EV Digest 3360
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) XCD install update
by William Glickman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Trimuter (was: Ebay EV)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: parallel nickels
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: Charger efficiency
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Report: Investigation of breakdown of the SAFT STM5-100
battery
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: XCD install update
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: XCD install update, comments
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: parallel nickels
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Hawker Genesis 26EP replacement (was: other batteries for US Electricar S10)
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Anyone remember USCAR?
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Hawker Genesis 26EP replacement (was: other batteries for US Electricar S10)
by "Mason Convey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Anyone remember USCAR?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Carbon pile? and blowers
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Unsubscribe
by Joseph M Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) ev list
by "Christian T. Kocmick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Electric Moped @ Pep Boys
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Does this mean batteries with both top posts and side posts have two
complete sets of cell interconnects and therefore bipolar construction ?
> Thats exactly how we did the interconnects.
> It's the high current connections to the side posts that has me
concerned.
Hi Ben,
I don't know what the side posts are rated for current wise,
but like it was pointed out, I'm just using them for charging.
I've never seen anyone using the side posts for high currents,
probably because it's much better to use a full wraparound clamp
on the top post. The side posts might loosen over time due to
creeping of the lead under pressure.
...John
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have read a bit and heard a bit about these vehicles. I think the
claimed 60 mile range is a bit questionable.
how it accelerates depends entirely on what kind of
motor/controller/battery it has and the listing tells you next to
nothing about these items A(except the battery needs to be replaced).
>From what I've heard handling is acceptable, but not remarkable. Frog
type tree wheelers (two rear wheels) tend to handle better when
accelerating and going up hill compared to tadpoles (two front wheels).
Tadpoles handle better when decelerating (as long as they don't
faceplant ) and going downhill. This generically speaking, it's easy to
build a tree wheeler that doesn't handle well, takes a little skill to
build one that does handle well.
The top opens up on these so you just need to throw a leg over and sit
down, no worse to get into or out of than a sports car. How it does in
the rain depends on the builder.
> Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these? I was
> wondering how it handles and accelerates compared to something like a
> Sparrow whose 3 wheels are opposite this? How cramped would the inside
> be. It looks like it could be somewhat difficult getting in and out.
> I wonder how it would do in the rain?
>
> Sam
>
>
> --- Robert Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > The following is listed on Ebay, I thought somebody may be
> > interested.
> >
> > I have no connection with the seller, other than placing a couple of
> > bids. ;)
> >
> >
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2460716788
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online.
> http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Just about everywhere I look I see signs saying "Don't parallel NiMh
batteries". Not sure why, but there it is. Perhaps it is during charge
only. If this is incorrect, someone pls correct me.>>
Same goes for NiCd, and probably NiFe, where you could discharge them
paralleled, but have to charge them as separate strings. I think SAFT won't
sell to you if you submit plans for parallel operation. I don't know if anyone
has tried parallel charging with a NiZn pack, so that may be different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has the pack gotten out of balance, or is it running
significantly hotter than it used to? Is this or something else
(RUSSCO charger mis-set) preventing the charger from shutting
off? I don't trust automatic chargers to turn off.
Is the new owner mainly using the vehicle for short trips or have
many steep hills that comprise a large part of his trips? If
short trips, then gassing or tapering at charge time comprises a
larger part of the charge cycle.
My Rabbit has varied from 1mi/kwh or even a little less to about
3.5mi/kwh at the outlet, depending on how long the trips are, the
terrain covered, age of pack, balance of pack, temperature of
pack, etc., etc. The standard deviation on these measurements is
probably horrendous. I just about don't bother with mi/kwh
measurements anymore.
When I measured a prototype RUSSCO charger several years ago, it
was in the same ballpark for mi/kwh with the Zivan K2 and K&W
BC-20, all chargers 120VAC.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://nbeaa.org
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, February 15, 2004 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: Charger efficiency
> Tom wrote:
> >My 1983 Ranger conversion averaged 2.0 miles per kWhr. This
was measured
> >with a
> >kWhr meter at the outlet. I never had an E-meter. 2 miles
per kWhr is
> >consistent with what
> >others have described here; 1 mile per kWhr is not.
>
>
> Okay, it sounds like the battery to ground efficiency on my
former Ranger
> is fine, but the charger is not doing too well. Okay, what if
anything can
> be done about it? The truck also has an off-board Solar Car
Corp
> ferro-resonant charger, but that seems to be on the blink right
now. Are
> these normally a more efficient or less efficient design than
the Russco?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Peugeot Scoot'Elec scooter (moped) uses 3 of the air-cooled STM5-100R
monoblocs mounted longitudinally with a single one in front of the other two
side-by-side so the front one has both "long" sides exposed to the air and
the rear ones have one long side and 1.5 "short" sides exposed to air. They
are charged at 50A/5A (2C+20C - 2 hours+2hours+1hour "overcharge") and
discharged pretty much at 1C, with short term peaks up to about 150A.
Mine are on around 1,200 cycles (not often below 50% DOD) and doing well at
over 90% of their original capacity. I have never known the charger refuse
to begin charging because of high battery temperature (as indicated may
happen in the owner's handbook) even on hot (by UK standards!) summer days.
The only criticism I have is that the power available (specific power?)
falls off if left to stand for about 24 hours making a notable difference to
acceleration and top speed. This may have become worse as they have aged.
There is an optional supplementary charger to feed another 50A in without
any extra cooling. I don't use one though.
The only problems I've had have been with the temperature sensors, as some
people know!
Matt
'99 Peugeot Scoot'Elec 20,800km (13,000 miles)
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2004 13:33:58 -0500
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Report: Investigation of breakdown of the SAFT STM5-100 battery
>
> On 13 Feb 2004 at 23:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> I noticed that you didn't install the required water cooling
>> system on your battery pack.
>
> Ralph had the air-cooled modules. So do I. They're the same as the liquid
> cooled ones, but they don't have the outer plastic sheet that forms the
> channels in the sides of the modules.
>
> You have the right type, IMO. I think the liquid cooled modules are a much
> better idea.
>
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
> switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> 1991 Solectria Force 144vac
> 1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
> 1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
> 1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> Americans are satisfied with things because they are large; and
> if not large, they must have cost a great deal of money.
>
> -- Lepel Henry Griffin, ca. 1885
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
William Glickman wrote:
> Does this mean batteries with both top posts and side posts have two
> complete sets of cell interconnects and therefore bipolar construction
No. The side posts are typically an add-on. They just altered the case
design to add a lead busbar from the top post to the side. Due to the
length and thickness of this busbar, its current-carrying capacity is
limited.
The sideposts mainly add dead weight to the battery, without any
corresponding improvements. I feel that sideposts in general are a bad,
cheap idea invented by the auto companies to save money, not improve
performance.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: XCD install update
> William Glickman wrote:
> > Does this mean batteries with both top posts and side posts have two
> > complete sets of cell interconnects and therefore bipolar construction
> No. The side posts are typically an add-on. They just altered the case
> design to add a lead busbar from the top post to the side. Due to the
> length and thickness of this busbar, its current-carrying capacity is
> limited.
>
> The sideposts mainly add dead weight to the battery, without any
> corresponding improvements. I feel that sideposts in general are a bad,
> cheap idea invented by the auto companies to save money, not improve
> performance.
> -- Hi All;
A Sidebar to the sidepost thing. My local InterState battery guy, when I
asked him if he had any Exide Orbitals said" They are rife with interconnect
cell problems cuz The OptimaYellow Top folks have the good patents on
putting spiral type batteries together, and that they were having problems
with the Orbital line" Well. take that with a grain of baking soda, as he
thought the Yellow tops would be a poor choice for an EV. Gees! I'm
inpressed with J Waylands applications of YT's. For what he's using them
for a lite daily driver that ya don't need 60 mile range. Often wondered how
far Blue Meanie would do, with Orbitals on my demanding 60 mi RT commute,
driving normally, with and without charging at work.I mean no smoke shows or
blowing off Vettes and Mustangs on the way, but it sure would be
tempting<g>!
I havent bought many batteries from this guy, as he doesn't believe in
EV's He works on racing GAS cars , Chevies,as a hobby.Sigh! With a
wharehouse full of batteries, yud think he'd be tempted?!But he's a nice
source of ICE batteries, though.
Seems a shame, and a Royal Pain in the Ass, with all these silly terminal
setups!! Give me a good old round tapered Automotive post! NO DAMN
sideposts!Like has been on batteries since the Beginning of Time in the ICE
era. Hell! They were developed with common "cents "in mind, max contact,
and the good quality terminals to go with the design. Simple, cheap, never
blown a post off a battery, butya got to check to see if they are tight, now
an again. I HAVE forgotten to tighten a few times, and just lifted the cable
off the post! Shocked,I mean really amazed, really ,that it had carried
hundreds of amps, and NOT zorched! Just dumb luck, don't try this at home or
on the road<g>!Tony Ascrizzi an' I feel about the same way, and we recast
REAL posts on my T 145's when they were new. What a project! 40 posts to
knock off and recast, but worth it! Tony hada mould made to do this, HIS
posts are a tad bigger, more bite for stock terminals, on purpose, of
cource!I felt that it was faster to recast the posts than rewire the CAR for
odball posts.
Seeya
Bob
...Way off topic, but of merit, I think. Remember those Clever Cubans
that set sail in a '51Chevy flatbed, with 55 gal drums as a pontoons to sail
to America? They did it AGAIN, with a new car, for Cuba ,59 Buick! Sticking
to GM products, customer loyalty? The pix in the paper, it was painted the
same color as the truck, light green, it said that it was faster than the
truck, Well it DID have a sorta more nautical shape with a sheetmetal 'Bow"
Rode a bit low in the water. Alas, they were stopped by the Coast Guard.
They sunk the truck, but they , far as I know, didn't sink the Buick. It
belongs in the Smithsonian, far as I'm concerned!. Had they been electric,
maybe they could roll up the windows and submerge when the CG showed up.
They wouldn't be expecting a submarine, and sail on after the coast was
clear. Guys of that determination and inginuety would be a formidable EV
racing team, IF they can get here<g>!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I was working for a aircraft defense agency, we would pull the 28 volt
NICd battery pack out of the aircraft once a month, pull a the cells out of
the battery box and charge each cell with a mult-cell battery charger
system.
If you charge them in series, as there were in the aircraft, the amperes is
the same through all the cells, but the voltage could be different on some
cells. This is the reason of the pull out every month.
If you parallel charge them, the voltage is the same on each cell, but the
ampere could be different could be different on some cells.
Of course we were working in balancing a match set of cells to within 0.01
volts and amperes as per specifications.
We than completely grease the entire cells all over, top, sides and bottom
with silicone dielectric grease which is a press fit back into the battery
boxes.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 1:27 AM
Subject: Re: parallel nickels
> <<Just about everywhere I look I see signs saying "Don't parallel NiMh
> batteries". Not sure why, but there it is. Perhaps it is during charge
> only. If this is incorrect, someone pls correct me.>>
>
> Same goes for NiCd, and probably NiFe, where you could discharge them
> paralleled, but have to charge them as separate strings. I think SAFT
> won't
> sell to you if you submit plans for parallel operation. I don't know if
> anyone
> has tried parallel charging with a NiZn pack, so that may be different.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Chapman wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:52 PM
> Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
> > Rod Hower wrote:
> > >
> > > Rich,
> > > Sounds like you need one of Ameteks blowers.
> > > We were testing one today that puts out
> > > 1300 CFM at 20 inches of H2O.
> > > It's only 14 inches in diameter and 5" thick
> > > not including the 3HP 230Vac drive motor at
> > > 9,000 RPM.
> > > Rod
> > > Serious air
> > >
> > That's more than my buddie's SuperFlow 110 Flow Bench!!!
> > I rather boil water, or recycle the watts.
>
> Rich, why not hook the blower in series with the load? That way you can keep
> your cool and not "waste" watts? DC.
In series??? NOT a chance since the load is going up into the Multi
100kw range, In paralel maybe.
But most of my power will recirculate back into the Batteries. Some of
course will have to make some Nichrome glow, because I need the heat and
What's a Dyno without some glowing melting parts???
I DID get to it all bolted down and put together yesterday. And
actually Got to load down a motor. 12 volts is boring....Adjustable
brushes with some real world loading is rather eye opening. I can adjust
the power consumed by over %500 with just brush movment. I just got the
UPS box for today, It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power resistors
in it. On the dyno I can get a a 8" to pull 188 amps from a single
Optima Red top. The safts are NOT spinning very fast. More like
GROAnnnnn! And also this is just a bit less than %10 of what my amp
goals are.
Anybody know of nifty ways to measure the torque on a shaft without
using strain gages on the motor mounting base? There are some nifty
systems that transmit the torque data wireless to a nearby sensor, So
you don't have to touch the saft or motor, and you still get good data.
I am looking for a complete system, not some engineering required, I
have enough to build and design!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mason,
I'm glad that someone out there makes Genesis replacement batteries. I
tried the link you provided, but the leochusa web site is not as
up-to-date as their main website:
http://leoch.com/English/index.htm
I am particularly interested in a replacement for my Hawker Genesis
26EP. The Leoch version, although having more Ah capacity (28Ah vs
26Ah), does not look like it would be as good of a performer in terms
of providing allot of current in a short period of time and being able
to take large amounts of current for charging. For example, the 5
minute discharge characteristics are 120A at 1.3V terminal voltage for
the Leoch vs. 143A at 1.67V for the Genesis. Relevant links can be
found at
http://leoch.com/English/p/p3/DJW12-28.htm
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 14, 2004, at 4:42 PM, Mason Convey wrote:
Yes. Leoch. They make several, several batteries that are
"coincidentally"
the same footprint as many of the Hawker batteries. At the 10-hour
rate,
they're actually better than Hawkers in many of their models.
Unfortunately,
at EV discharge levels, their internal resistance makes their
capacities
slightly less than Hawkers. But for the price, you cannot beat these.
They're Chinese-made and distributed in the U.S. out of California. As
a
point of reference, the company I work ordered about 50 of the Leoch
90Ah
batteries that are the same size as the Hawker Genesis 70Ah modules.
With
shipping to Phoenix, the cost was just over $50 per battery! For the
smaller
batteries that fit the U Electricar trucks (and the even smaller
batteries
that fit the US Electricar cars), you can probably expect to pay even
less...
http://www.leochusa.com/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's all about tradeoffs. You'll probably get the Leoch batteries shipped to
you for about 1/3 or 1/4 the cost of new Hawkers. In cases where charging
rates are conservative and people don't need absolute maximum range out of
an Electricar vehicle, these would be an excellent cost-effective
alternative to the rather expensive Hawker Genesis line...
mason
> I am particularly interested in a replacement for my Hawker Genesis
> 26EP. The Leoch version, although having more Ah capacity (28Ah vs
> 26Ah), does not look like it would be as good of a performer in terms
> of providing allot of current in a short period of time and being able
> to take large amounts of current for charging.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 1:00 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
<< snip >>
> >
> > Rich, why not hook the blower in series with the load? That way you can
> keep
> > your cool and not "waste" watts? DC.
> In series??? NOT a chance since the load is going up into the Multi
> 100kw range, In paralel maybe.
Now how hard can it be to find a 2 volt 2000 amp motor. Find the nearest
rail gun manufacturer.
> But most of my power will recirculate back into the Batteries. Some of
> course will have to make some Nichrome glow, because I need the heat and
> What's a Dyno without some glowing melting parts???
> I DID get to it all bolted down and put together yesterday. And
> actually Got to load down a motor. 12 volts is boring....Adjustable
> brushes with some real world loading is rather eye opening. I can adjust
> the power consumed by over %500 with just brush movment. I just got the
> UPS box for today, It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power resistors
> in it. On the dyno I can get a a 8" to pull 188 amps from a single
> Optima Red top. The safts are NOT spinning very fast. More like
> GROAnnnnn! And also this is just a bit less than %10 of what my amp
> goals are.
>
> Anybody know of nifty ways to measure the torque on a shaft without
> using strain gages on the motor mounting base? There are some nifty
> systems that transmit the torque data wireless to a nearby sensor, So
> you don't have to touch the saft or motor, and you still get good data.
> I am looking for a complete system, not some engineering required, I
> have enough to build and design!
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
Probably not much help but how about two mirrors spaced a known distance
apart on a shaft, a laser and a really good timer.
Andre' B.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Feb 2004 at 11:43, Lee Dekker wrote:
> Yes, GM still has the EV1 promo page up and running. Great car GM, too bad
> you crushed it.
It's really sad. Every reference to the car is past tense. From
http://www.gmev.com/faq/faq.htm :
> How fast did the EV1 go?
> How far would it go?
> How long did it take to charge?
> Why was the EV1 lease only?
Et cetera. And, on this page:
http://www.gmev.com/project/project.htm
> The EV1 was one of the best electric cars ever made. It was a car
> that helped to define the future.
You can tell that ^someone^ at GM cares. Unfortunately, the people in
charge don't.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
> Now how hard can it be to find a 2 volt 2000 amp motor?
Aha! At last, a practical use for a homopolar motor!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A gimbal mounted motor with a known lever arm and a load cell/ fish
scale or similar device is pretty good. Non contact torques sensors
like those from Himmelstein are not inexpensive. Like >$500 for a
calibration, plus shipping truck freight. So you can imagine what the
sensor costs. A strain gauge setup can be $150 for the gauge.
Seth
On Feb 16, 2004, at 2:00 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
David Chapman wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:52 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
Rod Hower wrote:
Rich,
Sounds like you need one of Ameteks blowers.
We were testing one today that puts out
1300 CFM at 20 inches of H2O.
It's only 14 inches in diameter and 5" thick
not including the 3HP 230Vac drive motor at
9,000 RPM.
Rod
Serious air
That's more than my buddie's SuperFlow 110 Flow Bench!!!
I rather boil water, or recycle the watts.
Rich, why not hook the blower in series with the load? That way you
can keep
your cool and not "waste" watts? DC.
In series??? NOT a chance since the load is going up into the Multi
100kw range, In paralel maybe.
But most of my power will recirculate back into the Batteries. Some of
course will have to make some Nichrome glow, because I need the heat
and
What's a Dyno without some glowing melting parts???
I DID get to it all bolted down and put together yesterday. And
actually Got to load down a motor. 12 volts is boring....Adjustable
brushes with some real world loading is rather eye opening. I can
adjust
the power consumed by over %500 with just brush movment. I just got the
UPS box for today, It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power
resistors
in it. On the dyno I can get a a 8" to pull 188 amps from a single
Optima Red top. The safts are NOT spinning very fast. More like
GROAnnnnn! And also this is just a bit less than %10 of what my amp
goals are.
Anybody know of nifty ways to measure the torque on a shaft without
using strain gages on the motor mounting base? There are some nifty
systems that transmit the torque data wireless to a nearby sensor, So
you don't have to touch the saft or motor, and you still get good data.
I am looking for a complete system, not some engineering required, I
have enough to build and design!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
AKA
"the other Seth"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power
resistors
in it.
Where did you get these and how much?
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rich,
There is a engineering calculation as:
1 ftlb per sec = 1.356 watts
(meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)
Also - FTLBS = (HP x 5252)/RPM
(HP is not the HP rating of motor, it is the results of Volts time
Amperage divided by 746)
After you run your load test to find out what the Voltage, Amperage and RPM,
you just could calculated each time.
If you or someone in your are is good in computer programming, you can enter
the values and the torque values will be read out.
I haven't set up my PC in computer programming lanquage because I can used
my old machine lanquage computer to do these calculations.
Here is a example of the program in MicroSoft Basic 7.0 (Easy to read for
this example)
10 scnclr:print
20 FB=0 : Rem Foot pounds
30 WT=0 : Rem Watts
40 HP=0 : Rem Horsepower
50 RPM=0: Rem Rotation Speed
60 AMP=0: Rem Ampere
70 VT=0 : Rem Voltage
80 PRINT "TORQUE DATA":PRINT
90 INPUT "ENTER AMPERE";AMP:PRINT
100 INPUT "ENTER VOLTAGE";VT:PRINT
110 INPUT "ENTER RPM";RPM:PRINT
120 HP=(AMP x VT)/746
130 FB=(HP x 5252)/RPM
140 PRINT "THE TORQUE IS "FB" AT "HP" HP AT "RPM" RPM"
150 PRINT
160 PRINT "PRESS ANY KEY FOR ANOTHER CALCULATION OR PRESS E TO END."
170 IF A$="E" THEN GOTO 190
180 IF A$<>"E" THEN GOTO 10
190 PRINT
200 PRINT "END PROGRAM": SCNCLR
If you can find someone that can convert this to fit your computer, which
may accept C+ or C++ language.
When you enter the voltage, ampere and rpm values, the torque value will be
calculated and give you a readout.
Also there are electronic interface equipment that can input this data go
give a read out. One company is Tektronix that has this equipment.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
> David Chapman wrote:
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 13, 2004 10:52 PM
> > Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
> >
> > > Rod Hower wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Rich,
> > > > Sounds like you need one of Ameteks blowers.
> > > > We were testing one today that puts out
> > > > 1300 CFM at 20 inches of H2O.
> > > > It's only 14 inches in diameter and 5" thick
> > > > not including the 3HP 230Vac drive motor at
> > > > 9,000 RPM.
> > > > Rod
> > > > Serious air
> > > >
> > > That's more than my buddie's SuperFlow 110 Flow Bench!!!
> > > I rather boil water, or recycle the watts.
> >
> > Rich, why not hook the blower in series with the load? That way you can
> > keep
> > your cool and not "waste" watts? DC.
>
> In series??? NOT a chance since the load is going up into the Multi
> 100kw range, In paralel maybe.
>
> But most of my power will recirculate back into the Batteries. Some of
> course will have to make some Nichrome glow, because I need the heat and
> What's a Dyno without some glowing melting parts???
> I DID get to it all bolted down and put together yesterday. And
> actually Got to load down a motor. 12 volts is boring....Adjustable
> brushes with some real world loading is rather eye opening. I can adjust
> the power consumed by over %500 with just brush movment. I just got the
> UPS box for today, It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power resistors
> in it. On the dyno I can get a a 8" to pull 188 amps from a single
> Optima Red top. The safts are NOT spinning very fast. More like
> GROAnnnnn! And also this is just a bit less than %10 of what my amp
> goals are.
>
> Anybody know of nifty ways to measure the torque on a shaft without
> using strain gages on the motor mounting base? There are some nifty
> systems that transmit the torque data wireless to a nearby sensor, So
> you don't have to touch the saft or motor, and you still get good data.
> I am looking for a complete system, not some engineering required, I
> have enough to build and design!
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> A gimbal mounted motor with a known lever arm and a load cell/ fish
> scale or similar device is pretty good. Non contact torques sensors
> like those from Himmelstein are not inexpensive. Like >$500 for a
> calibration, plus shipping truck freight. So you can imagine what the
> sensor costs. A strain gauge setup can be $150 for the gauge.
>
>
Thanks for the name Seth.
$500 for a cal Job.... shudder!
The strain gage idea get a lot clearer... Lets also keep in mind I want
to go to 1000 Ftlbs. 400 to 500 will do for now.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
>
> It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power
> resistors
> in it.
>
> Where did you get these and how much?
> Thanks,
> Rod
C and H surplus Tracked down with Google..com
$29.95 each one for each phase.... or all three for Zilla Work.
total on my card was $106.55
They look like they could take 250Kw for about 10 seconds....
In air....
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> Hello Rich,
>
> There is a engineering calculation as:
>
> 1 ftlb per sec = 1.356 watts
> (meaning 1 ftlb at 60 RPM takes 1.356 watts of energy)
>
> Also - FTLBS = (HP x 5252)/RPM
>
> (HP is not the HP rating of motor, it is the results of Volts time
> Amperage divided by 746)
>
> After you run your load test to find out what the Voltage, Amperage and RPM,
> you just could calculated each time.
>
> If you or someone in your are is good in computer programming, you can enter
> the values and the torque values will be read out.
>
> I haven't set up my PC in computer programming lanquage because I can used
> my old machine lanquage computer to do these calculations.
>
> Here is a example of the program in MicroSoft Basic 7.0 (Easy to read for
> this example)
>
> 10 scnclr:print
> 20 FB=0 : Rem Foot pounds
> 30 WT=0 : Rem Watts
> 40 HP=0 : Rem Horsepower
> 50 RPM=0: Rem Rotation Speed
> 60 AMP=0: Rem Ampere
> 70 VT=0 : Rem Voltage
> 80 PRINT "TORQUE DATA":PRINT
> 90 INPUT "ENTER AMPERE";AMP:PRINT
> 100 INPUT "ENTER VOLTAGE";VT:PRINT
> 110 INPUT "ENTER RPM";RPM:PRINT
> 120 HP=(AMP x VT)/746
> 130 FB=(HP x 5252)/RPM
> 140 PRINT "THE TORQUE IS "FB" AT "HP" HP AT "RPM" RPM"
> 150 PRINT
> 160 PRINT "PRESS ANY KEY FOR ANOTHER CALCULATION OR PRESS E TO END."
> 170 IF A$="E" THEN GOTO 190
> 180 IF A$<>"E" THEN GOTO 10
> 190 PRINT
> 200 PRINT "END PROGRAM": SCNCLR
>
> If you can find someone that can convert this to fit your computer, which
> may accept C+ or C++ language.
>
> When you enter the voltage, ampere and rpm values, the torque value will be
> calculated and give you a readout.
>
> Also there are electronic interface equipment that can input this data go
> give a read out. One company is Tektronix that has this equipment.
>
> Roland
>
>
thanks for the information Roland.
I want this data to arrive in my PC in AScci ready to load into
Excell.
I have various software packages, from the 20 year I have in the digital
world.
I also have Joe Smalley, who can do this stuff in his sleep.
The whole purpose of this effort is to show how brush timing effect DC
motors used in the far end of drag racing. And put some numbers on a lot
of folks pre held notions.
We are so wrong as to what is happening that it's gonna take some solid
numbers to get the majority of the racing crowd off it's butt and back
into going faster, and not just with better batteries and controllers,
but better motors.
I most certainly will record Amps and volts, that I can do already. RPM
is a no brainer, Getting torque with solid enough levels of confidence,
is NOT going to be cheap or easy.
I can program this Basic block into the calculator that I had in
college in the early 80s.
Getting Mega bytes of realtime data into a PC and displaying it is going
to take some effort.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.sendev.com/pr_large-cap-ro-torque.html
20,000 in-lb = 1667 ft-lb. Built-in speed sensor. Extremely small.
They were gone for the day so I couldn't get a price, though.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, February 16, 2004 4:17 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
> Seth wrote:
> >
> > A gimbal mounted motor with a known lever arm and a load cell/ fish
> > scale or similar device is pretty good. Non contact torques sensors
> > like those from Himmelstein are not inexpensive. Like >$500 for a
> > calibration, plus shipping truck freight. So you can
> imagine what the
> > sensor costs. A strain gauge setup can be $150 for the gauge.
> >
> >
> Thanks for the name Seth.
> $500 for a cal Job.... shudder!
>
> The strain gage idea get a lot clearer... Lets also keep in
> mind I want to go to 1000 Ftlbs. 400 to 500 will do for now.
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Conceptually, it's a chater pipe in reverse. So a 200lb strain gauge at
3 feet is 600 ft-lb. If a concentric axis for the lever is not easy,
you could calculate the force required to resist the torque if the axis
were under the feet of a foot mount motor for example. (On a pivot)
Then adjust the lever length based on torque anticipated. Every time
you use a new lever length, you would need a new calculation, but it's
not a bad tradeoff.
I haven't done this, but a guy who doesn't like Himmelsteins told me he
used this method and likes it.
Seth
On Feb 16, 2004, at 5:16 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Seth wrote:
A gimbal mounted motor with a known lever arm and a load cell/ fish
scale or similar device is pretty good. Non contact torques sensors
like those from Himmelstein are not inexpensive. Like >$500 for a
calibration, plus shipping truck freight. So you can imagine what the
sensor costs. A strain gauge setup can be $150 for the gauge.
Thanks for the name Seth.
$500 for a cal Job.... shudder!
The strain gage idea get a lot clearer... Lets also keep in mind I want
to go to 1000 Ftlbs. 400 to 500 will do for now.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
AKA
"the other Seth"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought 3 of the .110 ohm at $25.00 each.
They sent an email back that said $75.00,
no shipping or sales tax listed.
So I called to find out.
Talked to a rude sales guy that sounded like
a high school kid
'I don't know how much shipping cost, we
haven't packed it yet'
Anyhow, this guy rubbed me the wrong way.
I guess I could care less if I get the resistors
and they can handle 100Amps.
Rod
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> >
> > It had the .107 ohm @ 170 amp braking power
> > resistors
> > in it.
> >
> > Where did you get these and how much?
> > Thanks,
> > Rod
> C and H surplus Tracked down with Google..com
>
> $29.95 each one for each phase.... or all three for
> Zilla Work.
> total on my card was $106.55
>
> They look like they could take 250Kw for about 10
> seconds....
> In air....
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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David Brandt [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> http://www.sendev.com/pr_large-cap-ro-torque.html
>
> 20,000 in-lb = 1667 ft-lb. Built-in speed sensor. Extremely small.
>
> They were gone for the day so I couldn't get a price, though.
Some other possibilities:
<http://www.dqplus.com/edx.htm>
EDx-2.5k 2500lb-ft, 0.1%, 2 samples/sec, RS232 & 485. $1315.
Chatillon force guages offer RS232, 1000 samples/sec, but lower capacity
(500lb max unless an external load cell model is used, then 10,000lb
max). Same price league as the previous units ($1200-1400):
<http://www.scalesgalore.com/chforce.htm#gauges>
Strain guages/load cells are relatively cheap on their own (e.g. few
hundred bucks), but once you add the signal conditioning and data
acquisition to permit automatic logging by a PC, it looks like you are
right back into the $1200-1400 range again. e.g.:
<http://www.transducertechniques.com/TLL-Load-Cell.cfm> 3000lbs sensor
for $265
<http://www.transducertechniques.com/DAQ-16122-PCI.cfm> data acquisition
PCI card package $1425 and up.
Mount the load absorbing alternator such that its case can rotate, then
use something like the EDx-2.5K force guage on a lever arm that puts it
12" from the shaft centerline to resist that rotation (in tension) and
you're in business.
For a bit less money ($995) you could go with the EDjr
<http://www.dqplus.com/edjr.htm> and resign yourself to recording the
torque values manually from its LCD display.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just saw a couple really nifty electric bikes at Pep Boys, wondered if
anyone else had seen them? One is a small electric "Chopper" style with
small go kart type tires, a nice looking telescopic FE and supposedly a 500
watt motor. Ape hangers and a nice seat too. Only bummer is you need to be
about 5'6 to ride one and not look or feel like a total ass. $ 399.00 + tax.
The other one says Scoot-N-Go on the front but it is nothing like the ones
Checker and the other chains have nor is it like the Scoot-N-Gos on the
web. This one is more like a moped with pedals, 20" alloy mag wheels and
what appears to be an AC hubmotor in the rear wheel. Very nice aero body
work and even a trunk. $ 439.00 Gotta tell ya I was sorely tempted by the
moped version. Looks like a perfect campus/commuter or grocery getter. And
of course no manufacturers info anywhere, even the doc manual. Most it said
was "Made in China". Anyone else see or have any feedback on these? David
Chapman.
--- End Message ---
