EV Digest 3378
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Playing with a Basic Stamp
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Screaming Brushes (correction)
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Pie in the Sky
by James D Thompson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Playing with a Basic Stamp
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) The Hawker keeps getting dead-er. Need a real charger
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Boiling out the electrolyte
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: The Hawker keeps getting dead-er. Need a real charger
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Playing with a Basic Stamp
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: The Hawker keeps getting dead-er. Need a real charger
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: The Hawker keeps getting dead-er. Need a real charger
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Playing with a Basic Stamp
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) new question was AC induction vs BLDC
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) The EMW goes for a test ride
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) The EMW goes for a test ride
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Voltage to motor
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: new question was AC induction vs BLDC
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Voltage to motor
by "Diana Trevino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) test ignore
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: AC induction vs BLDC
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by "Schacherl Jens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: new question was AC induction vs BLDC
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello David,
Thanks for the source, I will look them up. My brushes are 4 pairs or 8
single brushes of 5/8 inch thick by 2 inches wide by 2 inches long.
They came precurved at a 15 degree angle which match my existing set. These
brushes look like there is silver material in it.
When I order these brushes from a local GE motor shop, they had to order
them from another source, of which they back order to there warehouse which
had to go to GE for them.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:53 AM
Subject: RE: Screaming Brushes (correction)
> Roland Wrote:
> > > When I bought a set of brushes for a spare set back in the
> > 80's, they
> > > cost $250.00 back then from GE. They look like hard tool steel.
>
> In response, Lee wrote:
> > That sounds like robbery, unless they were very special brushes. There
> > *are* brushes loaded with copper or even silver, for example.
>
> When I had the brushes in the 9" GE in my escort replaced, Warfield was
> the
> least expensive source. They were also around $200. I believe GE used a
> semi-special compound with excellent wear and conduction properties. I
> didn't have a feel for whether that was cheap or expensive at the time,
> but
> I knew that Warfield does good work and has quality components, and they
> were also the most reasonable cost. So I went with them with no
> hesitation.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since I've got it in my head to make a battery balancer (from Lee's
design), I've been playing with micro controllers. I didn't know of
VESTA boards, so rather than the Basic Stamp, I latched onto the Basic-X
(http://www.basicx.com/). Faster than the BS2 and supposed to have more
programming features... (based on VB?). For now I'm using it to play
with data from an e-meter but not controlling anything.
For your variac, perhaps a mechanical timer would be a good investment,
so during debugging it can't run wild for more than a few hours.
Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen wrote:
Microcontrollers are great fun for kids - I played with a VIC-20 (in essence
a microcontroller with a screen) quite a lot in my younger years, using it
to control robots and whatnot.
But, I would advise for the kids either a microcontroller with a real basic
like the VESTA boards, or going for assembly. The basic stamp's 'halfway'
basic seems like it would cause as much frustration as assembly without
having the same power and flexibility.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That sounds like a very similar brush to what came out of my motor. I have
heard that GE brushes are rather unique in their composition.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:24 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Screaming Brushes (correction)
>
> Hello David,
>
> Thanks for the source, I will look them up. My brushes are 4
> pairs or 8 single brushes of 5/8 inch thick by 2 inches wide
> by 2 inches long.
>
> They came precurved at a 15 degree angle which match my
> existing set. These brushes look like there is silver material in it.
>
> When I order these brushes from a local GE motor shop, they
> had to order them from another source, of which they back
> order to there warehouse which had to go to GE for them.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Brandt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:53 AM
> Subject: RE: Screaming Brushes (correction)
>
>
> > Roland Wrote:
> > > > When I bought a set of brushes for a spare set back in the
> > > 80's, they
> > > > cost $250.00 back then from GE. They look like hard tool steel.
> >
> > In response, Lee wrote:
> > > That sounds like robbery, unless they were very special
> brushes. There
> > > *are* brushes loaded with copper or even silver, for example.
> >
> > When I had the brushes in the 9" GE in my escort replaced,
> Warfield was
> > the
> > least expensive source. They were also around $200. I
> believe GE used a
> > semi-special compound with excellent wear and conduction
> properties. I
> > didn't have a feel for whether that was cheap or expensive
> at the time,
> > but
> > I knew that Warfield does good work and has quality
> components, and they
> > were also the most reasonable cost. So I went with them with no
> > hesitation.
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> This sort of event would be a lot less likely with a smart charger.
> IMO, it's false economy to use a dumb charger with any battery, and
> the smarter (more expensive) the battery is, the smarter the charger
> has to be.
At the very least, add a $20 timer to turn the darn thing off
automatically in case you forget!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
><<I'd want an EV-optimized controller for one of these:
>http://powertecmotors.com/e320.pdf>>
>
>Ummm...maybe I missed something, but did you see the weight of these
>motors?
The 320s are also about 5-6 feet long, so they're not going to fit in
a Honda Civic. You could use the big one to build the World's Quickest
F-700 Dump Truck.
http://furrow-auction.com/McNutt_091303/IMG_1130.JPG
The 180s are a better match for the typical EV.
http://powertecmotors.com/e180.pdf
David Thompson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> Another name for this type of bldc is a "PM AC synchronous motor".
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Strictly speaking this one does require at least 3 phase on the stator
> to run, it will not run if all you have is a battery (i.e. pure DC
> source). That is, unless inverter is considered as an "external part
> of the motor".
Marketeers usually say "brushless DC" when they want to imply that the
motor (and its controller) are intended to run from a DC source. The
very same motor can be sold as "synchronous AC" if they want to imply
that is is intended to run from an AC source. It can be the very same
motor; only the controller is different.
Such motors don't have to be 3-phase; there are 2-phase and even
single-phase examples.
One example is the Superior Electric "Slo-Syn" motors. It is a permanent
magnet rotor, and two stator windings (they are 2-phase motors). If they
sell it with low-voltage windings, they call it a brushless DC or
stepper motor. They expect you to connect the two windings to a pair of
H-bridges, and alternately switch current to them to run it as a 2-phase
(4 step) motor.
If the wind the very same motor with high voltage windings suitable for
120vac, they call it a synchronous AC motor. They expect you to drive
one winding directly from 120vac 60hz, and the other from 120vac 60hz
thru a series capacitor (which provides the phase shift).
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
> Since I've got it in my head to make a battery balancer (from Lee's
> design), I've been playing with micro controllers. I didn't know of
> VESTA boards, so rather than the Basic Stamp, I latched onto the
> Basic-X (http://www.basicx.com/). Faster than the BS2 and supposed
> to have more programming features...
I designed the Balancer in 1999, when the Parallax Basic Stamp 2 was the
best choice. Several "clones" of it like the ones from Scenix and
Basic-X have come out since. I haven't tried them, but some of the other
people who have built my Balancer have. They all see to work.
The Vesta website is at http://www.vestatech.com. We use these on the
Tango chargers. So far, they have been much superior to the Basic
Stamps. Cheaper, faster, more memory, etc. The ones we used
(SBC2000-062) even has analog inputs and PWM outputs. Tell them I sent
you :-)
> For your variac, perhaps a mechanical timer would be a good investment,
> so during debugging it can't run wild for more than a few hours.
Always a good idea!
For controlling a big variac, I'd get an old TV antenna rotator. Thet
turn at 1 or 2 rpm, include a switch or pot for position sensing, and
have an extremely powerful little 24vac reversible motor to make them
go. All you need is a pair of SPST switches (mechanical relays, or solid
state relays, or just triacs with an optocoupler) to turn them on/off
and control the direction. Run them on 12vac instead of 24vac and they
wont overheat even if you run them continuously.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, I do have one thought: All these failed batteries were charged by
my $70 Sears totally automatic supports-AGM-batteries charger.
I think there is a problem. I have been watching it tonight with the
voltmeter and as soon as it gets to 14 volts (like instantly) it goes to
"float" mode. This is worthless on a Hawker, which needs at least 375.
It also seems to "crash" and do nothing but *suck* power from the
battery in question. Thus now the Genesis control battery sits at *10*
volts under no load, dropping to six under load. And still pops up to 14
volts with 2 amps of charge current.
*sigh*
My guess on the Dynasty is it crashed one night while on charge and
killed the battery. The cold weather then froze the electrolyte and has
destroyed the battery.
I'm trying to charge the Hawker with the big old transformer charger,
but it is very stupid. Does anyone recommend a real 12 volt battery
charger for charging things like AGMs? This Sears one is garbage.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phillipe!!!! where can I get 50Ah starter NiCads! I want some!
Seth
On Feb 26, 2004, at 3:37 PM, Philippe Borges wrote:
Don't worry about boiling the electrolyte(not to much though stay under
45�C), Saft modules like making bubble, it's the unique way to equalize
them, you will just put more water on the next watering service.
If you want to have full capacity and good life you have to constant
current
charge them !!!
cheaper way is link10 to track amp in/out and always discharge under
20%SOC
and charge at about 120% capacity.
The date code is hot engrave on the top of the cell near watering
entrance,
it's like dd/mm/yy.
Not all the 1999 modules were defective, just track burn traces under
modules time to time, and mesure the temp permanently.
keep with saft ni-cad, it is the best, my EV motorbike will have soon
their
new 60V50ah aircraft starting Saft ni-cad pack, 3kwh will make my
commute
easily and 20C power will keep the EVilrace side of my Aprilia RS
happy !!!
keep plugged,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 5:07 PM
Subject: Boiling out the electrolyte
So I had one of those "dumb charger" moments last night that turned
into a
bit of an EVent. About 8:30pm I remembered that my motorcycle was on
charge. At first I got a shot of addrenaline, but quickly remebered
that
at
about 3:30 I had checked it and the voltage was at about 54V charging
at
about 10amps so I turned up the knob on the variac to goose it up to
about
13 amps (which is all the harder I like to push this variac since it
is
on
loan to me from John W.). I figured even though I had forgot about
it and
it should have been done charging a couple of hours ago there would
surely
only be a couple of amps going through the pack at this point as the
voltage
should have risen up to about 65V and everything would be happy. I
went
out
and checked on it and it was sitting at 56V and pushing 15amps. I
knew
something was definitely not right as I had only taken it out for
about an
8
- 10 mile 50mph jaunt which should have used up about 40ah of my 100ah
pack.
I had one of those moments when you know something is just not
right and
it is not something you should ignore, but I really had no idea what
had
happened. My wife wasn't home, and I figured it was possible but not
likely
that she had turned off the charger for a while and turned it back
on. It
was also time to get all the kids in bed, so I left the garage and
took
care
of the kids. About a half hour later I was done with the kids and the
wife
was just coming home, so at the same time I am asking her if she had
turned
off my charger I am opening the garage door. Uh Oh, something is
smoking!
I shut down the charger and started to investigate. Turns out that
one of
my SAFT modules was boiling away like crazy and steam was coming out
of
the
vents. It was a lot of steam! I removed the battery out of the pack
and
let it sit outside to cool off. It was fairly warm to the touch on
the
case, but not hot. The terminals were not hot either. I can only
still
wonder at this point what the root cause failure was, and what damage
I
did
to the rest of my pack. I'm not even sure that this battery was the
one
that caused the problem, so there will be plenty to investigate later
when
I
get a chance.
That report on the SAFT failures that was posted a couple of weeks ago
sure
looks like it applies to these batteries. I looked on the cases
after I
read that report, but could not find any kind of manufacturing date
code.
I
have lots more of these modules than what I need on the bike at one
time,
and I keep hoping that I can find 8 that will continue to work well,
but I
am starting to wonder. I may not have a NiCad powered EV much longer
at
this rate. That will be a shame, because I sure love the range.
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Store more e-mails with MSN Hotmail Extra Storage - 4 plans to choose
from!
http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200362ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
Try Battery Tender's AGM charger - Onboard Charger.
http://www.batterystuff.com/battery/deltran/onboard_charger.htm
Has true AGM algorithm, and 3-stage charging. Charge up to ~14.8v, holds for
8 hours, then floats. Come is 5-6a 12v or 2.5-3a 24v modules. Works great
for Optimas.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chris Zach
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:54 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: The Hawker keeps getting dead-er. Need a real charger
Well, I do have one thought: All these failed batteries were charged by
my $70 Sears totally automatic supports-AGM-batteries charger.
I think there is a problem. I have been watching it tonight with the
voltmeter and as soon as it gets to 14 volts (like instantly) it goes to
"float" mode. This is worthless on a Hawker, which needs at least 375.
It also seems to "crash" and do nothing but *suck* power from the
battery in question. Thus now the Genesis control battery sits at *10*
volts under no load, dropping to six under load. And still pops up to 14
volts with 2 amps of charge current.
*sigh*
My guess on the Dynasty is it crashed one night while on charge and
killed the battery. The cold weather then froze the electrolyte and has
destroyed the battery.
I'm trying to charge the Hawker with the big old transformer charger,
but it is very stupid. Does anyone recommend a real 12 volt battery
charger for charging things like AGMs? This Sears one is garbage.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Damon, send me a picture or measurements and discription of that variac
brush and I will see if I dont have one laying around or one that could be
modified. If I do I will be happy to send it to you courtesy of "Brush-Mart"
. David Chapman.
PS that motorized variac thing sounds interesting. I got a bunch of variacs
in the last load of stuff and a uP might just be a great controller. I have
salvaged a feeder out of a wire welder and I have a few stepper motors of
various sizes laying around to play with. Say, one thought, isnt there a
control card you can put into a pc to run a stepper motor off of? I swear I
have seen one and my thought is 486s are being given/thrown away (just ask
Rick Prior, he won't even park his car close when he comes over for fear of
me slipping a few more goodies in it), wouldn't one of those be a good
albeit large controller with plenty of capability for more monitoring
features? No sense re-inventing the wheel..Heck if you were in the area I
would let you dig through my Junqueyard of old computers and "stuff" you
could probably build 10 pcs and help me make some space. Got another load
coming in this weekend. DC.
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:53 AM
Subject: Playing with a Basic Stamp
> Since I lost the brush on my 18amp variac, just as I was completing my new
> dumb charger I have been trying to figure out exactly what I want to do to
> charge my motorcycle.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
20V, jillion amp power supplies (ok, like 50A) are on ebay all the
time. And with a blocking diode and kelvin connections, you could even
lay waste to the power stage and not wreck the battery.
I have a 220V input 125A, 20VDC out " charger". Some might call it a
lab-grade jump box... $35 at the local surplus store, similar prices on
ebay occasionally.
Seth
On Feb 26, 2004, at 7:54 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Well, I do have one thought: All these failed batteries were charged by
my $70 Sears totally automatic supports-AGM-batteries charger.
I think there is a problem. I have been watching it tonight with the
voltmeter and as soon as it gets to 14 volts (like instantly) it goes
to
"float" mode. This is worthless on a Hawker, which needs at least 375.
It also seems to "crash" and do nothing but *suck* power from the
battery in question. Thus now the Genesis control battery sits at *10*
volts under no load, dropping to six under load. And still pops up to
14 volts with 2 amps of charge current.
*sigh*
My guess on the Dynasty is it crashed one night while on charge and
killed the battery. The cold weather then froze the electrolyte and
has destroyed the battery.
I'm trying to charge the Hawker with the big old transformer charger,
but it is very stupid. Does anyone recommend a real 12 volt battery
charger for charging things like AGMs? This Sears one is garbage.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
> Rod Hower wrote:
> > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Honda
> > and Toyota hybrids use BLDC (this is slang for
> > synchronous AC).
>
> Yes, that is correct from what I've seen.
Correction time for Rod and Lee..... The motor in the Insight is not a brushless DC,
it's
a synchronous AC motor, ....and, BLDC is 'not' slang at all, for a synchronous AC
motor.
The Insight's AC motor has a PM rotor, and stator coils that are fed 3 phase AC from an
external AC supply.
If you have two wires that go to a motor, you feed it DC and it turns, it's a DC motor,
plain and simple, whether it has an internal mechanical commutator and brushes
arrangement, or a solid state affair to convert things to AC 'inside the motor' in
place
of the commutator and brushes.
If you have three wires that go to the motor, and you feed it 3 phase AC and it spins,
it's an AC motor.
If the DC motor has a solid state inverter inside the motor housing or at least
attached
as part of the motor housing, and again, you feed it with two wires from a pure DC
source,
it's a brushless DC type. If, as with the Insight, you have the motor in the front of
the
car, and an inverter in back that is connected to that motor via three wires that
conduct
three phase AC up to the motor, no way, it's a brushless DC type...it's a 3 phase,
synchronous AC motor, a motor that 'needs' an external source of 3 phase AC juice in
order
to spin.
If the Insight's motor had an inverter built into it, and it only had two power feed
wires
that conducted DC into the motor, then yes, it would be a brushless DC, but that is not
the case.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've had pretty good luck with my Craftsman charger. It's the one with 12/24v and
automotive/deep cycle/gel setting.
I use the gel setting with AGMs. It'll hit a weak Hawker with 20 amps. If the
battery is quite low, it'll pull big amps for quite a while, then it goes into it's
pulse mode. It'll hit the battery with a pulse till the voltage hits around 15, then
wait for the battery voltage to fall off, then hit it again. When the pulses get less
frequent, it's almost done. And shuts off completely when it thinks its fully charged.
Usually I just use this for playing with new batteries. But I also use it on my 24V
quad 16ah hawker lawnmower pack.
Works for me.
I know I've heard other people sing the praises of this charger before, I wanted to
add my 2cents. Maybe you've got a different model?
Darin Gilbert
Bad Fish Racing
> Well, I do have one thought: All these failed batteries were charged by
> my $70 Sears totally automatic supports-AGM-batteries charger.
>
> I think there is a problem. I have been watching it tonight with the
> voltmeter and as soon as it gets to 14 volts (like instantly) it goes to
> "float" mode. This is worthless on a Hawker, which needs at least 375.
> It also seems to "crash" and do nothing but *suck* power from the
> battery in question. Thus now the Genesis control battery sits at *10*
> volts under no load, dropping to six under load. And still pops up to 14
> volts with 2 amps of charge current.
>
> *sigh*
>
> My guess on the Dynasty is it crashed one night while on charge and
> killed the battery. The cold weather then froze the electrolyte and has
> destroyed the battery.
>
> I'm trying to charge the Hawker with the big old transformer charger,
> but it is very stupid. Does anyone recommend a real 12 volt battery
> charger for charging things like AGMs? This Sears one is garbage.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 6:17 PM -0800 2-26-04, John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Lee Hart wrote:
Rod Hower wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Honda
> and Toyota hybrids use BLDC (this is slang for
> synchronous AC).
Yes, that is correct from what I've seen.
Correction time for Rod and Lee..... The motor in the Insight is not
a brushless DC, it's
a synchronous AC motor, ....and, BLDC is 'not' slang at all, for a
synchronous AC motor.
The Insight's AC motor has a PM rotor, and stator coils that are fed
3 phase AC from an
external AC supply.
Hey John,
That is such a nice concept, and it sure would be nice if what you
just described was the common terminology, but unfortunately I
believe you are wrong on this one. (Ooh, I savor the rare times I can
say that about John!)
Look at all the BLDC servo motors on machinery. They have both
internal and external controllers with 3 power wires to the motor.
Yet I don't believe that they are regularly called AC.
Classic example:
http://www.bodine-electric.com/Asp/ProductGroup.asp?Context=15
I believe it is more correct to refer to the Prius, Insight, EV+ and
RAV4-EV motors as permanent magnet synchronous AC, But in reality
most people in the motor industry call them BLDC.
I've heard some motor designers say that if it's driven with a sine
wave it's AC and if it's square or trapezoid then it's BLDC. But I've
seen differences in that as well. There just seems to be no standard
here.
Have fun.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, all of the motor controls I design are
called BLDC. Some of them are integrated with
the motor and have two wires connected to DC power.
Other controls are external and have 3 phase wires
and hall signals connected. Either way they are
3 phase synchronous AC motors. BLDC is a marketing
term. My original point is that Toyota and Honda
use 3 phase sychronous AC motors with permanent magnet
rotors. So I ask again, are these 3 phase synchronous
motors with permanent magnet rotors?
Another question, all of the scooters and E-bikes
use 3-phase synchronous motors with integrated
controls. Why don't they use induction motors with
the same control? (different software, but same
hardware for the control).
--- John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello to All,
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> > Rod Hower wrote:
> > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the Honda
> > > and Toyota hybrids use BLDC (this is slang for
> > > synchronous AC).
> >
> > Yes, that is correct from what I've seen.
>
> Correction time for Rod and Lee..... The motor in
> the Insight is not a brushless DC, it's
> a synchronous AC motor, ....and, BLDC is 'not' slang
> at all, for a synchronous AC motor.
> The Insight's AC motor has a PM rotor, and stator
> coils that are fed 3 phase AC from an
> external AC supply.
>
> If you have two wires that go to a motor, you feed
> it DC and it turns, it's a DC motor,
> plain and simple, whether it has an internal
> mechanical commutator and brushes
> arrangement, or a solid state affair to convert
> things to AC 'inside the motor' in place
> of the commutator and brushes.
>
> If you have three wires that go to the motor, and
> you feed it 3 phase AC and it spins,
> it's an AC motor.
>
> If the DC motor has a solid state inverter inside
> the motor housing or at least attached
> as part of the motor housing, and again, you feed it
> with two wires from a pure DC source,
> it's a brushless DC type. If, as with the Insight,
> you have the motor in the front of the
> car, and an inverter in back that is connected to
> that motor via three wires that conduct
> three phase AC up to the motor, no way, it's a
> brushless DC type...it's a 3 phase,
> synchronous AC motor, a motor that 'needs' an
> external source of 3 phase AC juice in order
> to spin.
>
> If the Insight's motor had an inverter built into
> it, and it only had two power feed wires
> that conducted DC into the motor, then yes, it would
> be a brushless DC, but that is not
> the case.
>
> See Ya....John Wayland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting enough I already have the timer wired into the dumb charger that
I was building around the variac that went bad. The variac that I am using
now is a very nice setup that I am borrowing from John Wayland, but a timer
is the one feature it is missing.
For your variac, perhaps a mechanical timer would be a good investment, so
during debugging it can't run wild for more than a few hours.
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3 phase synchronous AC motors vs AC induction, which
do you think would give the best performance and
efficiency. I'll throw price out the window...
Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Took the bike out for a test drive tonight, just
around the parking lot, as I have'nt connected the
lights yet. It feels like it has more acceleration
taking off in fourth than it did before with the ICE.
I will post some pictures to my website tonight. I've
built other ev's before for off road use but never for
performance. That big ole' grin is contagious.
Reverend "big grin" Gadget
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen triple the rated voltage on several motors.
I have been advised that I can put 96 volts on my 24 Volt starter/generator
and it should live.
In my experience it is either excess amps or excess RPM that will kill the
motor. Not excess voltage.
Over amps cause brush/commutator flashover and over RPM will explode the
commutator.
Both of them are byproducts of raising the voltage without a controller
smart enough to put a current limit in the motor loop or having a tach
pickup to cut the drive if something comes uncoupled under load
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:06 AM
Subject: Voltage to motor
> How much CAN one go over the name plate voltage on a ADC motor? Let's say
> just for 1/8 mile.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
3 phase synchronous AC motors vs AC induction, which
do you think would give the best performance and
efficiency. I'll throw price out the window...
Gadget
Hi Rev,
I'm going to assume that when you say synchronous you also mean
permanent magnet.
Peak power is proportional to the flux x the area in the airgap x the
RPM, so it can be similar for both.
For efficiency (which determines weight in many situations) I say the
answer depends on the peak/cruise torque ratio.
For a high peak and low cruise, induction wins. If you cruise closer
to the peak, (WAG 30% of peak or higher) then BLDC wins. Underpowered
BLDC cars are very efficient.
On the other hand, a synchronous AC wound field motor can do a bit
better than a induction, and if it's combined with a PM rotor then
you can likely beat the pure PM synchronous unit over the operating
map.
The trouble is that when you remove cost from the equation, there are
large number of different motors that could be used.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:16 PM +0000 on 2/26/04, John Lawton wrote:
Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is
$5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8 USD to the UKP).
Try $5.46, assuming �2.95 per gallon. Current
exchange rate is about $1.86 to �1, as of 4pm
GMT, Feb. 27, 2004.
That would mean $100+ to fill up my Volvo. At
19MPG, that would break my bank account.
--
Auf wiedersehen!
______________________________________________________
"..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
"Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
"..No."
"Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
-Real Genius
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Joe, Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 9:37 PM
Subject: Re: Voltage to motor
> I have seen triple the rated voltage on several motors.
>
> I have been advised that I can put 96 volts on my 24 Volt
starter/generator
> and it should live.
>
> In my experience it is either excess amps or excess RPM that will kill the
> motor. Not excess voltage.
>
> Over amps cause brush/commutator flashover and over RPM will explode the
> commutator.
>
> Both of them are byproducts of raising the voltage without a controller
> smart enough to put a current limit in the motor loop or having a tach
> pickup to cut the drive if something comes uncoupled under load
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:06 AM
> Subject: Voltage to motor
>
>
> > How much CAN one go over the name plate voltage on a ADC motor? Let's
say
> > just for 1/8 mile.
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry
Making some changes to limit SPAM, just checking to make sure my server
is still working with the EVDL.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to really have some fun why not call it a BLDC engine :-)
I believe it is more correct to refer to the Prius, Insight, EV+ and
RAV4-EV motors as permanent magnet synchronous AC, But in reality most
people in the motor industry call them BLDC.
I've heard some motor designers say that if it's driven with a sine wave
it's AC and if it's square or trapezoid then it's BLDC. But I've seen
differences in that as well. There just seems to be no standard here.
Have fun.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our french gas price is 4,7 $ per US gallon
A typical French Infernal Combustion Engine car need 1,5 gallon to go 100km
= $7/100km
Electricity is 0,1 $/kwh all tax included, my EV need 21kw/h charge to go
100km = $2,1/100km
So why we don't have millions EV on our roads ?
answer is very simple: no advertise at all, counter-advertise (fuel-cell),
unproductive government bla bla bla, etc...
stay plugged
Philippe
un-mobility fighter
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, February 27, 2004 5:08 AM
Subject: Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
> At 12:16 PM +0000 on 2/26/04, John Lawton wrote:
>
> >Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is
> >$5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8 USD to the UKP).
>
> Try $5.46, assuming �2.95 per gallon. Current
> exchange rate is about $1.86 to �1, as of 4pm
> GMT, Feb. 27, 2004.
>
> That would mean $100+ to fill up my Volvo. At
> 19MPG, that would break my bank account.
> --
>
>
> Auf wiedersehen!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
>
> "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
> of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
> women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
>
> "..No."
>
> "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
>
> -Real Genius
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu Feb 26, 2004 11:52 am
> Subject: Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
> I am just hoping for $4-5 a gallon to thin out the SUVs... and to
> jump-start the EV industry.
> Seth
Well, in Germany it's already above $5/gallon (~1.10 Euro/liter).
SUVs are getting more and more popular, the only two German EV makers (CityCom and
Twike) are struggling to survive, and Citroen in France has stopped producing the Saxo
electrique more than a year ago because of "no demand" (the Berlingo minivan is still
available, though).
EV programs using Citroens and Peugeots in Switzerland have problems because of very
little support from the manufacturers (takes months to get replacement parts), the few
drivers of such EVs in Germany have similar problems.
I've read a good analogy recently (please don't try this at home ;-) :
If you throw a frog into a pot of hot water, he tries to jump out of it immediately.
But if you throw him in a pot of cold water and then heat the water up slowly, the
frog will stay in the pot until he dies.
Frogs and men and SUV drivers have many things in common...
Regards, Jens
--
EV: '95 Renault Express electrique
Scooter: '01 Peugeot Scootelec
COMEDY HILFT!
Am 26.M�rz 2004 ist wieder RED NOSE DAY! Machen auch Sie unter dem Motto
"Haare rot f�r Kinder in Not" etwas Verr�cktes f�r einen guten Zweck!
Infos unter www.rednoseday.de
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, what Oat said. (And Lee and Rod...) As for the application, I
assume you want a powerful motor. If that is the case, then induction
will win for efficiency, but you will be splitting hairs. BLDC will do
more peak power per pound, and induction will be much more flexible due
to field weakening. Induction can win due in a drag race to the area
under the curve with a lower peak power for this reason, IMO.
**ESPECIALLY** if you go transmissionless.
Yes you can field weaken a BLDC/PM Synchronous motor. 100+kW ones are
very rare and the amount of field weakening is nothing like that you
can get on induction, where you can quadruple base speed.
2 more cents.
Seth
On Feb 26, 2004, at 10:48 PM, Otmar wrote:
3 phase synchronous AC motors vs AC induction, which
do you think would give the best performance and
efficiency. I'll throw price out the window...
Gadget
Hi Rev,
I'm going to assume that when you say synchronous you also mean
permanent magnet.
Peak power is proportional to the flux x the area in the airgap x the
RPM, so it can be similar for both.
For efficiency (which determines weight in many situations) I say the
answer depends on the peak/cruise torque ratio.
For a high peak and low cruise, induction wins. If you cruise closer
to the peak, (WAG 30% of peak or higher) then BLDC wins. Underpowered
BLDC cars are very efficient.
On the other hand, a synchronous AC wound field motor can do a bit
better than a induction, and if it's combined with a PM rotor then you
can likely beat the pure PM synchronous unit over the operating map.
The trouble is that when you remove cost from the equation, there are
large number of different motors that could be used.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So with gas over $5 per gallon are the BEV's popping up all over? What kind
of gas milage dose a regular car get in the UK?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Hurley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
> At 12:16 PM +0000 on 2/26/04, John Lawton wrote:
>
> >Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is
> >$5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8 USD to the UKP).
>
> Try $5.46, assuming �2.95 per gallon. Current
> exchange rate is about $1.86 to �1, as of 4pm
> GMT, Feb. 27, 2004.
>
> That would mean $100+ to fill up my Volvo. At
> 19MPG, that would break my bank account.
> --
>
>
> Auf wiedersehen!
>
> ______________________________________________________
> "..Um..Something strange happened to me this morning."
>
> "Was it a dream where you see yourself standing in sort
> of Sun God robes on a pyramid with a thousand naked
> women screaming and throwing little pickles at you?"
>
> "..No."
>
> "Why am I the only person that has that dream?"
>
> -Real Genius
>
--- End Message ---
