EV Digest 3377
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Batteries die for *NO* reason. Why?
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC4-4002 6.75 inch 75v 7HP ADC motor (Tropica)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) BLDC vs Induction
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Newbie EV'er - Fry's His E-meter!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: AC4-4002 6.75 inch 75v 7HP ADC motor (Tropica)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Boiling out the electrolyte
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Fw: NRT2 Nokian
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Playing with a Basic Stamp
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Fw: NRT2 Nokian
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Voltage to motor
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EBEAA Meeting this Saturday, 2/28/04 10-12 in Alameda, CA
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Playing with a Basic Stamp
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Bladez Electric scooter
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It had run low on water. I popped off the cover (just a plastic snap-on
piece) and opened the little vent caps to see dried out, cracked gel. In
most of the cells.
Possibly. I think I am now going to drill out the top of this battery
and see what's up in there.
I added distilled water to all of them, giving them time to soak in, and
then charged and discharged it a couple of times. Now it works fine again.
I leave the cover off, and check it regularly like any flooded battery.
Since the Dynasty rattled, I think it's too late for it. But the hawker
would probably respond to treatment if you could get to the insides without
destroying the battery.
Perhaps what I am hearing in there is the electrolyte rattling around.
The hawker does not make this sound.
I think what happens is the battery gets a little overcharged, and loses a
bit of water. Now it has a slightly higher internal resistance, and heats
up on charge a bit more, and requires a higher voltage to push charge
current through it. The next charge, it loses more water, and it dominos
from there.
Possible. Although on the production Prizm this winter the pack is lucky
to get to 20 degrees C by the end-of-charge. I can't imagine that the
heat generated at this point would overcome the re-combiners that are
built into the batteries.
Since your Dynasty was on float, the damage has probably occurred over a
long time, and it just now showed symptoms. It probably needed a little
less voltage on float (due to manufacturing differences) that the others it
was teamed with. So a little damage occurred continuously while it was on
float charge. Since it was paralleled with another 24V string, that string
did most of the work, and kept the system going, since the battery in
question would sag under load.
*nod* This makes a lot of sense. I will be taking this battery apart and
looking inside. Nothing to lose really in the grand scheme of things.
Might as well also take a look inside the "good" battery that was it's
pair.
Same with the Hawker if last night's charge doesn't make it happy.
However this Genesis "control" battery has just been sitting for most of
it's life and has gotten maybe 5 charges this year just to peak it off.
Lee had a great piece on battery care that was based on if it was a family
pet. It summarizes all the different ways we can be cruel to them without
even realizing it.
Mmm... It's a real devil of a problem, and in reading the Sparrow lists
I see it there as well: Charge the battery too little and you sulfate.
Charge too much and it dries out. Equalize or your individual cells will
go dead. Equalize and your batteries will dry out. Float it and the
mysterious "grid plate corrosion" will destroy your battery. Don't drive
your car to the limit and range will go down. Drive your car to the
limit and you will reduce your battery life. Temp compensate or your
batteries will be doomed. Temp compensate and your batteries will be doomed.
And of course "follow the manufacturer's instructions for max battery
life". But when those instructions explicitly state that undercharge is
worse than overcharge and to follow the IUI plan and you do and it dries
out anyway :-)
Etc. Etc. Etc. :-)
And now I wonder if simply leaving a battery alone is enough to kill it.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
At one time, having owned 26 of these Tropica motors, I thought I'd reply.
Chris Tromley wrote:
> This is intriguing. I've heard a bit about these motors, but would like
> more details. I think they are the same mechanical package as the ADC
> A89 series?
Yes.
> The A89 supposedly is suitable for 36-72 V operation
> (nameplate says 36 V). Is the Tropica version wound for a higher
> voltage?
No, but it is wound differently. If anything, it seems wound for a lower voltage. Both
motors set at neutral timing, the stock A89 when fed from a 12V battery, spins at ~
1600
rpm unloaded. The Tropica AC4-4002 when fed from the same battery, spins at a higher ~
2000 rpm unloaded.
>
> I was thinking about mounting a motor like this to the transmission of
> an older BMW motorcycle and running it at 96 to maybe 120 V.
Damon Henry uses one of these motors on his NiCad powered motorcycle, but at a lower
48V,
so the motor gets fairly hot because higher average currents are needed at 48V, rather
than 72V. He gets pretty impressive performance from this motor on his heavy
motorcycle.
> Too much?
Not if you advance the timing.
>
> Just how long is the shaft?
3 and 7/8 inches
> Enough to fit a coupling for a car-like
> flywheel?
Oh sure, it's got nearly twice as much shaft area to mount stuff on as a stock A89,
which
has a 2 and 1/4 inch shaft.
It's the different windings, the extra long shaft, and a differently machined output
end
bell (but with the same four, 4.25 inch C to C threaded holes), that differentiates the
AC4-4002 from the stock A89. The brushes and brush rigging look to be identical, as
does
the commutator segments. Both motors use the same motor frame, but it's turned around
between the two, so that on the A89 the field terminals are very close to the brush
terminals, but with the AC4-4002, the field terminals are at the other end of the
frame,
close to the output end bell and farther away from the brush terminals.
Back to the shaft length of the AC4-4002...you'd probably have to saw off about half
the
length to get it down to where the mass of a flywheel was closer to the motor frame,
for
better stability and less shaft shake.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Seth Murray posed a fine question which has received some great answers.
There is one more operational difference to consider. This concerns
motors which have the major electric power input to the stator and
deliver mechanical power via the rotor. There are power losses in the
stator windings and for the BLDC in the electronics. The remainder
and majority of the power must cross the air gap and reach the rotor.
BLDC motors pull the rotor along synchronously and, therefore, have no
rotor loss.
Induction motors must have slip to operate. Developed electromagnetic
torque in the rotor times the synchronous speed in rad/sec is the power
crossing the air gap. That same torque times the shaft speed is the
power delivered to the shaft. If there is 4% slip, then 4% of the
air gap power is lost in the rotor.
Power lost in the induction motor rotor is probably comparable to that
lost in the electronics of the BLDC motor.
Hope this helps.
Rhett
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I Jim and all
about a week after my e-meter went down ( amps read -275 when at 0) while
"seeing what the truck would do " I think I figured what caused it and it
was not the usual, . After the meter took a dive I drove very easy , later I
noticed that the truck didn't seem to have the zip , about a week later the
1000 amp t-rez let out its smoke and walked no more. The turned down 600
t-rex which had lived in the truck before is still working fine ( but only
shows 200 battery amps max ) and is still working in my ev ranger. I feel
pretty sure that something went in the controller the time the meter went.
Last meter repair form Xantrex was $75 . Now before anybody starts feeling
sorry of me and my t-rex, I'll tell the rest of the story .The day Otmar
posted the inside info on how he makes his controllers so good was the day
the UPS guy brought a zilla for Chris Sharp's car , (the one that's been
sitting in my yard for over a year while he saves money for parts) . I was
hard but I resisted the urge to try it out in one of my cars and just kept
on working on his car , making the battery boxes . When the T-rex blow I
could resisted no more , " Chris , I'm thinking we should test out your
controller in a working EV to see that everything works " ;-) . Well ,
I'm walking around with the stupid EV grin again , yes even with the battery
amps turned down to 500 ( Chris is going to use golf cart batteries ) and
the battery voltage lowered form 216v to 156v the Mazda has got some real
power now. I'm wondering how much input John W. had on the zilla setup as it
LOOKs very neat and clean in the set up . Maybe some are thinking that the
water cooling is a bother but I didn't have any problem , and am using a
fuel pump for now . The water never even seems to get warm , and I have
done a few "see what it will do " test. Chris may come down this weekend
to do some work on his car so I may have to part with the zilla ( or work
very slow ) .
There's a little more to the story but , I have to go make some money to pay
for MY zilla .
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:02 PM
Subject: Re: Newbie EV'er - Fry's His E-meter!
> Back when it was the eMeter from Cruising Equipment, they repaired 2
> meters for me (hangs head in shame for repeating the mistake). Cost was
> reasonable, like $50/meter.
>
> I think DIY repairs inside the meter are unlikely... tight quarters,
> surface mount components. You'd have to really know what was what and
> have the appropriate tools. (see
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/e_meter_top.jpg and
> http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/e_meter_bottom.jpg )
>
> Perhaps someone else will have the desired quick (external) fix...
>
> dan shoop wrote:
> > I'm considering sending it back to Xantrex for repair but after reading
> > the statements in the manual like,"Your E-meter purchase includes one 15
> > minute
> > phone call. Subsequent calls will be billed $1.00/min.. Have your Visa
> > number ready." kind of made me think I should try you guys first.
> >
> > Any ideas for a quick fix? Just send it back to Xantrex? Anybody else
> > work on these things?
>
>
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
> I remember something about brush break-in, in one of my old motor
> repair manuals that go way back... They wrap #0 or #00 sandpaper
> around the commutator and spin the rotor.
Yes, that works. This method has the advantage of causing the brushes to
tilt in their holders the same way they will when the emotor is running.
Be careful to blow out the dust and grit when done.
> When I look this up in this manual, I seen a statement that said, DO
> NOT ANGLE THE BRUSHES ON COMMUTATOR.
This just means not to angle the brush so only one edge touches the
commutaor. Of course, if the brush holder itself is at an angle, the
brush has to copy this angle. Brushes are sometimes angled if the motor
consistently runs in one direction.
> When I bought a set of brushes for a spare set back in the 80's,
> they cost $250.00 back then from GE. They look like hard tool steel.
That sounds like robbery, unless they were very special brushes. There
*are* brushes loaded with copper or even silver, for example.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> John Wayland
Good info, John.
On the AC4-4002 shaft length, indeed this motor DID have a long shaft when I
purchased it. But now it is much shorter, at only 1-1/4inch.
I expect the motor to be sold today.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I had one of those "dumb charger" moments last night that turned into a
bit of an EVent. About 8:30pm I remembered that my motorcycle was on
charge. At first I got a shot of addrenaline, but quickly remebered that at
about 3:30 I had checked it and the voltage was at about 54V charging at
about 10amps so I turned up the knob on the variac to goose it up to about
13 amps (which is all the harder I like to push this variac since it is on
loan to me from John W.). I figured even though I had forgot about it and
it should have been done charging a couple of hours ago there would surely
only be a couple of amps going through the pack at this point as the voltage
should have risen up to about 65V and everything would be happy. I went out
and checked on it and it was sitting at 56V and pushing 15amps. I knew
something was definitely not right as I had only taken it out for about an 8
- 10 mile 50mph jaunt which should have used up about 40ah of my 100ah pack.
I had one of those moments when you know something is just not right and
it is not something you should ignore, but I really had no idea what had
happened. My wife wasn't home, and I figured it was possible but not likely
that she had turned off the charger for a while and turned it back on. It
was also time to get all the kids in bed, so I left the garage and took care
of the kids. About a half hour later I was done with the kids and the wife
was just coming home, so at the same time I am asking her if she had turned
off my charger I am opening the garage door. Uh Oh, something is smoking!
I shut down the charger and started to investigate. Turns out that one of
my SAFT modules was boiling away like crazy and steam was coming out of the
vents. It was a lot of steam! I removed the battery out of the pack and
let it sit outside to cool off. It was fairly warm to the touch on the
case, but not hot. The terminals were not hot either. I can only still
wonder at this point what the root cause failure was, and what damage I did
to the rest of my pack. I'm not even sure that this battery was the one
that caused the problem, so there will be plenty to investigate later when I
get a chance.
That report on the SAFT failures that was posted a couple of weeks ago sure
looks like it applies to these batteries. I looked on the cases after I
read that report, but could not find any kind of manufacturing date code. I
have lots more of these modules than what I need on the bike at one time,
and I keep hoping that I can find 8 that will continue to work well, but I
am starting to wonder. I may not have a NiCad powered EV much longer at
this rate. That will be a shame, because I sure love the range.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] is the dealers email. I had some sent last year 175 70
R13. Seem to work well. Some dealers have over stock. I paid about 40
bucks plus 15 for shipping plus 15 for mounting and balancing. Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: NRT2 Nokian
> What dealer? We don't have any in Missouri and when I called the 1-800
> number the factory rep referred me to a dealer in Illinois. He reported
> the NT2 was out of production and being replaced by a new tire I think he
> called the NRE. Due to snow tire production, those were not expected to
be
> available until March or so.
>
> I need a set for a '95 Force, and had been considering other tires
instead.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> '95 Solectria Force (almost there)
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV List Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
>
> At 12:28 PM 2/25/2004, you wrote:
> >Message I received from a tire dealer. Lawrence Rhodes...
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Greer Enterprises" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 10:27 AM
> >Subject: Re: NRT2 Nokian
> >
> >
> > > Yes. We have most sizes in stock today.
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 2:13 AM
> > > Subject: NRT2 Nokian
> > >
> > >
> > > > Is this tire still available? Lawrence Rhodes......
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I lost the brush on my 18amp variac, just as I was completing my new
dumb charger I have been trying to figure out exactly what I want to do to
charge my motorcycle. I really don't see much available off the shelf to
charge my 48V 100ahr pack of Nicads. The whole bike has only cost me $1500,
so spending more then just a couple of hundred dollars would be over budget.
I have had my eye on the 20 amp motorized variacs that Fair Radio sells
since they were suggested to me several months ago by someone on this list.
While in Radio Shack the other day I saw they had a "What are
Microcontrollers" education kit for $79.99. A motorized variac with a
microcontroller seems like an inexpensive way to build a customized smart
battery charger, so after thinking about it for a week and googling around
to see what else was available, I went down and picked up the kit yesterday.
What a nice kit and a fun way to learn.
Now, I already know what a microcontroller is, and actually have some formal
education in this field, but my career followed computers, and it's been a
dozen or so years since I plugged anything into a breadboard. This kit is a
great education tool that many of the hobbiest on this list might be
interested in. If you read Rich's or Otmar's posts about how they put
things together and from time to time get the bug to build some cool stuff
yourself, this kit will do a good job of helping you understand what kind of
brains you can easily build into any circuit. This kit works especially
well for me as a lot of the programming I have done over the years has been
some form of basic, so programming the microcontroller is a real no brainer.
The tutorials are written at a very basic level that anyone should be able
to understand, and the kit comes with a variety of resisters, diodes,
capacitors and other devices to build circuits with and control devices,
none of which I would have just had laying around. I showed it to my kids
and they were all intrigued and I'm looking forward to going through some of
the projects with them to introduce them not only to microcontrollers, but
basic electrical theory.
It looks to me like for just a couple of hundred dollars I should be able to
build a 0-120V 20amp variac based charger that I can easily load with any
custom charging profile I can think up. Not only that, but I can have lots
of fun along the way:-)
Here is what I bought.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&product%5Fid=276-625
You can get lots more information from http://www.parallax.com
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod Hower wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Honda
> and Toyota hybrids use BLDC (this is slang for
> synchronous AC).
Yes, that is correct from what I've seen.
> Highest efficiency can be obtained with a BLDC motor.
...at full load. The trouble is, with a fixed-strength field (from the
permanent magnets), you have full magnetic losses all the time, even at
light load. This makes the light-load efficiency worse. If you were
going to put a 100kw drive in a car that only needs 10kw to cruise, the
PM AC drive motor would be worse than the AC induction motor (whose
losses are proportional to power).
> UQM has designed some interesting motors that have field weakening
> (extra windings or magnets, I'm not familier with their setup).
That's interesting. I wonder how they are doing it?
> I think the best BLDC is one that has an ironless
> stator.
Yes, this can get rid of the iron losses. However, it also usually
results in a mechanically weak rotor. Iron is a lot stronger than
copper.
One interesting approach is to build an ironless rotor motor, but hold
the rotor motionless and rotate the case! This will give you a high
rotating mass, but high efficiency.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
>
> --- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Reverend Gadget wrote:
> > >> The type of bldc I had in mind was the permanent
> > >> magnet on the rotor type, with commutation
> > achieved
> > >> electronically on the field magnets.
> >
> > I think you meant stator windings, not "field
> > magnets".
> Thank you, that is what I meant.
> > But yes, this is one kind of brushless DC motor.
> > Another name for this
> > type of bldc is a "PM AC synchronous motor".
>
> I guess the question is between the "AC induction
> motor" and a "PM AC synchronous motor". what do you
> all think?
It all depends on what you want. There are so many types of motors
because there are so many types of applications for them. All different!
What's your goal? High efficiency? Low cost? High power-to-weight ratio?
Wide torque-speed range? Pick one (or maybe two) and we can begin to
narrow down the choices.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wrote:
> > When I bought a set of brushes for a spare set back in the
> 80's, they
> > cost $250.00 back then from GE. They look like hard tool steel.
In response, Lee wrote:
> That sounds like robbery, unless they were very special brushes. There
> *are* brushes loaded with copper or even silver, for example.
When I had the brushes in the 9" GE in my escort replaced, Warfield was the
least expensive source. They were also around $200. I believe GE used a
semi-special compound with excellent wear and conduction properties. I
didn't have a feel for whether that was cheap or expensive at the time, but
I knew that Warfield does good work and has quality components, and they
were also the most reasonable cost. So I went with them with no hesitation.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ouch. The guy who bought Rod's Fiero did almost exactly the same thing with
his STM5-180s - forgot about them and left the charger on. He'd gotten the
modules used from Saft in a great deal. It makes me grit my teeth when I
think that I could have used those 180s, and _I_ would have taken proper
care of them. Grrr!
Ah well. Back to Damon's experience.
This sort of event would be a lot less likely with a smart charger. IMO,
it's false economy to use a dumb charger with any battery, and the smarter
(more expensive) the battery is, the smarter the charger has to be.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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Advertising (n): the science of arresting the human
intelligence for long enough to get money from it.
-- Stephen Leacock
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 26 Feb 2004 at 9:10, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I had some sent last year 175 70
> R13. Seem to work well.
Sheesh, it took me MONTHS to get four NRT2s in that size. They had to be
ordered directly from Finland. They cost me a lot more than you paid, too -
about $70 each with shipping.
And these guys had them in stock. I wish I'd known that before I put all
that time, effort, and money into the deal.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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The question can arise whether with the development of such tech-
nological means of communication as radio, film, and the daily
press, freedom of thought is possible at all. Does this not mean
constant infection with whatever ideas are in circulation?
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry writes:
>
> That report on the SAFT failures that was posted a couple of weeks ago sure
> looks like it applies to these batteries. I looked on the cases after I
> read that report, but could not find any kind of manufacturing date code. I
> have lots more of these modules than what I need on the bike at one time,
> and I keep hoping that I can find 8 that will continue to work well, but I
> am starting to wonder. I may not have a NiCad powered EV much longer at
> this rate. That will be a shame, because I sure love the range.
Damon,
The date code is stamped on the top of the modules, on the cap cover.
Your's are all from 1996 if I remember correctly.
It sounds like you merely overcharged the modules. If the hot one was
somewhat uniformly hot, instead of very hot in one area, you probably
didn't damage the module.
Ralph
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--- Begin Message ---
How much CAN one go over the name plate voltage on a ADC motor? Let's say
just for 1/8 mile.
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--- Begin Message ---
What I don't understand is why did the pack voltage not rise like usual and
the current ramp down. There really should have been no problem with this
happening as the current should have been at only 2 to 3 amps by this time.
The only kind of charger that would have caught this is something like a
Brusa which actually tracks AHRS in and out of the pack, as everything
looked fine according to both voltage and current settings. The charger was
charging at exactly what it should have been according to those readings. I
even looked at individual module voltages as soon as I turned off the
charger and nothing jumped out as being way out of line.
I'm not sure that I have even hurt anything as I did catch this before
anything was more then just reasonably warm (on the outside), and all that
was coming out of the one battery was steam, and that is easy to replace.
Besides this whole pack was earmarked for the battery recycler when I
removed them from Ralph's garage, so any use I get out of them is bonus
time.
They work so nice when they work, I will really miss them when I can't use
them anymore.
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:05:25 -0500
Ouch. The guy who bought Rod's Fiero did almost exactly the same thing
with
his STM5-180s - forgot about them and left the charger on. He'd gotten the
modules used from Saft in a great deal. It makes me grit my teeth when I
think that I could have used those 180s, and _I_ would have taken proper
care of them. Grrr!
Ah well. Back to Damon's experience.
This sort of event would be a lot less likely with a smart charger. IMO,
it's false economy to use a dumb charger with any battery, and the smarter
(more expensive) the battery is, the smarter the charger has to be.
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David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
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--- Begin Message ---
*********START OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT***********
Topic: 2004 EV Rally Planning (and bonus)
Saturday, February 28, 2004
>From 10 to 12 noon.
Meeting Location: Alameda First Baptist Church, 1515 Santa Clara Ave,
Alameda, CA
Visitors welcome, open to the public.
We have two Rallies each year. In these events, we have a opportunity to
gather our EVs together, display and share notes, expose and educate the
public and drive to show how EVs perform.
In anticipation of our Spring Rally in Concord/Pleasant Hill area, we need
to take some time to plan out the tasks and encourage participation. This
Spring Rally is a great occasion for EVers in the greater Walnut Creek area
and Contra Costa County to participate. The Caldecot Tunnel and Coastal
Range mountains creates quite a strong dividing line between EVs along the
Bay (from Vallejo down to Fremont) and those on the edge of the Central
Valley region (from Benicia down to Pleasanton). Our Fall Rally takes place
on the Bay side, in Hayward.
We also have a hands-on event at the end of the meeting. One of our members
has a CitiCar (http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/496.html) and is in need to
changing out the battery pack. We have new batteries and will be swapping
out the old pack right after the meeting. Great application of maintenance
techniques discussed last month.
Directions: Our meeting location is at a Church building, which is on North
side of street, at the corner of Santa Clara Ave and Stanton St in Alameda.
Turn North on Stanton St. and left into the parking lot.
Area charging is available. Please contact us if you need to be shuttled
from a charging site. Or, as one of our members does, bring along an EV
(push) scooter in your trunk and shuttle yourself in style. Note that the
Alameda Power and Telecom offices, just about 5 blocks away, no longer has
any EV charging, due to a vandalism problem (and lack of EVs in their
current fleet).
http://www.geocities.com/ebeaa
**********END OF MEETING ANNOUNCEMENT************
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--- Begin Message ---
> Since I lost the brush on my 18amp variac, just as I was completing my new
> dumb charger I have been trying to figure out exactly what I want to do to
> charge my motorcycle. I really don't see much available off the shelf to
> charge my 48V 100ahr pack of Nicads. The whole bike has only cost me
$1500,
> so spending more then just a couple of hundred dollars would be over
budget.
> I have had my eye on the 20 amp motorized variacs that Fair Radio sells
> since they were suggested to me several months ago by someone on this
list.
>
> While in Radio Shack the other day I saw they had a "What are
> Microcontrollers" education kit for $79.99. A motorized variac with a
> microcontroller seems like an inexpensive way to build a customized smart
> battery charger, so after thinking about it for a week and googling around
> to see what else was available, I went down and picked up the kit
yesterday.
> What a nice kit and a fun way to learn.
One of the first iterations of QM's charger was exactly this - a big
open-frame variac driven by a motor.
It's not hard.. you can also pick up a radio shack RS232 multimeter, hook it
to one of the basic stamp's pins, and then write simple 'chase-my-own-tail'
software to follow whatever voltage or current limits you'd like. You have a
few choices, but probably a BS2 [slow, but gets there] is sufficient. Or you
can go for the BS2SX if you feel the need to try and bit-bang anything. I
don't advise the BS1 because the program store and ram are both awfully
limited.
> Now, I already know what a microcontroller is, and actually have some
formal
> education in this field, but my career followed computers, and it's been a
> dozen or so years since I plugged anything into a breadboard. This kit is
a
> great education tool that many of the hobbiest on this list might be
> interested in. If you read Rich's or Otmar's posts about how they put
> things together and from time to time get the bug to build some cool stuff
> yourself, this kit will do a good job of helping you understand what kind
of
> brains you can easily build into any circuit. This kit works especially
> well for me as a lot of the programming I have done over the years has
been
> some form of basic, so programming the microcontroller is a real no
brainer.
Well, except unlike the VESTA boards that Lee has had me playing with, the
Basic Stamp basic is really limited / braindead. It reminds me more of
assembly made to look like basic than 'real' basic.
> The tutorials are written at a very basic level that anyone should be able
> to understand, and the kit comes with a variety of resisters, diodes,
> capacitors and other devices to build circuits with and control devices,
> none of which I would have just had laying around. I showed it to my kids
> and they were all intrigued and I'm looking forward to going through some
of
> the projects with them to introduce them not only to microcontrollers, but
> basic electrical theory.
Microcontrollers are great fun for kids - I played with a VIC-20 (in essence
a microcontroller with a screen) quite a lot in my younger years, using it
to control robots and whatnot.
But, I would advise for the kids either a microcontroller with a real basic
like the VESTA boards, or going for assembly. The basic stamp's 'halfway'
basic seems like it would cause as much frustration as assembly without
having the same power and flexibility.
> It looks to me like for just a couple of hundred dollars I should be able
to
> build a 0-120V 20amp variac based charger that I can easily load with any
> custom charging profile I can think up. Not only that, but I can have
lots
> of fun along the way:-)
I certainly managed.
A few warnings: most moterized variacs are not intended to have their motors
run continuously. This was what resulted in the demise of my first charger.
Build some hysteresis into the code.
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--- Begin Message ---
Don't worry about boiling the electrolyte(not to much though stay under
45�C), Saft modules like making bubble, it's the unique way to equalize
them, you will just put more water on the next watering service.
If you want to have full capacity and good life you have to constant current
charge them !!!
cheaper way is link10 to track amp in/out and always discharge under 20%SOC
and charge at about 120% capacity.
The date code is hot engrave on the top of the cell near watering entrance,
it's like dd/mm/yy.
Not all the 1999 modules were defective, just track burn traces under
modules time to time, and mesure the temp permanently.
keep with saft ni-cad, it is the best, my EV motorbike will have soon their
new 60V50ah aircraft starting Saft ni-cad pack, 3kwh will make my commute
easily and 20C power will keep the EVilrace side of my Aprilia RS happy !!!
keep plugged,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Boiling out the electrolyte
> So I had one of those "dumb charger" moments last night that turned into a
> bit of an EVent. About 8:30pm I remembered that my motorcycle was on
> charge. At first I got a shot of addrenaline, but quickly remebered that
at
> about 3:30 I had checked it and the voltage was at about 54V charging at
> about 10amps so I turned up the knob on the variac to goose it up to about
> 13 amps (which is all the harder I like to push this variac since it is
on
> loan to me from John W.). I figured even though I had forgot about it and
> it should have been done charging a couple of hours ago there would surely
> only be a couple of amps going through the pack at this point as the
voltage
> should have risen up to about 65V and everything would be happy. I went
out
> and checked on it and it was sitting at 56V and pushing 15amps. I knew
> something was definitely not right as I had only taken it out for about an
8
> - 10 mile 50mph jaunt which should have used up about 40ah of my 100ah
pack.
> I had one of those moments when you know something is just not right and
> it is not something you should ignore, but I really had no idea what had
> happened. My wife wasn't home, and I figured it was possible but not
likely
> that she had turned off the charger for a while and turned it back on. It
> was also time to get all the kids in bed, so I left the garage and took
care
> of the kids. About a half hour later I was done with the kids and the
wife
> was just coming home, so at the same time I am asking her if she had
turned
> off my charger I am opening the garage door. Uh Oh, something is smoking!
> I shut down the charger and started to investigate. Turns out that one of
> my SAFT modules was boiling away like crazy and steam was coming out of
the
> vents. It was a lot of steam! I removed the battery out of the pack and
> let it sit outside to cool off. It was fairly warm to the touch on the
> case, but not hot. The terminals were not hot either. I can only still
> wonder at this point what the root cause failure was, and what damage I
did
> to the rest of my pack. I'm not even sure that this battery was the one
> that caused the problem, so there will be plenty to investigate later when
I
> get a chance.
>
> That report on the SAFT failures that was posted a couple of weeks ago
sure
> looks like it applies to these batteries. I looked on the cases after I
> read that report, but could not find any kind of manufacturing date code.
I
> have lots more of these modules than what I need on the bike at one time,
> and I keep hoping that I can find 8 that will continue to work well, but I
> am starting to wonder. I may not have a NiCad powered EV much longer at
> this rate. That will be a shame, because I sure love the range.
>
> damon
>
> _________________________________________________________________
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The person looking for a foldable Electric Scooter, ended up
ended up getting a 250 watt (24v) "Bladez" scooter on ebay.
So far his limited testing, it seems to work. However, the
drive electronics don't like you to 'floor it' and keep it
there. If you do, it disengages itself. But it is quite
happy if you start out slow and then speed up with time.
Any have any experince with the Bladez Electric Scooter?
=====
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~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Reverend Gadget wrote:
The type of bldc I had in mind was the permanent
magnet on the rotor type, with commutation achieved
electronically on the field magnets.
I think you meant stator windings, not "field magnets".
But yes, this is one kind of brushless DC motor. Another name for this
type of bldc is a "PM AC synchronous motor".
Strictly speaking this one does require at least 3 phase on the stator
to run, it will not run if all you have is a battery (i.e. pure DC
source). That is, unless inverter is considered as an "external part
of the motor".
I have example of such a motor - AUDI ACW-80-4:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/acw-80-4.jpg
it has 3 phase leads coming out and cogs if you rotate
the shaft by hand.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
My family is seeing that I'm not as crazy as they think. My mother has
asked me to restore a C-car for her to drive in her retirement community.
After all I bought her a house there I should provide her transportation too
;D Tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Lawton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:16 AM
Subject: Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
> At 11:52 26/02/2004, you wrote:
> >I am just hoping for $4-5 a gallon to thin out the SUVs... and to
> >jump-start the EV industry.
> >
> >Seth
> >
> >
> >On Feb 26, 2004, at 1:21 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
> >
> >>USA Today Article:
> >>
> >>http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-25-gasprices_x.htm
> >>
> >>Imagine how fun it would be to drive by the gas station in your EV :)
>
> Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is $5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8
> USD to the UKP).
>
> John
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
