EV Digest 3364
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) EPower Engineering Opportunity at John Deere
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Electric Snowmobile Story
by "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) OFA NiMH S-10's
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Panasonic Prizmatic batteries
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 20k$ for a '98 s10
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Electric Snowmobile Story
by "Christopher Meier" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) unsubscribe
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 20k$ for a '98 s10
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Kinda off topic...sorta
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Kinda off topic...sorta
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Kinda off topic...sorta
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) electric Caravan for sale
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EDN EV monitoring circuit
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: EDN EV monitoring circuit
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) battery charging Idea
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: EDN EV monitoring circuit
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Dyno equipment WAS: Carbon pile? and blowers
by Robert Brooks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) RE: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: seeking: an escoot that can fold for travel
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Which issue is this? The latest issue I have is February 5th and it's
not in there.
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 18, 2004, at 12:17 PM, Rod Hower wrote:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/
Look in 'design ideas'
or if you get EDN magazine it's on page 83.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Feb 19, I just received it today.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Which issue is this? The latest issue I have is
> February 5th and it's
> not in there.
>
> Alex Karahalios
>
> On Feb 18, 2004, at 12:17 PM, Rod Hower wrote:
>
> > http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/
> > Look in 'design ideas'
> > or if you get EDN magazine it's on page 83.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
There is an Electrical Engineering opportunity available at John Deere at
their ePower Division. The position would involve working on off-road
"vehicle electrification" projects according to hiring manager Chris DeRoo.
http://careers.hodes.com/john_deere/job_detail.asp?JobID=90ENG334
Contact Chris De Roo at [EMAIL PROTECTED] for more information.
I believe this opportunity is in Charlotte, North Carolina.
Chip Gribben
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
NEDRA Power of DC Webmaster
http://www.powerofdc.com
EVA/DC Webmaster
http://www.evadc.org
Heinzmann USA Webmaster
http://www.heinzmannusa.com
ScooterWerks Scooter Repair Webmaster
http://www.scooterwerks.com
SkooterCommuter Webmaster
http://www.skootercommuter.com
DigiZone Designs Website and Graphic Design
http://www.digizonedesigns.com
144-volt Escort
24-volt dual motor Schwinn Missile
Elec-Trak E-10
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today it's a balmy 70 degrees outside here near Denver, but I know that
many on this list still have tons of snow to play with.
For those of you who have ever wondered what an electric snowmobile
might be like, check out Monte Gisborne's NiCad-powered project...
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=66
Has anyone else done something like this?
Cheers,
-Dave Stensland
Megawatt Motorworks, LLC
http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I get mine delivered electronically - I guess electronics delivery is
much slower than snail mail ;)
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 18, 2004, at 1:59 PM, Rod Hower wrote:
Feb 19, I just received it today.
--- Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Which issue is this? The latest issue I have is
February 5th and it's
not in there.
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 18, 2004, at 12:17 PM, Rod Hower wrote:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/
Look in 'design ideas'
or if you get EDN magazine it's on page 83.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did anyone on-list buy one of the 1998 NiMH S-10's at the OFA auction in Davis, CA
today? I'm curious as to how much they fetched.
Richard
1981 Jet Electrica
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/474.html
--------------------------------------
Protect yourself from spam,
use http://sneakemail.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> Recharge? I was talking about discharge. Like the goofy internal
> resistance that seems to be associated with lithium. Remember Victor's
> 90Ah thundersky pack that would do like 90A before hitting the low
> voltage limit at 2.5V? Or maybe it was even less current than that. I
> don't remember. Victor is working on a
> super/mega/wicked/gnarly-capacitor bank for power in parallel, last I
> heard.
>
> Seth
Yes, I do work on it. 90Ah cells sag about 1.1V per 100A at
room temp. Mind you, 100A is very plenty for high voltage
EV like mine. These batteries are NOT too good choice for a
120V drive system unless it is a light car and you're talking about
200Ah cells.
90Ah is undersized battery for a car. Capacity wise
it is plenty, but stressed by high current.
100Ah is absolute minimum for a light car unless you
use hybrid pack (lead or ultracaps to handle peak power).
200Ah is about right current wise.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I just returned to Reno from the California vehicle auction.... Still
in shock over the two 1998 s10 gm oem trucks auctioned off . The one
that would move went for $20 k and the one that was dead went for $ 13k
. A _WHOLE_ lotta bucks, even though they had the EV1 power train and
Ovionics NiMh packs both with dead and or sick batts. Oh well I guess
this just goes to show "no one wants bev s" is just a wishfull political
statement of Big Oil..... LOL. Bill
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There's some info on that relay on this page:
http://www.fairchildsemiconductor.com/whats_new/ssr_nph.html
Richard
-----Original Message-----
From: Rod Hower
>I also couldn't find anything on Fairchilds
>web site for the HSR412.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
No, but I've wanted to...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Stensland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 3:01 PM
Subject: Electric Snowmobile Story
> Today it's a balmy 70 degrees outside here near Denver, but I know that
> many on this list still have tons of snow to play with.
>
> For those of you who have ever wondered what an electric snowmobile
> might be like, check out Monte Gisborne's NiCad-powered project...
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com/display.asp?dismode=article&artid=66
>
> Has anyone else done something like this?
>
> Cheers,
> -Dave Stensland
> Megawatt Motorworks, LLC
> http://www.megawattmotorworks.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > The State bill would require all motorized scooters to be registered and
> > licensed and would require a drivers license to operate them. This would
> > effectively take all of the scooters that children opened for Christmas
> > last year away from them. And I can't imagine a little 10mph Viza Volt
> > with a license plate on it.
> >
> > Licensing is required for larger vehicles in order to ensure safe designs
> > and to help pay for roads and etc. While safety for scooters is certainly
> > an issue, 90+ percent of electric scooters don't go fast enough to
> > represent a huge safety issue -- ie. they don't go as fast as a bicycle,
> > and no faster than a person in decent shape can run.
> >
Before you go making knee jerk reactions to potential laws and
statements about how safe scooters are because YOU don't "think" they
are a safety issue, you might want to check accident stats for your
state.
I don't know about Washington, but I found some statistics from other
states that passed scooter laws because they were having in excess of
1,000 scooter related emergency room visits, per year...per COUNTY.
FWIW dozens (hundreds?) of children die every year from falling off
their bicycles at speeds below 10 mph.
>From what I've seen scooters are more dangerous than bicycles,i.e. more
accidents with more damage. That's just a personal observation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before you go making knee jerk reactions to potential laws and
statements about how safe scooters are because YOU don't "think" they
are a safety issue, you might want to check accident stats for your
state.
You need to check stats at the NTSB. Foot scooter related injuries and
deaths are not even a blip on the radar when compared with bicycles,
roller blades, and other common child toys. They are new, and as a new
item are grabbing headlines around the country. The legislation in
Washington and else where is a knee jerk reaction to statistically minor
(when compared to bikes and blades) number of injuries and deaths among
children.
Further, most foot scooters are much slower than most bicycles. They are
closer to the ground (less impact on a fall), and are easier to "bail"
off of in anticipation of a crash when compared to a bicycle. I strongly
believe that scooters are much safer than bicycles, and the statistics
back me up.
Let's keep things in perspective here.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The most dangerous thing I
do on a daily basis is get in my car and drive
to work. Everytime I pass a cement truck I shudder,
because I know there is 4-6 feet area of imminent
death. 42,000 people die in car wrecks per year,
Americans have no problem with this. My chances of
getting killed by a 'terrorist' is 10 times less
likely than getting struck by lightning.
I think common sense is the rule, but often not
the path taken. If you have a problem with the safety
of an electric scooter than keep your kids from using
them. If you have common sense and allow them to use
them in appropriate riding areas, then no problem.
If you have a problem with this, walk your kids while
holding their hands, the car is much more dangerous.
Rod
--- Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Before you go making knee jerk reactions to
> potential laws and
> > statements about how safe scooters are because YOU
> don't "think" they
> > are a safety issue, you might want to check
> accident stats for your
> > state.
>
> You need to check stats at the NTSB. Foot scooter
> related injuries and
> deaths are not even a blip on the radar when
> compared with bicycles,
> roller blades, and other common child toys. They are
> new, and as a new
> item are grabbing headlines around the country. The
> legislation in
> Washington and else where is a knee jerk reaction to
> statistically minor
> (when compared to bikes and blades) number of
> injuries and deaths among
> children.
>
> Further, most foot scooters are much slower than
> most bicycles. They are
> closer to the ground (less impact on a fall), and
> are easier to "bail"
> off of in anticipation of a crash when compared to a
> bicycle. I strongly
> believe that scooters are much safer than bicycles,
> and the statistics
> back me up.
>
> Let's keep things in perspective here.
>
> -Ken Trough
> http://visforvoltage.com
> 24 hour AIM - ktrough
> 24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2004-02-18 at 19:59, Ken Trough wrote:
> > Before you go making knee jerk reactions to potential laws and
> > statements about how safe scooters are because YOU don't "think" they
> > are a safety issue, you might want to check accident stats for your
> > state.
>
> You need to check stats at the NTSB. Foot scooter related injuries and
> deaths are not even a blip on the radar when compared with bicycles,
> roller blades, and other common child toys.
Sorry, I ment to say motorized scooters, though foot powered scooter can
be dangerous because parents think they are "safe" so they don't make
their kids wear helmets and pads.
> They are new, and as a new
> item are grabbing headlines around the country. The legislation in
> Washington and else where is a knee jerk reaction to statistically minor
> (when compared to bikes and blades) number of injuries and deaths among
> children.
>
Thousands of injuries are not "statistically minor"
I couldn't find anything recent, this is about two years out of date:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/news/donora/s_157240.html
> Further, most foot scooters are much slower than most bicycles. They are
> closer to the ground (less impact on a fall), and are easier to "bail"
> off of in anticipation of a crash when compared to a bicycle.
They are also less stale (virtually no gyroscopic stability)
> I strongly
> believe that scooters are much safer than bicycles, and the statistics
> back me up.
That could be true, can you post the statistics to back up this statement?
What I've seen is that kids riding motorized scooters tend to do stupid
stuff (they are kids after all) I see them darting out between parked
cars, crossing streets without looking, etc. AND darn near running over
people on sidewalks. True kids do this on bicycles too, I've just seen
more doing it on scooters (at least around here)
The other thing I've seen is that while almost 1/2 the kids I see on
bikes are wearing helmets, almost none of the kids on motorized scooters
wear them.
If you all feel that 8 year olds riding motorized scooters, at 10-15
mph, in and out of traffic, is perfectly safe...well that's your
opinion. I disagree and I don't see any problems with people passing
laws to restrict this.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
woa... or wow.
If I wasn't so far away I would have been there... and prepared for bids
in the thousands, but not 10's of thousands. I was thinking what better
way to get a great glider and hopefully some re-usable electric goodies.
Hope the buyers have a way to get needed parts and keep these on the
road. At least it makes the major cost of a high-end conversion seem
more reasonable.
And yes, does disprove the "no one wants bev's" claim.
wow.
William Brinsmead wrote:
> Hi folks,
> I just returned to Reno from the California vehicle auction.... Still
> in shock over the two 1998 s10 gm oem trucks auctioned off . The one
> that would move went for $20 k and the one that was dead went for $ 13k
> . A _WHOLE_ lotta bucks, even though they had the EV1 power train and
> Ovionics NiMh packs both with dead and or sick batts. Oh well I guess
> this just goes to show "no one wants bev s" is just a wishfull political
> statement of Big Oil..... LOL. Bill
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thousands of injuries are not "statistically minor" I couldn't find
anything recent, this is about two years out of date:
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/news/donora/s_157240.html
A newspaper account (typically inflamed to get more readers) is not
worth quoting as a confirmed statistic.
When I said "foot scooters" I meant motorized.
If you all feel that 8 year olds riding motorized scooters, at 10-15
mph, in and out of traffic, is perfectly safe...well that's your
opinion. I disagree and I don't see any problems with people passing
laws to restrict this.
This is a failure of parents to monitor their kids, not an issue that
requires legislation. I don't think that anyone is advocating 8 year old
kids riding in and out of traffic on escooters. This type of riding is
already currently illegal. There is no need for further legislation. If
the police are not enforcing current law, why do you think they will
enforce new ones.
I'll see if I can dig up some stats (again) on motorized scooter
accidents vs. bicycles and rollerblades. The last stats I saw the
motorized scooters were a very small percentage of total child injuries
when compared with bicycles, roller blades, and skateboards. My point is
that there is no call to outlaw bicycles, blades or boards, so there
should be no law against escooters.
While some would argue that ANY child injuries are too much, I think
that if we decide as a society to allow children to take calculated
risks, we shouldn't single out escooters as especially dangerous when
they are not.
Where are the parents? Why are they allowing their kids to ride without
helmets and in traffic?? That is the real crime. The parents should be
ticketed for this lack of oversight of their young children. Let's put
the responsibility where it belongs, with the parents.
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, that is it.
The problem with a single load cell is that the weight of the motor will
create a common mode bias in the reading. If you assume that one load cell
is carrying a fixed percentage of the generator weight, then the single load
cell will be accurate enough.
The advantage of the single or dual load cell is that the generator can be
suspended with only one bearing therefore it is not necessary to have a dual
shaft motor.
The weight of the front end of the motor needs to be carried by some method.
Two heim joint struts mounted 90 degrees to each other can carry the weight
but allow the motor to free rotate. If this was done at both ends, a torque
arm can be mounted to the motor so a single load cell can measure the
torque. This is an alternative to using pillow blocks.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 18, 2004 7:27 AM
Subject: RE: Carbon pile? and blowers
> I like the twin arms and two load cells. If you are cheap I think you
could
> use a single load cell on one arm and double the reading with out a great
> loss of accuracy.
>
> How about the torque arms mounted to the generator at about the balance
> point (of the generator). The shaft of the generator rigid coupled to a
> short shaft. A single self aligning pillow block bearing on that shaft as
> close to the generator as possible, it could even be a bigger bearing on
the
> rigid coupler. Then from the short shaft to the test motor use a roller
> chain or gear and sleeve coupling so that the test motors do not have to
be
> perfectly aligned.
> Test motor is supported by whatever type of mounting it needs.
> Generator is supported by the pillow block bearing and the two load cells.
> Very simple to build, and the torque readings would have very little error
> from off center pivots. May want to wrap a scatter blanket around it the
> first few times you take it to a new max.
> Is that something like what you had in mind?
>
> Andre' B.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Joe Smalley
> Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2004 11:34 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Carbon pile? and blowers
>
> > You could use one hard mount under or above the shaft and two load cells
> > to
> > either side of the shaft. If the load cells were both compression and
> > tension type, they can be hooked up so their outputs are subtracted
> > (differential mode) to read the torque. If the load cells have a high
> > modulus, they would appear to be solid while supporting the motor (or
> > generator) but would still read the torque.
> >
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking for suggestions on what voltage and controller
to use to run an ADC 9 inch motor in a (ahem) very
large blender. I need enough torque to break ice
cubes(blocks) into smoothies. I was thinking of using
a Z1K at 240 volts. the blade will be about 36 inches
in diameter with a 4 to 1 reduction.
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Smoothies my butt, sounds like a Burning Man Margarita/Dacquari maker. How
are you going to meter the tequila and lime or mixers? Anyway I would think
you might study a garbage disposal impeller and check out the swinging bats
as well as using a blade, might make it less susceptable to jamming. Bats to
break up the chunks, blade to pulverize. Best make the can walls thick.
Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:07 AM
Subject: Kinda off topic...sorta
> Looking for suggestions on what voltage and controller
> to use to run an ADC 9 inch motor in a (ahem) very
> large blender. I need enough torque to break ice
> cubes(blocks) into smoothies. I was thinking of using
> a Z1K at 240 volts. the blade will be about 36 inches
> in diameter with a 4 to 1 reduction.
>
> Gadget
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
actually we're thinking about a ton of bananas and 5
gallon chunks of ice cream....
Gadget
--- David Chapman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Smoothies my butt, sounds like a Burning Man
> Margarita/Dacquari maker. How
> are you going to meter the tequila and lime or
> mixers? Anyway I would think
> you might study a garbage disposal impeller and
> check out the swinging bats
> as well as using a blade, might make it less
> susceptable to jamming. Bats to
> break up the chunks, blade to pulverize. Best make
> the can walls thick.
> Regards, David Chapman.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:07 AM
> Subject: Kinda off topic...sorta
>
>
> > Looking for suggestions on what voltage and
> controller
> > to use to run an ADC 9 inch motor in a (ahem) very
> > large blender. I need enough torque to break ice
> > cubes(blocks) into smoothies. I was thinking of
> using
> > a Z1K at 240 volts. the blade will be about 36
> inches
> > in diameter with a 4 to 1 reduction.
> >
> > Gadget
> >
> > =====
> > visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
> >
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=326310&convertTo=USD
Just had this forwarded to me if anyone is interesed
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken Trough wrote:
> > If you all feel that 8 year olds riding motorized
> scooters, at 10-15
> > mph, in and out of traffic, is perfectly safe...well that's your
> > opinion. I disagree and I don't see any problems with
> people passing
> > laws to restrict this.
>
> This is a failure of parents to monitor their kids, not an issue that
> requires legislation. I don't think that anyone is advocating
> 8 year old
> kids riding in and out of traffic on escooters. This type of
> riding is
> already currently illegal. There is no need for further
> legislation. If
> the police are not enforcing current law, why do you think they will
> enforce new ones.
>
> I'll see if I can dig up some stats (again) on motorized scooter
> accidents vs. bicycles and rollerblades. The last stats I saw the
> motorized scooters were a very small percentage of total
> child injuries
> when compared with bicycles, roller blades, and skateboards.
> My point is
> that there is no call to outlaw bicycles, blades or boards, so there
> should be no law against escooters.
Hi Ken,
Yes, real stats would be very helpful. I hope you can dig some up. I
see the scooter biz as a potentially big benefit for EVs in general, and
I'd hate to see it limited by legislation for no good reason.
Looking only at the most obvious facts, it can be argued that scooters
should be treated very much like bicycles. Their performance envelopes
are very similar. Their traffic "footprints" are similar. Just make
all the bicycle laws apply to scooters and everything should be fine.
Except for the fact that there *are* some very important differences
between the two. First and foremost, scooters are new. They don't have
the centuries of history behind them that bikes do. When I was a kid
the local PD had bicycle safety classes. Everyone grows up knowing how
a bicycle should be used and how it should not.
Along comes the e-scooter (and those foul gas scooters). Any
six-year-old on a good scooter can zip along at speeds that only a
fairly well-conditioned bicyclist can maintain. The scooter is more
compact, maneuverable, and (best of all) powered, so kids will naturally
find the limits. They're kids after all. The problem is that with
powered scooters, the limits are determined by the scooter - not the
kid.
You're absolutely right, parents are the answer. But they can only be
effective if they are educated right along with the kids. *Both*
parents and kids must be educated. As it stands now, many parents buy
their kid a scooter with no more forethought than buying them a video
game.
I believe Personal Electric Vehicles (PEVs) have the potential to make a
huge impact on how people get around. The Segway was the first step in
this direction. Dean Kamen took a thoroughly offensive Bill-Gates-style
approach to it by trying to exclude all competitors, but the cat is
beginning to stick its nose out of the bag. Growth in the scooter biz
is very rapid.
I encourage everyone to take a look at their local laws and see if they
make sense - that is, they reflect reality as backed up by solid data.
Get involved if you think the laws are skewed. This is generally a
local issue, so you really can make a difference. People respond to the
image of kids causing problems and getting hurt, but it's harder to see
the potential benefits that e-scooters can bring to a community. Let's
try to make e-scoots a viable part of the transportation landscape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the link for the EDN article on battery monitoring which I
stumbled on, wrongly labeled on their site:
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/contents/images/21904di.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm getting jaded or something....
The first thing I noticed was the figure shows a "300 V, 100 A" battery
pack which makes a 30 KW drive system. Kinda wimpy even for a small car.
Or maybe they meant 100 Ahr, which makes a 30 KWH battery pack which
would be sweet. But this is a sidetrack from the point of the article,
which is an application of a new solid state relay.
There doesn't seem to be any safety net in case the steering logic goes
nuts and turns on multiple relays at the same time shorting out several
cells. Since these are low current devices, the relay itself would
likely become the fuse before any thing really bad (fire) happened.
Of course since these are low current devices, they can't be used to
charge the cell(s) found to be in trouble. Probably why titled as a
"monitoring" rather than "balancing" system.
Saying "the V(N) to V(N+1) potential to chassis ground ranges from 2 to
300 V" doesn't makes sense to me as the pack should be isolated from the
chassis. I also don't understand the point of the optoisolators in the 8
lines going to the decoders. It leaves the 74154's needing another
(isolated) power supply. Hmmmm...
I'll stop now and just take it as a pointer to a new product that could
be handy.
fred whitridge wrote:
>
http://www.reed-electronics.com/ednmag/contents/images/21904di.pdf
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, the current scooter law in Washington state does treat
electric motorized scooters as bicycles, and treats gas scoots a bit
more restrictively due to noise and *ahem* greater speeds. I know,
because the local city police in Snohomish had a bit of an attitude with
one of my gas powered board riding friends
(an adult firefighter using his gas board to ride on the street to, then
from the market). So I started carrying a printout of the appropriate
legal definitions in my helmet when I got the Currie to ride to and from
the firestation to work.
Traded the currie - got bit by the bug and need "MORE POWER". Thinking
I'll have to build some kind of E-assist recumbent bike now until I get
the car finished.
Kevin Coughlin - Snohomish WA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Tromley
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:28 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
Ken Trough wrote:
> > If you all feel that 8 year olds riding motorized
> scooters, at 10-15
> > mph, in and out of traffic, is perfectly safe...well that's your
> > opinion. I disagree and I don't see any problems with
> people passing
> > laws to restrict this.
>
> This is a failure of parents to monitor their kids, not an issue that
> requires legislation. I don't think that anyone is advocating
> 8 year old
> kids riding in and out of traffic on escooters. This type of
> riding is
> already currently illegal. There is no need for further
> legislation. If
> the police are not enforcing current law, why do you think they will
> enforce new ones.
>
> I'll see if I can dig up some stats (again) on motorized scooter
> accidents vs. bicycles and rollerblades. The last stats I saw the
> motorized scooters were a very small percentage of total
> child injuries
> when compared with bicycles, roller blades, and skateboards.
> My point is
> that there is no call to outlaw bicycles, blades or boards, so there
> should be no law against escooters.
Hi Ken,
Yes, real stats would be very helpful. I hope you can dig some up. I
see the scooter biz as a potentially big benefit for EVs in general, and
I'd hate to see it limited by legislation for no good reason.
Looking only at the most obvious facts, it can be argued that scooters
should be treated very much like bicycles. Their performance envelopes
are very similar. Their traffic "footprints" are similar. Just make
all the bicycle laws apply to scooters and everything should be fine.
Except for the fact that there *are* some very important differences
between the two. First and foremost, scooters are new. They don't have
the centuries of history behind them that bikes do. When I was a kid
the local PD had bicycle safety classes. Everyone grows up knowing how
a bicycle should be used and how it should not.
Along comes the e-scooter (and those foul gas scooters). Any
six-year-old on a good scooter can zip along at speeds that only a
fairly well-conditioned bicyclist can maintain. The scooter is more
compact, maneuverable, and (best of all) powered, so kids will naturally
find the limits. They're kids after all. The problem is that with
powered scooters, the limits are determined by the scooter - not the
kid.
You're absolutely right, parents are the answer. But they can only be
effective if they are educated right along with the kids. *Both*
parents and kids must be educated. As it stands now, many parents buy
their kid a scooter with no more forethought than buying them a video
game.
I believe Personal Electric Vehicles (PEVs) have the potential to make a
huge impact on how people get around. The Segway was the first step in
this direction. Dean Kamen took a thoroughly offensive Bill-Gates-style
approach to it by trying to exclude all competitors, but the cat is
beginning to stick its nose out of the bag. Growth in the scooter biz
is very rapid.
I encourage everyone to take a look at their local laws and see if they
make sense - that is, they reflect reality as backed up by solid data.
Get involved if you think the laws are skewed. This is generally a
local issue, so you really can make a difference. People respond to the
image of kids causing problems and getting hurt, but it's harder to see
the potential benefits that e-scooters can bring to a community. Let's
try to make e-scoots a viable part of the transportation landscape.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
With a yard full of batteries , I was thinking about ways to keep them
healthy and had this idea. A device with dpdt rely that would switch the out
put of each form + to - , . a voltage sense set up ( some comparers ) to
sense full ( say 7.5 v ) and empty ( say 5.25 ) . When a battery reaches
one or the other threshold voltages the dpdt would switch and the battery's
polarity would change it in the string of batteries being charged .example
20 golf carters in series ( this would be the outputs of the relays sitting
on the batteries that would be hooked in series not right to the batteries )
. all batteries start off charging. when the first one reached 7.5 v the
device would switch the polarity and start discharging that one battery
back into the string . There would have to be some kind of current limiting
on the charger that would keep a steady ,say 5 amps output , the charger
would have to be able to handle the load changing as different batteries
went for charging to discharging . With this series string of batteries
all connected each one with its own relay , charging and discharging to its
own ability . once the thing got going and some batteries were charging and
other discharging it wouldn't require a lot of watts for the charger, It
would be using the electricy form the batteries being discharged to charged
the others . The input from the charger could at times be very low or under
certain conductions ( if all batteries got charged and went into discharge
mode) just be a load. Could be done with a diode across the charger to
bypass the current when output of battery string got higher the charger?.The
charger could be just some lights or a big coil with a bad boy. If you've
read this and are thinking how would this work in a car than I haven't
explained it right as charging or discharging could never go over the dpdt
relay amp rating . This if for batteries that are just sitting around .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the main point is that Fairchild Semi recognizes the huge potential
market for these SSR devices in the 2v Li-Ion EV application. Note that the
author of that article wasn't an Average Joe EV enthusiast, but a Fairchild
employee.
What I wonder is how many millivolts error do you get across one of these
SSRs.
Sure, the 500us turn-on time may be important, but millivolts of error
across the device is equally or more critical if used in a measuring
application.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This might be a start.
http://www.engineeringtalk.com/news/set/set111.html
Bob\
Bob Brooks
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
"It takes courage to grow up and turn out to be who you really are."
- ee cummings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Kevin Coughlin wrote:
> Actually, the current scooter law in Washington state does
> treat electric motorized scooters as bicycles, and treats gas
> scoots a bit more restrictively due to noise and *ahem*
> greater speeds. I know, because the local city police in
> Snohomish had a bit of an attitude with one of my gas powered
> board riding friends (an adult firefighter using his gas
> board to ride on the street to, then from the market). So I
> started carrying a printout of the appropriate legal
> definitions in my helmet when I got the Currie to ride to and
> from the firestation to work.
>
> Traded the currie - got bit by the bug and need "MORE POWER".
> Thinking I'll have to build some kind of E-assist recumbent
> bike now until I get the car finished.
Hi Kevin,
The easy approach would be to simply lump e-scoots in with bicycles, but
I think that negates some important advantages of the e-scoot - both for
the scootist and the community. I personally believe e-scoots should be
allowed on sidewalks, *provided* they observe an aggressively enforced
speed limit of maybe 5 mph when in the vicinity of pedestrians or
doorways opening onto the sidewalk. 5 mph is a fast walking pace, so it
allows scootists to make good time around pedestrians without putting
anyone at unnecessary risk.
If you're on a sidewalk and there are no pedestrians, doorways or
driveways around, crank it up to a maximum of 15 mph. This is a fast
running pace, similar to a roller-blader in a hurry. Allowing this
would keep people (bicyclists too) out of the street where the cars are
going just too fast.
When riding in the street, e-scoots should be limited to 20 mph. This
is roughly the same as the cruising speed of a pretty good bicyclist. I
have almost no personal experience with e-scoots, but I believe this is
about the upper limit for stand-up scooters. The short wheelbase and
high placement of the rider make stopping quickly rather tricky. Those
with experience please correct me if I'm wrong. I would very much like
to see a stopping distance comparison between a runner, a car, a roller
blader, a bicyclist, a Segway rider and an e-scootist from 15 mph. I'm
guessing the Segway would do the worst.
The point is to make sure the benefits of e-scoots are allowed to be
exploited. I think the e-scoot industry would be doing itself a very
big favor by adding a switch that limits speed to 5 mph. That way the
rider can set it there and not get into trouble near pedestrians. It
would be very easy to implement. If the whole industry did it,
municipalities would be much more inclined to see e-scoots as a positive
influence. Sales would increase, and EVs would get better press.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This one is $300. Lawrence Rhodes....
Message: 20
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 06:26:24 -0000
From: "zenderfall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Pukka came in yesterday.....test rides
I got the Pukka yesterday, thanks to Danny Doris and Largo Scooters.
That was pretty fast shipping, ordered on Friday got it on the
following Tuesday, delivered from Salt Lake City Utah.
Anyway, this scoot is strange. For me, I've ridden the EX3, HCF707, a
few Boreems, a couple gassers, and a GMB 1500x, and this is very much
different from the rest.
The construction of the frame is excellent, as well as heavy. It is
made of welded steel, and quite strong. The finish seems more painted
than powder-coated, since after pulling some stickers off the paint
came off with it. I've known powder-coating to be more durable.
While the frame is strong and heavy, the bike-parts are a little on
the lower end. The brake levers are all plastic, the handlebar grips
are hard rubber, and the quick-release seat adjuster is a cheap
aluminum which I bent and broke trying to tighten the seat down.
I really like the tubeless tires, that's definately something I'm not
used to seeing on scooters. I did have a hard time trying to get a
tire inflator into the rear wheel though.
Most of the screws are metric allen screws. 98% of the scooter was
assembled. Only the handlebar and footpegs need to be installed out
of the box, and those are done with the included allen wrenches. I
took off the rear battery cover and noticed that there are two 12V
18AH batteries, contrary to the 20AH batteries claimed. surprisingly,
after I hooked up the batteries to the charger, they got to full
charge in less than a half hour. These battteries must be fresh! One
thing to note: The box came with a bright yellow slip that said to
remove an air extension on the rear wheel before riding. I found it
easily and removed it. I can understand what would've happened had I
left it there and rode with it-basically a tube extension that the
manufacturing plant forgot in the scooter after they filled the rear
tire. It was nice of the importers to recognize the problem and
address it. Way to go Pukka!
Riding this thing was definately a new experience. It does NOT ride
like a motorcycle, scooter, or a bicycle. The reason for this is the
little wheels. I found out from minute one that holding onto
handlebars tightly is a must. Due to the smaller wheels and the rake
angle, the steering is very sensitive, and a bump or a pothole will
throw the handlebar side to side quite violently. There is not enough
gyro motion in the front wheel for stability. I now see the added
benefits of larger wheels.
The handlebars are a little low, even for a small guy like me. I'm
5'4" and think that the handlebar should be raised about 2 or 3 inches
higher.
The speed and acceleration is quite fast, and I clocked around 20 on
the GPS. I weigh 130 lbs. (lightweight) The chain drive is noisier
than the belt driven 707, the friction drive 1500x, but nowhere near
as loud as a gasser. The shock, being a cheaper brand, has no damping
on it, and every bump hit causes a slight bouncing motion on the seat.
It is quite fun for its price, and definately worth it. While it does
not have a battery level indicator, disc or V-brake (it has only 1
rear band brake) its speed and fun factor are definately there.
Whatever cheap parts it came with can definately be upgraded easily.
That's what I'm going to do next to this machine, as it is definately
a keeper.
We have some steep hills here, but I'll have to try those out later as
it is starting to rain here. What a bummer.
I included pics of close-ups of the machine and U/Led them into the
PUKKA folder.
--- End Message ---
