EV Digest 3369
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: article: Electric cars: China's hope to catch up with advanced auto maker
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Transmission efficiency
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Transmission efficiency
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC/DC hybrid drive combo?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Transmission efficiency
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Transmission efficiency
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by "BORTEL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) shunt alternatives
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) OT:Re: article: Electric cars: China's hope to catch up with advanced auto maker
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: RAV4-EV test drive
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: battery charging Idea
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: electric Caravan for sale
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Current vs Voltage danger
by Bruce Robertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) relays was "Re: EDN EV monitoring circuit " (long)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Current vs Voltage danger
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: RAV4-EV test drive
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Evercel is no more!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Anti-scooter legislation is OFF-TOPIC
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Anti-scooter legislation is OFF-TOPIC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Cheap Induction Chargers on Ebay
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Cheap Induction Chargers on Ebay
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Cheap Induction Chargers on Ebay
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Cheap Induction Chargers on Ebay
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Evercel is no more!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
25) Re: Current vs Voltage danger
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Zilla hairball Q's
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: shunt alternatives
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) NiMH & cold weather
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
IMO, the Chinese recognize that with a billion peple there, they:
A) already have a pollution problem with a much lower cars"people ratio
than us
B) realize that someday gasoline is likely to become more costly and or
scarce
C) are hosting the Olympics and want to have a clean presentation
Seth
On Feb 20, 2004, at 11:02 AM, Steven Lough wrote:
Paul Wujek wrote <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:39:38 -0500
To: eV List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
News from China about its progress on electric vehicles.
link:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-02/20/content_1323681.htm
Steve Lough adds:
This is a very interesting article, and I agree that because of the
inherent simplicity of EVs,(Vs-a-Vs a modern computer driven EFI
engine) it is possible that they COULD catch up with us. It would
serve the Big Three right! ( Although I would not care to see it
happen ) for the Chinese to come up with an affordable, reliable BEV
for sale in the States. ...Say 65 mph, 100 miles of range, for
under $18,000. ??
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: NOW AT: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, that efficiency map bears out my findings. Hence the 70%
number at low torque, high input shaft speed. Like a field weakened AC
motor with a single speed. Or a series wound motor run in a (too)low
gear. At relatively lower speed and higher torque, the efficiency
improves greatly.
Seth
On Feb 12, 2004, at 5:17 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Seth wrote:
A year ago I would have agreed with Victor. And while I don't exactly
agree with the wheel motor guys (not a fair representation of the
losses), I can say that I have measured light load losses that were
lots higher than I thought possible in a transmission. I don't have
the
answer for full load numbers.
I do - http://www.metricmind.com/misc/efficiency_gear1.jpg
This is the map for manual transmission for VW golf class of car,
like this one: http://www.metricmind.com/images/city_stromer.jpg
(which is an EV and BTW is on sale:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/city_stromer.jpg).
Anyway,
A common good design gear box will have 90...95% efficiency.
That number is pretty much constant (except if you maneuver
on the parking lot) and almost always used in simulations too.
If you get 70%, you either use overkill transmission or wrong oil
in it, or measured it in highly inefficient driving conditions,
like while crawling at 5 mph.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> Those aren't gears. They are iso lines of efficiency (solid)
> and power (dashed)
I realise that, however, if this is supposed to be representative of a
multi-speed gearbox, then efficiency would be expected to vary depending
on the gear ratio selected (number of gears in mesh, reduction ratio,
etc.), so it seems somewhat meaningless to have an efficiency map that
doesn't inidicate what gear it is for, nor how efficiency varies in the
other gears (even if that variation is slight).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> Jim Coate posted some reasons why such a hybrid AD/DC drive might be
> advantageous. Basically, it is economics and availability. I can afford
> a smaller AC drive, and boost its accelleration with a cheap DC drive.
I see the point, but I was asking technically why it is more
advantageous. Not advantageous for Jim.
Of course for individuals who convert the best components to use
are those which are already collecting dust in the garage begging
to get used. Thus the opinions are so different - based on individual
circumstances, making academic discussion "what's right" good only
for learning, and almost irrelevant for practically doing anything.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Seth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Those aren't gears. They are iso lines of efficiency (solid)
and power (dashed)
I realise that, however, if this is supposed to be representative of a
multi-speed gearbox, then efficiency would be expected to vary depending
on the gear ratio selected (number of gears in mesh, reduction ratio,
etc.), so it seems somewhat meaningless to have an efficiency map that
doesn't inidicate what gear it is for, nor how efficiency varies in the
other gears (even if that variation is slight).
Cheers,
Roger.
I'll ask details how exactly to interpret this plot.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I suspect that map is for a single speed transmission
But with the exception of reverse, all the gears are always in mesh in
a multispeed manual transmission. They just aren't connected to the
shaft. I don't think the reduction ratio plays much measurable effect
on efficiency other than how it affects the output shaft speed. And for
a given output shaft speed, you can have multiple input shaft speeds,
so that would be where your concern is. For a given vehicle speed you
can only have a single output shaft speend unless you are either
slipping the tires, have variable diameter tires or a two speed rear
axle.
Seth
On Feb 20, 2004, at 9:21 PM, Roger Stockton wrote:
Seth [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Those aren't gears. They are iso lines of efficiency (solid)
and power (dashed)
I realise that, however, if this is supposed to be representative of a
multi-speed gearbox, then efficiency would be expected to vary
depending
on the gear ratio selected (number of gears in mesh, reduction ratio,
etc.), so it seems somewhat meaningless to have an efficiency map that
doesn't inidicate what gear it is for, nor how efficiency varies in the
other gears (even if that variation is slight).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
Most Epic vans were equipped with the Westinghouse -> Northrop-Grumman ->
Satcon motor/controller package (the group kept changing owners). Chrysler
had contracted for about 400 systems, but only ended up building out a
little over 200 vans. They donated a few of the surplus systems to schools
and ended up scrapping out the rest about a year ago. That is almost the
identical system that is in my 1996 Ford/TDM prototype Ranger EVs, which is
why I tried to get spares from Chrysler, but with no luck. BTW I do have one
of the trucks for sale if anyone is interested (listed at www.oeva.org).
Dan
> Rod Hower wrote:
> > I visited Chrysler proving grounds in Auburn Hills
> > and rode in a proto Epic that really kicked ass, even
> > on the 15% grade. I was told it was a Westinghouse
> > system. Did Westinghouse ever go into these vans
> > or was it a Siemans re-lable?. Either system, nice
> > performance.
> > Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
What have others used as alternatives to a shunt for current readings?
I've looked at hall-effect sensors, but most top out at well under 1000
amps. Specific suggestions that are in the ballpark price range of a
shunt would be great.
Thanks,
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is OT but I thought everyone might get a kick out of it. I
almost split my sides laughing.
The source for the xinghuanet article is www.chinaview.cn.
Go to that site and vote on the question "Where should Saddam be
tried?" Then look not only at the results, but at the repeated
question.
Don McGrath
On 20 Feb 2004 at 8:02, Steven Lough wrote:
>
> Paul Wujek wrote <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:39:38 -0500
> To: eV List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> News from China about its progress on electric vehicles.
>
> link:
>
> http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-02/20/content_1323681.htm
>
> Steve Lough adds:
>
> This is a very interesting article, and I agree that because of the
> inherent simplicity of EVs,(Vs-a-Vs a modern computer driven EFI
> engine)
> it is possible that they COULD catch up with us. It would serve the
>
> Big Three right! ( Although I would not care to see it happen ) for
> the Chinese to come up with an affordable, reliable BEV for sale in
> the States. ...Say 65 mph, 100 miles of range, for under $18,000.
> ?? -- Steven S. Lough, Pres. Seattle EV Association 6021 32nd Ave.
> N.E. Seattle, WA 98115-7230 Day: 206 850-8535 Eve: 206 524-1351
> e-mail: NOW AT: [EMAIL PROTECTED] web:
> http://www.seattleeva.org
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 20 Feb 2004, Jim Coate wrote:
> Joining ZipCar is fairly painless - sign up on-line. Rather than wait
Unless you're from a state where ZipCar can't obtain your driving record
easily. I plan to be in Massachusetts next week and wanted to sign up for
ZipCar for the same reason... but since I have a PA license, it isn't that
simple, which means it won't work.
So the RAV4 EV will have to wait for some other trip.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmm, makes sense, I would worry less about them all
failing, and more about them exploding or catching
fire (or is that what you meant by "failing"?!) I
would also be more concerned about an outside source
causing a short, rather than an internal battery short
(the shovel fell over on it kind of thing...) I do
like the 20awg though, that would definately work, as
opposed to my 2/0 or 4/0 thoughts, which would
definatly cause a bad cituation to get worse, as it
would be able to handle the high current flow and
initiate disaster.
Thanks for the englightenment!
Bruce
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce Robertson wrote:
> > You would need a crap load of diodes to isolate
> the
> > batteries from each other and prevent one battery
> from
> > drawing a huge load from the others if it went bad
> > would you not - is this not one of the biggest
> dangers
> > when connecting many batteries in parallel?
> Setting
> > up like this would have all of the batteries
> trying to
> > be 100% equal in charge, and drawing from each
> other
> > to maintain that. (would also need VERY large
> cable
> > in order to be able to handle the higher current
> load
> > if one battery decided to draw from all the other
> > batteries..
>
> Your're right -- if a battery fails shorted, it will
> pull current from
> all the rest and kill them all. Or, melt the wires
> that connect them all
> in parallel.
>
> However, it is rare for a battery to fail shorted,
> especially if it is
> not under a heavy current load at the time (they
> tend to short *because*
> of a very high charge/discharge current).
>
> But, what I do to parallel a large number of
> batteries is to get a roll
> of bare #20 solid wire, and daisy-chain it from
> battery to battery. If
> there *is* a fault, it just melts like a fuse. The
> charger that is
> maintaining them is typically some little regulated
> wall wart that can
> only deliver a few amps at most.
> --
> "Never doubt that a small group of committed people
> can change the
> world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!"
> -- Margaret Meade
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, that's what it is. TDM system in Rangers is Siemens hardware
loaded with drive software modified by TDM. I have seen both
versions.
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
BORTEL wrote:
Rod,
Most Epic vans were equipped with the Westinghouse -> Northrop-Grumman ->
Satcon motor/controller package (the group kept changing owners). Chrysler
had contracted for about 400 systems, but only ended up building out a
little over 200 vans. They donated a few of the surplus systems to schools
and ended up scrapping out the rest about a year ago. That is almost the
identical system that is in my 1996 Ford/TDM prototype Ranger EVs, which is
why I tried to get spares from Chrysler, but with no luck. BTW I do have one
of the trucks for sale if anyone is interested (listed at www.oeva.org).
Dan
Rod Hower wrote:
I visited Chrysler proving grounds in Auburn Hills
and rode in a proto Epic that really kicked ass, even
on the 15% grade. I was told it was a Westinghouse
system. Did Westinghouse ever go into these vans
or was it a Siemans re-lable?. Either system, nice
performance.
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, lower voltage is safer than higher voltage, but
putting batteries in paralell increases the current
which can also be very dangerous.
A constant voltage welder running at 24V can do some
serious damage to something that you don't want
welded. A constant current stick welder running at
300A can also do some VERY serous damage. I believe
that Optima batteries are somewhere in the 600 - 800
CCA range - slap 10 of them together in paralell and
put a dead short across one of them - I guarantee you
can blow a good hole in something, including yourself,
and your eyes will hurt like hell from the flash.
Then remember that most pb batteries have oh, HYDROGEN
in them, oh, and you have TEN of them (or whatever #).
That is my "big bang" theory and I am not about to
do it to show you!
Although, if done like Lee suggested and hooked with
small wire, (essentially a fuse) the risk of drawing
high current for a long enough period to do damage
would be pretty low. I am just saying that while
batteries connected in paralell may have a "low"
"safe" voltage, that does not at all mean that they
are safe. Current kills. as far as I remember
extremely high voltage (like, in the millions) will
actually flow over the outside of your body, and not
harm you, however high current will explode you. (or
something nasty enough that you will wish you had
exploded) There is enough current in a AA cell
(250mA) to stop or start your heart. (if placed in
the right spot)
Never underestimate the power of a battery, in
paralell or in series.
:-) now go play with something safe, like matches.
:-)
Again, correct me if I am wrong.
Bruce
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: battery charging Idea
>
>
> > I agree with Lee:
> >
> > Batteries in parallel do not produce a lot of
> volts, so it is safer to
> have
> > "laying around".
> > Floating them like this will guarantee they are
> full when you need them.
> > Regulating the voltage on float will reduce the
> water consumption.
> > You can put a load on them just as easy as a
> charger to run some energy
> out
> > of them.
> >
>
> ya I'm starting to see this , funny it seemed like
> such a good idea at
> first ( to me at least) .
>
> > The down side is you need twice as many
> interconnects .
> >
> also you lose all the power when cycling which would
> have gone into other
> batteries, but I'm not so happy with the idea
> anymore.
> Steve Clunn
>
>
> > Joe Smalley
> > Rural Kitsap County WA
> > Fiesta 48 volts
> > NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, February 19, 2004 9:06 PM
> > Subject: Re: battery charging Idea
> >
> >
> > > Steve Clunn wrote:
> > > > With a yard full of batteries, I was thinking
> about ways to keep
> > > > them healthy and had this idea. A device with
> dpdt relay that would
> > > > switch the output of each from + to -, a
> voltage sense set up (some
> > > > comparators) to sense full (say 7.5v) and
> empty (say 5.25v). When a
> > > > battery reaches one or the other threshold
> voltages the dpdt would
> > > > switch and the battery's polarity would change
> it in the string of
> > > > batteries being charged.
> > >
> > > It sounds like this would cycle every battery
> (full-dead-full-dead). I'm
> > > not sure this is what you want to do.
> > >
> > > Also, it requires a high voltage string of
> batteries, and a rather
> > > specialized charger.
> > >
> > > An easier approach might be to have a pair of
> wires with a power supply
> > > connected that delivers a reasonable float
> voltage; 13.5v for 12v
> > > lead-acid batteries, for example. Connect all
> the batteries in parallel,
> > > and just let them float, accepting whatever
> current they needed to stay
> > > charged. The power supply would only have to
> supply a fraction of an amp
> > > per battery.
> > > --
> > > "Never doubt that a small group of committed
> people can change the
> > > world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Meade
> > > --
> > > Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
> > >
> >
>
=====
Bruce Robertson
"If they keep raising the price of gas, and lowering education standards, there will
be a lot of stupid people walking around."
"Straight lines are for fast cars, curves are for fast drivers"
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use SSR, mechanical relays, and mercury wetted contacts in machines at
work and the 2 out of the 3 are the bain of my existance. Injection
molding machines have huge contactors on there motors but they don't get
started and stopped but once or twice a day. They last years but fail
spetacularly (75 to dual 100 HP motors on 460 3phase.) The process
heters are supposidly a pure resistive load but with 25 ft from
contactor to heater element I wonder. They cycle 20 to 30 times an hour
and go out all the time. The SSR relays have to be used at 1/3 their
nameplate ratings max and 90% fiail shorted and you can't use a digital
meter on them, must use a "wiggy", the leakage current is significant.
The mechanical ones fail 90% open, a lot more often than the SSR's but
give you some warning. They have started a fire or 2. I think the
manufactures goofed on specing them so I replace them with next size up,
if I can shoehorn them in. The mercury displacement contactors have
50,000 hours on them, whats that a million cycles?, and not 1 failure
yet! In service 15 years and counting. I'll take a look at the brand
and model if anyone is interested, maybe they make larger ones.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 2004-02-20 at 21:00, Bruce Robertson wrote:
> Yes, lower voltage is safer than higher voltage, but
> putting batteries in paralell increases the current
> which can also be very dangerous.
>
> A constant voltage welder running at 24V can do some
> serious damage to something that you don't want
> welded. A constant current stick welder running at
> 300A can also do some VERY serous damage. I believe
> that Optima batteries are somewhere in the 600 - 800
> CCA range - slap 10 of them together in paralell and
> put a dead short across one of them - I guarantee you
> can blow a good hole in something,
A single YT will put out 1200+ amps short circuit, it can blow holes in
metal objects all by itself.
> including yourself,
If you mean by just touching both terminals, not likely. It doesn't
matter how much current is available if it doesn't have the voltage to
push it through the 10K+ ohms of resistance the typical human body has.
> and your eyes will hurt like hell from the flash.
> Then remember that most pb batteries have oh, HYDROGEN
> in them, oh, and you have TEN of them (or whatever #).
Not much free hydrogen in YTs. If you direct short a single YT you are
going to get a heck of a light show, I'm not sure i paralleled YTs would
be more or less dangerous.
It's possible (don't know for sure) that paralleled YTs would push
enough current to instantly vaporized something like a dropped wrench,
whereas a single one my just melt it and end up with a battery melt
down. If the paralleled YTs did vaporize the wrench, they wouldn't have
enough voltage to ignite a plasma arc so the only real damage would be
getting a nice iron oxide coating on everything nearby (including,
perhaps, your leg).
All in all I think your best course of action is to avoi dropping metal
objects on batteries regardless of how they are wired up.
> extremely high voltage (like, in the millions) will
> actually flow over the outside of your body, and not
> harm you, however high current will explode you.
Only if there is enough voltage behind the current to make it flow
through your body. Since the human body typically has something like
10,000 ohms of resistance (with sweaty skin, dry skin = 2+ mega ohms),
in order to get an "explosive" current to flow you'll need millions of
volts.
No matter how much current a battery can source, 12V will only result in
less than 1 milliamp flow through most people. It takes 6-200 milliamps
through the heart to stop it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bummer! :-(
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
Unless you're from a state where ZipCar can't obtain your driving record
easily. I plan to be in Massachusetts next week and wanted to sign up for
ZipCar for the same reason... but since I have a PA license, it isn't that
simple, which means it won't work.
So the RAV4 EV will have to wait for some other trip.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This paragraph caught my eye because I got a working pack from a pile at a
golf cart supply for free. Lawrence Rhodes......
> Coming home from Boston this PM I took a little side trip to 5 Pond
> Park Rd. in Hingham, Evercel's N. American corporate hq. The door
> was locked, the lights were off, the furniture, computers, phones and
> showroom vehicles were gone, and out back by the dumpster was a huge
> pile of M-100's, all presumably junk.
I would presume nothing and would test them all and take the ones with the
highest voltage............
Message: 7
Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2004 10:11:51 -0800
From: David Herron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Evercel is no more!
hurm,
There may be a simpler explanation ... such as, since they're in a
"let's preserve cash" mode, they may have moved their office to even
cheaper digs.
For what it's worth, http://evercel.com still functions.
They apparently haven't filed a 10Q with the SEC since the quarter
ending Sep 30, 2003 (hence the filing woulda been in mid October-ish).
According to the information at www.fool.com - in September they had
$5.41 million cash on hand, other assets that make it $10.xx million,
$2.7 million in debt, and losing $.75 million per quarter. Hence they
should be able to last for 2-3 more years at that burn rate.
But, you're right, this doesn't look good.
- David Herron
On Feb 20, 2004, at 8:19 AM, chashb wrote:
> David Hammond has posted this on the power-assist forum. I'm
> repeating it here for all to see:
>
> "From: "voltaiadesigncoop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu Feb 19, 2004 10:12 pm
> Subject: Evercel Is No More
>
>
> Coming home from Boston this PM I took a little side trip to 5 Pond
> Park Rd. in Hingham, Evercel's N. American corporate hq. The door
> was locked, the lights were off, the furniture, computers, phones and
> showroom vehicles were gone, and out back by the dumpster was a huge
> pile of M-100's, all presumably junk.
>
> This has been more or less expected for some time now. What's really
> bugging me is that the website of the factory in the PRC that makes
> (made?) Evercel's batts is also defunct. www.xmerc.com is the url,
> and it worked last year.
>
> I'll see if I can contact Elio to find out what's going on over in
> Xiamen, and Phoenix Motor Cars to see if their Evercel contract was
> ever fulfilled. I'll get back to y'all if I find out anything.
>
> Dave Hammond"
>
> B U M M E R ! ! ! !
>
> Looks like we'll have to wait and see what happens with the Ni-Zn
> battery technology. Oxygen in Italy has claimed to have a direct
> relationship with Evercel's subsidiary, Xiamen, in China. I sure hope
> that's true because if it isn't, I think Oxygen is going to be in
> major trouble as well......
>
> Charlie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All right guys, this has gone way off-topic for this list. Please take this
conversation off-list.
Thanks.
Tim
----------
Subject: Re: Anti-scooter legislation (Washington State)
From: Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain
Message-Id: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Mime-Version: 1.0
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2004 22:44:50 -0700
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Fair enough, how about the Consumer Product Safety Commission?
http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml01/01222.html
_________________________________________________________________
Take off on a romantic weekend or a family adventure to these great U.S.
locations. http://special.msn.com/local/hotdestinations.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought we were talking about electric scooters...don't those count?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well I won the two 6.6kw induction chargers that were on ebay for $76.
Tomorrow we will get the chargers and try again to charge the batteries on
the two electricars(a prizm and a 3/4 ton pickup). We had one little 1000
watt charger the first time and had no luck getting it two work. I have
learned a lot since then. I have read all the manuals from the Electricar
site. I still can not find a schematic for the charge circuit. Has anyone
ever actually tore into the charge circuit on an Electricar? From what I
saw there is one cable going from the charge port to the charge controller.
In it is 10 or so black leads and 10 or so white leads . All 10 leads of
each polarity are tied together. I assume that is the rectified DC at that
point. But there is one other lead that I am not sure about that goes from
the charge port to the charge controller. Could it be some kind of sense
lead that tells the charger to turn on? Does the voltage of the batteries
have to be a certain voltage for the charger to turn on? If we can just get
the charger to turn on we can bypass the controller, contactors and go
directly to the batteries. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the ebay
chargers,
Jack and Jim.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The small 1KW charger will not work because the the CC200 MagneCharger
Controller software does not send the correct command to allow a proper
amount of current to flow. You can see this happen if you run the CC200
diagnostic software.
It sounds like you are trying to figure out the interconnect between
the various MagneCharger electronics. There is file on the Yahoo group
USElectricar_EV files section called "CC200 - Dolphin
Interconnect.jpg", which shows you what all those wires are. I scanned
this in from a schematic that had some water damage, but it's still
readable. Also look for any other files which have the name CC200 in
them.
The CC200 sends a signal to the Dolphin controller to engage the
contactors. The Dolphin controller may not engage the contactors if the
voltage is too low. The CC200 has no control over the contactors, but
you can engage the contactors manually by removing a cable from the
Dolphin unit and applying 12V to the proper connectors.
Have you tried joining and posting your questions on the
USElectricar_EV Yahoo group? There are many people there who have
experience resurrecting low voltage battery packs. See
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar_ev/
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 21, 2004, at 12:36 AM, Jack Knopf wrote:
Well I won the two 6.6kw induction chargers that were on ebay for $76.
Tomorrow we will get the chargers and try again to charge the
batteries on
the two electricars(a prizm and a 3/4 ton pickup). We had one little
1000
watt charger the first time and had no luck getting it two work. I have
learned a lot since then. I have read all the manuals from the
Electricar
site. I still can not find a schematic for the charge circuit. Has
anyone
ever actually tore into the charge circuit on an Electricar? From
what I
saw there is one cable going from the charge port to the charge
controller.
In it is 10 or so black leads and 10 or so white leads . All 10 leads
of
each polarity are tied together. I assume that is the rectified DC at
that
point. But there is one other lead that I am not sure about that goes
from
the charge port to the charge controller. Could it be some kind of
sense
lead that tells the charger to turn on? Does the voltage of the
batteries
have to be a certain voltage for the charger to turn on? If we can
just get
the charger to turn on we can bypass the controller, contactors and go
directly to the batteries. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the ebay
chargers,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes I tried, THEY, decided I could not join the group.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alex Karahalios" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2004 2:11 AM
Subject: Re: Cheap Induction Chargers on Ebay
> The small 1KW charger will not work because the the CC200 MagneCharger
> Controller software does not send the correct command to allow a proper
> amount of current to flow. You can see this happen if you run the CC200
> diagnostic software.
>
> It sounds like you are trying to figure out the interconnect between
> the various MagneCharger electronics. There is file on the Yahoo group
> USElectricar_EV files section called "CC200 - Dolphin
> Interconnect.jpg", which shows you what all those wires are. I scanned
> this in from a schematic that had some water damage, but it's still
> readable. Also look for any other files which have the name CC200 in
> them.
>
> The CC200 sends a signal to the Dolphin controller to engage the
> contactors. The Dolphin controller may not engage the contactors if the
> voltage is too low. The CC200 has no control over the contactors, but
> you can engage the contactors manually by removing a cable from the
> Dolphin unit and applying 12V to the proper connectors.
>
> Have you tried joining and posting your questions on the
> USElectricar_EV Yahoo group? There are many people there who have
> experience resurrecting low voltage battery packs. See
>
> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar_ev/
>
> Alex Karahalios
>
> On Feb 21, 2004, at 12:36 AM, Jack Knopf wrote:
>
> > Well I won the two 6.6kw induction chargers that were on ebay for $76.
> > Tomorrow we will get the chargers and try again to charge the
> > batteries on
> > the two electricars(a prizm and a 3/4 ton pickup). We had one little
> > 1000
> > watt charger the first time and had no luck getting it two work. I have
> > learned a lot since then. I have read all the manuals from the
> > Electricar
> > site. I still can not find a schematic for the charge circuit. Has
> > anyone
> > ever actually tore into the charge circuit on an Electricar? From
> > what I
> > saw there is one cable going from the charge port to the charge
> > controller.
> > In it is 10 or so black leads and 10 or so white leads . All 10 leads
> > of
> > each polarity are tied together. I assume that is the rectified DC at
> > that
> > point. But there is one other lead that I am not sure about that goes
> > from
> > the charge port to the charge controller. Could it be some kind of
> > sense
> > lead that tells the charger to turn on? Does the voltage of the
> > batteries
> > have to be a certain voltage for the charger to turn on? If we can
> > just get
> > the charger to turn on we can bypass the controller, contactors and go
> > directly to the batteries. Anyway, thanks for the heads up on the ebay
> > chargers,
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry to hear you are having problems joining the USElectricar_EV
group. THEY are actually Bruce Parmenter ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), who is a
regular contributor to this group and the moderator of USElectricar_EV
group. Since you own two of these vehicles, I don't see any problem in
joining the group. Maybe you should send an email directly to Bruce
asking what is going on.
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 21, 2004, at 1:23 AM, Jack Knopf wrote:
Yes I tried, THEY, decided I could not join the group.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At the close of business Friday, February 20, 2004, Evercel, listed as stock
symbol EVRC on the NASDAQ, was up a penny to $0.55. This is certainly far from
their share price of even a few months ago, but they are still in business.
Hopefully they will make it in some form or another.
Lawson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, while I have never really worried about blowing myself up by
touching a 12 volt source, I have wondered if there could be another
problem:
If you were to parallel say 20 hawkers together into one big 12 volt
battery, what happens if one of those hawkers goes bad in the middle of
the night? Shorts out, heck knows what. 19 other Hawkers will gladly
feed their current into the now shorted battery.
Bad? On my shed project I followed the NEC requirements for solar panels
in parallel and put a series fuse on the end (well, actually in the
middle) of each series string of batteries. Thus if one string were to
go bad, the fuse would blow before the other strings fed themselves thru it.
Overkill?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Otmar,
Do you need a special external RS-232 to SCI converter?
No, the resident bootloader loads hex files through the serial port
in ASCII. Most standard terminals can do it (ZTerm on Macs, Hyperterm
in devil ware)
Devil-ware! he he :-)
As an unrelated question ( probably OT, so answers probably
best posted off-list ), can anyone tell me where to find
a Linux program that is like Hyperterminal?
I need to "talk" to a small computer board that speaks plain
ond RS232 ASCII text. No phone numbers to dial, just straight
RS232 connection. I hate having to reboot in Windoze just to
reload that board, apart from that, I never use Windoze at home now.
Most flash micro's need extra pins to enable the bootloader. Is
this on board or would it be on the external board above.
I think you may be thinking of the "in circuit serial programming",
but that is different from a bootloader. My bootloader loads through
the serial port with a text interface.
Right, the PIC 18's don't have a bootloader like some other micros.
So you have to "roll your own", which is obviously what Oat's done.
There are some terminals marked "cruise"
Is this what I think it is? (cruise control!)
Yes, The inputs are there, the code is not yet. I can imagine all
sorts of modes. (how about constant power to check car efficiency)
Actually, I can think of a good one - a bit unrelated to "cruise",
but for auto tranny's that like to have their input shaft rotating,
just to keep fluid pressure whilst you're waiting at a stop light.
Yes, you could put an external pump on the tranny, but if you
haven't, it might be useful.
Maybe the "accelerator to amps" function will do this anyway?
Or even the right value resistor to shunt the potbox
( don't like that idea )
Also, I see an port on the end marked
"EVIL bus". Does this mean EVILbus has made it into a real
production design? ( cool, if it has!)
Again, the Hardware is there, though the parts are not stuffed on the
standard one. (I hope it works!) Once I have code to drive it, I'll
offer the option.
Ok.
Lastly, how easy is it to add extra functions to the hairball?
Hmm, that's a tough one. Not very easy for anyone but me, and even
then not that easy. There are thousands of lines of C code and years
of development in the Hairball. I don't think I want to make that
public at this time. We can talk about it more. Do you have a Hi-Tech
PICC-18 compiler? (Not a cheap item, but it sure works)
I can see how it would be nice to have the automatic transmission
programmable by currents and voltages.
I can appreciate that you wouldn't want to release the code -
- you paid to develop it! Also it could open a can of worms
liability-wise, since anyone modifying the code is effectively modifying
the controller.
I don't have the HiTech PICC compiler, but do have the CCS compiler
which is broadly compatible. If a nice PIC project comes along in
work, I might be able to persuade the bosses that we need the
HiTech compiler.... ;-)
It might be easier just to do a separate little board
( with a PIC of course! ) that runs the gearbox, and just have it
give the Zilla a shift-blanking signal when it makes the box change
gear. Or even just fool the Supra's existing gearbox computer into
running in kickdown most of the time ( for high motor rpm's and better
efficiency ) then dropping into "normal" drive if you mash the pedal.
( lower motor rpm, so you can stuff lots of amps through the motor(s) )
This could be done just by reversing the operation of the linkage
that connects the throttle to the gearbox.
OK, I'm going back to finding a stutter bug. I need to find it before
I ship any of the new HB2s. I don't have any more of the old Hairball
cases to ship so it's all HB2 from here on out. Lot's of orders to
fill... I'm not complaining, but it's work..
Any work's better than no work! ( well most of the time! ;-)
Regards
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> What have others used as alternatives to a shunt for current readings?
> I've looked at hall-effect sensors, but most top out at well under 1000
> amps. Specific suggestions that are in the ballpark price range of a
> shunt would be great.
The most common alternative is just a length of copper wire; one of the
pieces already part of the vehicle's wiring harness. Good point: It's
cheap, easy, and obviously can be sized for any current. Bad points: You
have to calibrate it yourself, and copper changes its resistance with
temperature, so it is less accurate.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One other thing that ZipCar told me was that during the really cold
weather (consistently < 30 degrees F), they take the Rav4 EVs out of
service. They apparently had problems with them during the prolonged
cold spell we had about a month ago.
But... I thought one of the perks of Nickle-based chemistries was being
indifferent to the cold, although more sensitive to heat. During my
drive yesterday it was probably 40-ish and after a bit I noticed fans
running in the back which I thought were to cool the battery down.
Now that the initial thrill has worn off, logical thought sets in... not
being able to drive on cold New England days would be a bad thing,
rather eliminating NiMH as 'the holy grail' of batteries.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
