EV Digest 3390
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Raptor & diodes
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) NESEA Green Car Events ...
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: first charge on NiMH cells
by Dermot Dobson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Zinc fuel cells
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: z1k cooling
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zinc fuel cells
by Michael Hurley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: z1k cooling
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Solectria Force with low miles available.
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zinc fuel cells
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) T-Rex 1000 for sale
by Seth Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: z1k cooling
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: first charge on NiMH cells
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Regulators and stray batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Dynasty shed battery mystery solved...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zinc fuel cells
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Your product
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: first charge on NiMH cells
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Dynasty shed battery mystery solved...
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: z1k cooling
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: z1k cooling
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Raptor & diodes
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Jim Coate asked a great question about beefing up the back-end of a
600 Raptor so that if something broke, it would not be the diodes that
broke first. Two possibilities exist. One is to add diodes in parallel
with the present. To get them to share the current equally, they must
be positioned to receive the current pulse at the same time and with
a good degree of balance in the current paths. This almost dictates
mounting them along side the present diodes.
Second possibility is to replace the present diodes in some part of
their function or in the total function. Total function involves
removing the present diodes and replacing with higher current, higher
reverse breakdown voltage, and faster response diodes that fit in the
same spaces. Partial function replacement may involve mounting a new,
massive, fast diode stack at the motor to take care of the motor cur-
rent collapse. Diodes in the controller could then take care of the
current collapse in lead inductance.
How do others see the possibility of beefing up the controller.
Rhett
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--- Begin Message ---
Green Car events sponosred by NESEA,
the NorthEast Sustainable Energy Association
Saturday, April 1, 2004, 10am-2pm
Spring Break 2004
Boyertown, PA
Join other green car owners and enthusiasts in southeastern Pennsylvania on
Saturday, April 10 for an exciting day of activities planned just for members
of NESEA's Green Car Club! This is the inaugural rally for NESEA's Green Car
Club - featuring test-drives, lunch, and a Tour of Boyertown Museum of Historic
Vehicles - it's a must-attend event! For more information and registration
visit
www.GreenCarClub.org
Saturday, May 22, 2004, 11am-4pm
NESEA's Green Car Club Rally at the Tour de Sol
City of Burlington, NJ
Join other green car owners and enthusiasts in central New Jersey on Saturday,
May 22 for an exciting day at the Tour de Sol and the "Burlington Day" festival
in the City of Burlington. Meet fellow green car owners, talk with some of the
thousands of people attending the festival about why you chose a green car,
visit the food court, craft and antique dealers, or take a trolley bus for a
tour of historic Boyertown. For more information and registration visit
www.GreenCarClub.org
May 22-25, 2004
The 16th annual Tour de Sol:
The Great American Green Transportation Festival and Competition
Events in three communities:
"Burlington Day" festival in City of Burlington, NJ Saturday, May 22
Street fair in downtown Trenton, NJ Monday, May 24
Grand Finale in New York City's lower Manhattan Tuesday, May 25
See and try out advanced vehicles for the 21st Century at a fun free festival.
Over 50 exhibits from bicycles to buses and more. Visit with vehicle
manufacturers and owners and exhibitors. Talk with hundreds of students and
visionaries about their one-of-a-kind Earth-friendly vehicles in the Tour de
Sol Competition that are fun to drive and can reduce global climate change and
our dependence on oil. For more information
www.TourdeSol.org
June 13, 2004
Junior Solar Sprint Northeast Championship
Walter Vincent Smith Museum courtyard, Springfield, MA
Come watch over 200 middle school students from across the Northeast compete
with their model solar cars for the Northeast Championship. Cars will be
judged for Speed, Innovation, Craftsmanship, and Technical Merit. Free. Food
vendor on site. For more information
www.nesea.org
--
Mike Bianchi
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--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the info Seth.
A: Do you have the datasheet from GP. It is quite good.
yep, got that before picking the cells.
B: Don't deviate unless you know what you are doing, and if you have to ask...
That would be my usual plan, but when I talked to a couple of NiMH
resellers, they mentioned an initial overcharge was a good idea. this is
not, of course, mentioned in the datasheet, hence my question. The idea
that one should ensure that all of the cells are most definitely charged,
by use of a modest overcharge, does sound reasonable at first sight, but
lacking any specific guidance, I'm tempted to just charge to full at the 14
hour rate and then trickle charge another, say, 25%.
C: At the 1 hour rate, expect 10-11Ah for 100% DOD
OK, that's a useful figure - I currently get close to 100% DOD (but
Heinzmann do have a low voltage cut off) on my 4AH NiCd pack quite
frequently which was the reason for the upgrade.
D: for best life, try to discharge to less than 80%
That should be OK - I don't think I'll ever need any more than twice the
energy expended, compared to my original pack.
E: Vent the container when charging/ discharging. They get hot. And use a fan.
Is the heating much of a problem if I charge at no more than 1.3A? In my
application, I'd almost never need fast charge and presumably slower
charging is good for pack life.
For the first charge, peak charge them. I don't like peak charging, it
feels a little like Russian Roulette. But you will defintely know when
dV/dt falls off. (and when dT/dt climbs) I suspect for that cell, you can
peak charge at C/2, but follow the datasheet.
You need all 3 protections for charging these: timer, dV/dt and Dt/dt or
elese you will set something on fire. Charge termination detection will be
trickier as the rate drops.Take it from someone who has charged a LOT of
higher spiral wound NiMH. You can't play the same tricks with D and F
cells you can with the smaller cells, like Sub C and below.
Again, if I limit to slow charge, is this still the case, or is just one of
them (plus a watchdog timer) sufficient? I've not found much useful info
around for smart chargers that go up to 36V - plenty of 12V and occasional
24V circuits, but i'd rather not have several independent chargers unless I
need to.
dermot
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--- Begin Message ---
--- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> in the first place. The idea is sound and I like it IFF the hardware
> to
> recombine the fuel can be purchased economicly and run at home.
> Otherwise,
> you have all the same problems of infrastructure we have now with the
> "hydrogen economy" movement.
Yeah it's interesting to compare with "information products"...
everybody is coming around to the idea that information can be set free
from the bounds of physical media... an example being downloading MP3's
instead of buying CDs. (Let's assume the debates about how the artists
are to get paid get resolved constructively, so that downloading isn't
stealing.) Instead of paying all the time for trucks to deliver CD's
from a factory to the store and then to you, we've paid once for a
flexible, reusable infrastructure to transport information of all
kinds; and once it's paid for, distribution costs almost nothing, and
you only have to pay for production. It seems to me completely
parallel that the electrical grid is the more "virtualized" energy
distribution system, and thus will always be superior to distribution
systems which depend on providing transportation for physical storage
media like hydrogen or zinc. Now, distributed power generation is
another thing... sunshine and wind are already being spread out across
the land, nothing we can do about that... so harnessing them in a
distributed fashion makes sense, and distributed systems are superior
to centralized systems due to redundancy and immunity to system-wide
failure. So after the virtual, but centralized, grid distribution
system, that would be the next step; but passing gas or liquids around
in pipelines or tankers is definitely a step backwards. The only
advantage being that refueling time can be cut down, because it's
faster to pump something into a tank than to recharge a battery... but
at what cost? Which is why I'm saying if EVs are to achieve
mass-market viability, fast-charging is the most important development
that needs to happen.
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:47 AM -0500 3-4-04, 1sclunn wrote:
Hi all
I've had the zilla in my Mazda truck 4200lbs for a few weeks now , With 10
feet of plastic hose and if it was a person , I'd say they were dead. I feel
very little heat from this thing. The battery amps are set at 500 to save
the batteries . I took my old gas smelling bud ,Nate for a ride the other
day , ran through 25 ah pretty quick still everything cool , I have never
felt it go into thermal cut back .
I'm glad it's working well for you.
Unless you changed it, the motor amps shipped at 650, so it's just
loafing. Do you have a PC hooked up to it yet? I highly recommend
having a way to play with the settings.
> > I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
> absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think
> controller cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
At about what temp will the thermal cut back come on ?
55 degrees C inside on the heatsink it starts. It's pretty gradual to
80 degrees C, then much stronger to zero current at 100 degrees C.
If your looking for stuff to add , how about a switch for two power
setting , so one could easy reset the battery amps to a lower pre set value
, so if your kids or friends want to use the your ev you just flick the
hidden switch (or what ever) and not worry about them killing the batteries.
You already have that. It's called Valet mode, and all Hairballs with
V1.13 code and later have it. Or did you not get the addendum to the
manual with yours?
It should have been right after the wiring diagrams in the envelope
that had the manual in it. I'm sure you read the manual cover to
cover, right? :-)
You can also have another set of motor settings for reverse, and you
can use your parallel input for yet another set. How many modes do
you want? :-)
Even though there doesn't seem to be a heat problem , I'm thinking about
combo Hood ornament water cooler. My idea is to find something I like the
shape of ( eagle with wings spread ) and make a aluminum casting of it with
a piece of copper pipe inside .
Sounds like fun!
At 11:30 AM -0500 3-4-04, Jim Coate wrote:
Would keeping the original ICE temp sensor and putting it on the
controller cooling loop show anything of use?
No.
Or are the temperature ranges too different?
Yes, the controller needs to run much cooler. I suggest keeping it
within 5 degrees C of ambient air, especially in hot climates.
And what was that about freezing temps? Do those of us with cold
winters (like below zero on occasion) need to do something?
No, just make sure your antifreeze is rated for your temperatures.
Have fun,
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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--- Begin Message ---
On Mar 4, 2004, at 7:41 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
"This technology holds the promise of delivering as much as five times
the energy at the same weight of lead-acid batteries. As a result, such
a vehicle could ultimately provide two to three times the range
capability of a typical battery-powered electric vehicle. Once
consumed, the zinc-oxide by-product of this electrochemical process can
easily be regenerated back into fresh zinc fuel in a regeneration
system."
Been keeping an eye on Metallic Power for about 3 years now. I really
like the granulated zinc/potassium hydroxide slurry system they've
created. I'm hoping in the next 5 - 10 years they have a workable
vehicular system. I know they've adapted a Solectria Force to run off
(I think) 4 of their stationary units hacked together. This is the
system I'm interested in possibly putting in the three-wheeler I was
designing a few years back.
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim,
My 1500 lbs 168v Sparrow has a Z1K with a 20" two-pass radiator mounted just
in front of the motor, so it get airflow. The pump is a submersible aquarium
pump in a 1L windex refill bottle. Since it's a 110vac pump, I have a 100w
inverter mounted behind the controller. Everything fits into the tight
Sparrow controller compartment, with room to spare.
-Ed Thorpe
From: Jim Coate
How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump? Or is the 10' of hose
the radiator?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Will:
Can I get a little more info on the Geo Metro?
Thanks, Bob Siebert
On Wednesday, March 3, 2004, at 10:30 AM, Will Beckett wrote:
If anyone has an interest in a Solectria Force, four door Metro
conversion
by Solectria, with low miles and a burgundy red in color, there is one
available in Sacramento for $13K that has very low miles and is in
excellent
condition. Contact me if you are interested.
-Will
Will Beckett
Beckett PC Solutions
4189 Baker Ave.
Palo Alto, CA 94306-3908
(650) 269-7011 cell
(650) 494-6922 phone/fax
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://beckettpcsolutions.com
"Let me make it easy for you!"
a Business Network Int'l member http://www.paloaltobni.com
a member of the Palo Alto Chamber of Commerce
http://www.paloaltochamber.com
Support the arts, subscribe to West Bay Opera http://www.wbopera.org
"As far as I know, no one who is technically literate is an
enthusiastic supporter of fuel-cell-powered vehicles," said Donald R.
Sadoway, professor of materials engineering and faculty fellow at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a nationally recognized
battery expert.
"I doubt I will ever see a hydrogen car for personal consumption in a
showroom. I said this years ago and see no reason to change my mind:�
The family-owned, garaged vehicle is the last vehicle that's going to
get a fuel cell. " -- Geoffrey Ballard.
"Hydrogen cars are a poor short-term strategy, and it's not even clear
that they are a good idea in the long term," Alexander Farrell,
assistant professor of energy and resources at the University of
California, Berkeley.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The zinc air system shows promise --- just the fact that is is still
around is encouraging. It does suffer from the lack of infrastructure
issue; perhaps a home-sized (or fleet sized) regenerator is the way to
go at first.
I wonder why they call it a fuel cell instead of a battery. Marketing?
/Bob
On Thursday, March 4, 2004, at 10:30 AM, Michael Hurley wrote:
On Mar 4, 2004, at 7:41 AM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
"This technology holds the promise of delivering as much as five times
the energy at the same weight of lead-acid batteries. As a result,
such
a vehicle could ultimately provide two to three times the range
capability of a typical battery-powered electric vehicle. Once
consumed, the zinc-oxide by-product of this electrochemical process
can
easily be regenerated back into fresh zinc fuel in a regeneration
system."
Been keeping an eye on Metallic Power for about 3 years now. I really
like the granulated zinc/potassium hydroxide slurry system they've
created. I'm hoping in the next 5 - 10 years they have a workable
vehicular system. I know they've adapted a Solectria Force to run off
(I think) 4 of their stationary units hacked together. This is the
system I'm interested in possibly putting in the three-wheeler I was
designing a few years back.
_________________________________________________
Michael Hurley Digital Print Specialist
AlphaGraphics, Inc. (901) 681-9909
1195 Ridgeway Rd. (901) 761-2139 FAX
Memphis, TN 38119 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
"As far as I know, no one who is technically literate is an
enthusiastic supporter of fuel-cell-powered vehicles," said Donald R.
Sadoway, professor of materials engineering and faculty fellow at the
Massachusetts Institute of Technology, and a nationally recognized
battery expert.
"I doubt I will ever see a hydrogen car for personal consumption in a
showroom. I said this years ago and see no reason to change my mind:�
The family-owned, garaged vehicle is the last vehicle that's going to
get a fuel cell. " -- Geoffrey Ballard.
"Hydrogen cars are a poor short-term strategy, and it's not even clear
that they are a good idea in the long term," Alexander Farrell,
assistant professor of energy and resources at the University of
California, Berkeley.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi List,
I have a T-Rex 1000A for sale. Contact me off list for more info.
Seth
--
QUESTION INTERNAL COMBUSTION
'72 Datsun 240Z Conversion
http://users.wpi.edu/~sethm/
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--- Begin Message ---
I'm watching this conversation with interest, as I am preparing to mount
a zilla 1k in my sparrow.
I've decided to try using PC water cooling supplies. I found a 12v
inline water pump made by swiftech (no inverter needed), and I got a
radiator that is about 5x5x2 inches and has a shroud to connect to a
120mm muffin fan. I have it mounted inside the "trunk" of my round-back
sparrow.
I'm using a small (.5 liter?) reseviour made of clear acrylic.
Some hasty and probably inacurate math says that it should disapate all
the heat I will be generating.
BTW, the zilla puts out (1.9 * motor_amps) watts in heat.
I'll post results when I have them.
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 10:43 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: z1k cooling
Jim,
My 1500 lbs 168v Sparrow has a Z1K with a 20" two-pass radiator mounted
just
in front of the motor, so it get airflow. The pump is a submersible
aquarium
pump in a 1L windex refill bottle. Since it's a 110vac pump, I have a
100w
inverter mounted behind the controller. Everything fits into the tight
Sparrow controller compartment, with room to spare.
-Ed Thorpe
From: Jim Coate
How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump? Or is the 10' of hose
the radiator?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dermot Dobson wrote:
> My pack of GP NiMH cells arrived today for my e-bike - 30x GP1300FH
> giving me a pack of 36V at 13.5AH
>
> I gather that the Peukart curve is not as good for NiMH as for NiCd,
Peukert only applies to lead-acid batteries.
> given that I'm changing from a 4AH NiCd pack to a 13.5AH NiMH pack -
> pulling around 10A most of the time, will I see an improvement in range
> much different to the simple ratio of the respective capacities?
No. You'll be loading the cells lightly enough that you should get
essentially their full amphour capacity.
> Are there some precautions I should take on the first charge? I seem
> to remember that one should do a significant overcharge the first
> time around to ensure that all the cells are definitely at full
> capacity to avoid one or more cells being reverse-volted during
> discharge.
Nimh do not tolerate overcharge nearly as well as nicad. I concur that
you should follow the manufacturer's recommendations unless you have a
very good reason to deviate.
Overcharging is usually just a quick and dirty way to balance a long
series string of cells when you have no method to individually balance
them. Since you have loose cells, there is no need to balance them this
way. Basically, you just need to charge each one individually, stopping
when they pass the voltage peak.
> to prevent ingress of rain and dirt, they will be in a sealed box with
> little external airflow. Is it worth fitting a small air circulation
> fan (a PC CPU cooler fan perhaps?) to equalise temperature during
> charging?
They will get warm from charging and discharging. You should definitely
include a temperature sensor inside the pack. Take a look at commercial
nimh packs to see what sorts of protection they build in. Typically, you
will find a) a thermal fuse, b) an overcurrent fuse, c) a temperature
sensor that cuts back charge/discharge current before one of the fuses
blows.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> I'm planning on using Rudman Regs with a PFC-20... When regulators
> are used, what is the likelihood of a stray battery? Is there a
> good enough chance of wrecking a battery to make it worth building
> the BMS?
As long as the Rudman regulators and PFC are working and completely
hooked up, it should warn you of a problem. The reason for a second BMS
is as a backup system. If a regulator fails, you won't know it until too
late.
What I'd suggest is my simple Batt-Bridge circuit. It's just a few LEDs
and a couple resistors. It lights if any cell is more than 1v different
than the rest, which is a pretty good indication that something 'funny'
is going on that you should be aware of.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> Yes, I see now after a night's sleep that putting extra water in the
> battery was a screaming mistake. I should have put just enough to
> look a bit "wet"; this is not a flooded battery.
>
> I'll check on the battery this morning. If there is still a lot of free
> water in the cells I can simply discharge it to flat zero (all sulphur
> on the plates) then drain out the extra water (which since it will be
> dead will be pretty much pure h2o)
That will work, but is a bit tedious. If there is only a little excess
water, I'd probably leave the vent open and let it escape during each
charge cycle. It will evaporate and gas away just like a flooded
battery.
If you have a lot of excess, the cell is going to have excessive
resistance, and make a mess during charging (lots of acid misting in
fizzing). In this case I'd probably suck out the excess water with a
hydrometer and check its specific gravity. Then make some estimates on
how much acid I took out with the excess water, and add acid back
accordingly.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn, Interesting comparisons. I agree with you in principle, but here
are some small details to consider, imbedded below. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:48 AM
Subject: RE: Zinc fuel cells
>
> --- James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > in the first place. The idea is sound and I like it IFF the hardware
> > to
> > recombine the fuel can be purchased economicly and run at home.
> > Otherwise,
> > you have all the same problems of infrastructure we have now with the
> > "hydrogen economy" movement.
>
> Yeah it's interesting to compare with "information products"...
> everybody is coming around to the idea that information can be set free
> from the bounds of physical media... an example being downloading MP3's
> instead of buying CDs. (Let's assume the debates about how the artists
> are to get paid get resolved constructively, so that downloading isn't
> stealing.) Instead of paying all the time for trucks to deliver CD's
> from a factory to the store and then to you, we've paid once for a
> flexible, reusable infrastructure to transport information of all
> kinds; and once it's paid for, distribution costs almost nothing, and
> you only have to pay for production. It seems to me completely
> parallel that the electrical grid is the more "virtualized" energy
Unlike information distribution systems, significant energy is lost in
electrical power distribution, typically 2 to 3%. But, transporting natural
gas, oil, coal etc also takes energy.
> distribution system, and thus will always be superior to distribution
> systems which depend on providing transportation for physical storage
> media like hydrogen or zinc.
Electricity is inefficient to store. Putting it in and taking it out of a
lead acid battery loses 20% of the energy, for example. Batteries also self
discharge over time. Physical storage media, if stored properly, can last
indefinitely. Unfortunately for the hydrogen economy, hydrogen is difficult
to store. It requires either large volume, high pressure, or cold
temperature. Or a tricky chemical conversion. Hydrogen leaks out of small
cracks easily.
> Now, distributed power generation is
> another thing... sunshine and wind are already being spread out across
> the land, nothing we can do about that... so harnessing them in a
> distributed fashion makes sense, and distributed systems are superior
> to centralized systems due to redundancy and immunity to system-wide
> failure.
Distribution has its advantages, but centralization can more easily take
advantage of economies of scale. For example, a 1000 Mw centralized wind
farm might take 10 men and X amount of equipment to maintain, but 10 100 Mw
distributed systems might require 20 maintenance men and 2X amount of
equipment. There should be an optimum level of distribution based on many
competing factors.
>So after the virtual, but centralized, grid distribution
> system, that would be the next step; but passing gas or liquids around
> in pipelines or tankers is definitely a step backwards.
Well, we already have all the infrastrucure in place for this, and it will
continure to be there until we quit manufacturing plastics and chemicals
from petrochemicals that society has become accustomed to using. However,
hydrogen distribution is a whole new ball game and will require much new
equipment and technology.
> The only
> advantage being that refueling time can be cut down, because it's
> faster to pump something into a tank than to recharge a battery... but
> at what cost? Which is why I'm saying if EVs are to achieve
> mass-market viability, fast-charging is the most important development
> that needs to happen.
>
>
> =====
> . _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> (_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> __) | | \______________________________________________
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Search - Find what you're looking for faster
> http://search.yahoo.com
>
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Found virus WORM_NETSKY.D in file your_product.pif
The file is deleted.
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Ok, technically a peak charge is an overcharge. Not quite as much as a
slow overcharge. Probably safer thermally to do it slow the first
time.
Heating is less a prblem on a slow charge than a fast one. But
discharging will already have the insides hot. The Temperature may rise
for a half hour or more after you stop discharging. And if you are
charging and don't have temperature compensation and are charging
inside a box, then it can spell disaster.
The larger the cell, the more you need all the normal protections,
dT/dt, dV/dt, timer and temperature compensation. And active cooling.
13Ah cells are very big spiral wound cells. 9Ah are hard enough to
cool, 13Ah are worse, I bet. You can probably buy a charger that will
do just this, or at least without temperature compensation.
At 240 pounds for that pack you don't want to burn it up, or your
house.
Seth
On Mar 4, 2004, at 12:30 PM, Dermot Dobson wrote:
Thanks for the info Seth.
A: Do you have the datasheet from GP. It is quite good.
yep, got that before picking the cells.
B: Don't deviate unless you know what you are doing, and if you have
to ask...
That would be my usual plan, but when I talked to a couple of NiMH
resellers, they mentioned an initial overcharge was a good idea. this
is not, of course, mentioned in the datasheet, hence my question. The
idea that one should ensure that all of the cells are most definitely
charged, by use of a modest overcharge, does sound reasonable at first
sight, but lacking any specific guidance, I'm tempted to just charge
to full at the 14 hour rate and then trickle charge another, say, 25%.
C: At the 1 hour rate, expect 10-11Ah for 100% DOD
OK, that's a useful figure - I currently get close to 100% DOD (but
Heinzmann do have a low voltage cut off) on my 4AH NiCd pack quite
frequently which was the reason for the upgrade.
D: for best life, try to discharge to less than 80%
That should be OK - I don't think I'll ever need any more than twice
the energy expended, compared to my original pack.
E: Vent the container when charging/ discharging. They get hot. And
use a fan.
Is the heating much of a problem if I charge at no more than 1.3A? In
my application, I'd almost never need fast charge and presumably
slower charging is good for pack life.
For the first charge, peak charge them. I don't like peak charging,
it feels a little like Russian Roulette. But you will defintely know
when dV/dt falls off. (and when dT/dt climbs) I suspect for that
cell, you can peak charge at C/2, but follow the datasheet.
You need all 3 protections for charging these: timer, dV/dt and Dt/dt
or elese you will set something on fire. Charge termination detection
will be trickier as the rate drops.Take it from someone who has
charged a LOT of higher spiral wound NiMH. You can't play the same
tricks with D and F cells you can with the smaller cells, like Sub C
and below.
Again, if I limit to slow charge, is this still the case, or is just
one of them (plus a watchdog timer) sufficient? I've not found much
useful info around for smart chargers that go up to 36V - plenty of
12V and occasional 24V circuits, but i'd rather not have several
independent chargers unless I need to.
dermot
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If you have a lot of excess, the cell is going to have excessive
resistance, and make a mess during charging (lots of acid misting in
fizzing). In this case I'd probably suck out the excess water with a
hydrometer and check its specific gravity. Then make some estimates on
how much acid I took out with the excess water, and add acid back
accordingly.
I think I have a "lot" of excess. The battery will not charge, goes into
thermal runaway at the drop of a hat (just gets warm and fizzes) and the
charger will not climb above 10 volts even though it is pumping 15 amps
into the pack.
Interesting. When I hook my little 2 amp charger to the battery it pops
it's breaker.
I tried re-filling another battery but doing just enough to get the
plates porus without any surplus. We shall see how/if that goes.
Chris
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1sclunn wrote:
>
> Hi all
> I've had the zilla in my Mazda truck 4200lbs for a few weeks now , With 10
> feet of plastic hose and if it was a person , I'd say they were dead. I feel
> very little heat from this thing. The battery amps are set at 500 to save
> the batteries . I took my old gas smelling bud ,Nate for a ride the other
> day , ran through 25 ah pretty quick still everything cool , I have never
> felt it go into thermal cut back .
>
> > >
> > > I have seen many people driving on hot controllers while having
> > > absolutely no idea that they are doing anything bad. I think
> > > controller cooling is one area where lots of overkill is justified.
>
> At about what temp will the thermal cut back come on ?
>
> > > That reminds me, I need to add something that indicates when the
> > > controller is getting hot. Maybe make the Hairball flash the check
> > > engine light or something like that. Now if I could just get people
> > > to actually hook up the check engine light. :-)
> > >
> If your looking for stuff to add , how about a switch for two power
> setting , so one could easy reset the battery amps to a lower pre set value
> , so if your kids or friends want to use the your ev you just flick the
> hidden switch (or what ever) and not worry about them killing the batteries.
>
> Even though there doesn't seem to be a heat problem , I'm thinking about
> combo Hood ornament water cooler. My idea is to find something I like the
> shape of ( eagle with wings spread ) and make a aluminum casting of it with
> a piece of copper pipe inside .
> Steve Clunn
>
> > > Have fun!
> > > --
> > > -Otmar-
> > > http://www.CafeElectric.com
> > > Mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > Geez Ot, us folks from the air cooled world had the flahsing Red led in
> > mind before we even built stuff !!!!
> >
> > You also need a error code stored if over temp cut back is ever tagged.
> > This lets us look it as to how often we were Stupid with your
> > controllers. Or it lets you do that once we fry them.
> >
> > Take it from one who LIKES to boil water!!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
How about that aluminum Windmill/ radiator???
The next thing yer gonna ask Ot for is a remote, with Red , yellow and
green LED on it...Right????
Ot's got so much copper in tha t thing, that it takes a LOT of amps for
a Long time for the copper to get even tepid. I of course will find
those limits..... on the Dyno.
That is if I can pry my Zilla out of the GP, and Rod's hands.
It's not to worry Rod... I won't need My Zilla until I run to the limits
of my Raptors and T-Rexes....THAT's going to take some effort all in
itself.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Jim Coate wrote:
>
> So the PFC charger needs a stable 15 volt supply to power its brains.
>
> Right now you are going from the Prius's HV pack to its 12 volt battery
> to a 120VAC inverter (that makes crappy wave forms) to the PFC which
> does something to turn that back into 15 V DC.
>
> How about skipping a few steps and get a small 12 to 15 volt dc/dc?
> Actually a 9-18 volt in and 15 volt regulated out dc/dc (<$25). The
> power stage(s) of the PFC still have to eat the funky wave forms, but at
> least the steering logic would have clean power.
>
> Better yet, do this and open up the inverter and tap its 160Vdc output
> to feed the PFC power stage and should get higher efficiency.
>
> And of course listen to Rich as all the above is speculation on my part.
>
> Edward Ang wrote:
> > According to Rich, it is the 15V supply that is
> > complaining about this. May be the current spikes are
> > causing the 15V to drop?
> >
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
The PFC20s and 30s need about 25 watts of 15 volts, that's logic and the
FANS, and as we all know don't short change a PFC charger it's airflow.
Asking for 6kw from a Bread box sized Green box is asking aLOT. Heck the
competition has to use water cooling. And maybe I should also. The
PFC30s are getting wound up hard enough to limit summmer time power
through put.... again. I NEED the Micrometals New Stuff -61 200Deg C
core material... 10 to 12 weeks out, or later.
If you use a Dc to DC .... you need 25 watts OK????It need to be 15.00
volts + or - .200 volts And it needs to be filtered and smooth, as
smooth as you can get. The neg of this supply is connected to Battery
Neg, so isolation is a MUST.
Lee is right about spikey power, the little incverters, just are not
that clean, and or don't react as fast as the PFC drive circuits. I am
going to rob the Xantrex 600 watter from GP and see how far I can take
it, and what is needed. I bet a 80lbs isolation transformer will work
just fine......
If you disable the Buck sensor, and drop 160 VDC onto the charger this
will work. If you are doing a semi permanant install, Jumper the main
rectifier in the PFC power stage to remove 50 to 100 watts of losses.
But lets face all this stuff is warrente voiding hacks. If fed DC the
PDC circuit kinda goes to sleep, but all the current control feed back
are still active.
And NO Lee the PFC chip (UC 3854bn) doesn't require a sine wave. It
varies for constant power from a incoming wave... The wave can be rather
screwy, and the the chip just does it's thing. That's why it works just
fine on AC or DC.
The inverter thing is somehow the inverter drops off, and the house
power supply crashes, then this becomes a loop. What I would try is a
stifening cap ( John Wayland esque) on the input of the inverter, and
massive input cables. then loading the inverter to 1200 watts, and
making sure the basic system can stand a honest 1200 watt draw with a
resistor load bank. If this is solid... then try the PFC charger on the
output. Then add a Ferro transformer if needed, or twin filter chokes on
each AC leg(common mode choke).
And guys I want this to work!!! Really bad.
Any idea of how isolated the input to the output of the inverters
are????
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Jim Coate wrote:
>
> How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump? Or is the 10' of hose
> the radiator?
>
> 1sclunn wrote:
> > Hi all
> > I've had the zilla in my Mazda truck 4200lbs for a few weeks now , With 10
> > feet of plastic hose and if it was a person , I'd say they were dead. I feel
> > very little heat from this thing. The battery amps are set at 500 to save
> > the batteries . I took my old gas smelling bud ,Nate for a ride the other
> > day , ran through 25 ah pretty quick still everything cool , I have never
> > felt it go into thermal cut back .
> >
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
If the majority of the "hose" is copper or Aluminum, it would be just
fine.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Rhett George wrote:
>
> - Greetings -
>
> Jim Coate asked a great question about beefing up the back-end of a
> 600 Raptor so that if something broke, it would not be the diodes that
> broke first. Two possibilities exist. One is to add diodes in parallel
> with the present. To get them to share the current equally, they must
> be positioned to receive the current pulse at the same time and with
> a good degree of balance in the current paths. This almost dictates
> mounting them along side the present diodes.
>
> Second possibility is to replace the present diodes in some part of
> their function or in the total function. Total function involves
> removing the present diodes and replacing with higher current, higher
> reverse breakdown voltage, and faster response diodes that fit in the
> same spaces. Partial function replacement may involve mounting a new,
> massive, fast diode stack at the motor to take care of the motor cur-
> rent collapse. Diodes in the controller could then take care of the
> current collapse in lead inductance.
>
> How do others see the possibility of beefing up the controller.
>
> Rhett
Adding all 18 diodes to the power stage, would be my first thought.
It took a 35 lbs chunck of copper heated to 550 Deg F to reflow each
condutor bar in a Raptor/Rex. Something only Damon and crew did well. I
have done it, it's a real pain in the butt, and it takes some skill to
do it right everytime. The power stage was critcally designed for equal
length controlled lead distance and impedance. Just hacking in new
diodes isn't going to do much.
Actually adding inductance to the total motor loop, addes saftey. Since
the fail mode is having a diode weld itself into a short. Slower current
ramp rates with more inductance will help the current limits.
Getting all arcing issues solved inside the motor, should be taken
into play here. Adding a couple of Deg to the brushes helps. Also using
a lower drive gear drops the motor current needs. This is training the
driver, instead of training the controller. Awesome concept.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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