EV Digest 3389
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Could this have made my controller blow up?
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Look at my plan for my ev and give me input
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Look at my plan for my ev and give me input
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Looking for information about BMS's
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Look at my plan for my ev and give me input
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Look at my plan
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) z1k cooling
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: z1k cooling
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: z1k cooling
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Motor properties
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Zinc fuel cells
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Your software
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) RE: Zinc fuel cells
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: z1k cooling
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Look at my plan
by "brian G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Look at my plan
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: z1k cooling
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV transport, gas taxes Re: Gas prices Trakkin' the Thread
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: E-tractor mower -which motor(s)?
by JCT <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: z1k cooling
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello, I'm Jamie Marshall. I'm new to this group, and I have a quick
question for everyone out there.
I have a Corbin Sparrow that had a prototype version of their Kilovac
controller. They eventually made a "production" version of this
controller with one enclosure for logic, power and reversing contactors.
A short while ago, the 4 power transistors shorted out for no apparent
reason. (a new zilla 1k is on the way)
Last night I was poking through the broken bits to salvage any usable
parts. There was a hall effect sensor on one of the motor cables (or
maybe a battery cable, I should have taken more pictures before
disassembly). I was going to play with it and see if I could use it for
something else, and I found that one of the wires (the output) was not
soldered right, and had broken off.
I don't know that this happened before the controller melted down, or if
it happened as I was removing the broken parts. But it got me to
wondering if this could have been the cause of the meltdown.
Since the controller didn't provide any info to the rest of the car
regarding current levels (e-meter and amp guage are both on shunts), I
figure it must have used this measurement internally. Is it possible
that when the wire broke, the controller couldn't detect any current,
and it burned itself out? I really have no idea how a controller works
on the inside.
This is mostly just learning for me. If it wasn't the sensor, it was
just lousy design. I think I've ruled out any part of my car from
having caused the meltdown.
-Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
For single ratio vehicles over 2000 lbs, a Z2K is a better choice (yes,
and much more expensive). Under 2000 lbs. it really depends on many
issues.
In general, running single ratio on a car requires twice the controller
and twice the motor for normal driving. If you are already planning on
two motors and 2K amps of controller, so it is already way overpowered
in cruise mode and you can drive your batteries to the max at any time,
then there may be benefits to running direct drive. In general, I
suggest keeping the transmission in a DC car. You get more performance
for much less money.
How about an AC drive option then? If you wish (or the transmission
in the donor car is missing, broken or it's automatic) you can
use single gear reduction box which comes integrated with the AC motor
as one unit, like in MES-DEA units:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/mot2.jpg or
http://www.metricmind.com/images/mot4.jpg
Advantage is you don't have to worry about matching motor to
the controller, about adapter plates, shaft couplers and
such. Disadvantage is it's likely more expensive up front,
but to tell for sure you need to factor in the cost of fabricating
these adapter parts, reversing contactors, etc. for a DC system,
and compare.
Just a thought (also for "normal" driving).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Brian,
Another Subaru fan! We have electrified an Impreza. Go to www.ProEV.com and
look at the Electric Imp project. We went direct drive with two AC motors,
one to each diff (front and rear). This lets us keep the 4WD.
> i will be also droping some wieght fromt he car as im making a carbin
fiber
> hood. front fenders. and doors skins . also im replacing the rear and side
> glass with plexi.
Our car is designed for racing so we have stripped the interior to lighten
the car. Do you have experience making carbon fiber parts? It is a great way
to lighten the car but takes a lot of work. I suggest get the car running
first then put it on a carbon diet<G>.
Have fun,
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Frank Tredeau wrote:
> I'm doing research on EVs at UMass Lowell and I need to become an
> expert on EV BMS's. Naturally, this is the best place to get the
> scoop so I'm asking for any and all information about:
Welcome! Good luck on becoming an 'expert'. There's a lot to learn!
> 1) Who makes BMS's. What are the pro's and con's.
You could write a master's thesis on this alone.
Dozens of companies and hundreds of individuals have built BMS's.
Prominent names have included the Badicheq system, and Zivan Smoother
(because they were marketed for many different EVs). Most BMS are
specifically designed for one particular EV (all the auto company EVs
had them), but they were so highly customized than no one else was
interested in them.
> 2) What is the state of the art?
There are two basic types of BMS systems. The first simply monitors
individual battery (or cell) voltages (and sometimes temperatures). If
voltage is too high, it switches a small load resistor across the
battery (typically 0.1 to 2 amps) and/or cuts back charging current. If
voltage is too low, it generates some kind of alarm and/or cuts back the
motor controller to reduce the load. Such systems will keep good
batteries in balance, but not very good at forcing batteries back into
balance (after a long idle period or deep discharge, for example), or
dealing with serious difference between batteries (such as when only a
few batteries are replaced in an older pack).
The second system is more aggressive. It also monitors battery (orcell)
voltages and temperatures, but when corrections are needed, it can
transfer charge between batteries with a DC/DC converter. The balancing
current is generally higher; 2 to 30 amps. This system costs more, but
is better at re-balancing batteries that get far out of balance, from
excessively deep discharges or with packs made with mixed batteries.
Then, there are unusual systems. Some use individual chargers per
battery. Some switch the batteries in series/parallel combinations to
maintain balance.
> What features would you like to see in a BMS that are not there now?
There were so many features I wanted that I build my own BMS.
> Would it make a good research project?
Yes. I'd say that as a rule, the sequence of events is:
1. You build your first EV. You feel a BMS is not needed, so you don't
include one. Your batteries quickly die. Testing and arguments with
the battery manufacturer eventually convince you that a BMS is
necessary.
2. You buy a commercial BMS system. It turns out to be designed for
someone else's EV, and works poorly in your EV. Batteries last
longer, but still fail sooner than you'd like.
3. You design 'version 1' of your own BMS. It works better, but turns
out to have lots of bugs and problems you didn't expect. Battery
life is better when the BMS keeps working, but worse when the BMS
screws up.
4. You finally work out all the bugs, and go into production. Your
batteries are finally lasting longer, but then fail suddenly when
the BMS becomes unable to cope with the mismatches between older
batteries. You find that a more aggressive BMS system is needed,
that can charge/discharge individual batteries at higher currents.
5. You build a 'version 2' of your BMS, which adds features that
proved necessary. Now you have to repeat the debugging process.
In general, no company has been able to continue development this long.
Most systems never do get perfected, or make to market (except has a
half-finished un-debugged product).
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have also thought about converting a Brat - neighbor had one, but he sold
it without telling me. Oh, well...
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2004 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: Look at my plan for my ev and give me input
> Brat, as in Subaru? Hopefully you aren't in snow country, so away from
> the rust problems.
>
> Would the Chevy trany be the same as in S-10 pick-up trucks? If so,
> Canadian EV sells the housing and adapter needed to connect the 9" motor
> (Advanced DC/Netgain) to the trany.
>
> A Zilla 1K with 156 volts of Optimas or Orbitals would fit your budget
> and make a fun car. Actually an 8" motor might be enough. You didn't say
> what range you need... 600 pounds of batteries would do 'round town
> errands but not be the distance winner.
>
>
>
> brian G wrote:
>
> > here is my plan
> >
> > 1978 brat
> > i will be using a toyota or chevy 5speed man trany and making the brat
> > RWD only. (this i can do not a problem)
> >
> > Advanced DC 9in motor (dual shaft)
> > Battires(??) thinking of optimas yellow top) at least 120 volts worth
> > controler (not a clue im putting 1500.00-2000.00 in my budget for that i
> > would like to get the best i can)
> > chargers (yet to be deturmined.)
> >
>
>
>
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Whoa Whoa! Hold up a bit here.
This is possible, but unless the car is very light, a Z1K will not be
enough controller to do direct drive without overheating. Also it
will be slower.
I often drive the 914 on a single Z1K in one gear. Performance is
weak and would get much better if I shifted. Also, it gets too hot
climbing hills.>>
My mistake - I was thinking Z2K and wrote Z1K; anyway, he shouldn't need more
than 2 gears for most conditions, even with a Z1K. But why a heavier tranny -
is it because it fits the footprint of the original 4WD tranny, or is one 8"
motor going to overstress most lightweight trannies?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla manual suggests:
"The controller is set up for water cooling. It can be run with air
cooling in lightweight vehicles when a dry location can be assured. In
general it is better to have water cooling if possible. This will help
promote long term reliability."
So, what's a lightweight vehicle? Basically, I'm just curious what sort of
load would require liquid cooling, if I could change out a 1221C for a
Z1K now, and do liquid cooling when I do more extensive mods later.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Zilla manual suggests:
"The controller is set up for water cooling. It can be run with air
cooling in lightweight vehicles when a dry location can be assured. In
general it is better to have water cooling if possible. This will help
promote long term reliability."
So, what's a lightweight vehicle? Basically, I'm just curious what sort of
load would require liquid cooling, if I could change out a 1221C for a
Z1K now, and do liquid cooling when I do more extensive mods later.
Hi Derrick,
Require is a strong term, and these things are not black and white.
I don't have any nice engineering data to calculate life vs operating
temperature, but I do know that cooler is generally better, at least
down to freezing temps.
I highly recommend water cooling, especially if your car weighs more
than 1000 lbs. My point about lightweight vehicles is that many like
motorcycles can get away without water cooling. The controller will
likely do much more than that, but a controller is a expensive thing,
why risk its' long term life?
The other issue with this is that the controller heat is generated
relative to motor current. (not what your E-Meter is showing you)
This depends on many factors including the type of motor, gear ratio,
car weight, acceleration or slope and driving style. It varies a lot.
This makes it hard to absolutely recommend what is required for any
particular car.
As with many parts of a EV, you have to design it for the particular
vehicle and situation. This can be done but in the end I find it's
much easier to overcool it than to try to quantify the heat generated
and the possible effect that will have on controller lifetime.
I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think
controller cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
That reminds me, I need to add something that indicates when the
controller is getting hot. Maybe make the Hairball flash the check
engine light or something like that. Now if I could just get people
to actually hook up the check engine light. :-)
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com
Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
>
> >The Zilla manual suggests:
> >"The controller is set up for water cooling. It can be run with air
> >cooling in lightweight vehicles when a dry location can be assured. In
> >general it is better to have water cooling if possible. This will help
> >promote long term reliability."
> >
> >So, what's a lightweight vehicle? Basically, I'm just curious what sort of
> >load would require liquid cooling, if I could change out a 1221C for a
> >Z1K now, and do liquid cooling when I do more extensive mods later.
>
> Hi Derrick,
>
> Require is a strong term, and these things are not black and white.
>
> I don't have any nice engineering data to calculate life vs operating
> temperature, but I do know that cooler is generally better, at least
> down to freezing temps.
>
> I highly recommend water cooling, especially if your car weighs more
> than 1000 lbs. My point about lightweight vehicles is that many like
> motorcycles can get away without water cooling. The controller will
> likely do much more than that, but a controller is a expensive thing,
> why risk its' long term life?
>
> The other issue with this is that the controller heat is generated
> relative to motor current. (not what your E-Meter is showing you)
> This depends on many factors including the type of motor, gear ratio,
> car weight, acceleration or slope and driving style. It varies a lot.
> This makes it hard to absolutely recommend what is required for any
> particular car.
>
> As with many parts of a EV, you have to design it for the particular
> vehicle and situation. This can be done but in the end I find it's
> much easier to overcool it than to try to quantify the heat generated
> and the possible effect that will have on controller lifetime.
>
> I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
> absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think
> controller cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
>
> That reminds me, I need to add something that indicates when the
> controller is getting hot. Maybe make the Hairball flash the check
> engine light or something like that. Now if I could just get people
> to actually hook up the check engine light. :-)
>
> Have fun!
> --
> -Otmar-
> http://www.CafeElectric.com
> Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Geez Ot, us folks from the air cooled world had the flahsing Red led in
mind before we even built stuff !!!!
You also need a error code stored if over temp cut back is ever tagged.
This lets us look it as to how often we were Stupid with your
controllers. Or it lets you do that once we fry them.
Take it from one who LIKES to boil water!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Andre Blanchard wrote:
> I am finding a lot of references to variable reluctance generators.
> Even solenoids generate back emf.
I agree. Variable reluctance motors (and solenoids) both generate back
emf, just like motors. But like an induction motor, there is no obvious
source of field power (no field magnets or windings).
The field is the rotating part. The field is powered from the stator
windings, just like an induction motor.
Otmar wrote:
> Advantages are high efficiency, low mass and very high rpm (due
> to no BEMF). Disadvantages are high mechanical noise, expensive
> electronics and very difficult to design well.
This is all marketing hype, Otmar. Just try to find a real switched
reluctance motor that can't be beaten on all these points by
conventional motors.
The *real* advantage of switched relucatance motors is that they can be
made cheaply. But the price you pay for cheap is to have one of the
worst running, lowest efficiency motors you can get.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> Have anyone successfully run a PFC series charger on a
> 12Vdc to 110Vac inverter?
Ouch! Rich will of course have to answer this one, but I can tell you
that it will be hard to make it work right. The PFC chargers use IC
chips that are optimized to convert *sinewave* input into DC output.
They typically have a lowpass filter that only works for inputs with no
frequency components above about 400 Hz. The 'modified sine wave' is
actually a square wave with some dead tim; it has frequency components
many times higher than this!
> Rich gave me some suggestions, but I just want to know if others
> have a "cheaper" solution. I am using a cheap 600W modified sine
> wave inverter.
You can use a simple LC filter to block out some of the high frequency
harmonics.
You could not use the PFC at all; depending on your EV's charging
voltage, a 'bad boy' charger could be easier. Efficiency is good, but
the poor power factor would slow your charging rate.
You could have Rich defeat the PFC control in his charger. But I don't
know his circuit; he might be depending on features of the PFC chip so
it can't be defeated.
You could tap the high voltage DC from the Prius, and use it to drive
the PFC directly. This would actually be the most efficient method. But
you would have a non-isolated output, which would be dangerous unless
very well protected!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend passed these links on to me.
http://www.metallicpower.com/
http://www.powerzinc.com/
"This technology holds the promise of delivering as much as five times
the energy at the same weight of lead-acid batteries. As a result, such
a vehicle could ultimately provide two to three times the range
capability of a typical battery-powered electric vehicle. Once
consumed, the zinc-oxide by-product of this electrochemical process can
easily be regenerated back into fresh zinc fuel in a regeneration
system."
Sounds interesting!
-Ryan
--
Need EV Resources? Visit http://www.evsource.com
<http://www.interwebber.com/redirects/evsource/index.html?id=4487643>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
------------------ Virus Warning Message (on castor)
Found virus WORM_NETSKY.D in file application.pif
The file is deleted.
---------------------------------------------------------
Here is the file.
------------------ Virus Warning Message (on castor)
application.pif is removed from here because it contains a virus.
---------------------------------------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These hae been talked about for a long time, reading an article about these
in an old Pop-Sci was one of the things that got me into electric vehicles
in the first place. The idea is sound and I like it IFF the hardware to
recombine the fuel can be purchased economicly and run at home. Otherwise,
you have all the same problems of infrastructure we have now with the
"hydrogen economy" movement.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
The superior man is distressed by the limitation of his ability; he is not
distressed by the fact that men do not recognize the ability he has. -
Confucius
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:42 AM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Subject: Zinc fuel cells
>
>
> A friend passed these links on to me.
>
> http://www.metallicpower.com/
> http://www.powerzinc.com/
>
>
> "This technology holds the promise of delivering as much as five times
> the energy at the same weight of lead-acid batteries. As a
> result, such
> a vehicle could ultimately provide two to three times the range
> capability of a typical battery-powered electric vehicle. Once
> consumed, the zinc-oxide by-product of this electrochemical
> process can
> easily be regenerated back into fresh zinc fuel in a regeneration
> system."
>
> Sounds interesting!
>
> -Ryan
> --
> Need EV Resources? Visit http://www.evsource.com
> <http://www.interwebber.com/redirects/evsource/index.html?id=4487643>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all
I've had the zilla in my Mazda truck 4200lbs for a few weeks now , With 10
feet of plastic hose and if it was a person , I'd say they were dead. I feel
very little heat from this thing. The battery amps are set at 500 to save
the batteries . I took my old gas smelling bud ,Nate for a ride the other
day , ran through 25 ah pretty quick still everything cool , I have never
felt it go into thermal cut back .
> >
> > I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
> > absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think
> > controller cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
At about what temp will the thermal cut back come on ?
> > That reminds me, I need to add something that indicates when the
> > controller is getting hot. Maybe make the Hairball flash the check
> > engine light or something like that. Now if I could just get people
> > to actually hook up the check engine light. :-)
> >
If your looking for stuff to add , how about a switch for two power
setting , so one could easy reset the battery amps to a lower pre set value
, so if your kids or friends want to use the your ev you just flick the
hidden switch (or what ever) and not worry about them killing the batteries.
Even though there doesn't seem to be a heat problem , I'm thinking about
combo Hood ornament water cooler. My idea is to find something I like the
shape of ( eagle with wings spread ) and make a aluminum casting of it with
a piece of copper pipe inside .
Steve Clunn
> > Have fun!
> > --
> > -Otmar-
> > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
> Geez Ot, us folks from the air cooled world had the flahsing Red led in
> mind before we even built stuff !!!!
>
> You also need a error code stored if over temp cut back is ever tagged.
> This lets us look it as to how often we were Stupid with your
> controllers. Or it lets you do that once we fry them.
>
> Take it from one who LIKES to boil water!!
>
>
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i guess my trany choice is because ive seen alot of s10s in the photo album
and they are easy to find also adapter parts are around, i guess any rwd
trany would work the lighter the better i just dont know of very many small
tranys that are rwd.
4wd would be cool to keep but it would hurt perfomance alot. so for my first
its going bye bye
as for ac. well i think i can probably dump 10k in this project total not 1
penny more. so AC is out.
as for running direct drive im not going to do that as i would like a trany.
since i will auto cross the car a bit just for kicks. (this is not its
purpose so i will not build it to be an auto crosser only.)
from the responses would i be correct is saying that Zilla controlers are
the best out there right now for DC drive comuter vehicles that still want
performance and reliability?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Look at my plan
Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2004 19:59:34 -0800
<<Whoa Whoa! Hold up a bit here.
This is possible, but unless the car is very light, a Z1K will not be
enough controller to do direct drive without overheating. Also it
will be slower.
I often drive the 914 on a single Z1K in one gear. Performance is
weak and would get much better if I shifted. Also, it gets too hot
climbing hills.>>
My mistake - I was thinking Z2K and wrote Z1K; anyway, he shouldn't need
more
than 2 gears for most conditions, even with a Z1K. But why a heavier tranny
-
is it because it fits the footprint of the original 4WD tranny, or is one
8"
motor going to overstress most lightweight trannies?
_________________________________________________________________
Fast. Reliable. Get MSN 9 Dial-up - 3 months for the price of 1!
(Limited-time Offer) http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Edward Ang wrote:
> > Have anyone successfully run a PFC series charger
> on a
> > 12Vdc to 110Vac inverter?
>
> Ouch! Rich will of course have to answer this one,
> but I can tell you
> that it will be hard to make it work right. The PFC
> chargers use IC
> chips that are optimized to convert *sinewave* input
> into DC output.
> They typically have a lowpass filter that only works
> for inputs with no
> frequency components above about 400 Hz. The
> 'modified sine wave' is
> actually a square wave with some dead tim; it has
> frequency components
> many times higher than this!
I realized this after looking at the current waveform.
It was extremely spiky. I think the PFC circuit is
getting rather confused.
>
> > Rich gave me some suggestions, but I just want to
> know if others
> > have a "cheaper" solution. I am using a cheap 600W
> modified sine
> > wave inverter.
>
> You can use a simple LC filter to block out some of
> the high frequency
> harmonics.
It would not be easy to find such a big inductor. I
rewound a small blown transformer with about 40 turns
of wire. Putting this in series with the charger did
help a little. I further put a 12V bulb in parallel
with this inductor. And, I was able to put about 340W
into the pack. But, if I turned it any higher, the
charger would shutdown again.
According to Rich, it is the 15V supply that is
complaining about this. May be the current spikes are
causing the 15V to drop?
>
> You could not use the PFC at all; depending on your
> EV's charging
> voltage, a 'bad boy' charger could be easier.
> Efficiency is good, but
> the poor power factor would slow your charging rate.
I was going to try putting a bridge rectifier with a
cap. This would essentially make it a DC input to the
charger. Or, I could just open up the inverter and
tap its 160Vdc output. There are just too many other
things to try.
The next thing I am gonna try is a auto-transformer
with a 16/32V secondary. I am hoping that the
inductance in the transformer helps to reduce current
spikes.
>
> You could have Rich defeat the PFC control in his
> charger. But I don't
> know his circuit; he might be depending on features
> of the PFC chip so
> it can't be defeated.
>
> You could tap the high voltage DC from the Prius,
> and use it to drive
> the PFC directly. This would actually be the most
> efficient method. But
> you would have a non-isolated output, which would be
> dangerous unless
> very well protected!
This was the first thing that Rich suggested. But, I
think this is going to be more problematic than I
wish. The Prius computer might go into error mode
because of "unaccounted current flow". Also, this is
likely to void both my Prius' and the PFC-20's
warranties.
Ed Ang
> --
> Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that
> still can ring
> 814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect
> offering
> Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in
> everything
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light
> gets in -- Leonard
> Cohen
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> from the responses would i be correct is saying that Zilla
> controlers are the best out there right now for DC drive
> comuter vehicles that still want performance and reliability?
Right now I think they are the ONLY thing out there for DC vehicles that
want performance and reliability (for over 96V, anyway).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So the PFC charger needs a stable 15 volt supply to power its brains.
Right now you are going from the Prius's HV pack to its 12 volt battery
to a 120VAC inverter (that makes crappy wave forms) to the PFC which
does something to turn that back into 15 V DC.
How about skipping a few steps and get a small 12 to 15 volt dc/dc?
Actually a 9-18 volt in and 15 volt regulated out dc/dc (<$25). The
power stage(s) of the PFC still have to eat the funky wave forms, but at
least the steering logic would have clean power.
Better yet, do this and open up the inverter and tap its 160Vdc output
to feed the PFC power stage and should get higher efficiency.
And of course listen to Rich as all the above is speculation on my part.
Edward Ang wrote:
According to Rich, it is the 15V supply that is
complaining about this. May be the current spikes are
causing the 15V to drop?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump? Or is the 10' of hose
the radiator?
1sclunn wrote:
Hi all
I've had the zilla in my Mazda truck 4200lbs for a few weeks now , With 10
feet of plastic hose and if it was a person , I'd say they were dead. I feel
very little heat from this thing. The battery amps are set at 500 to save
the batteries . I took my old gas smelling bud ,Nate for a ride the other
day , ran through 25 ah pretty quick still everything cool , I have never
felt it go into thermal cut back .
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jerry an' All;
----- Original Message -----
From: jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Hi Bob and All,
> With gas at $36/ bbl now and seems up with a
> bullet our best bet to save cash, national security,
> change our infastructure, create jobs is to put a $1/
> gal tax on oil over 1 yr.
Good start, but could you trust our lyin' bunch in DC to actually set
aside that cash for something constructive. I mean look what's happening to
Social Security.Maybe after the regeme change in Nov?See below.
> With the price going to be about $3 gal next
> yr if we don't, it is a strange but good choice that
> costs much less in both the medium and long run.
> A $1/gal tax good???? Yes and the reason is
> once the tax is set the price of oil will drop back to
> $20/ bbl or less so while our gas price goes to about
> $2 gal with the tax, most of the money stays here for
> infastruture changes, fuel cost relief, R+D RE fuels,
> ect all creating US jobs rather than support OPEC.
> In fact it would starve Wahhabi, other terrorist
> for funds greatly by starving their patrons in OPEC
> countries. OPEC is as addicted to oil $ as we are to
> their oil. Cut their money supply 20% and it would
> really hurt them. That's why I only have an EV
> anymore.
But as comsumption goes down, prices will go up, to fill the " Gap" in
incom, sorta like OR's tax on EV's because of the states loss of income on
non gas buying EV's.
> Also the middle east region is going to
> expolde soon so we need to be off the oil habit before
> that.
You got THAT right.
> And the best way to do this is with EV
> personal, commerical transport as most electricity
> comes from US sources and electricity is a good medium
> to use future RE power.
Many new coal plants are being built or in the planning stage. Many more
than good old fashioned wind farms. Here in New England we have lottsa
mountains. like Mt Washington, in New Hampshire, one of the windiest places
anywhere. Why arent some windmills up there to supply Boston, just for
starters? The Andrea Doria Liner is sunk off the NE coast. Divers say the
currents are very intense, not for beginners, so whythehell not drop some
underwater turbines out there to crank out some current current.? With that
gas tax buck were talking about. In OR how about that Columbia Gorge where
the people windsurf in the river. If you havent seen these guyz go? It's
awesome! Just because you already have lavish hydro electric power,
shouldn't be any excuse<g>!
> But the EV trains like yours , the french,
> japanese are too expensive and/or slow. noisy. As fuel
> for airlines will drive air prices up out of reach, we
> really need good inexpensive 300mph+ trains to take
> airplane's place.
I wouldn't call the TGF or Bullet noisy or slow! You have them mixed up
with our museum era stuff. The Bullet zings by almost silently, if ya blink
ya miss it! I made a trip to Japan to meet them in my Army daze 40 years ago
when it first opened. I wanted to see what it's like to have a train pass
you@ 125 mph.Awesome! But not dramiticly loud! All those trains have gone to
RR museums today, they are working on a TGF speed several generation's newer
trainsets. The Bullet has a perfect safety record for it's travelers,
although it is a stylish mode of suicide over there, in that culture. Guess
it is quicker, than, say PDX's Max!
> The only way I see it is by using ground
> effect trains, like hovercraft, would cut track,
> energy, maintance costs, train weight, costs while
> possibly going 350/400 mph. This cuts noise greatly
> too. Air is a great cushion, lube!!
Before being carried off in clouds of contentment over Mag Levs, a few
things would be considered. The "track" MUST be perfect! and expensively
streight! To be able to go that fast, much faster than a Bullet or TGV, so
yur looking at a hidiously expensive track structure. Not easy to build
switches and crossovers, something conventional RR's use all the time, easy
to do.That air is a nice cushion, but bought and paid for with big bucks
energy wise. A good thing for the conventional train is that it can coast
for MILES, my trak record-13 miles when the power died! So I rolled along,
made a Dead Stick landing at Stamford to do my station work I think a mag
lev drops down on it's wheels when the power goes off, something that
happens in the Real World. So it is a tad like an Airplane, it takes power
to keep it up, as well as make it go. A train holds itself up quite nicely,
just hafta turn the wheels, preferably with electric power, although you can
get decent seat miles per gal with a Diseasel train @ 2 gal per mile that
our F and GP-40's get times the filled seats, say 800 or so, not counting
standees and little old ladies with 300 lbs suitcases. Whats a few hundred
people aboard , among friends? I DO notice if a passenger train is full or
empty in it's handling on the road, though.These above Diesels happily
cruise at 100 MPH all day IF you can find any track good for that, beyond a
few miles in MA and RI! Been there, done that.
> I also see special delivery trucks that can
> link into trains on slower hovertracks, recharge in
> trip and a new driver picks it up at the station and
> drives it to it's route on batt power..
Or more terminals like that exist for, say supermarket chains. Stop and
Shop's North Haven distrubution centre come to mind. they get Boxcarloads of
goodies, in all the time, it's trucked out to the stores. A battery run
truck could do that now.
> The same could be done on highways using
> electric supply rails with a driver in the lead truck.
Put a wire mesh above the hiway, and bumper car like trolley poles on
EVerything. And a conductive strip down the middle of the road. That would
cut down on silly lane changing, too?! And charge things so you could switch
over to batteries on the secondary roads, as ya blend in with the NEV guyz!
> Could be done for EV cars too. Sit back and
> read a book and leave the long distance driving to
> them!!!
Or giant slot cars!
> So Bob, your job is safe!!!, In fact I'd
> expect train drivers to be a growth industry in a
> couple of yrs.Yes, it is, understand the UP RR will pay a bonus to hire
out with them.
Because they can't move the RR to China or Mexico to pay them 28 cents a
day to run it. I make a decent wage, and spend it locally in the economy
where I live, a novel concept!Can buy EV parts as needed<g>!
> I think Gov Bush has finially given up fighting
> our new fast train across Fla which Fla voted for as a
> constitutsional admendment since the Fla Legislature
> wouldn't do it.
Finally! Yes! Get rid of THAT Bush, too! When the time comes. Fla,
flat as a tabletop, would be ideal Bullet Train Countrry. I'm sure
Bombardier would be glad to build ya some 200 mph plus Acelas, but yu
couldn't call them that, that's Amtrak's patented name.Hitting an alegater
or Armadillo would be pretty spactacular at warp speed, though! At one time,
long ago, you could take a train to Key West, even! Train used to go from
NYC to Key West, boated across the Florida whatever, to Cuba and Havana, on
the Cuban RR, train was called the Havana Limited. The train, and name
lingered on into the 60's, but didn't go all the way, since the line was
broken in a Great hurricane,in the 30's, and never replaced. The RR folks
said the hell with it and sold what survived tio the highwaymen, it served,
repaired, as the Key West Hiway for years!Out of History mode.
> It could put hi speed EV chargers along
> freeways, subisdize EV's, Alt fuel vehicles, all
> creating jobs, making our economy better at little
> extra cost, less than it would cost if left as it is.
> Maybe even get a tax break,:-), but whatever
> it is it doesn't bother me as I drive EV!!!
And we could plug in, as we HAVE the cars, now, IF we could get the @#$%
PLUG thing standardized! I vote for Standard OUTLETS found in better homes
EVerywhere, and maybe the new 4 prong 240 jobs ya see at Home Despot and
True Value!for faster charging and Anderson Amtrak like , every coach has 8,
600plus amp jobs for dump charging. All Off the shelf stuff!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jim Phillips:
That is about what I have (see the album, #411 I think). Except mine
is AC induction but shouldn't make much difference.
JCT>>>No. Mine is longer with more space between front and back
wheels and more space under the seat. At least that's what I can
conclude from your picture.
------
My plan is to transfer the 4 batt (48V) and 275A 48V controller from
my e-Skidoo to the e-tractor for the summer and back to e-skidoo for
the winter.
My initial idea would be to use a 1HP PM motor and a switch for the
deck (2 blades) and a 1HP PM or series wound with the controller for
the traction.
Sounds good to me. I have a 2 HP for traction, and it is plenty for
towing cars :-) I still haven't gotten the mower to work, around 2/3
HP is too small! I think the V-belts are very inefficient (I have
three blades) Took years to even figure out where to put a bigger
motor. How are you going to do it? I don't have the vertical
distance between the ground and (unfortunately) the steering tie rod.
JCT>>>I will probably (I am still in thinking mode :-)put the
traction motor at the back or under the seat depending on the motor's
dimensions. That will let me the place where the ICE was to install
the motor for the blades. Again, depending on the dimension, I could
also probably fit it in front of the foot rest ouside of the frame.
That will be a motor vs battery' space combat.
---------
Jim Phillips
===============
JCT>>>By the way, thanks to Lonnie Borntreger and yourself for answering.
The greatest feeling that I had when I converted my skidoo to E-power
was not installing electric components, it was removing all that
greasy, clunky, shaking, rattling & smoking stuff. I really hope to
do the same with the mower. The more I remove the better I feel :-)
Sadly, I do not think that I will be able to fit 2 motors inline with
the shaft of each 2 blades.
I wonder if anyone has ever transfered the deck from between the
wheels to in front of the front wheels and the work that was involved
if it has been done...
JCT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Would keeping the original ICE temp sensor and putting it on the
controller cooling loop show anything of use? Or are the temperature
ranges too different? Assuming the vehicle has a temp gage on the dash
rather than just an idiot light.
And what was that about freezing temps? Do those of us with cold winters
(like below zero on occasion) need to do something?
Otmar wrote:
I don't have any nice engineering data to calculate life vs operating
temperature, but I do know that cooler is generally better, at least
down to freezing temps.
...
I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think controller
cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
That reminds me, I need to add something that indicates when the
controller is getting hot. Maybe make the Hairball flash the check
engine light or something like that. Now if I could just get people to
actually hook up the check engine light. :-)
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
