EV Digest 3384
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by John Lawton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Evercell MB-100 Chargers
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Motor properties
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motor properties
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) EDN Battery Scan Circuit
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: BLDC on my sons go-cart
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Motor timing (was: RE: dyno2)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Evercell MB-100 Chargers
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Motor properties
by Paul G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Motor properties
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Grid-powered "dump charging" (was RE: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell)
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Motor timing (was: RE: dyno2)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Isolated Single Stage PFC
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Motor properties
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) OT: Big motor on ebay...
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) AGM performance
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: ampabout ... deadbeat EV
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_51/b3813085.htm Looks like
Honda believes their own propaganda. The last question is a classic.
Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:10 01/03/2004, you wrote:
At 10:08 PM -0600 on 2/26/04, Michael Hurley wrote:
At 12:16 PM +0000 on 2/26/04, John Lawton wrote:
Well imagine in the UK where petrol (gas) is $5.30 per US gallon (at 1.8
USD to the UKP).
Try $5.46, assuming �2.95 per gallon. Current exchange rate is about
$1.86 to �1, as of 4pm GMT, Feb. 27, 2004.
I forgot something important here when I was figuring this last time. The
Imperial gallon is larger than US gallon (about 1.2 UK to 1 US). This
means the UK pice is more like 6.55 per gallon here. Ouch.
No, you were correct before. I'll set out all the workings:
I pay UKP 0.779 per litre in Cambridge in the UK, (although it may be a bit
cheaper in other areas).
A US gallon is 3.785 litres (the Imperial gallon is 4.546litres).
Therefore a US gallon would cost 3.785 x 0.779 = UKP 2.95
At a currency conversion rate of 1.868 this is US$ 5.51
John
--
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can anyone recommend a charger for the Evercels? Particularly the MB-100.
We're looking at a charger for a 48-volt application.
Thanks
Chip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
What I found was a way to move a magnet past a coil without there being any
induced current present in the coil.
You will no doubt know that as long as the wires of the coil are not
connected during this process there is no resistance to the magnet passing,
this resistance is often referred to as Lenz law or bemf, but as soon as you
connect the coil wires creating a direct short across it the resulting
magnetic field from the current flow will apply a back force to the magnet
which most schooled people seem to consider to be equal and opposite to the
force applied to the magnet to make it move toward the coil.
When the coil is open and there is no resistance there is still a potential
voltage built in the coil and when closed this becomes a current and a
current moving in a coil always results in a magnetic pole being formed by
the coil and Lenz law states that this pole will always oppose the pole
causing it, so a north pole magnet approaching a coil will always result in
a north pole being generated by the coil in its attempt to oppose the
action, this is equally a realisation of the laws of conservation in a motor
where one force creates another equal but opposing force to counter it.
There are 2 ways to use my system parallel and series, I use parallel
because it is best for my pulse motor and allows me to power the motor with
no induced current and no collapsing counter flux field, which means I can
power my motor for only the correct amount of time to generate the best
performance and at all other times during the cycle the rotor spins freely
between the coils.
I do not have to hold the pulse until the magnet is so close to tdc that the
collapsing field of the coil will not have a detrimental effect on
performance because there is no collapsing field to worry about.
The basic methodology is to use 2 coils as a pair instead of treating each
coil as an individual, by doing this we can look at Lenz and see that if it
is correct and the coil will make a north pole at the closest end to the
north pole magnet as it approaches then something must change for this to
happen and this change is the direction of current or potential in the coil,
so now instead of one coil with a north pole approaching it, we have 2 and
as long as they are treated as single coils they will act accordingly, but
if we turn one around now you can see that Lenz demands of this coil that
its poles remain in the same place, but its current changes direction, so
now we have one coil with forward potential and one with backward potential
if you were to simply put these 2 coils together in series or parallel the
induced current in each is cancelled out by the other, all things being
equal.
In my motor I use the coils paired in parallel and they are permanently
connected so each of the coils in the pair is closing the circuit of the
other and they always have a direct short circuit and yet never produce any
output and as long as there is no output there is no Lenz and as soon as you
topple Lenz a lot of other impossibilities turn into reality as well.
Just so I cover all the bases in one post let me try and reply to everyone
in this 1.
First let me say im not looking for your money your praise or anything else
im just looking for more performance for less draw and if you don't think
that is worth some time to pursue and maybe understand try not to waste
everyone's time with argumentative posts because you can not argue against
reality and win and as long as I have a running motor here it matters not if
you can comprehend how it can possibly work, what matters is that it does
and it has been successfully replicated around the world since I last
mentioned it here and not one single person who has built one has said it
was anything less than what I told them it would be ...the best motor you
can build.
Rich:
On list off list I don't care if I can show you how this works you will be
able to find a way to make it work for you and it sounds like you have the
skills to realistically evaluate it.
My basic argument is this when your controller applies a pulse to your motor
lets say 50 volts and your motor is almost flat out, it is almost flat out
because every time your controller pulses it is pulsing into a motor that is
in fact a generator and flat out is basically when input equals output minus
losses and so as soon as your output reaches 98% of your input, on a 98%
efficient motor it stops accelerating, if you were to remove the output,
then the speed is solely controlled by the on time of the controller and no
longer limited to the point where output and losses equals input because
there is no output.
If you have a 50 volt motor that tops out at 1000 rpm and you want to get
2000 rpm from it ,can you not see that it is smarter to remove the output
than increase the input ?
As I understand it the output increases at the square of the increase in rpm
which is why you cant double the power of a motor on a generator and get
double the power from it, so you get 2000 rpm you would have to increase the
voltage by a lot more than double, so to reduce the output you would
normally reduce the number of turns per coil and thereby reduce the torque
while reducing the output to achieve the higher speed when what I am
suggesting is to actually double the number of turns while still achieving
the same resistance as reducing them by half, I know that if the resistance
is increased like this it will still be seen by the average techie as
reducing torque but they always seem to overlook the fact that while the
resistance is doubled so too is the flux field by the additional windings
and so you end up with reduced output increased flux and higher speed (HP)
without the sacrifice of torque.
Peter:
I see you couldn't wait to jump in asking for proof and as I recall you are
pretty clued up on this sort of stuff so why not ignore the fact that you
don't understand it and give me the benefit of the doubt for long enough to
learn something about motors that just might benefit you and others here
looking for better range and performance from outdated off the shelf
technology.
No offence, but honestly what have you got to loose ?
Myles:
I see you understand this very well and I totally understand your scepticism
but honestly I wont charge you a dollar :)
I have asked many a supposedly clued up techie to do one simple thing for me
and it seems you may be the one to do it, ignoring the fact that you don't
understand it or that you think it cant be done, which is the basis of most
of my conversations with electronics techs and could you please reapply your
very good understanding of the maths behind a motor for both a standard
motor of your choice and the same motor if it had no induced current and
again if it had no bemf ?
If im right the answer is impossible to calculate or it comes out so good
that none of them have even bothered to say so cause it destroys their
argument so I would really appreciate it if you could do this because it is
beyond me.
Me:
I'm just a simple backyard experimenter who accidentally stumbled across a
little trick that starts with eliminating the bemf and then moves on to
creating forward emf, I don't have sophisticated test equipment, so don't
ask for impossible results unless you are prepared to come do the tests
yourself, what I do have is a motor that runs while the coils remain
permanently closed and that itself is impossible, but once you understand
how it can be done, what seems impossible is just something anyone can do.
Every action in the motor has a reaction and these are all interlinked,
induction results in eddy currents, eddy currents result in heat etc etc,
remove just one single action and all the actions and reactions it causes
down the chain are removed as well and I don't need fancy test equipment to
know that.
My direct addy is [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you wish to pursue this off list and
unless specifically asked to respond I will not continue this on the list
and offend people like it did last time even though it would be easier to do
it here instead of answering the same questions many times.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List members, please do not respond to this post. It will waste bandwidth,
and it's not worth your time.
David
Assistant EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 1 Mar 2004 at 1:08, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Honda believes their own propaganda.
I guess.
"Emissions are near zero, and in some cities the exhaust coming out of the
tailpipe is cleaner than the air going in."
Where do they get this rubbish?
"One disadvantage of battery-driven electric cars is that battery technology
hasn't progressed very much. It's a traditional technology, and we don't see
any future for it. The other problem is that batteries need several hours to
recharge. Fuel-cell cars and conventional cars can be refueled in a minute
or two or three. With an electric car, the quickest is more than three
hours. And they don't work in cold weather."
Riiiiight.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 04:07 AM, John Lawton wrote:
I pay UKP 0.779 per litre in Cambridge in the UK, (although it may be
a bit cheaper in other areas).
A US gallon is 3.785 litres (the Imperial gallon is 4.546litres).
Therefore a US gallon would cost 3.785 x 0.779 = UKP 2.95
At a currency conversion rate of 1.868 this is US$ 5.51
OK. My bad. Still, very expensive compared to here.
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My wife has always been fairly understanding about my "weird facination with
electric stuff" but since the gas prices have started to go up, and up and
up, she has started to see the electric as a darn good investment. She has
even started driving it more.
Well the other night myself and a few friends started one of those "what's
wrong with this country is __________" conversations. We came up with an
idea that we agreed would be WILDLY unpopular, but would completely (or
nearly so) do away with our need for / dependance on foreign, and domestic
oil.
It would be a multi year plan:
Starting in year one a $.25 per gallon tax is put on all forms of petrolium
products EXCEPT home heating oil (and maybe propane). This tax would be
split "evenly" between research/production of alternative energy sources and
building up a proper mass transit and freight infrastructure.
In year two, the tax goes up to $.50 per gallon.
It contiues to go up $.25 per year every year until the average cost per
gallon of gasoline is the same as the average cost per gallon in the
European Union.
This would likely have the side benefit of getting a lot of those SUV's and
Hummers off the road.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
The superior man is distressed by the limitation of his ability; he is not
distressed by the fact that men do not recognize the ability he has. -
Confucius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Michael Hurley
> Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:31 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Gas prices make electric sound pretty good!
>
>
>
> On Monday, March 1, 2004, at 04:07 AM, John Lawton wrote:
>
> > I pay UKP 0.779 per litre in Cambridge in the UK, (although
> it may be
> > a bit cheaper in other areas).
> > A US gallon is 3.785 litres (the Imperial gallon is 4.546litres).
> > Therefore a US gallon would cost 3.785 x 0.779 = UKP 2.95
> > At a currency conversion rate of 1.868 this is US$ 5.51
>
> OK. My bad. Still, very expensive compared to here.
>
>
> _________________________________________________
> Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
> AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
> 1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
> Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I plan on using a motor with more amp-turns to provide
higher starting torque and slower top speed.
This system will also be more efficient.
I'll still have the top speed limited electronically
by operating in all 4 torque speed quadrants.
Rod.
I'll also have the ultra slow mode 'Moms watching'
switch.
--- Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why not put an RPM limit in the software?
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, February 29, 2004 12:05 PM
> Subject: BLDC on my sons go-cart
>
>
> > Last night and this morning I finished installing
> > a motor and control on my sons go cart.
> > The motor on my daughters was rated at 1700 RPM at
> > 24V. My sons is rated at 3400 RPM at 24V but has
> a
> > 50% higher gear ratio.
> > I also only have 3 12V batteries (for now) on his
> > cart.
> > This thing is actually scary, it goes about 40MPH
> > and doesn't bog down to much on the hills. If I
> > had some hawkers I could pull the hills even
> faster
> > (the fully charged batteries were dropping to 28V
> > loaded on the hill).
> > I wouldn't let my son drive it, to dangerous for
> now.
> > Time to get a 1500 RPM motor.
> > Rod
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The next break in step is to time the motor for 13 Deg. after
> finding the Actual nuetral point.
Hi Rich,
I've seen lots written about this, but I'm not really sure exactly what
it means. Could you (or some other motor gurus) help the less-savvy
among us get a handle on this concept? Just exactly where is the
neutral point on a motor?
1. Is it a purely mechanical relationship between brushes and
commutator? Or is it only in a theoretical sense, and you should take
some electrical measurements to find the actual neutral? If this is the
case, how much motor-to-motor variation might there be? How do you go
about making the measurements to find neutral? How many neutral
positions are there as the commutator goes through one revolution?
Or
2. Is neutral more dependent on application, say at a particular
nameplate voltage and amperage input? If so, how far does neutral move
if you double the nameplate voltage? Or triple it?
Still feeling like a newbie,
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip,
Sounds like this is for a scooter or other small EV.
So size and weight are a consideration.
It's possible to get a Zivan charger with the NiZn charging profile. Might
be the best combination for this situation.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chip Gribben
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 5:33 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Evercell MB-100 Chargers
Can anyone recommend a charger for the Evercels? Particularly the MB-100.
We're looking at a charger for a 48-volt application.
Thanks
Chip
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles wrote:
Unless you're saying that the
Back EMF is a nonlinear combination of the motor current and a linearly
increasing resistance with RPM, I haven't a clue what you are talking about.
I'm not saying it isn't real, it's just that Back EMF is commonly known to
be a constant for electric motors and is expressed in terms of VOLTS/SPEED.
So to have a Back EMF expression of 228 ohms/1000RPM, I read this as there
would be ZERO back EMF
if the motor current is ZERO, regardless of the RPM.
The motor current sets the field strength in a series motor so BEMF
is not a fixed voltage for an rpm. Increase the current at a given
rpm and you increase the motor field strength and that increases the
BEMF. In theory, at zero current a series motor has zero BEMF at any
rpm. In reality some residual magnetism will be left in the field
iron.
Neon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_51/b3813085.htm
> Looks like
> Honda believes their own propaganda. The last question is a classic.
Fastest recharge time 3 hours? Hmmm. John Wayland does the dump
charging thing a whole lot faster than that. Seems to me 10-15 minutes
ought to be achievable at consumer recharge stations, as long as
industrial-size grid-power connections are available. But either the
car or the recharge station would need a special current-regulating
high-power charger, to avoid giving too much too fast to batteries that
can't handle it.
Is anybody currently doing "dump charging" from grid power rather than
a secondary battery pack?
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to Joe and Neon Paul for explaining this.
I am slapping myself in the face right now for not getting it...maybe I've
been using a permag motor too long already...
-Myles
> The motor current sets the field strength in a series motor so BEMF
> is not a fixed voltage for an rpm. Increase the current at a given
> rpm and you increase the motor field strength and that increases the
> BEMF. In theory, at zero current a series motor has zero BEMF at any
> rpm. In reality some residual magnetism will be left in the field
> iron.
>
> Neon
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 168v pack in my Sparrow, and with a 240v feed and PFC-50 charger, I
can recharge in as little as 20-25 minutes. But that's for a pack with about
20-25 miles per charge range at freeway speed.
Typically recharging time isn't a factor with production EVs because most
users don't drive over 100 miles per day. So recharging each night, ones
begins the day with a full pack. Gas drivers refill about twice a week,
typically going out of their way to get to a gas station. EV owners
typically recharge in the convience of their garage or carport, while
sleeping at night. Different paradigms.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Shawn Rutledge
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2004 10:06 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Honda Produces cold weather fuel cell.
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_51/b3813085.htm
> Looks like
> Honda believes their own propaganda. The last question is a classic.
Fastest recharge time 3 hours? Hmmm. John Wayland does the dump
charging thing a whole lot faster than that. Seems to me 10-15 minutes
ought to be achievable at consumer recharge stations, as long as
industrial-size grid-power connections are available. But either the
car or the recharge station would need a special current-regulating
high-power charger, to avoid giving too much too fast to batteries that
can't handle it.
Is anybody currently doing "dump charging" from grid power rather than
a secondary battery pack?
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reading the article, concerning the fuel cell stack,
"It's now composed of a stack of 400 separate plates. That part is also a
challenge for quality control because the worst single plate of the 400
determines the performance of the whole system."
With the BEV version of the Honda, there were 24 NiMH batteries, or 144
cells. Much lower risk of failer with fewer links in the chain - 144 vs 400.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
Honda EV+ for 4 years, 90,000 miles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have a 168v pack in my Sparrow, and with a 240v feed and PFC-50
> charger, I
> can recharge in as little as 20-25 minutes. But that's for a pack
> with about
> 20-25 miles per charge range at freeway speed.
That's not bad.
Is there anything bigger than a PFC-50? I was thinking an electric
"filling station" could get an industrial power feed, 408V or 440V or
whatever that usual voltage is, and be able to deliver hundreds of amps
at once at any typical pack voltage (maybe even charge more than one
car at the same time), providing the batteries can handle it. If the
EV market was to be scaled up, such services would be necessary IMO.
> Typically recharging time isn't a factor with production EVs because
> most
> users don't drive over 100 miles per day. So recharging each night,
> ones
> begins the day with a full pack. Gas drivers refill about twice a
> week,
> typically going out of their way to get to a gas station. EV owners
> typically recharge in the convience of their garage or carport, while
> sleeping at night. Different paradigms.
Yeah that's been preached ad nauseam here but it remains a marketing
problem for the general public. It's kindof like saying nobody needs
laundromats, because you can wash clothes at home. Just in case you
have a long day, more than an average commute, it would be good to know
you can recharge quickly at convenient recharge stations. Otherwise
the car does not satisfy every need, only basic commuting; and lots of
normal people can't afford to buy 2 cars, or want to deal with some
sort of alternate power-plant or pusher trailer. But my point is it
shouldn't be such a tough problem to solve anyway; and their statement
that the best that can be achieved is a 3-hour recharge time, is
unjustified, and I wonder where it even came from. Maybe that was the
best that was achieved using the inductive charging paddle, or
something like that.
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Tromley wrote:
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > The next break in step is to time the motor for 13 Deg. after
> > finding the Actual nuetral point.
>
> Hi Rich,
>
> I've seen lots written about this, but I'm not really sure exactly what
> it means. Could you (or some other motor gurus) help the less-savvy
> among us get a handle on this concept? Just exactly where is the
> neutral point on a motor?
>
> 1. Is it a purely mechanical relationship between brushes and
> commutator? Or is it only in a theoretical sense, and you should take
> some electrical measurements to find the actual neutral? If this is the
> case, how much motor-to-motor variation might there be? How do you go
> about making the measurements to find neutral? How many neutral
> positions are there as the commutator goes through one revolution?
>
> Or
>
> 2. Is neutral more dependent on application, say at a particular
> nameplate voltage and amperage input? If so, how far does neutral move
> if you double the nameplate voltage? Or triple it?
>
> Still feeling like a newbie,
>
> Chris
OK, Nuetral point, or where the brushes are really at nuetral. Some
motors have a bolt hole set that lets you set them to 0. Some motors
have a hole that is called nuetral, and is not actually nuetral.
To find the REAL nuetral point, separate the field from the aramture
windings. Apply a 10 amp AC current across the field, Rotate the brushes
until you find a spot that has the least voltage across the armature
connections. This is the REAL nuetral point. Mark the brush endbell to
the case with a cold chizzel, And this becomes your reference for adding
new Endbell bolt holes in the case for adding more timing.
Assume nothing test and verify everything.
Umm 4 points and it's where your brushes should be for max efficientcy.
At zero RPM these points can be measured. Once the motor starts to turn,
and make power they get shifted because the field gets warped by the
intractions of the Armature. We time race motors advanced so that the
fields can be warped back into a acceptable poistion as the loads get
applied.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Rutledge wrote:
>
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/02_51/b3813085.htm
> > Looks like
> > Honda believes their own propaganda. The last question is a classic.
>
> Fastest recharge time 3 hours? Hmmm. John Wayland does the dump
> charging thing a whole lot faster than that. Seems to me 10-15 minutes
> ought to be achievable at consumer recharge stations, as long as
> industrial-size grid-power connections are available. But either the
> car or the recharge station would need a special current-regulating
> high-power charger, to avoid giving too much too fast to batteries that
> can't handle it.
>
> Is anybody currently doing "dump charging" from grid power rather than
> a secondary battery pack?
>
> =====
> . _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> __) | | \______________________________________________
>
> __________________________________
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Ummm is 11Kw considered Dump charging???
If Wayland left the White Zombie in high voltage mode for me to charge
with the PFC50, We would be doing the Grid refill just about as fast as
the dump pack, and a PFC20 Bucker.
We were doing 8 minute recharges last fall. John could Take a Pee,
before we got the Zombie turned around!!
With a 100 amp grid feed, and twin PFC50s...We could hurt the batteries
in about 4 runs. They would get close to over heating.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Single stage PFC is the Holy Grail of switchers. Jim Spangler has been
working on this since the mid 80's and has finally perfected it and got a
patent on it for ON Semiconductor. They now have demo boards from the APEC
04' Conference. The flyback topology is required for operation which limits
operation to 200W, probably realistically 150W if you are going for class-B
FCC emissions requirements. The main trick is to modulate the controller
chip 120 hertz and maintain closed loop stability without the bulk DC cap in
place. So as you get into the higher power requirements dual stage is still
needed. With the lower RSdon Coolmos Infineon and STmicroelectronics MDmesh
fets, power electronics size can be reduced further. I can forward to the
ev'ers.
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello, Garry.
The most interesting part of your message are the words:
"as long as I have a running motor here it matters not if
you can comprehend how it can possibly work, what matters is that it does
and it has been successfully replicated around the world since I last
mentioned it here and not one single person who has built one has said it
was anything less than what I told them it would be ...the best motor you
can build."
I think that instead of trying to explain how your motor works, offer data
on the motor's performance. Since the motor was successfully replicated
by others, then there must be descriptions and drawings available. Tell us
how to get data, descriptions and drawings. Better yet tell us how to buy
one now or in the reasonable near future.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We were doing 8 minute recharges last fall. John could Take a Pee,
> before we got the Zombie turned around!!
> With a 100 amp grid feed, and twin PFC50s...
Each charging half the pack I suppose?
Yeah that sounds like an acceptable recharge time; if production EV's
could do that, it would be one less thing for anybody to object to.
> We could hurt the
> batteries
> in about 4 runs. They would get close to over heating.
But those are AGMs. Can you do that with flooded batteries too? What
about NiCads, what is their maximum charge rate?
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Rutledge wrote:
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > We were doing 8 minute recharges last fall. John could Take a Pee,
> > before we got the Zombie turned around!!
> > With a 100 amp grid feed, and twin PFC50s...
>
> Each charging half the pack I suppose?
>
> Yeah that sounds like an acceptable recharge time; if production EV's
> could do that, it would be one less thing for anybody to object to.
>
> > We could hurt the
> > batteries
> > in about 4 runs. They would get close to over heating.
>
> But those are AGMs. Can you do that with flooded batteries too? What
> about NiCads, what is their maximum charge rate?
>
> =====
> . _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> __) | | \______________________________________________
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Get better spam protection with Yahoo! Mail.
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/tools
No complete pack cut in 1/2 voltage so he could dump into it with a 120
pack. But the eff drop by charging at 112 to 125 volts cuts the power
output the chargers can move.
At 216 volts the chargers can make full use of 50 amps of 240. Below 150
they hit the output current limits. We had a 45 minute cycle with the
dump pack and a PCF 20B. with the PFC50 we had a 8 minute cycle. And I
say without the dump pack I would beat that. The Dump pack worked great,
but to top off the pack we had to wait for the amps to taper off, and
then the Dump pack to come back up. Once both pack got over 125 we spilt
the packs, let the chager refill the dump pack while we drove to the pit
lanes.
The hardest part was getting the dump pack back up after the first dump
into a really hungry Zombie from the drive to the track. The single
PFC20Bucker can only push about 3300 watts. If John had the Zombie at
216 for charging, the little 20 that could can push 5200 watts. This
difference is more critcal than is obvious to the dump pack system.
Of course the PFC50 with Buck enhance can move 9Kw at 120 and 11Kw at
150. This brings both packs up in 1/3 the time. It would be 1/4 the time
if we did the Zombie at 216 volts. 11+ Kw of charge fills even the Big
Boy NIcad and NimH packs in 2 to 3 hours. I have not met a Ev with
greater than 50Kwhr on board.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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--- Begin Message ---
Found this for sale on ebay.co.uk, thought the motor-heads
on the list would get a charge out of reading the specs...
GEC induction motor....
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3801193587&category=1267
Somehow, I don't think it'll fit into a Mini -
- or any other car! ;-)
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
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--- Begin Message ---
Now that it's finally warming up a bit I decided to try and check the
range on the Prizm. (300 volt pack, 52ah in two strings of 25 26ah Hawkers)
First try was in the morning. Pack temp about 10 degrees C. One way I
measure capacity is to apply power till the pack voltage is 300 volts. I
then read the amp draw at 300 volts. It's a pretty good baseline for how
the pack runs under a load.
Anyway, after going down 1ah, the pack would provide about [EMAIL PROTECTED]
volts. After 10 ah draw, the pack was providing under [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts.
So I turned from home, and parked. Resting voltage under a 1amp load
(computer only) was 317 volts.
Let the car discharge for awhile using the heater (8amp draw). After 2
hours, battery voltage was down into the high 260's at the 8 amp draw.
Shut down and charged with the magnecharger.
After charging, took it for a drive. Battery temps were 25 degrees C,
was in the 60's (F) outside. After going down 1ah, pack was providing
about 170 [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts. Drove around for 20 miles and the pack did not
cross the [EMAIL PROTECTED] volts boundary till beng down 22 amps. Parked car,
left heat on. At 27ah down, voltages were once again in the 270's @8amp
draw (fell fast). Put it on charge and measured current in, 31ah went
into pack total to fill it up (the discharge was read using an E-Meter
FWIW).
This morning when I took it out, the car would only provide [EMAIL PROTECTED]
volts (after sitting all night, temp at 0c). My question is:
1) Does this all sound normal?
2) Will the pack always have this elastic problem, or is it just the cold?
3) Is this a symptom of a sulfated pack? A dried out pack? When the pack
was new this didn't happen, then again it was in the 70s to 90's during
the day and night.
4) Why did the overall pack capacity not change, and why does the rate
of discharge change so much?
Thanks!
Chris
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My work commute is so short, I have not used much of my range.
A week ago Saturday, I went to the National EAA meeting. I do
not even bother trying to use hp's EV charging. They have cut
their budget so low, they only have one man for several sites.
There is no one to answer the phone to let you in.
Palo Alto is not that far, and if I really needed a charge I
could suck some Solar Cool-ohms from Otmar's EV charger.
I am still playing it cool for an Evangelist. No one at work
truly knows I drive an EV. Although it is out front in the
parking lot. You can not miss seeing the large ELECTRIC decal
on the drivers side of my white S-10 Blazer.
I drop hints, but no one bites. Perhaps they just do not care
what a security guard/ the front desk admin does on his own
time.
Yes, I said that right, I am not just the guard that looks for
badges, and challenges those who skirt the system. I do all the
answering of phones, handling of mail and packages,
spreadsheets,
email, and yadda-yadda-yadda.
I suppose some might think I would be able to some how ease into
letting them know in a clever way.
Last week, the fire alarm went off after lunch. It was not
raining and everyone 'had to' leave their cubicles, to go down
stairs and stand in the 'safety areas' of the parking lot.
What a shock for many of the geeky engineers (they live in those
cubicles). I could read their body language and knew they were
just too interested in getting this 'thing' over with, so they
could go back to their cubical.
I did not bother to use the opportunity to show them the EV
that they were standing next to. When I was younger, I probably
would have taken the chance, but this company is not the early
years of hp. The timing is not there, and the employee base is
not ripe.
Last Thursday, A huge flume of fuel vapor drifted from the small
oil refinery near this Hi-tech complex. It was sucked into the
air system and all the people in the bldg were literally gassed
with the intense fumes. Employees were told to leave the bldg,
and get fresh air.
But, again the timing was not there to show them my EV. It was
raining, windy and cold. No one went into the parking lot. They
also did not leave work. These dedicated people, stood squeezed
up against the building trying to stay dry.
The air was clean, but the air intake had contaminated the bldg
air. Each time the automatically bldg doors opened, a large out
rush of 'fuel' tainted air came out. Even so there were
engineers that wanted to go back into the bldg to work. Yes it
was a lot of fun.
Last Friday, just before the work day ended, I got a call from
my mgr, asking me to do overtime at the corporate headquarters
in Cupertino.
Cupertino is uphill and just beyond my half way point. I called,
but could not connect to get permission to charge at an EAA
member's home like in the past. I had to tell my Mgr, she was
out of luck, because I did not have enough notice.
That will probably back to haunt/bite me, so I thought of what
other charging I could think of near by. The 16 miles uphill
used 45 ahrs. I would only need a couple hours at 10 amps to
roll my pack discharge enough to get home. A 110 VAC outlet
would be fine.
I had already scoped out the large cement parking structure at
that site. You would think with four levels and it being a
well-to-do company they would put at least one 110 VAC outlet.
Nope.
But they did have a guard walk all the way up to the fourth
floor, tap on my window, and tell me to leave. Kind of odd to
have a guard chase the guard away.
I did see an outlet at the receiving dock, but I need to check
if it is on. If it is, then I would need permission to use it.
Four hours at 10 amps at $.17 pkwhr (4 * 10 * 110 * .001 * .17
= ) $.75 It would cost them less than a buck to let me plug in.
...
This weekend I completed the rebuilding of three PCs. My EAA
chapter takes donated junker PCs, and rebuilds sell-able PCs
out of them. Its $200 worth of effort for only a few dollars
into the chapter Treasury, but it works.
On Sunday, I went over to the EAA members house behind the
Corporate office, to deliver these PCs. He will get with the
buyers I round up and sell them.
During the time I was over at his house I was plugged in. He
bought a nice 12 gauge extension cord, and my PFC was happy to
pull 10 amps. I delivered the rebuilt PCs and took the donor
dead PCs he had for me to work on at home.
Afterward, we went over to the Corporate offices and checked
out the outlet on the loading dock. Nope, it was off.
I have found, getting outlets turned back on it tough to do.
When they used that breaker's power for something else, they
do not know what breaker that is to turn on, or there is
something wrong and that is why the outlet is off.
So, suggesting that they get that outlet turned on, is not
going to work. Besides, if I have more of the weekend to
myself, I can spend more time earning money for my EAA chapter.
My trip home was nice, but I am looking forward to spending my
coming paychecks. I need to spend some money on the EV. Time
to do some maintenance on the brakes, pads, rotors, and
bearings.
Working on the developing rust spots is next. An older
conversion does need maintenance. But my DMV registration fee
is quite small. As soon as I get my new registration, I have
to send a copy to Sacramento.
It seems to continue my registration of the little Sacramento
EV parking sticker (the one that looks like a turtle), each year
I have to prove to Sacramento, I am not a deadbeat EV.
=====
' ____
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'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
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