiCd, NiZn, LiIon, NiMH).
Gary
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I recently sold my '94 Ranger conversion and the new owner is reporting
only about 1 mile per kilowatt hour when measured at the outlet, but about
400 watt-hours per mile when record by the E-meter. The truck is a 120 VDC
conversion using standard golf cart batteries and a Russco 120 VAC
charger. He recently traveled 36 miles at 55 mph, so I don't think the
truck is running all that poorly, but both he and I expected far higher
efficiency. Does anyone have a similar truck that we could compare numbers
with? Isn't 1000 watt-hours per mile excessive for a vehicle like
this? Is the Ruscco the problem or the golf cart batteries or what?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike,
>From the DOE EV America site, the 1995 Solectria E-10 has a efficiency of
319 Wh/mile @ a constant 60 mph. Range of 49.9 miles using 15.59 kWh
The pack is 144v system with dual AC inductuion motors, gtx20's rated at
12kw each, 7400 RPM.
This sounds close to what you have.
Peter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 17:29 PM
Subject: Charger efficiency
> Hi folks,
>
> I recently sold my '94 Ranger conversion and the new owner is reporting
> only about 1 mile per kilowatt hour when measured at the outlet, but about
> 400 watt-hours per mile when record by the E-meter. The truck is a 120
VDC
> conversion using standard golf cart batteries and a Russco 120 VAC
> charger. He recently traveled 36 miles at 55 mph, so I don't think the
> truck is running all that poorly, but both he and I expected far higher
> efficiency. Does anyone have a similar truck that we could compare
numbers
> with? Isn't 1000 watt-hours per mile excessive for a vehicle like
> this? Is the Ruscco the problem or the golf cart batteries or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The following is listed on Ebay, I thought somebody may be interested.
I have no connection with the seller, other than placing a couple of bids. ;)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460716788
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm curious about the Panasonic Prizmatic batteries. There seems to be
two types of these NiMH battery packs.
One is a 95ah 12 volt pack that's made of 10 1.2 volt 95ah batteries.
This was used in Rangers, and the Honda EV
The other is the 6.5ah 7.2 volt packs. These were used in the first
generation Prius packs.
My question is are these availible to the public? The 6.5ah packs aren't
too usefull on an EV as they don't parallel well. But 95ah is another
story. Not as good as lithium, but better density then lead.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's sort of an understatement. Better than lead. Aren't they as
close to the Holy Grail for a BEV as currently exists? Afaik, not
available, but Gold Peak makes 40, 80, 90 and 100Ah NiMh, IIRC
Seth
AKA
"the other Seth"
On Feb 15, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
I'm curious about the Panasonic Prizmatic batteries. There seems to be
two types of these NiMH battery packs.
One is a 95ah 12 volt pack that's made of 10 1.2 volt 95ah batteries.
This was used in Rangers, and the Honda EV
The other is the 6.5ah 7.2 volt packs. These were used in the first
generation Prius packs.
My question is are these availible to the public? The 6.5ah packs
aren't too usefull on an EV as they don't parallel well. But 95ah is
another story. Not as good as lithium, but better density then lead.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mike,
I would first do the calculations the following range formula:
This is a example using my EV Electro I:
1. Batteries = 180 battery pack at 244 AH at 20 hour rate.
2. 180 volts x 244 AH = 43,920 watt hour
3. For 1 hour discharge rated:
a. multiply the rated = 43,920 x .57 = 25,034 watt hour.
4. 25,034 wh / 60 mph = 417 Watt hour a mile.
My actual watts per mile is 430 watts which is the usable wattage.
If it takes all of 43,920 watts of energy from battery and charge the 43,920
watts back and usable effective watts is 25,034 watts which is 57 percent
efficiency.
43,920/430 = 1021 watts from the outlet.
To increase the efficiency, I will be getting one of Rich Rudman Chargers.
Range = 25,034 watts / 430 wpm = 58.2 miles.
The above info is from http://www.trojanbattery.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 3:29 PM
Subject: Charger efficiency
> Hi folks,
>
> I recently sold my '94 Ranger conversion and the new owner is reporting
> only about 1 mile per kilowatt hour when measured at the outlet, but about
> 400 watt-hours per mile when record by the E-meter. The truck is a 120
> VDC
> conversion using standard golf cart batteries and a Russco 120 VAC
> charger. He recently traveled 36 miles at 55 mph, so I don't think the
> truck is running all that poorly, but both he and I expected far higher
> efficiency. Does anyone have a similar truck that we could compare
> numbers
> with? Isn't 1000 watt-hours per mile excessive for a vehicle like
> this? Is the Ruscco the problem or the golf cart batteries or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 1983 Ranger conversion averaged 2.0 miles per kWhr. This was measured
with a
kWhr meter at the outlet. I never had an E-meter. 2 miles per kWhr is
consistent with what
others have described here; 1 mile per kWhr is not. My Ranger had a
120-volt pack of
golf cart batteries and several homemade charging setups.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Charger efficiency
> Hi folks,
>
> I recently sold my '94 Ranger conversion and the new owner is reporting
> only about 1 mile per kilowatt hour when measured at the outlet, but about
> 400 watt-hours per mile when record by the E-meter. The truck is a 120
VDC
> conversion using standard golf cart batteries and a Russco 120 VAC
> charger. He recently traveled 36 miles at 55 mph, so I don't think the
> truck is running all that poorly, but both he and I expected far higher
> efficiency. Does anyone have a similar truck that we could compare
numbers
> with? Isn't 1000 watt-hours per mile excessive for a vehicle like
> this? Is the Ruscco the problem or the golf cart batteries or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these? I was
wondering how it handles and accelerates compared to something like a
Sparrow whose 3 wheels are opposite this? How cramped would the inside
be. It looks like it could be somewhat difficult getting in and out.
I wonder how it would do in the rain?
Sam
--- Robert Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The following is listed on Ebay, I thought somebody may be
> interested.
>
> I have no connection with the seller, other than placing a couple of
> bids. ;)
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460716788
>
> Bob
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry,
Thanks for the info, do you have more detailed info
on the conversion process(web sites etc.)
I can figure out most of this myself, but sometimes
the extra reference material is usefull to avoid
stupid mistakes.
Thank,s
Rod
--- jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> , Hi Rod and All,
> There is a great 100lb motor that would be
> good for you, the 3 cyl, 57hp Geo Metro motor. Low
> pollution, stock fuel injection, high eff and parts,
> conversion info available from homebuilt aircraft
> sources as it is converted for aircraft use.
> Or there are several 18-25 hp OHV industral
> engine depending on how many kw you want to generate
> at the same weight.
> I've always wanted to build an RV-EV hybrid
> using a Metro motor at 3600rpm as a generator and EV
> as the drive with a 50 mile batt pack.
> If you use eff gens you only need 15-20 hp,
> 12-15kw for your T-van to go long distance at
> 60mph.
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > After buying a 10hp electric start Tecumseh engine
> > I got some good feedback for a generator engine
> > for the TEVan.
> > A couple of posts said I needed 15-20Hp and
> another
> > post said a used Insight engine would be ideal.
> > So this 10hp engine might go on my son's go cart
> and
> > I'm still looking for an Insight engine.
> > Any good leads on where I can find these?
> > Rod.
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing
> online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, this is pretty close to what I get with my '77 Datsun Kingcab
conversion with the same setup - maybe even a little better! The furthest I
have gone is 26 miles, but I have some stoplights, etc., to contend with.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 2:29 PM
Subject: Charger efficiency
> Hi folks,
>
> I recently sold my '94 Ranger conversion and the new owner is reporting
> only about 1 mile per kilowatt hour when measured at the outlet, but about
> 400 watt-hours per mile when record by the E-meter. The truck is a 120
VDC
> conversion using standard golf cart batteries and a Russco 120 VAC
> charger. He recently traveled 36 miles at 55 mph, so I don't think the
> truck is running all that poorly, but both he and I expected far higher
> efficiency. Does anyone have a similar truck that we could compare
numbers
> with? Isn't 1000 watt-hours per mile excessive for a vehicle like
> this? Is the Ruscco the problem or the golf cart batteries or what?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tom wrote:
My 1983 Ranger conversion averaged 2.0 miles per kWhr. This was measured
with a
kWhr meter at the outlet. I never had an E-meter. 2 miles per kWhr is
consistent with what
others have described here; 1 mile per kWhr is not.
Okay, it sounds like the battery to ground efficiency on my former Ranger
is fine, but the charger is not doing too well. Okay, what if anything can
be done about it? The truck also has an off-board Solar Car Corp
ferro-resonant charger, but that seems to be on the blink right now. Are
these normally a more efficient or less efficient design than the Russco?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, technically speaking the big problem with NiMH seems to be that
they don't parallel well (at all). Thus you're stuck with 6.5ah
batteries, no matter what the voltage.
And the energy density net seems to be less than lithium. A 90ah pack
would weigh as much as my 52ah pack, while a lithium ion pack of 90ah
would weigh half as much as my current pack.
Chris
Seth wrote:
That's sort of an understatement. Better than lead. Aren't they as close
to the Holy Grail for a BEV as currently exists? Afaik, not available,
but Gold Peak makes 40, 80, 90 and 100Ah NiMh, IIRC
Seth
AKA
"the other Seth"
On Feb 15, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
I'm curious about the Panasonic Prizmatic batteries. There seems to be
two types of these NiMH battery packs.
One is a 95ah 12 volt pack that's made of 10 1.2 volt 95ah batteries.
This was used in Rangers, and the Honda EV
The other is the 6.5ah 7.2 volt packs. These were used in the first
generation Prius packs.
My question is are these availible to the public? The 6.5ah packs
aren't too usefull on an EV as they don't parallel well. But 95ah is
another story. Not as good as lithium, but better density then lead.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Except you don't have a 52Ah pack. It's more like 30-35 useable, versus
say 80 for NiMH if you were to get 90Ah cells. And who says NiMH
doesn't parallel? Or parallels worse than lead? And IMO, lithium is
still a self powered power resistor unless you are talking cell phones
and laptops.
Seth
AKA
"the other Seth"
On Feb 15, 2004, at 8:20 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Well, technically speaking the big problem with NiMH seems to be that
they don't parallel well (at all). Thus you're stuck with 6.5ah
batteries, no matter what the voltage.
And the energy density net seems to be less than lithium. A 90ah pack
would weigh as much as my 52ah pack, while a lithium ion pack of 90ah
would weigh half as much as my current pack.
Chris
Seth wrote:
That's sort of an understatement. Better than lead. Aren't they as
close to the Holy Grail for a BEV as currently exists? Afaik, not
available, but Gold Peak makes 40, 80, 90 and 100Ah NiMh, IIRC
Seth
AKA
"the other Seth"
On Feb 15, 2004, at 6:13 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
I'm curious about the Panasonic Prizmatic batteries. There seems to
be two types of these NiMH battery packs.
One is a 95ah 12 volt pack that's made of 10 1.2 volt 95ah
batteries. This was used in Rangers, and the Honda EV
The other is the 6.5ah 7.2 volt packs. These were used in the first
generation Prius packs.
My question is are these availible to the public? The 6.5ah packs
aren't too usefull on an EV as they don't parallel well. But 95ah is
another story. Not as good as lithium, but better density then lead.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just about everywhere I look I see signs saying "Don't parallel NiMh
batteries". Not sure why, but there it is. Perhaps it is during charge
only. If this is incorrect, someone pls correct me.
For real fun, could one parallel a NiMH pack to a lead acid one? I'm
thinking parallel 300 volts of Hawkers with 50 or 60ah or NiMH batteries
(in parallel of course). Serious acceleration coupled with long-o range.
Yes, I would charge them seperately.
Chris
Seth wrote:
Except you don't have a 52Ah pack. It's more like 30-35 useable, versus
say 80 for NiMH if you were to get 90Ah cells. And who says NiMH doesn't
parallel? Or parallels worse than lead? And IMO, lithium is still a self
powered power resistor unless you are talking cell phones and laptops.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim and others,
The first time I had trouble with the T-Rex, the car was parked outside and
it had been a very moist day (rain/sleet), and then the temperature dropped
below freezing overnight. The next morning it was a no-go. I called DCP and
Damon said they had a problem with condensation regarding the maximum
throttle pot circuit, and after drying it out, it worked fine and life was
good again. About three months later we had similar weather and the
controller let the smoke out the next morning. I believe Bob Rice had
similar problems with his DCP. Anyway, DCP said they would put more
conformal coating on after repairing/upgrading the T-Rex, and also on the
Raptor that I had ordered (with water cooling to replace a Cursit 1231 that
was overheating) for the truck. They must have used a silicone based
coating, because both purple boxes smelled like it for a couple of weeks
and I couldn't display them on the coffee table due to the stench. The
Raptor in the truck is still working great, knock on wood, but since DCP
won't repair the T-Rex (even though Damon said to ship it back to them?),
I'm just a little paranoid now!
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Officer with the Denver Electric Vehicle Council
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and racer with The National Electric Drag Racing
Association
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of YT's, but with a dead DCP controller the 15
year-old daughter is screwed!)
1989 Chevy S10 Ext. Cab (144V of floodies, for Ma and Pa only!)
>Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2004 11:23:09 -0500
>From: Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Conformal (Re: anyone EVER fried a zilla?)
>
>What exactly is "conformal coating"?
>
>I've heard various places that it adds resistance to moisture. Or to
>heat. Or to cold. Or to the flu. Does one get a bucket of Conformal and
>paint it on a PC board?
--- End Message ---
