EV Digest 3366
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EDN EV monitoring circuit
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Kevin Coughlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: battery charging Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: "Universal" motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV Caravan For Sale
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery charging Idea
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) article: Electric cars: China's hope to catch up with advanced auto
makers
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: battery charging Idea
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV Caravan For Sale
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: battery charging Idea
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: battery charging Idea
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Unsubscribe
by Joseph M Weber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21)
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: EV Caravan For Sale
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) MAPC/Solectria/eMotion parts arrived today.
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> How about using a Rotary Stepping Switch, instead of using relays
> for batery pack monitoring or balancing.
Sure, they would work fine. You'd have to make sure it had sufficient
voltage and current ratings for the application. Life expectancy might
also be a problem in an automotive environment.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Yes, I was about to type response to suggest very the same thing.
> Having such a relay 100% ensures you never ever have two
> relays turn on simultaneously - you simply don't have two
> relays. You have only one, thus no need for double-tripple
> protection as for multiple normal relays (like in LEe's circuit).
> Disadvantages would be - such a relay is bulky and harder to find
> with suitable rating, and it cannot pick the battery at
> random, it will do it in sequence only. Also, settling on particular
> battery requires counter for steps, but since BS is used anyway,
> it is no harder to implement it than multi-relay solution.
>
> These relays use to be used in telephone industry in before-computers
> era (70's I guess).
And still are! They've been in use for close to 100 years.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had a very simple solution for this problem on my
Honkin' ass F350 diesel (no longer own it -don't
worry). I lived in Thunder Bay, Ontario, and we
frequenly got weeks in a row when the temp (without
windchill) was constantly between -30 and -40C
Diesels don't like to start period, so they HAVE to be
plugged in when it's that cold. I ripped my cord a
few times and came up with at 2cent solution. Actually
it was free - and was quick & easy enough to install
when it was -30. Never harmed a cord since. I very
tightly zip-tied the cord for the block heater to the
front grill of the truck, with the prongs pointing
straight forward. I zip-tied around the plug portion,
not the wires. I then tied the xt-cord to the fence
directly infront of the truck. This did two things;
one, I HAD to remove the cord in order to get to the
drivers door as it would have clotheslined me at about
waist height. Secondly, IF for some reason, I managed
to get around the cord (brushing snow off sometimes
went around the back) as soon as I started backing up,
the plug would slip out. (I know I know, you should
never pull a plug out by it's cord... but I wasn't
doing it on purpose!) If I was still using this
system today, I would mount the extention cord on a
piece of heavy gauge wire rope, that was a shorter
length than the cord, that way the pull would go on
the wire rope, instead of the electrical wires.
The auto eject plugs are also a great invention, and
it shouldn't be that hard to make one yourself by
wiring a relay into your "ignition" to power a
solenoid to fire out your plug.
We have a catalouge at work that has them in it, so if
you need a source ask me and I'll look and see which
catalouge it was.
HTH,
Bruce
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Coughlin wrote:
>
> > On the ambulance I drive - we plug it in the
> moment we park it. Hmmmm.... EVERY
> > vehicle at the fire station has to be plugged in -
> I guess they aren't hybrids
> > *grin*. Anyway.....
> >
> > The socket has a little solenoid, and if you
> forget to pull out the plug when
> > you get in, once you turn the key it goes "thunk"
> and auto-ejects the plug for
> > you. Not good to rely on all the time..... but
> helpful for when you forget.
> > It's pretty embarassing to be driving down the
> road, lights and siren, dragging
> > a 50 foot extension cord......
> >
> > Maybe that would help - and the socket is DESIGNED
> for automotive use.
> >
>
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution
> is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming
> but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
>
> Solenoid solution above complicates things and still
> may fail.
>
> I really like the solution I saw for OEM VW
> CitySTROMer EV:
> it carries coiled cord in the small compartment
> behind
> front license plate, and you not only have to unplug
> the other end from the mains, but plug that end into
> a dummy receptacle inside that compartment which
> connects the ground pin of the mains (connected to
> the body) to the inverter's enable pin normally
> pulled up. So unless the cord is retracted, and
> mains
> end plugged into the car (so both ends are in the
> car),
> you can't move.
>
> What I was thinking to implement if I don't want to
> carry
> the cord, is to make a custom "plug" held in place
> by a
> magnet. If you manage to drive away it always
> unplugs
> itself with no damages.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um, how many kids have bikes..... how many kids have
scooters...... how long have they been riding bikes,
how long have they been riding scooters.... that's
like saying that flying to the moon is safer than
driving your car, there are hundreds of accidents
every day with cars, but not hundereds of accidents
every day with space shuttles...
come on!! get real.
> Foot scooter
> related injuries and
> deaths are not even a blip on the radar when
> compared with bicycles,
> roller blades, and other common child toys.
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
__________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I agree with your statement - but I probably did not describe the device well
enough. When you push the plug in (it is a recessed socket with a male set of
prongs and a weather cover) you also push in a plastic spring loaded "pin" in
the center of the plug. This is locked down, with some type of internal
"trigger". Then, when you turn the key, something in the circuit pops enough of
a little solenoid to trip the trigger, and the spring shoves the plug back out.
So this is based off the 12v system (I think it is actually wired in with the
signal to the starter), and not the 110v system.
The only thing I am not sure about, is what type of load they can take. We plug
in our rigs to keep the blocks warm, and to keep all the batteries recharged,
both in the truck and in the back with all the battery powered life support
stuff - and that can't be anywhere NEAR what a good thirsty charger could use.
I'll ask our mechanic where they come from - and see what range they come in.
For a simpler solution.... make a 1 foot long extension cord. This becomes the
end of your charging cord - and is the intentional "weak link". When you
forget, and drive away, the pull on this will be inline, and it will separate.
Worst case is you have a 12 inch pigtail flapping out of the gas cap hole (and
maybe bend sheet metal). We use these as well.... sometimes the guy on the fire
engine is in a hurry - and this has saved our cords more than once.
Kevin
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Kevin Coughlin wrote:
>
> > On the ambulance I drive - we plug it in the moment we park it. Hmmmm....
> EVERY
> > vehicle at the fire station has to be plugged in - I guess they aren't
> hybrids
> > *grin*. Anyway.....
> >
> > The socket has a little solenoid, and if you forget to pull out the plug
> when
> > you get in, once you turn the key it goes "thunk" and auto-ejects the plug
> for
> > you. Not good to rely on all the time..... but helpful for when you forget.
> > It's pretty embarassing to be driving down the road, lights and siren,
> dragging
> > a 50 foot extension cord......
> >
> > Maybe that would help - and the socket is DESIGNED for automotive use.
> >
>
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
>
> Solenoid solution above complicates things and still
> may fail.
>
> I really like the solution I saw for OEM VW CitySTROMer EV:
> it carries coiled cord in the small compartment behind
> front license plate, and you not only have to unplug
> the other end from the mains, but plug that end into
> a dummy receptacle inside that compartment which
> connects the ground pin of the mains (connected to
> the body) to the inverter's enable pin normally
> pulled up. So unless the cord is retracted, and mains
> end plugged into the car (so both ends are in the car),
> you can't move.
>
> What I was thinking to implement if I don't want to carry
> the cord, is to make a custom "plug" held in place by a
> magnet. If you manage to drive away it always unplugs
> itself with no damages.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
I just put a reed switch on the fuel door covering the power
inlet and tied it to the inverter's "Start Inhibit" input. As long
as the cord is plugged in the door cannot be closed, and the
vehicle cannot be started.
The system didn't work perfectly, the reed switch tended to get
bumped by the power cord and bent out of alignment, and for awhile
caused a lot of failure to start issues. Also make sure you install some
form of idiot light that tells the driver why the car is disabled. (Major
troubleshooting tool)
The idea is sound, just be careful how it is implemented.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mar�chal, the European division (parent?) of Meltric, manufacturer of Avcon
products, make "self-ejecting decontactors" that physically eject themselves
if subjected to excessive strain - in a limited number of directions though!
When you plug in you automatically compress the spring contacts and latch
the connector to the inlet. There is a short cable wire on the vehicle end
of the charging cable which connects to the release pawl. If the cable goes
taut, the pawl is released, and the spring tension physically pops the
connection apart.
It could work in some set-ups (front or rear of vehicle especially)
Matt
> From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 17:09:24 -0800
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
>
> Kevin Coughlin wrote:
>
>> On the ambulance I drive - we plug it in the moment we park it. Hmmmm....
>> EVERY
>> vehicle at the fire station has to be plugged in - I guess they aren't
>> hybrids
>> *grin*. Anyway.....
>>
>> The socket has a little solenoid, and if you forget to pull out the plug when
>> you get in, once you turn the key it goes "thunk" and auto-ejects the plug
>> for
>> you. Not good to rely on all the time..... but helpful for when you forget.
>> It's pretty embarassing to be driving down the road, lights and siren,
>> dragging
>> a 50 foot extension cord......
>>
>> Maybe that would help - and the socket is DESIGNED for automotive use.
>>
>
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
>
> Solenoid solution above complicates things and still
> may fail.
>
> I really like the solution I saw for OEM VW CitySTROMer EV:
> it carries coiled cord in the small compartment behind
> front license plate, and you not only have to unplug
> the other end from the mains, but plug that end into
> a dummy receptacle inside that compartment which
> connects the ground pin of the mains (connected to
> the body) to the inverter's enable pin normally
> pulled up. So unless the cord is retracted, and mains
> end plugged into the car (so both ends are in the car),
> you can't move.
>
> What I was thinking to implement if I don't want to carry
> the cord, is to make a custom "plug" held in place by a
> magnet. If you manage to drive away it always unplugs
> itself with no damages.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
I don't remember if I mentioned it last time this came up, but on the
TEVans they used few extra pins in the vehicle end of the connector. The
way it worked, then when the charge cord was fitted, the cord end completed
the circuit between either two or three pins on the male connector on the
vehicle. 2 pins caused the charger to operate in low current mode and
limit max draw to 30 amps, 3 pins caused the charger to go to high rate, 40
amp draw. As long as either two or 3 pins were connected, the drive would
not engage. On the down side they used a huge really stupid mil-spec
connector that took three hands to connect or disconnect.
I have been thinking about this and had an idea. If one wanted to go this
route you could equip the EV with a 4 prong male power inlet. The prongs
could be wired one to AC ground, one to AC hot, one to AC neutral (or other
hot on 220 systems) all feeding to the charger and the ground being
grounded to the vehicle chassis. The final pin would be led to the negative
of a 12 volt coil on a relay. The positive of the coil would be fed by the
"ignition" switch. The relay would be wired normally closed and would open
cutting power to the master power relay circuit when energized. On the
charge cord side, the extra connector would simply be jumped to the ground
pin. The result, when connecting the cord to the EV the cord would
complete the circuit for the relay by feeding through the plug back to the
chassis ground. Unless the ignition was on, the relay would still not
energize so no power would be wasted. However, if the cord were plugged in
and the ignition switched on, the main contactor would not close and the EV
would not operate until the cord was unplugged from the EV. Note, it would
not matter if the other end of the cord were plugged into the wall outlet
or not. It would still prevent operation when attached to the EV.
Normally I would get the willies about mixing 120 or 220 VAC and 12 VDC in
a single connector, but wouldn't using the ground this way be safe enough?
BTW, back when I drove a Jet 007, I had an off-board Lester with a 16 foot
output cord to the EV. The charger sat near the door of the garage and the
car plugged in on the front so the cord was always all over the place. One
morning I was backing out of the garage and glanced up to see my floor jack
slowly following the car out. Yup, cord was still plugged into the EV and
looped around the jack. Very very odd sight.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The idea is sound, just be careful how it is
> implemented.
>
> Mark
Hmm, that gives me another idea, why not have your
plug in cord, depress a pin switch. Hook the pin
switch up in "and" with the ignition switch, then to a
headlight buzzer. (or a normaly closed microswitch
using the gas flap door to open it, so if the gas flap
is open, the alarm circuit will go off, however when
the switch is depressed by the door closing - the
circuit opens and the alarm won't go off.
You forget to unplug the cord, hop in the car and turn
your key on - EERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR goes the buzzer,
because the plug is still in, pressing in the pin
switch, activiating the buzzer. (or the flap is still
open, the switch is closed and the buzzer goes off)
(maybe put a light as well with a label under it
"error...can not charge batteries from AC source while
driving down road"
Just another thought...
Bruce
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve Clunn wrote:
> With a yard full of batteries, I was thinking about ways to keep
> them healthy and had this idea. A device with dpdt relay that would
> switch the output of each from + to -, a voltage sense set up (some
> comparators) to sense full (say 7.5v) and empty (say 5.25v). When a
> battery reaches one or the other threshold voltages the dpdt would
> switch and the battery's polarity would change it in the string of
> batteries being charged.
It sounds like this would cycle every battery (full-dead-full-dead). I'm
not sure this is what you want to do.
Also, it requires a high voltage string of batteries, and a rather
specialized charger.
An easier approach might be to have a pair of wires with a power supply
connected that delivers a reasonable float voltage; 13.5v for 12v
lead-acid batteries, for example. Connect all the batteries in parallel,
and just let them float, accepting whatever current they needed to stay
charged. The power supply would only have to supply a fraction of an amp
per battery.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Robison wrote:
> is it not true that reversing the polarity on a motor like the
> Advanced DC will cause it to spin in the opposite direction?
No; it is just as you say -- reverse the polarity to a series motor, and
it still runs in the same direction. You have to reverse JUST the field
leads, or JUST the armature leads to reverse it.
> Is a universal motor hooked up for DC in a different fashion from
> how it's connected to AC?
No; the hookup is the same, regardless of whether you are running it on
AC or DC.
> And my final curiosity, could you spin up an ADC by plugging it
> into mains, assuming your circuit could supply the current?
Yes. They run on AC. Their efficiency suffers and the outer field iron
gets hot, though, because it is not laminated.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov writes:
>
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
The Avcon system has a reed relay in the inlet that is activated
when the Avcon handle is inserted. The reed relay can be used
to activate an interlockrelay that blocks out the main contactors.
If the handle is plugged in, powered or not, the car cannot be
driven away.
I'm also going to have the interlock relay feed into the car's
warning bell, so if the Avcon handle is plugged in when I open
the door I know right away.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That lack of demand for EVs that we keep hearing about has taken this baby
up to $8650 so far...
Nobody wants them so bad I'll bet this one goes for twice that...
Marv
-----Original Message-----
From: Reverend Gadget [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: electric Caravan for sale
http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=326310&convertTo=USD
Just had this forwarded to me if anyone is interesed
Gadget
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You would need a crap load of diodes to isolate the
batteries from each other and prevent one battery from
drawing a huge load from the others if it went bad
would you not - is this not one of the biggest dangers
when connecting many batteries in parallel? Setting
up like this would have all of the batteries trying to
be 100% equal in charge, and drawing from each other
to maintain that. (would also need VERY large cable
in order to be able to handle the higher current load
if one battery decided to draw from all the other
batteries..
Correct me if I am wrong, I have been known to be :-)
Bruce
> An easier approach might be to have a pair of wires
> with a power supply
> connected that delivers a reasonable float voltage;
> 13.5v for 12v
> lead-acid batteries, for example. Connect all the
> batteries in parallel,
> and just let them float, accepting whatever current
> they needed to stay
> charged. The power supply would only have to supply
> a fraction of an amp
> per battery.
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
News from China about its progress on electric vehicles.
link:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-02/20/content_1323681.htm
--
Paul Wujek
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with Lee:
Batteries in parallel do not produce a lot of volts, so it is safer to have
"laying around".
Floating them like this will guarantee they are full when you need them.
Regulating the voltage on float will reduce the water consumption.
You can put a load on them just as easy as a charger to run some energy out
of them.
The down side is you need twice as many interconnects .
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: battery charging Idea
> Steve Clunn wrote:
> > With a yard full of batteries, I was thinking about ways to keep
> > them healthy and had this idea. A device with dpdt relay that would
> > switch the output of each from + to -, a voltage sense set up (some
> > comparators) to sense full (say 7.5v) and empty (say 5.25v). When a
> > battery reaches one or the other threshold voltages the dpdt would
> > switch and the battery's polarity would change it in the string of
> > batteries being charged.
>
> It sounds like this would cycle every battery (full-dead-full-dead). I'm
> not sure this is what you want to do.
>
> Also, it requires a high voltage string of batteries, and a rather
> specialized charger.
>
> An easier approach might be to have a pair of wires with a power supply
> connected that delivers a reasonable float voltage; 13.5v for 12v
> lead-acid batteries, for example. Connect all the batteries in parallel,
> and just let them float, accepting whatever current they needed to stay
> charged. The power supply would only have to supply a fraction of an amp
> per battery.
> --
> "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
> world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Perhaps, however 16,000 is still less than 30-40,000.
If I recall correctly there is an RAV4 in CA that is going for 41k. Long
range batteries, beautiful, etc.
Just a bit expensive. Though how much do people pay for those Ford
Exploders these days?
Chris
Marvin Campbell wrote:
That lack of demand for EVs that we keep hearing about has taken this baby
up to $8650 so far...
Nobody wants them so bad I'll bet this one goes for twice that...
Marv
-----Original Message-----
From: Reverend Gadget [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 12:07 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: electric Caravan for sale
http://web.govliquidation.com/auction/view?auctionId=326310&convertTo=USD
Just had this forwarded to me if anyone is interesed
Gadget
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Ryan Bohm" <
> What about the battery regs. that Rich puts out:
>
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/parts.htm
>
> Wouldn't those do the trick?
>
> -Ryan
>
One of the things that got me thinking about this was that a few weeks ago I
picked up some wheel chair batteries that looked almost new but when I put a
meter on them there were stone cold dead , 0v and would not take a charge. I
put a 60 watt light bulb and bad boy charger ( yes across the battery there
was almost 120v and about 10 am flowing ) , after a few days the light bulb
started to light and voltage went down. I discharged and charged a few time
and much to my surprise they did come back enough to run the light in one of
my cars. This was not my idea , I read it one time on the list . So I'm
seeing more evidence that batteries need more that just charging depending
on there past, something that would cycle them , charging and discharging
them instead of just letting them sit around and once a month ( if I
remember) topping them off.
> Andre Blanchard wrote:
>
> >Just from a safety view point, do you really want a high voltage string
of
> >batteries just sitting around?
> >
With them sitting side by side the high voltage ends are about 15 feet
apart. there not all bunched together like in a car. I've got 240 ac coming
into the house with wires inches apart , but yes we must all be thinking
about safety.
> >Otherwise I am thinking something like Lee's balancing system would do
the
> >same job and be simpler to build.
I don't see where this is going to be so hard to build , Lee's set up will
work fine in a car and probable could be make to work doing what I'm talking
about but the thing I have going for me is that the setup is not ever used
to deliver power to something . Each battery sits in the string and will be
either charging or discharging depend on what cycle its in and when its
discharging it will be charging other batteries. .
For what you are describing I think you
> >will need a constant current power supply that can go positive or
negative
> >voltages.
> >
yes but we are not talking about a lot of amps . ( I'm thinking 5 amps) and
what would be so bad if it went up or down %100.
> >Andre' B.
> >
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >Behalf Of 1sclunn
> >Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:37 AM
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: battery charging Idea
> >
> >With a yard full of batteries , I was thinking about ways to keep them
> >healthy and had this idea. A device with dpdt rely that would switch the
out
> >put of each form + to - , . a voltage sense set up ( some comparers ) to
> >sense full ( say 7.5 v ) and empty ( say 5.25 ) . When a battery reaches
> >one or the other threshold voltages the dpdt would switch and the
battery's
> >polarity would change it in the string of batteries being charged
.example
> >20 golf carters in series ( this would be the outputs of the relays
sitting
> >on the batteries that would be hooked in series not right to the
batteries )
> >. all batteries start off charging. when the first one reached 7.5 v the
> >device would switch the polarity and start discharging that one battery
> >back into the string . There would have to be some kind of current
limiting
> >on the charger that would keep a steady ,say 5 amps output , the charger
> >would have to be able to handle the load changing as different batteries
> >went for charging to discharging . With this series string of batteries
> >all connected each one with its own relay , charging and discharging to
its
> >own ability . once the thing got going and some batteries were charging
and
> >other discharging it wouldn't require a lot of watts for the charger, It
> >would be using the electricy form the batteries being discharged to
charged
> >the others . The input from the charger could at times be very low or
under
> >certain conductions ( if all batteries got charged and went into
discharge
> >mode) just be a load. Could be done with a diode across the charger to
> >bypass the current when output of battery string got higher the
charger?.The
> >charger could be just some lights or a big coil with a bad boy. If
you've
> >read this and are thinking how would this work in a car than I haven't
> >explained it right as charging or discharging could never go over the
dpdt
> >relay amp rating . This if for batteries that are just sitting around .
> >Steve Clunn
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did anybody ever try looping the damned cord around the drivers door
handle on the way to the male prongs in the car?
Bob Boyd.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mark Farver
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:39 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
I just put a reed switch on the fuel door covering the power
inlet and tied it to the inverter's "Start Inhibit" input. As long
as the cord is plugged in the door cannot be closed, and the
vehicle cannot be started.
The system didn't work perfectly, the reed switch tended to get
bumped by the power cord and bent out of alignment, and for awhile
caused a lot of failure to start issues. Also make sure you install
some
form of idiot light that tells the driver why the car is disabled.
(Major
troubleshooting tool)
The idea is sound, just be careful how it is implemented.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: battery charging Idea
> I agree with Lee:
>
> Batteries in parallel do not produce a lot of volts, so it is safer to
have
> "laying around".
> Floating them like this will guarantee they are full when you need them.
> Regulating the voltage on float will reduce the water consumption.
> You can put a load on them just as easy as a charger to run some energy
out
> of them.
>
ya I'm starting to see this , funny it seemed like such a good idea at
first ( to me at least) .
> The down side is you need twice as many interconnects .
>
also you lose all the power when cycling which would have gone into other
batteries, but I'm not so happy with the idea anymore.
Steve Clunn
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:06 PM
> Subject: Re: battery charging Idea
>
>
> > Steve Clunn wrote:
> > > With a yard full of batteries, I was thinking about ways to keep
> > > them healthy and had this idea. A device with dpdt relay that would
> > > switch the output of each from + to -, a voltage sense set up (some
> > > comparators) to sense full (say 7.5v) and empty (say 5.25v). When a
> > > battery reaches one or the other threshold voltages the dpdt would
> > > switch and the battery's polarity would change it in the string of
> > > batteries being charged.
> >
> > It sounds like this would cycle every battery (full-dead-full-dead). I'm
> > not sure this is what you want to do.
> >
> > Also, it requires a high voltage string of batteries, and a rather
> > specialized charger.
> >
> > An easier approach might be to have a pair of wires with a power supply
> > connected that delivers a reasonable float voltage; 13.5v for 12v
> > lead-acid batteries, for example. Connect all the batteries in parallel,
> > and just let them float, accepting whatever current they needed to stay
> > charged. The power supply would only have to supply a fraction of an amp
> > per battery.
> > --
> > "Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
> > world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
> > --
> > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> >
>
--- End Message ---
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UNSUBSCRIBE
From: Joe Weber
E-MAIL: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2004-02-18 at 22:08, Ken Trough wrote:
> > Thousands of injuries are not "statistically minor" I couldn't find
> > anything recent, this is about two years out of date:
> > http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleyindependent/news/donora/s_157240.html
>
> A newspaper account (typically inflamed to get more readers) is not
> worth quoting as a confirmed statistic.
Fair enough, how about the Consumer Product Safety Commission?
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01222.html
To save you the effort, this was from August 2001 and it looked likely
that emergency room visits due to motorized scooters would exceed the
4390 from the previous year. How many motorized scooters do you
remember being around back in 2000?
http://www.cpsc.gov/kids/kidsafety/scoot.html
Shows that foot powered scooter emergency room visits exceed 40,000 per
year.
While it's true that bicycle accidents cause approx 10 ties as many
emergency room vissits, without know the ratio of kids riding scooters
vs bicycles this is pretty much a meaningless comparison.
>
> When I said "foot scooters" I meant motorized.
>
> > If you all feel that 8 year olds riding motorized scooters, at 10-15
> > mph, in and out of traffic, is perfectly safe...well that's your
> > opinion. I disagree and I don't see any problems with people passing
> > laws to restrict this.
>
> This is a failure of parents to monitor their kids, not an issue that
> requires legislation. I don't think that anyone is advocating 8 year old
> kids riding in and out of traffic on escooters.
I see, so you are advocating Anarchy? I mean if parents could be
depended on to what was right/smart/safe we wouldn't need ANY laws. The
fact is that Anarchy as a form of government does NOT work, people can
NOT be counted on to do what's right without laws.
The link I posted above indicated that one SIX YEAR OLD child died from
falling off a motorized scooter and one 11 year old riding his scooter
in traffic hit a truck.
If the only people at risk where the children of stupid parents, then
I'd say let Darwin fix the situation. Unfortunately this isn't the
case.
My Uncle was killed by a drunk pedestrian. The drunk stepped out in
front of him and he did what most folks will do and swerved,
unfortunately he swerved into a telephone pole. If a kid rides his
scooter out into traffic the same thing could happen.
Children under the age of...oh say 14, should not ride motorized
vehicles on the streets. If they are slow enough to be safe for the
child to ride, it's to slow to be in traffic. If it's fast enough to be
in traffic it's to fast for young children to ride safely.
If you allow children over a certain age to ride scooters on the
streets, how are the cops supposed to know how old the kid is? Besides
why should kids be allowed to drive motor vehicles without licenses?
It's just simpler to restrict motorized vehicles on the roads to those
people that have licenses. Solves the safety problem, solves the
enforcement problem.
As for kids riding powered scooters on the sidewalks. If we were
talking about scooters that only went 5-7 mph, I'd ave no problem.
Unfortunately many scooters have a tospeed of over 15 mph with an adult
on them, easily over 20 mph with small children. If you put a kid on a
scooter that can go 15 mph, that's how fast they will ride it, period.
This is too fast for sidewalks with pedestrians.
I'm not against kids riding electric scooters in a safe environment. I
don't think the streets are a safe environment for kids and I'm not sure
that sidewalks are safe for kids on motorized scooters.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is what I'm doing now on my Mazda and has worked perfectly but the
spring loaded plug that shoots the cord sounds like a lot of fun ( could
shoot your cord at those gas cars parked next to you) . I think this could
be made into an interesting Hood ornament. Make unplugging your car so much
fun that you never forget to do it.
----- Original Message -----
From: "rcboyd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 11:56 PM
Subject: RE: protection against dragging the cord down the road
> Did anybody ever try looping the damned cord around the drivers door
> handle on the way to the male prongs in the car?
> Bob Boyd.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Farver
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 6:39 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
>
> > The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
> > for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
> > the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.
>
> I just put a reed switch on the fuel door covering the power
> inlet and tied it to the inverter's "Start Inhibit" input. As long
> as the cord is plugged in the door cannot be closed, and the
> vehicle cannot be started.
>
> The system didn't work perfectly, the reed switch tended to get
> bumped by the power cord and bent out of alignment, and for awhile
> caused a lot of failure to start issues. Also make sure you install
> some
> form of idiot light that tells the driver why the car is disabled.
> (Major
> troubleshooting tool)
>
> The idea is sound, just be careful how it is implemented.
>
> Mark
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-02-19 at 21:34, Chris Zach wrote:
> Perhaps, however 16,000 is still less than 30-40,000.
>
> If I recall correctly there is an RAV4 in CA that is going for 41k. Long
> range batteries, beautiful, etc.
Was, not is.
Here is the timeline
Toyota tells customers that they didn't make enough 2002 model RAV4 EVs
so the remaining customers, who ordered 2002 models, could either cancel
their order or accept a 2003 model.
California caves under pressure from GW and drops their Zero Emisssion
Vehicle mandate.
Toyota cancels production of the RAV4 EV caiming there is no demand for
them.
There are currently no new production EVs available in the US.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm stoked, the stuff looks great.
Only one minor shipping problem. They put some major effort into
packing it well, the motor had about 10 layers of bubble wrap under it.
Unfortunately they forgot to mark the box "This end up" so naturally UPS
flipped it on it's side.
Apparently some oil leaked out of the transmission and soaked the box
which split open. The motor fell out when the driver tried to lift the
box, only fell a couple inches though and looks like no damage.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
