EV Digest 3368
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: electric Caravan for sale
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: electric Caravan for sale
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV Caravan For Sale
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Transmission efficiency
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV Caravan For Sale
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Zilla hairball Q's
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: protection against dragging the cord down the road
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Neat battery monitoring idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: electric Caravan for sale- NiMh batteries
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) curtis question - access screws
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: (ET) Re: new electrics for a mower
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RAV4-EV test drive
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Transmission efficiency
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> "NO KEY"?
Actually, I called the guy up; his number is 1 (949) 279-9680 from the
auction pages, and he says he now has the key. The car, however, will
not start, nor does the electronics engage enough for him to figure out
the milage.
It's really funny, he has no clue of electrics. "I opened, you know,
the hood, in expectation of finding, you know, an engine, but all I saw
was this big 'ol box!"
The plug is conductive, not inductive, by the way.
jorg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jorg Brown
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 9:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: electric Caravan for sale
Yup, first generation Chrysler EPIC.
At first, the specs looked like an AC Propulsion design:
ELECTRIC AC INDUCTION MOTOR;
SINGLE SPEED FRONT-WHEEL-DRIVE TRANSAXLE;
27, 12-VOLT MODULES BATTERY; 324 VOLTS;
ON BOARD CHARGER 208/240 VOLTS, 40 AMP CIRCUIT;
APPROXIMATELY 8 HOUR CHARGE TIME;
TOP SPEED 80 MPH;
RANGE 60 MI
So I called a friend there, who said that all ACP designs use at least
28 12-volt batteries, not 27.
So the question becomes, whose design is this? Does it have any real
power?
And I worry about:
1999 DODGE MPV GRAND CARAVAN SE ELECTRIC POWERED INTERURBAN COMMUTER
VAN.
MILEAGE UNKNOWN, NO KEY.
"NO KEY"?
And why aren't we allowed to look under the hood?
Also, a final note about pricing.
Current bid is $9,050.00. But there's a 10% buyer's premium, so the
real price is $9,955.00. And then you have to add CA sales tax. I did
an Edmund's search on an equivalent gas-powered Grand Caravan with 20K
mileage and came up with $6,742.00.
What intrigues me about this car is that the mechanicals are already in
place for an efficent electric conversion - the single-speed front-wheel
drive transmission is perfect for a conversion. And the battery boxes
are all already there and well-fitted to the interior etc.
So, if you're looking for parts, this might be a good buy.
jorg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: electric Caravan for sale
Ryan wrote:
>Is this a production or conversion vehicle?
>Either way it looked great yesterday at $2K
>They say it's ?value is $45K?
>
>It's 27 12v Lead Acid(probably) batteries 324vdc, 208/240vac 40A
charger
>8 hour charge time, 80 MPH, 60 miles range, 5950 Lbs.
>
>L8r
> Ryan
Unless I am greatly mistaken, this is a first generation Chrysler
EPIC. They had lead acid batteries while the later ones went to liquid
cooled NiMh.
Nice van, but just about a complete orphan I suspect. Give me something
I
can get parts for.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
'95 Solectria Force (almost there)
Kansas City, Missouri
EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jorg Brown [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Actually, I called the guy up; his number is 1 (949) 279-9680
> from the auction pages, and he says he now has the key. The
> car, however, will not start, nor does the electronics engage
> enough for him to figure out the milage.
If it is like the later EPICs, he probably just needs to jump the 12V
battery under the hood ;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://avt.inel.gov/fsev/epic/EPIC.pdf
Hi Folks, there is quite a bit about this vehicle just search google for
"1999 caravan epic nimh" as it appears that all of the '99s were Saft
liquid cooled NiMh, one wonders what type of charger is needed?
Excerpts follow........
For the 1999 model year, Chrysler will manufacture approximately 2,000
electric vans and make them available
for fleet leasing at $US450 per month for a
three-year period in New York and California.
At the Windsor plant, EPIC production will take place
on the same production line where petrol.-powered
Voyagers are manufactured. The only noticeable
difference in the production process is that an electric motor
and battery pack are installed as opposed to a petrol
engine.
The Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager EPIC models
are powered by an AC traction motor. "Fuel" for the
EPIC is provided by a nickel metal hydride (NiMH)
battery pack, which is conveniently located under the floor. Top
speed for EPIC is 130 km/h and range on a full charge
is projected to be between 130 and 145 kilometres in
moderate conditions.
Jim Cerano, Engineering Program Manager for the EPIC, presented an
overview of the
EPIC's features. The EPIC is a Dodge Caravan
mini-van which offers diversity to the electric
vehicle market. The EPIC is a four door, five
passenger vehicle with a gross vehicle weight of 5800
pounds, and a payload of 925 pounds. The 1999
EPIC uses Saft nickel metal hydride batteries.
The vehicle has a combined city/highway range
of approximately 90 miles, accelerates to 60 miles
per hour in 17 seconds, with a maximum speed of
80 miles per hour.
One of the EPIC's unique features is the
off-vehicle conductive charging. The advantages of
off-vehicle conductive charging include: (1)
reduced vehicle weight, (2) improved charger reliability,
(3) more efficient transfer of power through
conductive coupling, (4) potential for higher capacity
chargers, and (5) lower costs to the consumers.
Although
the charger is not on the vehicle, a
Lockheed-Martin charger is included with each EPIC lease. The
time to fully charge the EPIC is approximately
five to eight hours. The charger also has an A/C
pass-through which allows it to be used by
other vehicles with on-board conductive chargers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I do - http://www.metricmind.com/misc/efficiency_gear1.jpg
>
> This is the map for manual transmission for VW golf class of
> car, like this one: http://www.metricmind.com/images/city_stromer.jpg
Great graph, Victor, but nowhere is it indicated what gear each of the 7
(?) curves represents; do you have this info elsewhere?
Also, why 7 curves? That would suggest the VW Golf class vehicle has 6
forward speeds besides reverse, but I suspect it has just 5.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> but... i don't remember, wasn't the 95 the newer body style... sadly,
> probably the same one at the EPICs?
>
1995 was the last year for the old body style for the Plymouth Voyager. My
95 Voyager has 141,000 miles, new starter motor, A/C evaporator, and new
transmission. Not great reliability, but OK for a Canadian made car. Mark
T.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 11:47 AM
Subject: RE: EV Caravan For Sale
> Can you clarify a bit more as to "bad experiences"? It seems to me
> that, worst comes to worst, you're still covered in the veil of being
> able to use a credit card to purchase with. It's generally a good
> antidote to "games".
>
> I mean, was it that the item description didn't match the actual item?
> Or did they take a long time to deliver? Or... ?
>
> jorg
The credit card deal might be the ticket for a single item. As far as our
experiances you name it, they pretty much did it. How about a case lot of
new condition tents that turned out to be obviously used and moldy to the
extent that we had to burn them. Or one order that showed up with some of
the correct mdse and the rest of the box stuffed with used and smelly
t-shirts and fatigue pieces? How about paid for lots that didn't exist when
shipping company showed up to pick up and ship? And you still have to pay
the shipping expeditor? Trying to get anywhere with them or discuss a case
is next to futile. BTW their headquarters is less than 5 miles from me. DRMO
was way easier and pleasant to deal with. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Otmar,
Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
Man, with the dollar as low as it is
against Sterling, I am **very** tempted to
put a Zilla in the next project...
I noticed a couple of things:
There are some terminals marked "cruise"
Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
Also, I see an port on the end marked
"EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
into a real production design?
( cool, if it has!)
Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
to the hairball?
I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
Regards
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Couple more questions.
I'm assuming this is flash based.
Do you plan on allowing field software upgrades?
Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI
converter?
Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the
bootloader. Is this on board or would it be on
the external board above.
Thanks,
Rod
--- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Hi Otmar,
>
> Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
> Man, with the dollar as low as it is
> against Sterling, I am **very** tempted to
> put a Zilla in the next project...
>
> I noticed a couple of things:
>
> There are some terminals marked "cruise"
> Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
>
> Also, I see an port on the end marked
> "EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
> into a real production design?
> ( cool, if it has!)
>
> Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
> to the hairball?
> I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
> control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
> fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
>
> Regards
>
> Richard Bebbington
> electric Mini pickup
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > Modules only monitor voltage, so adding appropriate value resistors
> > in series will not skew the results but will prevent zorch even if
> > any two (or more) SS relays are on at the same time. You'll just
> > get erroneous readings.
>
> The imperfect nature of the switches can become quite a problem. When
> off, they are not completely off -- some leakage current still flows.
> When on, they are not completely on -- there is a voltage drop.
>
> The desired cell voltage is being read thru 2 "on" relays; 27+27=54
> ohms. The other 148 "off" relays can contribute as much as 1uA x 148 =
> 148uA of leakage current. This leakage current causes a voltage drop
> across the "on" resistance of 148uA x 54ohms = 0.008v or 8mv. That is a
> 0.4% error in a 2v reading due to this source alone.
Oh, yes, there will be an error, and this SS really isn't perfect
part for the application. But, first, you're just monitoring
voltages. 0.4% error is really negligible compared to other
component's errors, for instance the charger accuracy
(which is more important) is rarely better than 0.4%.
If you see 2.289V while real voltage is 2.281V, nothing drastic
will happen. For the whole 300V pack it is 1.2V. Well tolerable
even for LiIons.
Second, even if you act upon these readings, it is
perfectly OK. I'm not aware of any battery manufacturer
which demands accuracy of charging/discharging voltages
to be better than 0.4%, else performance suffers.
Can you point to any?
Saying this is not to defend design in this article,
it is far from optimal. Just don't get caught up with
unnecessary accuracy efforts with no practical benefits.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Rod and Richard and other interested ones.
Couple more questions.
I'm assuming this is flash based.
Yes, it runs a PIC 18F6620.
Do you plan on allowing field software upgrades?
Yes, Even the original Hairball does that.
Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI
converter?
No, the resident bootloader loads hex files through the serial port
in ASCII. Most standard terminals can do it (ZTerm on Macs, Hyperterm
in devil ware)
Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the
bootloader. Is this on board or would it be on
the external board above.
I think you may be thinking of the "in circuit serial programming",
but that is different from a bootloader. My bootloader loads through
the serial port with a text interface.
--- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Hi Otmar,
> Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
Thanks!
There are some terminals marked "cruise"
> Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
Yes, The inputs are there, the code is not yet. I can imagine all
sorts of modes. (how about constant power to check car efficiency)
> Also, I see an port on the end marked
"EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
into a real production design?
( cool, if it has!)
Again, the Hardware is there, though the parts are not stuffed on the
standard one. (I hope it works!) Once I have code to drive it, I'll
offer the option.
> Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
> to the hairball?
I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
> fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
Hmm, that's a tough one. Not very easy for anyone but me, and even
then not that easy. There are thousands of lines of C code and years
of development in the Hairball. I don't think I want to make that
public at this time. We can talk about it more. Do you have a Hi-Tech
PICC-18 compiler? (Not a cheap item, but it sure works)
I can see how it would be nice to have the automatic transmission
programmable by currents and voltages.
OK, I'm going back to finding a stutter bug. I need to find it before
I ship any of the new HB2s. I don't have any more of the old Hairball
cases to ship so it's all HB2 from here on out.
Lot's of orders to fill... I'm not complaining, but it's work..
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If it looks like this http://www.metricmind.com/misc/epic.pdf ,
I have news for you which is carefully avoided in the
document above. Did you notice the drive system info
(at least just the motor power) is totally absent? Why?
Chrysler installed Siemens AC drive system in this vans -
Simovert 6SV1 inverter and 5135WS14 motor, and, I suspect,
doesn't like to admit that could not come up with better
domestic system. That was before Chrysler became
Daimler-Chrysler.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
Yup, first generation Chrysler EPIC.
At first, the specs looked like an AC Propulsion design:
ELECTRIC AC INDUCTION MOTOR;
SINGLE SPEED FRONT-WHEEL-DRIVE TRANSAXLE;
27, 12-VOLT MODULES BATTERY; 324 VOLTS;
ON BOARD CHARGER 208/240 VOLTS, 40 AMP CIRCUIT;
APPROXIMATELY 8 HOUR CHARGE TIME;
TOP SPEED 80 MPH;
RANGE 60 MI
So I called a friend there, who said that all ACP designs use at least
28 12-volt batteries, not 27.
So the question becomes, whose design is this? Does it have any real
power?
And I worry about:
1999 DODGE MPV GRAND CARAVAN SE ELECTRIC POWERED INTERURBAN COMMUTER
VAN.
MILEAGE UNKNOWN, NO KEY.
"NO KEY"?
And why aren't we allowed to look under the hood?
Also, a final note about pricing.
Current bid is $9,050.00. But there's a 10% buyer's premium, so the
real price is $9,955.00. And then you have to add CA sales tax. I did
an Edmund's search on an equivalent gas-powered Grand Caravan with 20K
mileage and came up with $6,742.00.
What intrigues me about this car is that the mechanicals are already in
place for an efficent electric conversion - the single-speed front-wheel
drive transmission is perfect for a conversion. And the battery boxes
are all already there and well-fitted to the interior etc.
So, if you're looking for parts, this might be a good buy.
jorg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Chancey
Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: electric Caravan for sale
Ryan wrote:
>Is this a production or conversion vehicle?
>Either way it looked great yesterday at $2K
>They say it's ?value is $45K?
>
>It's 27 12v Lead Acid(probably) batteries 324vdc, 208/240vac 40A
charger
>8 hour charge time, 80 MPH, 60 miles range, 5950 Lbs.
>
>L8r
> Ryan
Unless I am greatly mistaken, this is a first generation Chrysler
EPIC. They had lead acid batteries while the later ones went to liquid
cooled NiMh.
Nice van, but just about a complete orphan I suspect. Give me something
I
can get parts for.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are many useful suggestions and hundreds of ways to make
interlock work. All of those I've seen on EVDL so far, require
extra contacts, reed switches, relays, components which may fail
as well. If not components themselves, then connections to them.
I liked VW solution because it's 100% idiot proof and requires
no extra components at all other than dummy receptacle.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
>Victor Tikhonov writes:
>>
>> The problem I see with all the interlocks solution is that
>> for most of designs if there is no AC power coming but
>> the plug is physically in, you can still drive away.>
>
>The Avcon system has a reed relay in the inlet that is activated
>when the Avcon handle is inserted. The reed relay can be used
>to activate an interlockrelay that blocks out the main contactors.
>If the handle is plugged in, powered or not, the car cannot be
>driven away.>
>I'm also going to have the interlock relay feed into the car's
>warning bell, so if the Avcon handle is plugged in when I open
>the door I know right away.>
>
>Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> The imperfect nature of the switches can become quite a problem.
>> 0.4% error in a 2v reading due to this source alone.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Oh, yes, there will be an error, and this SSR really isn't perfect
> part for the application. But... 0.4% error is really negligible
> compared to other component's errors, for instance the charger
> accuracy (which is more important) is rarely better than 0.4%.
I quite agree. I am probably just nitpicking. However, it is good to at
least think of the possible error sources.
While the 0.4% voltage error doesn't sound too bad; remember that the
*sign* of the error is likely to change. It might turn out that the most
negative cell's voltage error is +0.4%, while the most positive cell's
voltage error is -0.4%. For lead-acid, a 1% voltage change represents
10% state of charge error. So, these errors might cause a battery
balancing system to UN-balance the cells by 8%.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>Hyperterm
>in devil ware
Nice description, it could also
be called 'Windows, hacker enabled'
Nice to see all this stuff is included in
the hairball. I had no idea what a 'hairball'
was until you posted the picture.
Nice work, keep it going.
Rod
--- Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Rod and Richard and other interested ones.
>
> >Couple more questions.
> >I'm assuming this is flash based.
>
> Yes, it runs a PIC 18F6620.
>
> >Do you plan on allowing field software upgrades?
>
> Yes, Even the original Hairball does that.
>
> >Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI
> >converter?
>
> No, the resident bootloader loads hex files through
> the serial port
> in ASCII. Most standard terminals can do it (ZTerm
> on Macs, Hyperterm
> in devil ware)
>
> >Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the
> >bootloader. Is this on board or would it be on
> >the external board above.
>
> I think you may be thinking of the "in circuit
> serial programming",
> but that is different from a bootloader. My
> bootloader loads through
> the serial port with a text interface.
>
> >--- Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >wrote:
> >> Hi Otmar,
> >>
> > > Nice photo of the new Zilla hairball module.
>
> Thanks!
>
> > There are some terminals marked "cruise"
> > > Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
>
> Yes, The inputs are there, the code is not yet. I
> can imagine all
> sorts of modes. (how about constant power to check
> car efficiency)
>
> > > Also, I see an port on the end marked
> >> "EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it
> >> into a real production design?
> >> ( cool, if it has!)
>
> Again, the Hardware is there, though the parts are
> not stuffed on the
> standard one. (I hope it works!) Once I have code to
> drive it, I'll
> offer the option.
>
> > > Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions
> > > to the hairball?
> >> I'm thinking in terms of the 3 solenoids that
> >> control a Supra's auto box.... and I'm
> > > fluent in PIC-micro speak! ;-)
>
> Hmm, that's a tough one. Not very easy for anyone
> but me, and even
> then not that easy. There are thousands of lines of
> C code and years
> of development in the Hairball. I don't think I want
> to make that
> public at this time. We can talk about it more. Do
> you have a Hi-Tech
> PICC-18 compiler? (Not a cheap item, but it sure
> works)
>
> I can see how it would be nice to have the automatic
> transmission
> programmable by currents and voltages.
>
> OK, I'm going back to finding a stutter bug. I need
> to find it before
> I ship any of the new HB2s. I don't have any more of
> the old Hairball
> cases to ship so it's all HB2 from here on out.
> Lot's of orders to fill... I'm not complaining, but
> it's work..
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
While the 0.4% voltage error doesn't sound too bad; remember that the
*sign* of the error is likely to change. It might turn out that the most
negative cell's voltage error is +0.4%, while the most positive cell's
voltage error is -0.4%. For lead-acid, a 1% voltage change represents
10% state of charge error. So, these errors might cause a battery
balancing system to UN-balance the cells by 8%.
Sure, they might.
I think you're the one who repeated several times not to use voltage as
a criteria for PbA batteries SOC judgment :)
But, seriously, your accuracy really should only depend on
what are you going to do with this data. If only look at the
display and never do anything about it, accuracy is almost
irrelevant. 100% error becomes OK since nothing is going to be
changed anyway, so who cares?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I visited Chrysler proving grounds in Auburn Hills
and rode in a proto Epic that really kicked ass, even
on the 15% grade. I was told it was a Westinghouse
system. Did Westinghouse ever go into these vans
or was it a Siemans re-lable?. Either system, nice
performance.
Rod
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If it looks like this
> http://www.metricmind.com/misc/epic.pdf ,
> I have news for you which is carefully avoided in
> the
> document above. Did you notice the drive system info
> (at least just the motor power) is totally absent?
> Why?
>
> Chrysler installed Siemens AC drive system in this
> vans -
> Simovert 6SV1 inverter and 5135WS14 motor, and, I
> suspect,
> doesn't like to admit that could not come up with
> better
> domestic system. That was before Chrysler became
> Daimler-Chrysler.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
>
>
> Yup, first generation Chrysler EPIC.
>
> At first, the specs looked like an AC Propulsion
> design:
>
> ELECTRIC AC INDUCTION MOTOR;
> SINGLE SPEED FRONT-WHEEL-DRIVE TRANSAXLE;
> 27, 12-VOLT MODULES BATTERY; 324 VOLTS;
> ON BOARD CHARGER 208/240 VOLTS, 40 AMP CIRCUIT;
> APPROXIMATELY 8 HOUR CHARGE TIME;
> TOP SPEED 80 MPH;
> RANGE 60 MI
>
> So I called a friend there, who said that all ACP
> designs use at least
> 28 12-volt batteries, not 27.
>
> So the question becomes, whose design is this? Does
> it have any real
> power?
>
> And I worry about:
>
> 1999 DODGE MPV GRAND CARAVAN SE ELECTRIC POWERED
> INTERURBAN COMMUTER
> VAN.
> MILEAGE UNKNOWN, NO KEY.
>
> "NO KEY"?
>
> And why aren't we allowed to look under the hood?
>
> Also, a final note about pricing.
>
> Current bid is $9,050.00. But there's a 10% buyer's
> premium, so the
> real price is $9,955.00. And then you have to add
> CA sales tax. I did
> an Edmund's search on an equivalent gas-powered
> Grand Caravan with 20K
> mileage and came up with $6,742.00.
>
> What intrigues me about this car is that the
> mechanicals are already in
> place for an efficent electric conversion - the
> single-speed front-wheel
> drive transmission is perfect for a conversion. And
> the battery boxes
> are all already there and well-fitted to the
> interior etc.
>
> So, if you're looking for parts, this might be a
> good buy.
>
> jorg
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mike Chancey
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 4:20 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: electric Caravan for sale
>
> Ryan wrote:
> >Is this a production or conversion vehicle?
> >Either way it looked great yesterday at $2K
> >They say it's ?value is $45K?
> >
> >It's 27 12v Lead Acid(probably) batteries 324vdc,
> 208/240vac 40A
> charger
> >8 hour charge time, 80 MPH, 60 miles range, 5950
> Lbs.
> >
> >L8r
> > Ryan
>
> Unless I am greatly mistaken, this is a first
> generation Chrysler
> EPIC. They had lead acid batteries while the later
> ones went to liquid
> cooled NiMh.
>
> Nice van, but just about a complete orphan I
> suspect. Give me something
> I
> can get parts for.
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> But, seriously, your accuracy really should only depend on
> what are you going to do with this data. If only look at the
> display and never do anything about it, accuracy is almost
> irrelevant. 100% error becomes OK since nothing is going to be
> changed anyway, so who cares?
You are absolutely right! A user would need to know the accuracy of the
data before deciding what he/she is going to do with it. For some
purposes, low-accuracy readings are just fine; for others, high accuracy
is needed.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Folks,
More info on the van, It just sold for 10200.00 again proving that
NoooBody wants those pesky bev s. I almost bought it myself glad I
didn't cause after putting in a big max. bid, the auction was delayed a
day so I had time to locate the folks that turned it in. It has a
damaged Saft NiMh pack,when the cooling pump went out, also there is a
big outboard conductive proprietary charger not included....Oops. First
time I am glad I was outbid !!!
Good news ...they found the key. Bill
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--- Begin Message ---
I talked to my inside source at Chrysler and
he said many NiMh new packs were donated to
Universities (no new packs are left, I think). There
are used packs left over that
could be obtained from Chrysler if a formal letter
is written from the University requesting the
batteries. So, if you have good connections at
a university this is a possibility. Worst case you
could get a used pack and piece it together with
the damaged? pack in the van.
So who is the buyer? If they need help obtaining
a used NimH battery pack I can help.
Rod
--- William Brinsmead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Folks,
> More info on the van, It just sold for 10200.00
> again proving that
> NoooBody wants those pesky bev s. I almost bought it
> myself glad I
> didn't cause after putting in a big max. bid, the
> auction was delayed a
> day so I had time to locate the folks that turned it
> in. It has a
> damaged Saft NiMh pack,when the cooling pump went
> out, also there is a
> big outboard conductive proprietary charger not
> included....Oops. First
> time I am glad I was outbid !!!
> Good news ...they found the key. Bill
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
I visited Chrysler proving grounds in Auburn Hills
and rode in a proto Epic that really kicked ass, even
on the 15% grade. I was told it was a Westinghouse
system. Did Westinghouse ever go into these vans
or was it a Siemans re-lable?. Either system, nice
performance.
Rod
I don't know. Perhaps these vans were equipped
with different systems at different times.
I know for sure some used Siemens systems, but
of course can't tell about particular one
in sale on ebay.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Quick question...I have a curtis 1204-409. It has 2 of the access
screws on the side. Which one is concealing the pot that controls the
current ramp-up? Thanks!
=====
David Brandt, P.E.
918-342-1252 (hm)
918-401-5689 (wk)
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AC motors and controls were always attractive since
they don't require brush replacement (hence the motors
can be placed anywhere, buried). They also offer easy
regen capability without contactors or extra silicon.
They also eliminate all of the contactors except a
main
line contactor for safety. The draw back has always
been the cost of semiconductors since you need six
times the number of switches (6 for a 3 phase motor
compared to one low side switch for a series motor).
Mosfet's have advanced considerably in the past 15
years and offer a system trade off cost that is
attractive. Regen is very important on a forklift
that
spends considerable time reversing. This is also
important on the lift system since regen can be used
to recapture energy as the load is lowered (instead of
using wastefull hydrolic valves that dissipate the
energy as heat.) DSP's and microcontrollers tailored
for AC inverters are common place and innexpensive
(not
the case 15 years ago where a complex analog system
would be required).
All of these advantages can be applied to a new and
improved Elec Trak.
Also, the manufacturing cost of an AC induction motor
is inherintley cheaper than a brush motor. The only
thing that will wear out on these motors is the
bearings, which should outlive the forklift.
If a good battery balancing system is used on an
electric mower, charging should be a no brainer, no
maintanence item. I think an EV mowor is truely
cheaper to produce than an ICE version if quantities
are high enough.
I don't think a die hard ICE racer would prefer a loud
and smelly mower compared to an EV if the price was
right.
I just wish this country was more committed to
creating
alternatives like this to reduce pollution when the
outcome is more desirable to the average consumer.
Rod.
--- Dave & Debbie Barden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> AC motors? I thought they required a more
> complex/expensive controller?
> Was there some kind of controller break through or
> is the controller not
> necessary because motor is constant speed??
>
> dave
> seattle
>
> > Hyster, Yale, Toyota and Linde are going all AC
> > across the board on their forklifts in the near
> > future. This will provide a good source for low
> > cost motors and controls for riding mowers.
> > I've even seen 24V walkies with AC induction
> systems.
> > The major players in the motor control market
> > are Curtis, Zapi and SME (Toyota makes their own).
> > Rod
> > www.qsl.net/w8rnh
> >
> > --- William Korthof <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > > The cheap batteries have been around for quite a
> > > while...
> > > golf cars have created this market: a pack of
> six
> > > US2200
> > > or T105 batteries cost just a few hundred
> dollars
> > > (~$300).
> > >
> > > I think the improved power electronics and motor
>
> > > choices
> > > (in volume, a 3-phase inverter is cheap enough
> to
> > > allow
> > > use of 3-phase AC motor). An AC motor driven by
> > > normal
> > > vector drive inverter obviates the need for
> multiple
> > > gears.
> > > Regenerative braking is also easy with AC drive.
> All
> > > the
> > > above would result in significantly improved
> > > efficiency vs
> > > GE Electrak-era hardware.
> > >
> > > Any necessary 12vdc accessories can be operated
> > > directly from a DC-DC converter. Lighting and
> > > markers
> > > could use LEDs and compact fluorescent lamps.
> > >
> > > Todays power electronics also make it easy to
> have a
> > > powerful automatic charger that is "plug and
> play"
> > > to a
> > > standard outlet and provides most of a charge
> within
> > > 2-3 hours. Faster, smarter charging, improved
> > > efficiency,
> > > and more completely balanced battery discharging
> > > (vs electrak taps) would lower the AC power use,
> > > extend
> > > run time, and lengthen battery performance and
> pack
> > > life.
> > >
> > > In addition, todays inverters could easily
> provide a
> > > nice
> > > supply of 120 VAC for portable power tools.
> > >
> > > I do think that a modern electric tractor is an
> > > unexplored
> > > product with a significant un-served market.
> > >
> > >
> > > /wk
> > >
> > >
> > > At 09:46 AM 2/20/04 -0500, Elie, Larry (L.D.)
> wrote:
> > > >Hydrostatic is 65 to less than 80%, depending
> on
> > > many factors including
> > > >temperature. It's used on gas tractors for
> > > connivence, nothing
> > > >more. Hydrodynamic (car automatic) can go much
> > > higher, but isn't really
> > > >variable speed at all; just shift-on go.
> > > >
> > > >It's always funny when our 30 year hindsight
> > > realizes that people 30 years
> > > >ago weren't dumb. If electric tractors rise
> again,
> > > it will be because
> > > >someone has a cheap battery or ultra-cap... or
> > > perhaps uses a cheap fuel
> > > >cell. This market is already poisoned, and no
> > > large marketing guy will
> > > >touch it. Once business people 'know' that no
> one
> > > will buy something,
> > > >they stop trying. Another example: Diesels
> have
> > > 50% market penetration
> > > >in Europe at higher fuel price. In the US it's
> 5%,
> > > because GM failed
> > > >marketing it in 1980, and now everyone 'knows'
> that
> > > no one will buy
> > > >them. Service is part of that. They tried,
> but
> > > not well. People paid a
> > > >large premium to buy the early ones, and then
> > > averaged over $1,000/year
> > > >for repairs. I'm afraid Honda or Toyota may
> poison
> > > the electric market
> > > >for the next 25 years too. If they start
> passing
> > > on real their costs,
> > > >they will indeed kill the market. I'm glad GM
> > > pulled out before they
> > > >poisoned the electric market. No one will take
> > > large los!
> > > > ses for long before they pass them on or pull
> > > out, and pulling out to
> > > > give others a chance is the BETTER choice for
> > > everyone else.
> > > >
> > > >Larry Elie
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >-----Original Message-----
> > > >From: Ralph & Elaine Vogan
> > > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >Sent: Friday, February 20, 2004 3:33 AM
> > > >To: Elec-Trak
> > > >Subject: Re: (ET) Re: new electrics
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >Does anyone know the efficiency of a
> hydrostatic
> > > drive? Use a single speed
> > > >motor and the drive for forward, reverse, and
> speed
> > > changes. I have an old
> > > >White ice tractor with a very small hydrostatic
> > > drive unit bolted to the
> > > >differential. It has plenty of power. Or a
> > > hydrolic pump & motor to drive
> > > >the blades?
> > > >
> > > >Ralph V
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > With all this talk about new ETs and better
> or
> > > cheaper ways to make them
> > > > > please remember that due to the limited
> energy
> > > storage on board our
> > > >tractors
> > > > > efficiency must be paramount.
> > > > >
> > > > > V belt drives tend to be only 90-95%
> efficient
> > > when everything is in good
> > > > > condition and clean.
> > > > >
> > > > > Friction drives are 80-90% efficient.
> > > > >
> > > > > Chains, again in good condition, are 98 %
> > > efficient, but high maintenance
> > > >to
> > > > > keep them in good shape in a tractor
> > > application. Notice that they are
> > > >not
> > > > > used except in high torque attachments like
> the
> > > snowblower. A worn, dry,
> > > > > and/or rusty chain can have efficiencies as
> low
> > > as 60-70%. The wasted
> > > > > energy turns to heat and destruction of what
> is
> > > left of the chain and
> > > > > sprockets.
> > > > >
> > > > > Direct drive, like the mower decks, are 100%
> > > efficient.
> > > > >
> > > > > GE used VX series V belts for the traction
> motor
> > > because the VX series V
> > > > > belts are more efficient than the old
> A/B/C/D
>
=== message truncated ===
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--- Begin Message ---
I decided that with my own EV off the road for a bit, this would be a
great time to go for the trial membership in ZipCar and try out a RAV4
EV. And the results: really nice to drive! Just makes it more
frustrating that Toyota isn't selling them. But does help me design my own.
Joining ZipCar is fairly painless - sign up on-line. Rather than wait
for the magic card to come by mail, I choose to go to their office in
person... and happily told the guy there that I was signing up
specifically to use the elctrics. He was very positive, talking about
how the ride is so quite I'll hear things that normally wouldn't be
heard like the brake pads and the engine in the car next to me. And
saying that I'd enjoy the experience.
Once I had the key card, I went back on-line to reserve a time slot.
After I selected the EV, I had to go to a special page of instructions
that detailed things like how to use the charger. Which I'm glad I read
as I never knew I had to push a button on the dash before plugging in.
And that the key has to be turned to 'start' for a couple of seconds
just like an ICE. At the bottom of the page came a silly quiz I had to
answer, supposedly to satisfy the agreement ZipCar has with Toyota. I
realized too late I should have answered everything wrong just to see
what would happen.
So, this afternoon I took the car out. Only 478 miles on it! First odd
thing was the heater... being a chilly day I turned it on, but nothing
happened. After a couple of minutes it kicked in, first at low then the
fan sped up. I'm guessing that it waited for the water heater to get to
temperature.
Driving was nice. A couple of miles on low roads, then onto the highway.
Including the hill where my truck died... the RAV4 did it at 65-70 mph.
In all I logged about 38 miles, maybe 85% highway. That left me with the
gauge showing about 1/3 of a "tank" left. So that makes 60 miles of
range under real conditions with heater on, somewhat aggressive driving,
etc. Plus the extra 20 miles or so left once it gets down to the yellow
warning band. So keep my foot out of it and should turn 100 miles. Nice.
It acted *very* much like an ICE with an automatic tranny. Take foot off
brake and it creeps. Mash the gas pedal down from a stop and it 'slips'
for a second before getting full power. Didn't have quite the same
off-the-line surge of power that I get with my truck but had lots more
power up at highway speeds. Now to look up the specs of the motor and
vehicle weight to get some design points.
I discovered when I got back that is has electric seat warmers...
possibly a way to stay warm with less energy consumption? I have another
5 hours of driving before my initial money runs out so I'll play with it
some more :-)
<shameless plug> If anyone around Boston decides to try out ZipCar, give
my name and I get credit for an extra hour of driving time which is an
extra hour of EV grinning </plug>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Those aren't gears. They are iso lines of efficiency (solid) and power
(dashed)
HTH
Seth
On Feb 20, 2004, at 2:40 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Victor Tikhonov [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I do - http://www.metricmind.com/misc/efficiency_gear1.jpg
This is the map for manual transmission for VW golf class of
car, like this one: http://www.metricmind.com/images/city_stromer.jpg
Great graph, Victor, but nowhere is it indicated what gear each of the
7
(?) curves represents; do you have this info elsewhere?
Also, why 7 curves? That would suggest the VW Golf class vehicle has 6
forward speeds besides reverse, but I suspect it has just 5.
Cheers,
Roger.
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