EV Digest 3376
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) OT:Virus (public service announcement)
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: EVLN(EDTA EV/hybrid/fcv Conf&Expo 9/21-23/04 Orlando, FL $$$) Going?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Two Gen2 Magnechargers desperately needed!
by Jeff Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Pie in the sky
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Two Gen2 Magnechargers desperately needed!
by Alex Karahalios <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Pie in the sky
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Regulators and stray batteries
by "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Newbie EV'er - Fry's His E-meter!
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Batteries die for *NO* reason. Why?
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Newbie EV'er - Fry's His E-meter!
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Pie in the Sky
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: Pie in the Sky
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Screaming Brushes
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) BLDC/ AC induction drive development
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by John Lawton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) paging james jarrett
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Massive cycle life improvement for Liion?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) RE: paging james jarrett
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Batteries die for *NO* reason. Why?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: paging james jarrett
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: OT:Virus (public service announcement)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Someone on this list (almost certainly NOT Lee) has the MyDoom.F virus. If
you think there's even the tiniest possibility it could be you, *please* do
a virus scan - this is a _very_ destructive variant of MyDoom and could
easily eat valuable data.
If you are not particularly computer savvy, I reccomend using Trend Micro's
HouseCall web-based virus checker (on Windows PCs) :
http://housecall.trendmicro.com/housecall/start_corp.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The type of bldc I had in mind was the permanent
> magnet on the rotor type, with commutation achieved
> electronically on the field magnets.
An additional choice would be whether to do simple switching, like a
commutator does, thus making it a "square-wave AC" motor, or to
synthesize a sinusoid via an inverter.
You'd always have to have a tachometer wouldn't you, to keep the
frequency in sync with the speed? And would you also need a precise
measurement of the angle at any given moment (e.g. a gray code encoder
instead of a tach), or would you just synthesize the correct frequency
with arbitrary phase, not making any big jumps in phase as you go from
one frequency to another, and hope that the motor catches up smoothly?
Has anybody used Don Lancaster's "magic sine wave" ideas in a motor
controller? http://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.asp (It's supposed to be a
more efficient alternative to PWM... fewer switching steps to
synthesize the same sine wave)
Anyway maybe the term BLDC implies that it's not an induction motor -
it has a PM or a wound rotor. Or, maybe it implies that it uses
square-wave switching rather than an inverter. Just guessing...
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "bobrice" >
Transportation Association Conference & Exposition 2004:
> Mobilizing
> the Market, which will be held from September 21-23, 2004 in
> Orlando, Florida. The conference will provide a comprehensive
> and
> hands-on forum for information exchange, business venture
> development, and market forecasting and sales - and will feature
>
> electric drive industry experts, policy leaders and academia
> from
> around the globe. Other key elements include an exposition
> showcasing new and emerging battery, hybrid and fuel cell
> products,
> and a vehicle "Ride'n'Drive" of electric drive cars, bikes,
> scooters and off-road vehicles.
>
>
> Bla! Bla! Bla! ........ in Steve Clunn an' Jerry Dycus country?
>
> Sounds like fun! Anybody thinking of going? I know it's a bit early, to
> ask, but do you think it would be worth it for BEV guyz to show up? Like
the
> EVS things we have gone to before, when they are on OUR continent.
>
Sounds a lot like something that went on a few years ago that Jon my EV
friend ( who lives near what it was at ) went to. They wanted $125 to get in
. He went and hung out in the parking lot with the EV Mazda's hood open and
talked to people coming and going . Later he found a way in and looked
around , but didn't see any real BEV's , just hybrid and fuel cell stuff. He
said that a lot of the people in the parking lot were very interested in his
plane Jane conversion as they had no idea something like that was possible.
If you want to really see some EV's then the Fort Pierce 5th EV rally is
where you want to be. That's in April 24 04 , :-)
Steve Clunn
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Folks,
I am in need of two Gen2 magnechargers for a pair of
GM S10E trucks. They came to us without chargers, and
the public chargers we planned to use had been removed
receontly.
We would prefer the WM7200 if any are available.
I read the posts about the MC's that one fellow was
planning on converting into a conductive version ...
:(
Regards, Jeff
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard - Read only the mail you want.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just pointing out that there are alternatives to forktruck gear...
It might be interesting to see how the area under the curves looked for
dragstrip runs on series wound machines pulling 2000A at like 160V
under load versus 600A at 280V under load, and see how much advantage a
series motor has, or if it has much due to efficiency losses.
Seth
On Feb 25, 2004, at 12:37 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
Seth wrote:
A- AC induction definitely does regen
B- Generally you can spin AC induction faster because you can weaken
the field. Which is very difficult to do in a BLDC. The rotor is also
a
rugged cast in place piece of aluminum and steel unless you have a
built up copper rotor. But at 93% motor efficiency with aluminum, do
you want a copper rotor?
C- Oat is right about the viscous damping losses, they are an issue
at
high shaft speed.
D- Per amp, AC motors can make as much torque as DC. Madman has one
has
one that will make ~180 ft-lbs on 400A. And that's 400A peak, not RMS.
Factory redline is 8000RPM. He just needs to get a weeny little 400A
inverter on it. Or a 600A, or an 800A...
E- if you tow it and you leave it in too low a gear, all you have to
worry about is exploding the rotor. Not the weak commutator, or
destroying the controller when a BLDC starts to regen uncontrollably
thru the controller when the back EMF in the motor exceeds that of the
battery. And induction machines for vehicles generally have high
redlines. 12-13,000 rpm for little motors, 8000 for some of the
larger.
F-If you can make 300V and a couple hunderd amps out of your battery
for 30 second pulses (without sagging to 180V!), then you should worry
about whether or not you have a powerful enough AC system
G-Excessive currents and heat can demagnetize the magnets used in
BLDC.
Not common but it is a failure mode. AC motors can burn the insulation
out eventually, just like any motor. But it is probably a bit more
tolerant to abuse.
H-generally, BLDC is a little lighter than AC induction.
2 cents worth
Seth
On Feb 25, 2004, at 4:41 AM, Otmar wrote:
At 1:12 AM -0800 2-25-04, Reverend Gadget wrote:
but what about brushless DC? seems like it could give
you the torque of the dc motor with the speed of the
AC plus regen capabilities.
The major drawback with BLDC, as I see it, is that the field is fixed
and therefore you always have fixed eddy current losses and not
nearly
as high torque as a series motor.
If the system is low power the losses are not such a big deal, but a
100 peak HP system with a single ratio transmission coasting at
freeway speeds would lose about 1500 watts just to eddy current
losses.
The reason I like AC induction is that the field can be changed to
meet the need. It's true that you need to provide the energy for the
field, and that is a loss, but at the high peak and low cruise power
that is typical of a EV, I think it makes sense.
I haven't run the numbers. I'm making my judgement from feeling and a
few data points. What do others think?
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
Yea I was floored by the Amps to Ftlbs that my AC induction motor is
rated at. If Ot's numbers from the G-tests are right... And I think
they
are close, then the AC motor can make 3 times the shaft torque per amp
that a 8 incher and 2000 amps can make. AND the motor can do 8000 rpm
at
full load. Or... a 275 amp per phase into a AC motor makes as much
torque as 2000 amps into a AvDC 8 incher.
Lets keep in mind that you could probably drop a 8 inch case through
the stator of the 78 Kw AC motor. The AC 55 is simply a BIGGER machine.
Yea I vote for a AC drive that is programmable like Ot's Hair ball. Has
all the data points prgrammable so we can swap motors to our heart's
content. Also there are a few items that could make a genaric AC drive
stage even more sweet, Like slecting AC induction, BLDC or 3 channels
of
DC current, All from the same device.
I think the Seiman's motors are the best for size and wieght, and RPM.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
You may want to repost this request on the EV1 mailing list. There are
several people there that have made chargers available in the past. I
have purchased two chargers that way. See
http://www.evadc.org/discussion_lists.html
Alex Karahalios
On Feb 25, 2004, at 6:36 PM, Jeff Thomas wrote:
I am in need of two Gen2 magnechargers for a pair of
GM S10E trucks. They came to us without chargers, and
the public chargers we planned to use had been removed
receontly.
We would prefer the WM7200 if any are available.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>If you could pick a motor for an EV what would it
>be(brushed DC, AC, BLDC)and what would you want from a
>controller for it. Thanks
I'd want an EV-optimized controller for one of these:
http://powertecmotors.com/e320.pdf
David Thompson, and the motor-controller package would run about $2500...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Honda
and Toyota hybrids use BLDC (this is slang for
synchronous AC). UQM also uses BLDC for their
government projects (hybrid hummers) and BMW EV's and
hybrids. Highest efficiency can be obtained with a
BLDC motor. UQM has designed some interesting motors
that have field weakening (extra windings or magnets,
I'm not familier with their setup).
I think the best BLDC is one that has an ironless
stator. We have created these motors at work and
there are some on the market. You wind the stator on
a 'core' and encapsulate it with some form of epoxy to
hold the windins in place. If you can hold the
tolerances close (small air gap between stator and
rotor) these motors can be very efficient.
I would like to create a high power ironless stator
BLDC motor for EV racing. Coupled with the proper
high power inverter this will give the brush motors
real competition. The only drawback is time.
I still have high power go-cart controls for the kids
and other obligations for high power marketable
scooters and bikes. I think we need a 36 hour day....
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
>> The type of bldc I had in mind was the permanent
>> magnet on the rotor type, with commutation achieved
>> electronically on the field magnets.
I think you meant stator windings, not "field magnets".
But yes, this is one kind of brushless DC motor. Another name for this
type of bldc is a "PM AC synchronous motor".
Shawn Rutledge wrote:
> An additional choice would be whether to do simple switching, like
> a commutator does, thus making it a "square-wave AC" motor, or to
> synthesize a sinusoid via an inverter.
A commutator does not generate a square wave. It is trickier than it
looks!
The windings of a DC motor are all connected in series, in a ring. At
any given instant, the current from a brush splits, half going thru the
left half of the ring, and the other half going thru the other half of
the ring. These two currents join on the opposite brush, and exits.
Since half the coils are on the opposite side and have an opposite
current, their magnetic fields add.
Now look at the voltage and current on any one coil as it rotates. The
current is a square wave. The voltage, however, is a good approximation
of a sine wave, produced as this coil rotates in the magnetic field
produced by the field.
> You'd always have to have a tachometer wouldn't you, to keep the
> frequency in sync with the speed?
You can either use a shaft encoder, or sense the voltage induced in the
windings by the field (the 'back emf').
> Has anybody used Don Lancaster's "magic sine wave" ideas in a motor
> controller? http://www.tinaja.com/magsn01.asp (It's supposed to be a
> more efficient alternative to PWM... fewer switching steps to
> synthesize the same sine wave)
It's very likely, since he didn't really invent the idea. It was used in
SCR inverters for many years before he published.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I started sketching out a simple battery monitoring system that would check
if any battery was significantly lower than all the other batteries and
light-up a lamp on the dash if one was. Since I'm planning on using Rudman
Regs with a PFC-20, I'm wondering if it's worth the effort to design this
sort of monitoring system. **When regulators are used, what is the
likelyhood of a stray battery?** Is there a good enough chance of wrecking
a battery to make it worth building the BMS?
I'm trying to plan ahead as much as possible to avoid batricide on my first
set of Orbitals :)
-Ryan
__________________________________
www.evsource.com - 100% Electric!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Back when it was the eMeter from Cruising Equipment, they repaired 2
meters for me (hangs head in shame for repeating the mistake). Cost was
reasonable, like $50/meter.
I think DIY repairs inside the meter are unlikely... tight quarters,
surface mount components. You'd have to really know what was what and
have the appropriate tools. (see
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/e_meter_top.jpg and
http://www.coate.org/jim/ev/archives/e_meter_bottom.jpg )
Perhaps someone else will have the desired quick (external) fix...
dan shoop wrote:
I'm considering sending it back to Xantrex for repair but after reading
the statements in the manual like,"Your E-meter purchase includes one 15
minute
phone call. Subsequent calls will be billed $1.00/min.. Have your Visa
number ready." kind of made me think I should try you guys first.
Any ideas for a quick fix? Just send it back to Xantrex? Anybody else
work on these things?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Ok, this is really starting to make me wonder...
I've been noticing in my shed over the winter that the batteries on the
solar shed are dying in very odd ways. One of them, a Dynasty 120 series
100ah AGM battery went from being nice and happy to 10 volts in a matter
of weeks (I check voltages by hand monthly). After trying to charge it
with the sears $80 AGM ready top of the line charger it's now to the
point where if you put a 30 amp load on it voltage falls to 4 volts...
This battery was in series with another 12 volt Dynasty battery wich
were in parallel with another pair (24 volt, 200ah total). The other
battery, same make and model is perfect. The solar charger keeps the
batteries topped off at 29 volts peak (it's cold) and the load on them
is 5 amps tops for 30 minutes a day if at that.
When I took the battery out and turned it over I could hear it
*rattling* inside. As if there were marbles in it. *WHAT*? It has never
moved from where it was; I certainly didn't drop it or anything...
This has happened to another AGM battery in the shed on a different
charge circuit. Exactly the same symptoms, always at a nice gentle float
voltage, no deep discharge, no discharge at all really. Same symptoms;
battery goes from great to garbage in no time.
Now I notice that one of my spare Hawkers which I have had on float
charge every once in awhile while out in the shed is reading 12.5 volts.
Put a 30 amp load on it voltage drops to 10. So I bring it inside, let
it warm for a day, and now it reads 12.0 volts idle and down to *8*
under load. A control battery is fine. Put it on the charger, voltage
goes right up to 14 volts.
What the heck is happening? It's not deep discharge, this was doing
nothing. It's not self-discharge: I have old Hawkers out there that I
buried in the *SNOW* that are in better condition. And as for this
Dynasty series it has been totally babied with the proper float charges
and everything.
And of course there are the 50 Hawkers in my Prizm. I have never run
that thing near discharge, always do an equalize, etc. It's down to 15
ah capacity on a 52ah pack. This had better be due to the cold, because
if the performance is shot I am at a loss to explain *WHY*. Maybe it's
"positive grid plate corrosion". Maybe batteries simply stink...
Any info appreciated. Do batteries just die for no reason?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I thought I fried my e-meter, I wrote a message to that effect on
Xantrex's web site and within a couple days got a friendly phone call from
their Technical Service Analyst Randy Johnson. Until I told him my meter
wasn't actually fried, he had said I should send it in for repair, which
they can indeed do. As I mentioned earlier, they can also upgrade an
e-meter to include the RS-232 interface for about $70.
Here's contact info for Technical Service at Xantrex:
Randy Johnson
Technical Service Analyst
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
5916 195th NE
Arlington, Washington 98223
General Tel: 360/435.8826
General Fax: 360/925.5144
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Reverend Gadget wrote:
> >> The type of bldc I had in mind was the permanent
> >> magnet on the rotor type, with commutation
> achieved
> >> electronically on the field magnets.
>
> I think you meant stator windings, not "field
> magnets".
Thank you, that is what I meant.
> But yes, this is one kind of brushless DC motor.
> Another name for this
> type of bldc is a "PM AC synchronous motor".
I guess the question is between the "AC induction
motor" and a "PM AC synchronous motor". what do you
all think?
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
USA Today Article:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-25-gasprices_x.htm
Imagine how fun it would be to drive by the gas station in your EV :)
-Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
<<I'd want an EV-optimized controller for one of these:
http://powertecmotors.com/e320.pdf>>
Ummm...maybe I missed something, but did you see the weight of these motors?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> <<I'd want an EV-optimized controller for one of
> these:
> http://powertecmotors.com/e320.pdf>>
>
> Ummm...maybe I missed something, but did you see the
> weight of these motors?
>
and the torque to match!
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich and I took some photos of a virgin brush last night.
They are at http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Feb24-01.jpg and
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Feb24-02jpg.
The Photo indicates that less than 50% of the brush is in contact with the
commutator as delivered from Advanced DC. Yes, they make quite the buzz as
the fresh comm bars pass under the unseated brushes. If you wind the motor
up high enough, the buzz becomes a scream.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:55 AM
Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:21 PM
> Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes
>
>
> > I'm puzzled about screaming brushes. If it
> > were my motor, I'd find and fix the cause of the
> > screaming rather than run it and hope the screaming goes away.
> > Hi All;
>
> Screaming brushes is a rather natural thing til they seat. Locomotives,
> MU cars and trolleys do same, at first, and you can hear them over all the
> other train noises, when they come out of the shop. I remember changing
> brushes on a RR car and hearing them as we ran it out of the shop. I was
> very concerned, but one of the Olde Timers sed that it is normal, you'll
get
> used to it!
>
> But with a car, ya can seat them with a comm stone, a sandstone, I
think
> , soft but gritty stick to run on the comm, til the brushes grind in to
the
> Comm's radius, then make damn sure ya blow the used grit and carbon out!!
> before going to the races! Or just motoring about town. My brushes are
doing
> fine in 4 years and over 60k on the miles.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, the dot in the second link came up missing. The actual link is
http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Feb24-02.jpg.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes
> Rich and I took some photos of a virgin brush last night.
>
> They are at http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Feb24-01.jpg and
> http://www.manzanitamicro.com/Feb24-02jpg.
>
> The Photo indicates that less than 50% of the brush is in contact with the
> commutator as delivered from Advanced DC. Yes, they make quite the buzz as
> the fresh comm bars pass under the unseated brushes. If you wind the motor
> up high enough, the buzz becomes a scream.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 8:55 AM
> Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes
>
>
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 24, 2004 6:21 PM
> > Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes
> >
> >
> > > I'm puzzled about screaming brushes. If it
> > > were my motor, I'd find and fix the cause of the
> > > screaming rather than run it and hope the screaming goes away.
> > > Hi All;
> >
> > Screaming brushes is a rather natural thing til they seat.
Locomotives,
> > MU cars and trolleys do same, at first, and you can hear them over all
the
> > other train noises, when they come out of the shop. I remember changing
> > brushes on a RR car and hearing them as we ran it out of the shop. I was
> > very concerned, but one of the Olde Timers sed that it is normal, you'll
> get
> > used to it!
> >
> > But with a car, ya can seat them with a comm stone, a sandstone, I
> think
> > , soft but gritty stick to run on the comm, til the brushes grind in to
> the
> > Comm's radius, then make damn sure ya blow the used grit and carbon
out!!
> > before going to the races! Or just motoring about town. My brushes are
> doing
> > fine in 4 years and over 60k on the miles.
> >
> > Seeya
> >
> > Bob
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Joe and Rich,
Just a dumb noobie question I know but what if you used one of those spindle
sanding drums in a drill press to pre arc your brushes? Not completely, just
sand far enough in to leave a little on the sides so you know that the brush
is fully seated when it hits the edge. They come in many different sizes and
i am sure there is one close to the diameter of your commutator. Seems like
it would help break in the brushes quicker and save wear and tear on the
comm. David Chapman.
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--- Begin Message ---
I am just hoping for $4-5 a gallon to thin out the SUVs... and to
jump-start the EV industry.
Seth
On Feb 26, 2004, at 1:21 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
USA Today Article:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-25-gasprices_x.htm
Imagine how fun it would be to drive by the gas station in your EV :)
-Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
A generous list member (Rod) has posted some of his work in a Yahoo
group and it is a complete 3 phase drive system design, minus the
software. Right now, it is set up for 2 pair of FETs per leg. He can
correct me if I am wrong, but I am pretty sure it could do AC induction
also. Call it bike/kart power level, but voltage levels up to just
below 200V. Might make a learning project for list members, drives for
brushless aircon compressors, and light EVs.
So a few memebers have been talking off-line and in the spirit of
feature creep, want to tweak a thing or 2, like FET packages. We will
probably get boards made for SOT-227B (ISOTOP) power transistors. ( A
bit more power) Is anyone else interested? I know some people want to
develop AC drives long term and this has that nice TI '2402 DSP on it.
Right now I just want to see if anyone else wants in on a board buy to
bring the per-piece price down. You are on your own for soldering and
software, although I belive some sort of starter code is available from
TI?
So, is anyone interested?
Seth Allen
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--- Begin Message ---
At 11:52 26/02/2004, you wrote:
I am just hoping for $4-5 a gallon to thin out the SUVs... and to
jump-start the EV industry.
Seth
On Feb 26, 2004, at 1:21 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
USA Today Article:
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2004-02-25-gasprices_x.htm
Imagine how fun it would be to drive by the gas station in your EV :)
Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is $5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8
USD to the UKP).
John
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--- Begin Message ---
I have a MiniDV tape of NEDRA vegas '04 for you but I lost your
address. You were the one who was going to copy this to DVD, no? If so,
drop me a shipping address.
Thanks,
Seth
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't think this post ever made it to the list, so I am resending.
Here are some links to more data on this work and a couple of news
articles on this team:
http://www.cmt.anl.gov/science-technology/batteries/default.shtml
http://www.cmt.anl.gov/awards/SciAm50.shtml
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000E18BE-3623-1FAC-
B62383414B7F0000
http://www.suntimes.com/output/zinescene/cst-fin-ecol21.html
http://www.anl.gov/OPA/news03/news031110.htm
The development of this high-power lithium battery is one of the
innovations that led to Khalil Amine's designation as a 2003
Scientific American 50 research leader in automotive technology. The
cell chemistry is safer and costs less than previous cell
chemistries. Amine's team also developed the cell chemistry for a
remarkable battery suitable for use in implantable medical devices.
Khalil Amine of the U.S. Department of Energy's Argonne National
Laboratory has been named by Scientific American magazine as one of
top 50 research leaders of 2003. The Scientific American 50 are
recognized for their outstanding leadership and capability in helping
to make technology a constructive force for people and societies
around the world.
Under Argonne's Electrochemical Technology Program, Amine leads a
team of scientists and engineers in the development of advanced
lithium battery materials and cell chemistries for emerging
applications. One important application is hybrid electric vehicles.
Amine's team has developed a high-power lithium manganese spinel
based cell chemistry that costs less than previous cell chemistries
proposed for this use, and is safer.
The team's work on other high-energy chemistries, a lithium-iron
phosphate and a lithium manganese nickel system, led to a long-life,
safer battery suitable for use in implantable medical devices,
satellite and military applications. Other groundbreaking
developments include a ceramic titanate anode material, siloxane-
based polymers, and electrolyte additives that reduce gas formation
and enhance safety and performance. Eleven patents are pending on
this work.
Scientific American editor-in-chief John Rennie said that the
magazine "is in the business of encouraging the progressive use of
technology to make a better future for people around the world. Every
year we watch how certain individuals and organizations play pivotal
roles in directing that future�s emergence. The Scientific American
50 is our chance to shine a light on these incredibly deserving
leaders in research, industry and policy."
Selected by the magazine�s Board of Editors with the help of
distinguished outside advisors, the Scientific American 50 cites
research, business and policy leaders in many technological
categories, including agriculture, chemicals and materials,
communications, computing, energy, environment, medical treatments
and more.
According to Jim Miller, director of Argonne's Electrochemical
Technology Program, scientists such as Amine have made Argonne a
leader in advanced battery development. "Khalil Amine is known
internationally for his innovations in battery chemistry," said
Miller. "He and his team are a tremendous asset to the program, and
one of the reasons Argonne is known everywhere as the �go to� place
for leading-edge battery R&D."
Harvey Drucker, Associate Laboratory Director for Energy and
Environmental Science and Technology, agrees. "We've set out to
recruit the best for our Electrochemical Technology Program and
Khalil Amine is a prime example."
Amine is head of the Technology Development group in the Battery
Technology Department within Argonne's Chemical Engineering Division.
He received his Ph.D. in Materials Science from the University of
Bordeaux, France, in 1989 and has studied various aspects of new
materials for next-generation batteries throughout his career. Before
joining Argonne in 1998, Amine led research projects in the research
arms of public and private organizations and universities, including
the Japan Storage Battery Company, the Osaka National Research
Institute, and Kyoto University. His work has resulted in 48 patents
and more than 200 publications.
Advances in these areas and others are continuing under Amine's
leadership. Argonne conducts many of its research projects in
collaboration with other organizations, including universities,
industrial firms, and other federal laboratories, and has
intellectual property available for licensing.
Amine�s group performs research and development for hybrid electric
vehicle applications under the U.S. Department of Energy�s FreedomCAR
and Vehicle Technologies Program.
For More Information
* Researcher's wheels turning on battery for hybrid cars (Chicago
Sun-Times)
* Argonne Researcher Named to Scientific American "Top 50" List
(Argonne National Laboratory news release)
* More on Electrochemical Technology Program Battery R&D
* Battery development for medical applications
Contact the Chemical Technology Division Business Development and
Communications Office (630-252-1858, [EMAIL PROTECTED]).
--------------------------------------
-Ken Trough
http://visforvoltage.com
24 hour AIM - ktrough
24 hour voicemail - 866-872-8901
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--- Begin Message ---
Page received
Address is
4109 Scarlet St.
Matthews, Nc 28104
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
When you want to test the depths of a stream, don't use both feet. - Chinese
Proverb
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Seth
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:56 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: paging james jarrett
>
>
> I have a MiniDV tape of NEDRA vegas '04 for you but I lost your
> address. You were the one who was going to copy this to DVD,
> no? If so,
> drop me a shipping address.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth
>
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--- Begin Message ---
What happened to your dynasty and hawker sounds like the same thing that
happened to my aux. battery. It is a "sealed" gel-cell wheelchair battery,
designed for deep cycles.
It started exhibiting the same symptoms...First, it just sagged like a rock
under load, and came up instantly on charge, but then the resting voltage
started to go down as well.
It had run low on water. I popped off the cover (just a plastic snap-on
piece) and opened the little vent caps to see dried out, cracked gel. In
most of the cells.
I added distilled water to all of them, giving them time to soak in, and
then charged and discharged it a couple of times. Now it works fine again.
I leave the cover off, and check it regularly like any flooded battery.
Since the Dynasty rattled, I think it's too late for it. But the hawker
would probably respond to treatment if you could get to the insides without
destroying the battery.
I think what happens is the battery gets a little overcharged, and loses a
bit of water. Now it has a slightly higher internal resistance, and heats
up on charge a bit more, and requires a higher voltage to push charge
current through it. The next charge, it loses more water, and it dominos
from there.
Since AGM's have VERY LITTLE water, it doesn't take long before they fail,
if continually subjected to the same situation. But they seem good to the
outside observer right up until the bitter end. So to the outside observer,
they seem to fail "all at once."
Since your Dynasty was on float, the damage has probably occurred over a
long time, and it just now showed symptoms. It probably needed a little
less voltage on float (due to manufacturing differences) that the others it
was teamed with. So a little damage occurred continuously while it was on
float charge. Since it was paralleled with another 24V string, that string
did most of the work, and kept the system going, since the battery in
question would sag under load.
I agree with you - batteries aren't too great, but they are all we've got.
Lee had a great piece on battery care that was based on if it was a family
pet. It summarizes all the different ways we can be cruel to them without
even realizing it.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:58 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Batteries die for *NO* reason. Why?
>
> Ok, this is really starting to make me wonder...
>
> I've been noticing in my shed over the winter that the
> batteries on the solar shed are dying in very odd ways. One
> of them, a Dynasty 120 series 100ah AGM battery went from
> being nice and happy to 10 volts in a matter of weeks (I
> check voltages by hand monthly). After trying to charge it
> with the sears $80 AGM ready top of the line charger it's now
> to the point where if you put a 30 amp load on it voltage
> falls to 4 volts...
>
> This battery was in series with another 12 volt Dynasty
> battery wich were in parallel with another pair (24 volt,
> 200ah total). The other battery, same make and model is
> perfect. The solar charger keeps the batteries topped off at
> 29 volts peak (it's cold) and the load on them is 5 amps tops
> for 30 minutes a day if at that.
>
> When I took the battery out and turned it over I could hear it
> *rattling* inside. As if there were marbles in it. *WHAT*? It
> has never moved from where it was; I certainly didn't drop it
> or anything...
>
> This has happened to another AGM battery in the shed on a
> different charge circuit. Exactly the same symptoms, always
> at a nice gentle float voltage, no deep discharge, no
> discharge at all really. Same symptoms; battery goes from
> great to garbage in no time.
>
> Now I notice that one of my spare Hawkers which I have had on
> float charge every once in awhile while out in the shed is
> reading 12.5 volts.
> Put a 30 amp load on it voltage drops to 10. So I bring it
> inside, let it warm for a day, and now it reads 12.0 volts
> idle and down to *8* under load. A control battery is fine.
> Put it on the charger, voltage goes right up to 14 volts.
>
> What the heck is happening? It's not deep discharge, this was
> doing nothing. It's not self-discharge: I have old Hawkers
> out there that I buried in the *SNOW* that are in better
> condition. And as for this Dynasty series it has been totally
> babied with the proper float charges and everything.
>
> And of course there are the 50 Hawkers in my Prizm. I have
> never run that thing near discharge, always do an equalize,
> etc. It's down to 15 ah capacity on a 52ah pack. This had
> better be due to the cold, because if the performance is shot
> I am at a loss to explain *WHY*. Maybe it's "positive grid
> plate corrosion". Maybe batteries simply stink...
>
> Any info appreciated. Do batteries just die for no reason?
>
> Chris
>
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From: "Seth" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I'm glad to see somebody else sending (or thinking of sending) James so EV
tape , He sounds like he as the stuff to turn out a fine EVDVD's but if he
doesn't get any ev footage this is going to be hard. I am wondering where he
would stand if he coped the discovery channel show and used footage for it ?
James , did you get my tape yet ? I hope you don't lose interest ,
Steve Clunn
> I have a MiniDV tape of NEDRA vegas '04 for you but I lost your
> address. You were the one who was going to copy this to DVD, no? If so,
> drop me a shipping address.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Seth
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> Someone on this list (almost certainly NOT Lee) has the MyDoom.F virus.
No, it wasn't from me -- I checked. Plus, I run Windows 3.1 and Netscape
3.0; no virus yet has gotten into them.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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I remember something about brush brake in, in one of my old motor repair
manuals that go way back. So far way back that when they were using four
point starting boxes, the one's with the sliding handle.
They wrap #0 or #00 sandpaper around the commutator and spin the rotor.
When I look this up in this manual, I seen a statement that said, DO NOT
ANGLE THE BRUSHES ON COMMUTATOR.
Well, my brushes are set at 15 degree angle by GE and there been going over
10 years now. They look like hard tool steel. When I bought a set of
brushes for a spare set back in the 80's, they cost $250.00 back then from
GE.
What are the $25.00 brushes at EVPARTS.COM?
Therefore sometimes the new tech in some cases is better than the old tech
stuff.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:39 AM
Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
> Joe and Rich,
> Just a dumb noobie question I know but what if you used one of those
> spindle
> sanding drums in a drill press to pre arc your brushes? Not completely,
> just
> sand far enough in to leave a little on the sides so you know that the
> brush
> is fully seated when it hits the edge. They come in many different sizes
> and
> i am sure there is one close to the diameter of your commutator. Seems
> like
> it would help break in the brushes quicker and save wear and tear on the
> comm. David Chapman.
>
>
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