EV Digest 3391
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Electric Groundskeeping
by Andrew in Ann Arbor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) remove
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Raptor & diodes
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Groundskeeping
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) a story about Trojan batteries
by "brian G" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Peukert Number for Orbitals and heat tape update
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Orbital voltage?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) E-meter
by "Brian D. Hall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: E-meter
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter (Success!)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) OT-Junqueyard Finds-OT
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Partisan Politics ...
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Orbital voltage?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter (Success!)
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zinc fuel cells
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: z1k cooling
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: z1k cooling
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Orbital voltage?
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: PFC Series Chargers on Inverter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: a story about Trojan batteries
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Peukert Number for Orbitals and heat tape update
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Orbital voltage?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
> Subject: OT (?) Electric Groundskeeping
From: "Chris Tromley" <chris_t(a-t)microtrac.com>
I've just moved to a new house. The new place is 3/4 acre with over
50 trees. In terms of yard maintenance I've gone from blissfully
ignorant to Junior Forest Ranger.
Where have you ended up?
I know the feeling, i now live on 1/3 acre in treetown (Ann Arbor)
I had a sear 6 Hp gas shredder that mulched the leaves nicely but took
me as long to get started in the fall as it did to actually chew through
all the leaves.
So I got a Sear/craftsman "chipper" shredder with a 2 HP motor.
It's model 833.799821. You can go to <http://www3.sears.com/> and enter
the part number to see diagrams.
It's not bad but the feed hopper is badly designed narrowing down to a
right angle turn at the bottom. The result is that I have to feed the
leaves in a handful at a time which really reduces production.
I'm considering upping the voltage to 220 in the hopes that I could then
get twice the horsepower out of it then. I suppose I'd want to replace
the motor since this would be high duty cycle so I don't think i could
get away with just doubling the voltage.
The other good idea would be to scrap the stock hopper and make a new
one that comes straight out (I can turn the motor unit 90 degrees to match).
I've seen the McCulloch chipper-shredders
http://www.mccullochpower.com/shredder.htm
I like the large diameter straight sided feed chute, looks like things
would be less likely to get clogged. If you get one let me know how it
works...
and the Flowtron leaf
shredder (mixed reviews at Amazon)
>
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006XMTM/104-9699675-2943131?v=glance&vi=customer-reviews>
I've heard similarly pessimistic reviews of the Flowtron. The most
encouraging thing I read suggested that you could lay it on it's side
and rake the leaves into it. I expect it might work with nice dry-fluffy
leaves but that's not usually what I'm dealing with.
I did find a few more options...
Here's the Patriot Model CSV-2515 electric shredder
<http://www.patriot-products-inc.com/products.htm#eleccsv>
This one looks like the Patriot but cheaper
<http://www.deer-busters.com/too-5101.html>
I would suggest that any of these shredders is more or less useless for
branches. In my experience you have to cut a shrub into individual
sticks and feed them one at a time. It's much quicker to place them in a
barrel for the city to pick up.
Haven't seen an electric version of
a *real* chipper yet.
You could always put a motor on this one...
Looks like you could put a small tree in and it would gobble it right up.
Of course you would need a big motor!
<http://www.valbysales.com/newpage28.htm>
Then I learned about lawn vacuum/shredders.
http://products.consumerguide.com/cp/family/review/index.cfm/id/24641
No one seems to make an electric one, but they appear to save you the
time of raking up leaves and even have a handy hose to clean out flower
beds and such.
I considered these until I read an account of a guy that just runs over
the leaves with his mulching mower. That's what I've been doing with my
B+D corded mower (model MM575). If you let the leaves get too deep you
have to go over them several times but it seems to do a decent job.
I suppose if you didn't want to mulch the lawn you could put a bag on
the mower...
Good Luck
Let me know what works for you
--
Andrew in Ann Arbor
technology is the answer, what was the question?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
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--- Begin Message ---
Partial function replacement may involve mounting a
new,
> massive, fast diode stack at the motor to take care
of the motor cur-
> rent collapse. Diodes in the controller could then
take care of the
> current collapse in lead inductance.
Rich,
What's your response to this statement
Rod
P.S. Never tried this, just wondering
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rhett George wrote:
> >
> > - Greetings -
> >
> > Jim Coate asked a great question about beefing up
> the back-end of a
> > 600 Raptor so that if something broke, it would
> not be the diodes that
> > broke first. Two possibilities exist. One is to
> add diodes in parallel
> > with the present. To get them to share the
> current equally, they must
> > be positioned to receive the current pulse at the
> same time and with
> > a good degree of balance in the current paths.
> This almost dictates
> > mounting them along side the present diodes.
> >
> > Second possibility is to replace the present
> diodes in some part of
> > their function or in the total function. Total
> function involves
> > removing the present diodes and replacing with
> higher current, higher
> > reverse breakdown voltage, and faster response
> diodes that fit in the
> > same spaces. Partial function replacement may
> involve mounting a new,
> > massive, fast diode stack at the motor to take
> care of the motor cur-
> > rent collapse. Diodes in the controller could
> then take care of the
> > current collapse in lead inductance.
> >
> > How do others see the possibility of beefing up
> the controller.
> >
> > Rhett
> Adding all 18 diodes to the power stage, would be my
> first thought.
> It took a 35 lbs chunck of copper heated to 550 Deg
> F to reflow each
> condutor bar in a Raptor/Rex. Something only Damon
> and crew did well. I
> have done it, it's a real pain in the butt, and it
> takes some skill to
> do it right everytime. The power stage was
> critcally designed for equal
> length controlled lead distance and impedance. Just
> hacking in new
> diodes isn't going to do much.
> Actually adding inductance to the total motor loop,
> addes saftey. Since
> the fail mode is having a diode weld itself into a
> short. Slower current
> ramp rates with more inductance will help the
> current limits.
> Getting all arcing issues solved inside the motor,
> should be taken
> into play here. Adding a couple of Deg to the
> brushes helps. Also using
> a lower drive gear drops the motor current needs.
> This is training the
> driver, instead of training the controller. Awesome
> concept.
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 6hp Craftsman leaf 'sucker'.
It's gas powered and I hate to say that I couldn't
find a more efficient electric alternative.
I used a single 4 gallon gas can to suck up
all of the leafs on my 1 acre yard which is surrounded
by full grown trees and several pines (this is for the
entire season).
This is the most awesome tool in my arsenal for
picking up leaves. The vacuum is strong enough to
pick up 2.75" diameter rocks using the 3" diameter
vacuum
hose.
I'll save the more efficient electric action for
the Elec-Trac mower,
http://www.qsl.net/w8rnh/etrakh/
Rod.
--- Andrew in Ann Arbor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Subject: OT (?) Electric Groundskeeping
> > From: "Chris Tromley" <chris_t(a-t)microtrac.com>
> > I've just moved to a new house. The new place is
> 3/4 acre with over
> > 50 trees. In terms of yard maintenance I've gone
> from blissfully
> > ignorant to Junior Forest Ranger.
>
> Where have you ended up?
>
> I know the feeling, i now live on 1/3 acre in
> treetown (Ann Arbor)
> I had a sear 6 Hp gas shredder that mulched the
> leaves nicely but took
> me as long to get started in the fall as it did to
> actually chew through
> all the leaves.
> So I got a Sear/craftsman "chipper" shredder with a
> 2 HP motor.
> It's model 833.799821. You can go to
> <http://www3.sears.com/> and enter
> the part number to see diagrams.
> It's not bad but the feed hopper is badly designed
> narrowing down to a
> right angle turn at the bottom. The result is that I
> have to feed the
> leaves in a handful at a time which really reduces
> production.
> I'm considering upping the voltage to 220 in the
> hopes that I could then
> get twice the horsepower out of it then. I suppose
> I'd want to replace
> the motor since this would be high duty cycle so I
> don't think i could
> get away with just doubling the voltage.
> The other good idea would be to scrap the stock
> hopper and make a new
> one that comes straight out (I can turn the motor
> unit 90 degrees to match).
>
> > I've seen the McCulloch chipper-shredders
> > http://www.mccullochpower.com/shredder.htm
> I like the large diameter straight sided feed chute,
> looks like things
> would be less likely to get clogged. If you get one
> let me know how it
> works...
>
> >and the Flowtron leaf
> > shredder (mixed reviews at Amazon)
> >
>
<http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/B00006XMTM/104-9699675-2943131?v=glance&vi=customer-reviews>
>
>
>
> I've heard similarly pessimistic reviews of the
> Flowtron. The most
> encouraging thing I read suggested that you could
> lay it on it's side
> and rake the leaves into it. I expect it might work
> with nice dry-fluffy
> leaves but that's not usually what I'm dealing with.
>
> I did find a few more options...
>
> Here's the Patriot Model CSV-2515 electric shredder
>
<http://www.patriot-products-inc.com/products.htm#eleccsv>
>
> This one looks like the Patriot but cheaper
> <http://www.deer-busters.com/too-5101.html>
>
> I would suggest that any of these shredders is more
> or less useless for
> branches. In my experience you have to cut a shrub
> into individual
> sticks and feed them one at a time. It's much
> quicker to place them in a
> barrel for the city to pick up.
>
> > Haven't seen an electric version of
> > a *real* chipper yet.
>
> You could always put a motor on this one...
> Looks like you could put a small tree in and it
> would gobble it right up.
> Of course you would need a big motor!
> <http://www.valbysales.com/newpage28.htm>
>
> > Then I learned about lawn vacuum/shredders.
> >
>
http://products.consumerguide.com/cp/family/review/index.cfm/id/24641
> > No one seems to make an electric one, but they
> appear to save you the
> > time of raking up leaves and even have a handy
> hose to clean out flower
> > beds and such.
>
> I considered these until I read an account of a guy
> that just runs over
> the leaves with his mulching mower. That's what I've
> been doing with my
> B+D corded mower (model MM575). If you let the
> leaves get too deep you
> have to go over them several times but it seems to
> do a decent job.
> I suppose if you didn't want to mulch the lawn you
> could put a bag on
> the mower...
>
> Good Luck
>
> Let me know what works for you
> --
> Andrew in Ann Arbor
> technology is the answer, what was the question?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i used to work at the local airport at a fancy FBO(fixed base operator)
there was a floor matching that we used it was 48 Volt and used a trojan
batteries, some fool hooked it up to the 36 Volt charger when they left work
at 9pm. i showed up to work at 4:45am the next morning. when i walked in the
hanger it stunk like someone had spilled a lavatory in one of the jets. so i
was looking around and saw steam shooting out the top of the batteries well
i was scared to un plug it for fear of sparks(not knowing if it was shooting
hydrogen or what) so i turned off the breaker and opened the doors to the
hanger. i also got some rubber gloves and pushed the floor cleaner outside.
3 hours later when't he mechanics got there it was still to hot to touch and
it had splashed battery acid all over the floor. anyway ill summarize the
rest of the story,
2 days of cleaning .
batteries flushed and refilled with fresh distilled water.
floor machine works grate and is still working 6mounths later.....
could have burned down a 3 million dollar building with 45 million in
planes(at least)
falcon 2000
extra 300
cessna 182
2 gliders
beach 18
falcon 900
Cessna citation 3
_________________________________________________________________
Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee when you click here.
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Have recently replaced Optimas with Orbitals 34 DC Marine (Blue Tops) in my Delectric
Sol. I looked through the Orbital specs and wrote emails to them asking about
Peukert number to put into my emeter. Haven't heard anything.
I cannot find this info in EVDL archives. I'm currently using same PN as my
Optimas...is it significantly different for Orbitals?
I also owe the list an update on my trial with using Flex Watt Heat Tape
The best pictures of this tape and wiring instructions can be found at
http://www.arbreptiles.com/cages/flexwire.shtml
(They are made for placing under your reptile's acquarium to keep warm.)
Advantages: Inexpensive, easy to install, low wattage consumption
Disadvantages: I went with the 11" wide, so it's only 20 watts per section, and I
have 2 sections per battery box. A total of 6 sections draws only 120 watts when I
have them running full power...not much heat. I did wire in a light dimmer to allow
less heating on mild nights.
In my non-heated garage in Colorado my batteries sitting all night in insulated
battery boxes would be at about 40-45 degrees F before heaters were installed. With
the heaters, I turn them on right after I turn my charger off, to maintain heat all
night. At the end of charging they are between 50-55 F. When I drive out of the
garage in the morning, with a 35-40 F garage, my batteries are about 70-75 F.
While the heaters are just enough for my garage-kept EV, I can see that these would
not put out enough heat for a car sitting outside in the cold.
If I were to do it again--rather than use the 11" wide heat tape and put under the
batteries, I would go with the 3" or 4" wide tape and zig-zag a path around/between
each battery on the sides. I think this would increase the overall exposure of the
heat tape to the battery. These different widths can be seen at:
http://www.reptilesource.com/?heating%7CHeat%20Tape
Thanks for your advice on PN, in advance!
Chuck
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/342.html
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I think I saw someone mention what I'm after, but I can't find it in the
archives (Gosh, I even looked for like 30 seconds!).
What is the actual voltage of a charged Orbital? It's higher than 12
volts, right? What is the maximum voltage you'd ever see out of an
Orbital (or any 12 volt flooded or AGM)? I'm designing a custom voltage
sensing system that will interface with my dash fuel gauge. The
high-voltage signal will have to be isolated from the 12 volt system,
probably with an optocoupler. The 120 volt (in my case) signal will be
dropped to below 5 volts so I can analyze the signal with a PIC. I'm
thinking just a voltage divider with 2 resistors will do the trick? The
PIC will then output the correct signal to the dash. Anyone done
anything like this? Any suggestions? My digital dash has about 14 bars
on it.
What is usually considered an "empty tank"? When the voltage sags to
80% (96 volts for a 120 volt system)?
Thanks for the help,
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Anyone rebuild E-Meters out there. I have one that got spiked to 100 volts
on the 24 volt power input. This happened when a one battery connection was
removed for servicing and the e-meter saw the rest of the pack through the
controller. ;^(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From just a couple of weeks ago:
-------- Original Message --------
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
When I thought I fried my e-meter, I wrote a message to that effect on
Xantrex's web site and within a couple days got a friendly phone call
from their Technical Service Analyst Randy Johnson. Until I told him my
meter wasn't actually fried, he had said I should send it in for repair,
which they can indeed do. As I mentioned earlier, they can also upgrade
an e-meter to include the RS-232 interface for about $70.
Here's contact info for Technical Service at Xantrex:
Randy Johnson
Technical Service Analyst
Customer Service Operations
Xantrex Technology Inc.
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
5916 195th NE
Arlington, Washington 98223
General Tel: 360/435.8826
General Fax: 360/925.5144
Brian D. Hall wrote:
Anyone rebuild E-Meters out there. I have one that got spiked to 100 volts
on the 24 volt power input. This happened when a one battery connection was
removed for servicing and the e-meter saw the rest of the pack through the
controller. ;^(
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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--- Begin Message ---
I connected only the output of my 32V autotransformer
in series with the charger and left the input
floating. Essentially, I was using it as a big
honking inductor... And, it worked!
On scope, the transformer (inductor) voltage is
oscillating at about 180Hz. And, I was able to put
3.5A at 168V = 588W into the battery before the 600W
inverter shut off. Not bad. The input cables of the
inverter was getting quite warm after about 5 minutes.
It is time to upgrade the inverter and the input
cable.
Thanks for everyone's help. The autotransformer is
1kVA 120/240V 60/50Hz 16/32V. It weights about 22lb.
Ed Ang
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Jim Coate wrote:
> >
> > So the PFC charger needs a stable 15 volt supply
> to power its brains.
> >
> > Right now you are going from the Prius's HV pack
> to its 12 volt battery
> > to a 120VAC inverter (that makes crappy wave
> forms) to the PFC which
> > does something to turn that back into 15 V DC.
> >
> > How about skipping a few steps and get a small 12
> to 15 volt dc/dc?
> > Actually a 9-18 volt in and 15 volt regulated out
> dc/dc (<$25). The
> > power stage(s) of the PFC still have to eat the
> funky wave forms, but at
> > least the steering logic would have clean power.
> >
> > Better yet, do this and open up the inverter and
> tap its 160Vdc output
> > to feed the PFC power stage and should get higher
> efficiency.
> >
> > And of course listen to Rich as all the above is
> speculation on my part.
> >
> > Edward Ang wrote:
> > > According to Rich, it is the 15V supply that is
> > > complaining about this. May be the current
> spikes are
> > > causing the 15V to drop?
> > >
> >
> > _________
> > Jim Coate
> > 1970's Elec-Trak
> > 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> > http://www.eeevee.com
>
> The PFC20s and 30s need about 25 watts of 15 volts,
> that's logic and the
> FANS, and as we all know don't short change a PFC
> charger it's airflow.
> Asking for 6kw from a Bread box sized Green box is
> asking aLOT. Heck the
> competition has to use water cooling. And maybe I
> should also. The
> PFC30s are getting wound up hard enough to limit
> summmer time power
> through put.... again. I NEED the Micrometals New
> Stuff -61 200Deg C
> core material... 10 to 12 weeks out, or later.
>
> If you use a Dc to DC .... you need 25 watts
> OK????It need to be 15.00
> volts + or - .200 volts And it needs to be filtered
> and smooth, as
> smooth as you can get. The neg of this supply is
> connected to Battery
> Neg, so isolation is a MUST.
>
> Lee is right about spikey power, the little
> incverters, just are not
> that clean, and or don't react as fast as the PFC
> drive circuits. I am
> going to rob the Xantrex 600 watter from GP and see
> how far I can take
> it, and what is needed. I bet a 80lbs isolation
> transformer will work
> just fine......
>
> If you disable the Buck sensor, and drop 160 VDC
> onto the charger this
> will work. If you are doing a semi permanant
> install, Jumper the main
> rectifier in the PFC power stage to remove 50 to 100
> watts of losses.
>
> But lets face all this stuff is warrente voiding
> hacks. If fed DC the
> PDC circuit kinda goes to sleep, but all the current
> control feed back
> are still active.
> And NO Lee the PFC chip (UC 3854bn) doesn't require
> a sine wave. It
> varies for constant power from a incoming wave...
> The wave can be rather
> screwy, and the the chip just does it's thing.
> That's why it works just
> fine on AC or DC.
>
> The inverter thing is somehow the inverter drops
> off, and the house
> power supply crashes, then this becomes a loop. What
> I would try is a
> stifening cap ( John Wayland esque) on the input of
> the inverter, and
> massive input cables. then loading the inverter to
> 1200 watts, and
> making sure the basic system can stand a honest 1200
> watt draw with a
> resistor load bank. If this is solid... then try the
> PFC charger on the
> output. Then add a Ferro transformer if needed, or
> twin filter chokes on
> each AC leg(common mode choke).
>
> And guys I want this to work!!! Really bad.
>
> Any idea of how isolated the input to the output of
> the inverters
> are????
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Been hauling and stacking my latest load of Fine-Junque for a week now and
thought I would mention some of the off the top finds as being somewhat
topical to current discussions. First a nice collection of what appears to
be small inductors, about the size of an orange and 3-5 lbs. I did see a few
larger ones about the size of a grapefruit and I still have some really big
ones (20 to 75 lb range). 3 or 4 flat plate oil coolers about 1 foot sq with
some sensor wiring adhered on them. Motors of all descriptions, none
particularly EV noteworthy but might be good accessory stuff as well as a
very nice Leeson 3 HP single phase if you need a compressor motor. Lots of
DC actuators and rotary solenoids etc. Low voltage (24-36 V) DC contactors
up to 400 amps as well as a nice collection of high quality DC rated
switches out of Aircraft panels and test instruments. Of course AN fittings
and rivits out the wazoo. Some nice small tubular electric resistance air
heaters as well as Janatrol fuel heaters. And last but not least a rebuilt
85 lb Westinghouse 30 KVA 3 phase alternator. Any interest or need for this
stuff contact me OFF-LIST please. Thanks and regards to all, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
... has no place on this list. General, non-emotional, value-neutral references
^may^ be OK where an on topic discussion absolutely REQUIRES them.
This will be very seldom, probably only in the context of discussing EV-
related legislation.
Please do not ever mention specific candidates or suggest that anyone
should vote for or against any candidate. All that does is generate flames.
There are Internet forums and newsgroups for politics. Please discuss
politics there, not here. Thanks.
David Roden
Assistant EV List Administrator
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The best indicator of state of charge is the resting voltage. This is not
available during operation. The vehicle must sit for 24 hours to get a
reasonable reading.
If what you want is the state of charge while driving, it can be derived
from taking three measurements and using the values to select a value from a
look up table or from equations derived from your pack behavior. The two
most important readings are Pack Voltage and Pack current. A less critical
reading is the Pack temperature.
If you know the (temperature compensated) internal resistance of the pack,
you can derive an approximation of the state of charge from the equation:
SOC (%) = ((V-(R*A))/N-12)*100
Where:
V is the pack voltage
R is the pack resistance
A is the pack amperes (discharge is negative)
N is the number of 12 volt blocks
The process is to compute the voltage drop across the internal resistance
(R*A) and subtract it from the pack voltage V-(R*A) to get the current
corrected pack Voltage. You then divide by the number of blocks and subtract
the discharged block Voltage (V-(R*A))/N-12. You then divide by the
difference in fully charged from fully discharged (1 volt not shown) and
multiply by 100 to get the percent charged.
There are some sources of error:
1. The resistance of PbA batteries goes up as they discharge.
2. The open circuit voltage goes up and the internal resistance goes up with
decreasing temperature.
3. The resistance goes up and open circuit voltage goes down as a battery
ages.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:38 PM
Subject: Orbital voltage?
> Hi,
>
> I think I saw someone mention what I'm after, but I can't find it in the
> archives (Gosh, I even looked for like 30 seconds!).
>
> What is the actual voltage of a charged Orbital? It's higher than 12
> volts, right? What is the maximum voltage you'd ever see out of an
> Orbital (or any 12 volt flooded or AGM)? I'm designing a custom voltage
> sensing system that will interface with my dash fuel gauge. The
> high-voltage signal will have to be isolated from the 12 volt system,
> probably with an optocoupler. The 120 volt (in my case) signal will be
> dropped to below 5 volts so I can analyze the signal with a PIC. I'm
> thinking just a voltage divider with 2 resistors will do the trick? The
> PIC will then output the correct signal to the dash. Anyone done
> anything like this? Any suggestions? My digital dash has about 14 bars
> on it.
>
> What is usually considered an "empty tank"? When the voltage sags to
> 80% (96 volts for a 120 volt system)?
>
> Thanks for the help,
>
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
>
> I connected only the output of my 32V autotransformer
> in series with the charger and left the input
> floating. Essentially, I was using it as a big
> honking inductor... And, it worked!
>
> On scope, the transformer (inductor) voltage is
> oscillating at about 180Hz. And, I was able to put
> 3.5A at 168V = 588W into the battery before the 600W
> inverter shut off. Not bad. The input cables of the
> inverter was getting quite warm after about 5 minutes.
>
> It is time to upgrade the inverter and the input
> cable.
>
> Thanks for everyone's help. The autotransformer is
> 1kVA 120/240V 60/50Hz 16/32V. It weights about 22lb.
>
> Ed Ang
>
Joe, Lee care to guess as the Milli Henerys that this aproxamates??? I
might beable to shake up a smaller lighter inductor with the cores that
we make the chargers with.
6 lbs is the core wight that we use in the PFC50s. If it's possible that
I might beable to save some weight and size.
What's funny is in the preproduction days of these inverters, the
engineers put big honking Roids as the output filters, and as they got
the filters and switching figued out the Roid size got smaller and
smaller. I remembered this a couple of years ago, and called a old Buddy
from Heart(NOT Damon) and he gave me the leads to Micro metals. It looks
like they shoulda left the R&D filter on those little noise makers!!!!
Glad we found a solution. I have not had the time this week to figure it
out. I would have gotten Rod's 600 watt inverter for testing on a
charger delivery run in the morning.
OH well.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Mar 04, 2004 at 03:47:57PM -0600, Mark Thomasson wrote:
> Electricity is inefficient to store. Putting it in and taking it out of a
> lead acid battery loses 20% of the energy, for example. Batteries also self
> discharge over time. Physical storage media, if stored properly, can last
Yeah that's a problem. But I think conversion to hydrogen and back is
probably not any better. What bothers me about electrolysis is that a
lot of power would get converted to heat, just traversing the bulk
resistance of the water, I would think. I doubt that hydrogen is
commonly commercially produced by this method. But some people probably
imagine that the majority of it will be produced by reforming ethanol,
which is produced by fermenting corn. Either way it's a lot of steps
from the sun to the final energy form.
Mass transit, where there is a track or overhead powerlines along the
route, would make more efficient use of the grid than BEVs by
eliminating the battery charging inefficiencies.
> Well, we already have all the infrastrucure in place for this, and it will
> continure to be there until we quit manufacturing plastics and chemicals
> from petrochemicals that society has become accustomed to using. However,
> hydrogen distribution is a whole new ball game and will require much new
> equipment and technology.
Yep; that might even be an understatement.
--
_______ Shawn T. Rutledge
(_ | |_) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * http://ecloud.org:8080
__) | | \________________________________________________________________
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:15 AM
Subject: Re: z1k cooling
> How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump? Or is the 10' of hose
> the radiator?
>
For now I set it up using an old electric gas pump ( the one that looks
like a block) and just the 10 foot hose , drove it around the block then
felt the hose's for heat , not even warm more laps , still cool even after
some hard driving. maybe the 10 feet of hose is working as a radiator , Yes
a radiator of some sort will be added . I'll put somthing in there soon but
the water hoses don't even get warm , I think It would take some good
batteries to warm up the water .
SteveClunn
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
I don't know if you are running water or WEG in your
cooling loop, but if you are running water through a
fuel pump, you should expect greatly reduced life.
Most of those fuel pumps rely on the gas to do some
internal lubrication, and water won't cut it. Glycol
is probably better, although i would check material
compatability if I were you.
~fortunat
--- 1sclunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Coate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 11:15 AM
> Subject: Re: z1k cooling
>
>
> > How big a radiator are you using? How big a pump?
> Or is the 10' of hose
> > the radiator?
> >
> For now I set it up using an old electric gas pump
> ( the one that looks
> like a block) and just the 10 foot hose , drove it
> around the block then
> felt the hose's for heat , not even warm more laps
> , still cool even after
> some hard driving. maybe the 10 feet of hose is
> working as a radiator , Yes
> a radiator of some sort will be added . I'll put
> somthing in there soon but
> the water hoses don't even get warm , I think It
> would take some good
> batteries to warm up the water .
> SteveClunn
>
> >
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hi
i have 120 volt pack of orbitals. what should the
resting voltage be when properly and fully charged?
thanks
--- Joe Smalley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The best indicator of state of charge is the resting
> voltage. This is not
> available during operation. The vehicle must sit for
> 24 hours to get a
> reasonable reading.
>
> If what you want is the state of charge while
> driving, it can be derived
> from taking three measurements and using the values
> to select a value from a
> look up table or from equations derived from your
> pack behavior. The two
> most important readings are Pack Voltage and Pack
> current. A less critical
> reading is the Pack temperature.
>
> If you know the (temperature compensated) internal
> resistance of the pack,
> you can derive an approximation of the state of
> charge from the equation:
>
> SOC (%) = ((V-(R*A))/N-12)*100
>
> Where:
> V is the pack voltage
> R is the pack resistance
> A is the pack amperes (discharge is negative)
> N is the number of 12 volt blocks
>
> The process is to compute the voltage drop across
> the internal resistance
> (R*A) and subtract it from the pack voltage V-(R*A)
> to get the current
> corrected pack Voltage. You then divide by the
> number of blocks and subtract
> the discharged block Voltage (V-(R*A))/N-12. You
> then divide by the
> difference in fully charged from fully discharged (1
> volt not shown) and
> multiply by 100 to get the percent charged.
>
> There are some sources of error:
> 1. The resistance of PbA batteries goes up as they
> discharge.
> 2. The open circuit voltage goes up and the internal
> resistance goes up with
> decreasing temperature.
> 3. The resistance goes up and open circuit voltage
> goes down as a battery
> ages.
>
> Joe Smalley
> Rural Kitsap County WA
> Fiesta 48 volts
> NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2004 8:38 PM
> Subject: Orbital voltage?
>
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > I think I saw someone mention what I'm after, but
> I can't find it in the
> > archives (Gosh, I even looked for like 30
> seconds!).
> >
> > What is the actual voltage of a charged Orbital?
> It's higher than 12
> > volts, right? What is the maximum voltage you'd
> ever see out of an
> > Orbital (or any 12 volt flooded or AGM)? I'm
> designing a custom voltage
> > sensing system that will interface with my dash
> fuel gauge. The
> > high-voltage signal will have to be isolated from
> the 12 volt system,
> > probably with an optocoupler. The 120 volt (in my
> case) signal will be
> > dropped to below 5 volts so I can analyze the
> signal with a PIC. I'm
> > thinking just a voltage divider with 2 resistors
> will do the trick? The
> > PIC will then output the correct signal to the
> dash. Anyone done
> > anything like this? Any suggestions? My digital
> dash has about 14 bars
> > on it.
> >
> > What is usually considered an "empty tank"? When
> the voltage sags to
> > 80% (96 volts for a 120 volt system)?
> >
> > Thanks for the help,
> >
> > Ryan
> >
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Search - Find what you�re looking for faster
http://search.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> The PFC20s and 30s need about 25 watts of 15 volts, that's logic and
> the FANS... If you use a DC/DC (to power this) you need 25 watts OK?
> It need to be 15.00 volts +/- 0.2 volts and it needs to be filtered
> and smooth, as smooth as you can get. The neg of this supply is
> connected to Battery Neg, so isolation is a MUST.
I would expect that if the input power is so bad that the PFC's internal
DC/DC won't work, then you are *really* going to have problems using
that power for charging. Rich, isn't your 15v supply just a standard
'universal input' non-PFC switcher? If so, it should work with power so
bad that the PFC stage can't even use it.
> Lee is right about spikey power, the little inverters just are not
> that clean, and/or don't react as fast as the PFC drive circuits.
Here's what I suspect to be the problem: A perfect PFC input looks
exactly like a resistive load. Voltage and current in-phase and exactly
proportional regardless of input voltage. The 'fast' control loop in the
PFC creates this effect by forcing instantaneous current to be precisely
proportional to instantaneous voltage. The 'slow' control loop adjusts
the apparent resistance to get the desired power output.
But, both of these control loops assume you are feeding in 60 Hz. If
there are high frequency components (like a square wave), then the
'fast' control loop cannot change conditions fast enough. That means the
input *won't* look resistive. I think Unitrode quoted 400 Hz as the max
freq. for the fast loop, and a square wave inverter will have frequency
components way past 10 KHz.
What I think this means is that the inverter will see a very peculiar
non-resistive load. A square wave input voltage could produce severe
ringing and oveshoot in the current waveform as the 'fast' loop first
responds too slow to the voltage step, and then overcompensates in
trying to bring the peak current back down in line.
Many of the older PFC circuit didn't even have this 'fast' control loop.
Their PFC was not as good, but still 0.95 or better. You'll have to read
the appnotes on the UC3854 to see how to do this. With a square wave
input, this would probably mean the current input was a sort-of sinewave
even if the input voltage was a square wave. This is probably fine in
this application.
> The inverter thing is somehow the inverter drops off, and the house
> power supply crashes, then this becomes a loop.
I'd guess that the inverter does something like detect peak output
current, and shut down if its limit is exceeded. The PFC draws this peak
current by accident when the voltage changes too quickly. Inverter shuts
down, then restarts. Cycle repeats.
> What I would try is a stifening cap (John Wayland esque) on the
> input of the inverter, and massive input cables, then loading the
> inverter to 1200 watts, and making sure the basic system can stand
> a honest 1200 watt draw with a resistor load bank.
Good advice. That will tell you if the inverter is working correctly and
anywhere near able to meet specs.
> If this is solid... then try the PFC charger on the output. Then add
> a Ferro transformer if needed, or twin filter chokes on each AC leg
> (common mode choke).
A ferroresonant transformer will almost certainly work. But, it is a
*heavy* chunk of iron!
Series inductors will help if high peak currents are the problem (what I
described above). But if *voltage* spikes are the problem, inductors
will make it worse. If that turns out to be the case, capacitors across
the output of the inverter might help.
More likely, an LC filter (both a series inductor and a capacitor) may
be needed; this will filter out higher-frequency harmonics generated by
the square wave. But, it will also make your PFC correction useless.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good story, Brian!
Brian G wrote:
> there was a floor matchine that we used. It was 48 Volt and used
> Trojan batteries. Some fool hooked it up to the 36 Volt charger
This would do nothing. More likely it was a 36v battery on a 48v
charger. *That* would get entertaining fast!
> At 4:45am the next morning, when I walked in the hanger it stunk
> like someone had spilled a lavatory in one of the jets. so I was
> looking around and saw steam shooting out the top of the batteries
> I was scared to unplug it for fear of sparks (not knowing if it was
> shooting hydrogen or what) so i turned off the breaker and opened
> the doors to the hanger.
Good thinking! That probably was steam coming out of the batteries,
along with a lot of hydrogen.
> 2 days of cleaning batteries flushed and refilled with fresh
> distilled water.
and they may have had to add acid to replace that lost.
> Floor machine works great and is still working
> 6 mounths later.
Tough batteries!
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Have recently replaced Optimas with Orbitals 34 DC Marine (Blue Tops)
> in my Delectric Sol. I looked through the Orbital specs and wrote
> emails to them asking about Peukert number to put into my emeter.
> Haven't heard anything. I cannot find this info in EVDL archives.
Your best bet is to measure it yourself. Manufacturer's specs often
exaggerate.
Basically, you need to measure the amphours at two different discharge
currents. Try to use currents that you actually use in your EV, like 25
amps and 100 amps. From this, you can calculate the Peukert value from
the formula in the E-meter manual.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm wrote:
> What is the actual voltage of a charged Orbital? ...
About 12.8-13.1v no-load when fully charged.
> What is the maximum voltage you'd ever see out of an
> Orbital (or any 12 volt flooded or AGM)?
While charging, it could easily exceed 15v. While discharging, it
shouldn't go below 10v. The lowest you should pull your batteries down
to under load is about 1.75v/cell, or 10.5v/battery, or 105v for a 120v
pack.
> I'm designing a custom voltage sensing system that will interface
> with my dash fuel gauge. The high-voltage signal will have to be
> isolated from the 12 volt system, probably with an optocoupler.
> The 120 volt (in my case) signal will be dropped to below 5 volts
> so I can analyze the signal with a PIC. I'm thinking just a voltage
> divider with 2 resistors will do the trick? The PIC will then output
> the correct signal to the dash. Anyone done anything like this? Any
> suggestions?
It's a straightforward problem, but will be a lot of work. Luckily,
you're just driving a "guess gauge" so accuracy is not paramount.
Voltage is a poor indicator.
--
Lee A. Hart Ring the bells that still can ring
814 8th Ave. N. Forget your perfect offering
Sartell, MN 56377 USA There is a crack in everything
leeahart_at_earthlink.net That's how the light gets in -- Leonard
Cohen
--- End Message ---
