EV Digest 3430
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: A-hrs vs W-hrs
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Tour de Sol Press Release
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless plug
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: FW: ACPropulsion combo on eBay
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: ACPropulsion combo on eBay
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: New Car or Not (Was Tom Hanks = Big EV Fan)
by "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) alternate fuel vehicle day
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: 1993 Soleq Escort for sale
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless plug
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: alternate fuel vehicle day
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 1993 Escort for sale web page
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Symptoms of a bad battery in a string
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: New Car or Not (Was Tom Hanks = Big EV Fan)
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
20) Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless plug
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless plug
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
David,
JB's original design was able to monitor up to 28 batteries, based on a pic
processor, on two boards. The current version is greatly reduced in size,
improved in speed, based on a micro processor, as a single board form, and
can monitor up to 15 batteries.
The Sparrows have only 13 batteries, so this fits within the specs. I've
been using it to monitor 14 batteries in my modified Sparrow. His design can
handle straight string up to 15 or two parallel strings of 7 each (leaving a
gap for resetting the reference point for the second string).
He has the capability to address longer strings of batteries, but no one has
requested and worked with him to create a larger version. But his original
design was created for his Porsche conversion with a 20-battery string
(http://www.jstraubel.com/944EV/EVproject.htm).
Currently I'm working on installing an 8v version in a Kewet upgrade, with
two parallel strings of 6-8v batteries, probably the only NiZn Evercel
batteries this EV will ever have :-(. Monitor scaling adjusted to show .125v
increments, from 5.5v to 9.5v range.
And my Sparrow is going through an upgrade to a 25-12v string.Using two
monitor packages, one to monitor #1-10 and the other for #11-25. Can view up
to 15 vertical bars through a standard 3" dia gauge opening in the dash. So
the left display will have 10 batteries plus the standard 5 columns of
reference information. Should work out faily well. Will post pictures when
completed.
The standard monitors display from 9.0v to 15.0v, which is wonderful for
viewing the full discharge and recharge window. AGM discharge, from about
13v down to 10.5v at rest, or down to 9.0v under load (don't want to get
there, but batteries do age and lose capacity). And 12v up to 15.0v, which
is just past the reg's kicking in. All in real time, without problems of
noise, etc. Execellent method for determining range at a more granular level
than an E-meter or any amp/volt gauge, since you can easily determine the
limitations of the weakest battery.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
Jellybean Sparrow
revived Kewet
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/30/04 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
Thanks for promoting this Danny, its way cool and JB should be very
proud of such a nicely done and potentially useful product. I just wish it
could handle more than 13 batteries so it would be useful for my apps. I can
see a use for something like this both in my G-van and on the bench. I think
a way to graphically monitor each battery while under load would be very
useful in making up packs and in ones EV to prevent early battery death.
Good luck in your endeavor Joseph. Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
> http://www.jstraubel.com/batbox/monitor.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> If you just say you have 20 kWh pack, everyone
> knows how far it will get you - 96V system or 336V,
> also regardless of chemistry.
this was basically my point.
if my car averages 200 whr/mile then I know that a 20
kWh pack will get me 100 miles range.
if I am given A-hr capacity, it is useless unless I
know the voltage (not only the nominal voltage, but
also actual voltages under load).
anyway, that was my point. I prefer energy capacity
over current capacity as a metric of battery energy
storage.
~Fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Date: April 1, 2004 Contacts: Jack Groh, 401-732-1551
Release: Immediate Nancy Hazard, 413-774-6051x18
Web Info: www.TourdeSol.org
www.nesea.org
GREEN TRANSPORTATION FESTIVAL SHOWCASES
CLEAN VEHICLES OF THE PRESENT AND THE NEAR FUTURE:
FESTIVAL SITES PROVIDE VEHICLE DISPLAYS, EXHIBITS
AND COMPETITIVE EVENTS
GREENFIELD, Mass. - The longest-running "green" vehicle event in the United
States opens its gates to the public for several days this May in the New York-
New Jersey area. The Tour de Sol: The Great American Green Transportation
Festival will include competitive events for vehicles from across the country
as well as three days of free exhibits and festivals for the general public.
"When we began this event 16 years ago, clean transportation was a good
idea - but only an idea," according to Nancy Hazard, director of the Northeast
Sustainable Energy Association, organizer of the event. "Over the past few
years, things have changed dramatically. There are now several very popular
hybrid cars and buses and over a half dozen electric bikes on the market. By
the end of this year, five more new hybrid models will be available." Many of
these vehicles will be available for test drives and test rides at the Tour de
Sol. Also on display will be environmental, energy, and transportation
exhibits and dozens of experimental advanced vehicles built by auto
manufacturers, independent designers, and enthusiastic teams of college and
high school students.
Major manufacturers represented at this year's Tour de Sol include
General Motors, Honda, Toyota, Ford, and Allison Transmission.
While the vehicle designs are exciting to look at, The Green
Transportation Festival is more than a beauty contest. Over the course of five
days, vehicles will compete for cash prizes and for the prestige of a Tour de
Sol trophy. The competition focuses on two types of prizes: "green" prizes and
consumer satisfaction prizes. Green prizes recognize vehicles with lower
greenhouse gas emissions and higher fuel efficiency (miles per gallon
equivalent). Consumer satisfaction prizes are awarded for handling,
acceleration, reliability, and range (a measure of how far you can travel
before needing to refuel.) Additional prizes will be given to the best
performing vehicle using bio-diesel fuel and the best performing vehicle using
lead-acid batteries.
"Everyone already knows that these new hybrids are better for the environment
and that they can reduce our dependence on foreign oil," says Hazard. "What
they're discovering now is that these vehicles also out-perform some of their
gasoline-only counterparts." The Honda Civic Hybrid, for example, out-
accelerates its gas-only version and requires fewer stops at the gas station.
As performance has soared, so has popularity. Public demand for the new Toyota
Prius, that gets over 50 miles per gallon, has people willing to put up with a
waiting list just to get behind the wheel of one.
One of the most interesting displays this year is expected to be the
brand new Ford Hybrid Escape sport utility vehicle. It's not even on the
market yet, but Tour de Sol visitors will get a chance to see it up close and
in person at the New Jersey and New York City events.
The Tour de Sol: The Great American Green Transportation Festival opens to the
public in Burlington City, NJ on Saturday, May 22 at the city's Riverfront
Promenade where it will be part of the city's annual Burlington Day Festival.
Burlington Day includes entertainment, food, craft and antiques exhibits, and
children's activities. The new light rail line that connects Burlington City
to Camden and Trenton provides easy transportation to and from the Festival.
On Monday, May 24, Tour de Sol vehicles will be on display in downtown Trenton,
in front of the New Jersey State Museum. A final display and awards ceremony
is planned for New York City on May 25.
General Motors Corporation and the New Jersey Board of Public Utilities are the
sustainable energy partner sponsors of the 2004 Tour de Sol. Supporting
sponsors include the Federal Highway Administration, Ford Motor Company,
American Honda Motor Company, the New York Power Authority, the New York State
Energy Research and Development Authority, the New York State Department of
Environmental Conservation, Toyota Motor Sales, USA, and the U.S. Environmental
Protection Agency.
The annual Tour de Sol is organized by the Northeast Sustainable Energy
Association (NESEA) headquartered in Greenfield, Massachusetts. NESEA is the
nation's leading advocacy and education association promoting awareness,
understanding, development, and adoption of non-polluting, renewable energy
technologies. NESEA has worked successfully in the fields of transportation,
building construction, and renewable energy for nearly 30 years.
For more information on Tour de Sol events, greener vehicles, school field trip
opportunities, free educational resources, volunteer opportunities, and NESEA's
Green Car Club go to www.TourdeSol.org, www.nesea.org or call 413-774-6051.
--
Mike Bianchi
read the Tour de Sol Reports: www.Foveal.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In the wiring section he says "Nothing more than a 100 mA fast fuse is
needed." I hope he realizes that the fuse needs to be rated for DC at the
pack voltage and not just something from the local automotive store.
Otherwise it looks like a nice clean system at least for a beta version. I
have not looked at the installation guide. I am not really into downloading
Word docs.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote;
<snip>
>
>Scary things for me are:
>
>* 336 volts - I need to get my head around playing with that type
of voltage.
Try thinking of it as only 28 Orbitals instead.
>
>
>Also interesting that it appears to be air cooled... wonder how
long it can really sustain the 150 kW peaks with just the fans?
I would think it will last longer than whatever road your on that
allows that kind of power level to be applied (speed limits),
unless you're planning on towing some tractor-trailers uphill. ;-)
I'm not trying to spend your money for you Jim, but it sounds like
your interested in this. I've been in this kind of boat before,
you'll end up going damn, damn, damn I new I should've bought that
thing when it was available....
I don't think ACProp will let one of their babies sit around broke
for long. Especially not when a list member owns it. Could you
imagine what would happen to Rich's little green box sales if he
wasn't so open to fixing them promptly, (even if most of the
faults are operator error)?
Stay Charged!
Hump
P.S. I have no affiliation with the seller, or ACPropulsion.
>
>
>Jorg Brown wrote:
>
>>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?
ViewItem&item=24690077
>>>4
><Snip>
>> It isn't one-of-a-kind. I know - I have one, too. The eBay
price is
>> less than what I paid for mine, and a lot less than what they
cost new
>> (they were originally over $30,000) There is a third in a
tZero in
>> Northern California, and ACP built a number of them into cars
>> custom-made for people who wanted a specific car (VW Golf among
them)
>> converted.
>>
>> Support is only a phone call / e-mail away. Start with
>> www.acpropulsion.com 's "How to Contact Us" links... they're
pretty
>> responsive.
>>
>> jorg
>>
>> ps In case it hasn't mentioned, this is the same
controller/motor
>> combo used in the tZero. I'm building mine into a 914, which
is
>> notably heavier than a tZero but, hey, I can live with 0-60 in
5
>> seconds instead of 4...
>>
>>
>
>_________
>Jim Coate
>1970's Elec-Trak
>1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
>1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
>http://www.eeevee.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> * Need for a custom motor adapter. Nothing like being the first
> on the block to make something.
Don't you always need to make a custom motor adapter?
One thing that makes the ACP drive a little more interesting is that
there's an insulation issue - something about the case of the motor
should not make electrical contact with the car chassis.
> If I follow things correctly, this might be a first generation
> unit which does not have the integrated charger / Bidirectional
> AC power interface that the later units have?
Half correct. They have an integrated charger, but it's not
bidirectional: you can't plug your TV into your car in this version.
> Also interesting that it appears to be air cooled... wonder how
> long it can really sustain the 150 kW peaks with just the fans?
> By weight, the motor isn't much bigger than the water cooled
> Seimens rated 18 KW cont, 78 KW max. Odd.
How long were you thinking of driving around with your foot to the
floor? 150kW == 200HP gets the tZero to 90mph in something like 9
seconds. The continuous power output is 50kW.
Also be aware that the motor can probably handle the load the easiest of
all the components. The heat is also an issue for the controller and
the batteries, and if you were really wanting 150kW continuous, your
batteries would be bubbling or bursting. (Unless you had a whole
ton'o'batteries with you...)
jorg
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 8:20 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ACPropulsion combo on eBay
Hmmm.. still tempting. I'm in for a few bucks on chargers off eBay and
can rationalize that as educational even if it never works and/or the
maker doesn't respond. But... $10K is a lot to gamble.
Scary things for me are:
* 336 volts - I need to get my head around playing with that type of
voltage
* Need for a custom motor adapter. Nothing like being the first on the
block to make something.
* "Sold "As-Is". No warranties expressed or implied." Big Gulp!
If I follow things correctly, this might be a first generation unit
which does not have the integrated charger / Bidirectional AC power
interface that the later units have?
Also interesting that it appears to be air cooled... wonder how long it
can really sustain the 150 kW peaks with just the fans? By weight, the
motor isn't much bigger than the water cooled Seimens rated 18 KW cont,
78 KW max. Odd.
Jorg Brown wrote:
>>http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=24690077
4
<Snip>
> It isn't one-of-a-kind. I know - I have one, too. The eBay price is
> less than what I paid for mine, and a lot less than what they cost new
> (they were originally over $30,000) There is a third in a tZero in
> Northern California, and ACP built a number of them into cars
> custom-made for people who wanted a specific car (VW Golf among them)
> converted.
>
> Support is only a phone call / e-mail away. Start with
> www.acpropulsion.com 's "How to Contact Us" links... they're pretty
> responsive.
>
> jorg
>
> ps In case it hasn't mentioned, this is the same controller/motor
combo
> used in the tZero. I'm building mine into a 914, which is notably
> heavier than a tZero but, hey, I can live with 0-60 in 5 seconds
instead
> of 4...
>
>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude Anthony
wrote:
>
>According to the IRS, you can have the tax rebate only for "new"
cars.
>A car is new if and only if the car has never been used for any
other purpose. I can't imagine what you'd use a car without an
engine for, so I'd guess a car that never had an ICE isn't a
conversion, but rather a "new" car by the IRS definition.
>Judebert
>
That's true, but not entirely. If you have a car with 75,000
(arbitrary) miles on it then it's obviously not new, however if
you convert it to electric and then apply for a new title as
a "new" electric vehicle, then by the IRS rules it is new and you
can take the credit.
New Title(VIN) == New Car. It might not seem exactly right, but
it's allowed.
If you do the conversion and "register" it as an electric car, but
still retain the original VIN, then it is simply a used car that
underwent conversion. But the VIN would be innacurate, because in
most cars today the engine size/type is included as a code in the
VIN.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check out www.nationalafvdayodyssey.org It is held on April2nd. It
has 85 locations across the US.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
www.austinev.org/evalbum/186.html
Is the proper link. Just missing the l. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 2:05 PM
Subject: 1993 Soleq Escort for sale
>
> Hey all:
>
> I am selling my 1993 Ford Escort Stationwagon professionally converted to
electric by Soleq Corporation. It can be seen at
www.austinev.org/evalbum/186.htm and can be contacted in care of me offline
at:
>
> Jim Donovan
> Westwood KS (KCMO area)
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 913.236.9466
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
Your needs are the exception rather than the rule/main-stream among EVs.
Your G-van is a high-voltage (>300v) beast with a double string. According
to the EValbum, you currently have 36 12v batteries.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355.html
Original configuration - 36 x 12v delphi = 432v/2 strings = 216v nominal
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355g.jpg
Replaced configuration - 36 x 12v optima = 216v nominal
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355h.jpg
That's a lot of batteries! Your single string consists of 18 batteries.
Maybe you can work with JB to get two monitors, one to handle each string.
Only other EVs which might have a similar need would be vehicles like the
Dolphin Prisms, with something like two strings of 26 hawkers. But most EVs
either have flooded 6v (which this monitor might work for) or AGM/GEL 12v
(focus of this product).
My impression is this product works best for low internal resistance, high
performance, AGMs (since you want to proctect your battery pack
investment). AGMs typically cost 2-4+ times more expensive than floodeds.
The resistance means that the voltage sag would be minimized and you need to
protect how low the voltage goes, since you cannot add anything to adjust
for decreased capacity.
I can see why you (David) would like better battery management, since to
replace your pack is a major expense - >$5k. Better to replace the weak
links if you can properly identify them, before they affect adjacent
batteries or even the whole pack.
BR,
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB -
shameless plug
Thanks for promoting this Danny, its way cool and JB should be very proud of
such a nicely done and potentially useful product. I just wish it could
handle more than 13 batteries so it would be useful for my apps. I can see a
use for something like this both in my G-van and on the bench. I think a way
to graphically monitor each battery while under load would be very useful in
making up packs and in ones EV to prevent early battery death. Good luck in
your endeavor Joseph. Regards, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 11:05 AM
Subject: alternate fuel vehicle day
> Check out www.nationalafvdayodyssey.org It is held on April2nd.
It
> has 85 locations across the US.
>
Hi EVerybody;
Just opened this one up, Gees! In New Haven EVen, wrote them at Gateway
Tech that I drive by, electrically, the place on my way to the train. Soooo
we'll see what happens?? Thanks for the link!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey all:
I appreciate all the notes on not getting the link to work. Please try this one for
the 93 EV I will be selling:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/186.html
Thanks,
Jim
________________________________________________________________
The best thing to hit the Internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
Surf the Web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:37 PM
Subject: Re: "Gone Postal" update
> > Roderick
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
>
> Just got off the Cell with Rod....
> He now Knows about "Torque Steer" That funny feeling of not knowing
> Which Ditch a OVER powered front driver wants to hide in.
> Goldie drives just like this... hops from tire to tire, and trys to take
> your wrists off with the steering wheel.
> "We must have twice the torque we did at Vegas"
> Yea Rod... we have a good motor now, and I gave you 1800 motor amps on
> it.
> And he barked the back belts... again, Down to 2.375 Back drive belts
> now.
> Chain
> Chain
> Chain!!!
> Gears! gears!or , at least,HD industrial chain! Somthing of Real Steel.
Dennis runs that in Current Eliminater, and he doesn't break it too often!
My two teeth worth!
Bob
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 3/30/2004 9:14:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And he barked the back belts... again, Down to 2.375 Back drive belts
> now.
> Chain
> Chain
> Chain!!!
> Gears! gears!or , at least,HD industrial chain! Somthing of Real Steel.
Dennis runs that in Current Eliminater, and he doesn't break it too often!
My two teeth worth!
Bob
Dennis isn't trying to move a 4,000 Pound vehicle either...........
Jim electricdragster.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hm. If his design sends the battery data via a RS232 link, then I wonder
if it can simply be extended to N batteries and instead of using a
dedicated display could be plugged into a standard PC.
I'm interested in a 50 battery solution. My pack is down to 20 miles
range (from 30-40) and I need to figure out if this is one or two bad
batteries or if the Hawkers simply are dying after a year and 5k miles.
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David,
JB's original design was able to monitor up to 28 batteries, based on a pic
processor, on two boards. The current version is greatly reduced in size,
improved in speed, based on a micro processor, as a single board form, and
can monitor up to 15 batteries.
The Sparrows have only 13 batteries, so this fits within the specs. I've
been using it to monitor 14 batteries in my modified Sparrow. His design can
handle straight string up to 15 or two parallel strings of 7 each (leaving a
gap for resetting the reference point for the second string).
He has the capability to address longer strings of batteries, but no one has
requested and worked with him to create a larger version. But his original
design was created for his Porsche conversion with a 20-battery string
(http://www.jstraubel.com/944EV/EVproject.htm).
Currently I'm working on installing an 8v version in a Kewet upgrade, with
two parallel strings of 6-8v batteries, probably the only NiZn Evercel
batteries this EV will ever have :-(. Monitor scaling adjusted to show .125v
increments, from 5.5v to 9.5v range.
And my Sparrow is going through an upgrade to a 25-12v string.Using two
monitor packages, one to monitor #1-10 and the other for #11-25. Can view up
to 15 vertical bars through a standard 3" dia gauge opening in the dash. So
the left display will have 10 batteries plus the standard 5 columns of
reference information. Should work out faily well. Will post pictures when
completed.
The standard monitors display from 9.0v to 15.0v, which is wonderful for
viewing the full discharge and recharge window. AGM discharge, from about
13v down to 10.5v at rest, or down to 9.0v under load (don't want to get
there, but batteries do age and lose capacity). And 12v up to 15.0v, which
is just past the reg's kicking in. All in real time, without problems of
noise, etc. Execellent method for determining range at a more granular level
than an E-meter or any amp/volt gauge, since you can easily determine the
limitations of the weakest battery.
BR,
Ed Thorpe
Jellybean Sparrow
revived Kewet
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 3/30/04 2:26 AM
Subject: Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
Thanks for promoting this Danny, its way cool and JB should be very
proud of such a nicely done and potentially useful product. I just wish it
could handle more than 13 batteries so it would be useful for my apps. I can
see a use for something like this both in my G-van and on the bench. I think
a way to graphically monitor each battery while under load would be very
useful in making up packs and in ones EV to prevent early battery death.
Good luck in your endeavor Joseph. Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
http://www.jstraubel.com/batbox/monitor.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question: What are the typical symptoms of a bad battery in a string?
Does the whole pack poop out at once, or is it a plateau of downed
performance?
The Prizm pack (300 volts, 52ah) is currently down to 20ah max. As in it
will stay above 300 [EMAIL PROTECTED] till about 15-16ah. Once it passes the
300 volt at 60ampp draw, the performance literally falls like a
proverbial rock. By 20ah, the pack is dragging 260 volts at 60amps.
However at 1ah load the pack's voltage is around 308-310 volts.
Can a single bad battery in a string sink the string that much, that
fast? Would one hear it hissing and foaming (I don't) or would it do
something else?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
bobrice wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, March 29, 2004 11:37 PM
> Subject: Re: "Gone Postal" update
>
> > > Roderick
> > > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >
> > Just got off the Cell with Rod....
> > He now Knows about "Torque Steer" That funny feeling of not knowing
> > Which Ditch a OVER powered front driver wants to hide in.
> > Goldie drives just like this... hops from tire to tire, and trys to take
> > your wrists off with the steering wheel.
> > "We must have twice the torque we did at Vegas"
> > Yea Rod... we have a good motor now, and I gave you 1800 motor amps on
> > it.
> > And he barked the back belts... again, Down to 2.375 Back drive belts
> > now.
> > Chain
> > Chain
> > Chain!!!
> > Gears! gears!or , at least,HD industrial chain! Somthing of Real Steel.
> Dennis runs that in Current Eliminater, and he doesn't break it too often!
>
> My two teeth worth!
>
> Bob
>
Dennis uses a killer Nitro Bike chain that is like #60 industrial, but a
lot stronger, and a LOT more expensive.
Most of the bike EV are using #60 industrial. and are having few
problems, since they are not making really high amounts of torque...READ
stock motors, and 2000 amps or less.
Nobody's broken chains except Dennis, and well Dave did on his old
rail.
So... The chain that fits, is tripple #40, "it's 1.3 times as strong as
a single #60" So says FT. Also the sprockets fit in the GP rear drive
case.. Kind of a important item... 11,000 lbs of tension is the working
limit. This is about %30 of the fail limit. And we can swap it out, and
replace chain without taking the whole drive shafts out.
If you say the motors make 400 ft lbs at 2000 amps, and you have a 4:1
ratio, this gives a nice 1600 lbs of torque on the half saft, but The
drive sprocket is 2.7 incher in diameter, so...That gives 3555. lbs of
chain tension. That's a pretty good safety margin. Now if you use 800
Ftlbs you get 7111, Still a rather good margin. The Belts had less than
a 2 inch Diameter... this give a LOT more tension.... part of the
problem. So it looks like chain can do it cheap and easy. I Hope we
don't skip a tripple chain, that would be really bad!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, a thought: What about monitoring every four batteries in the
string or something like that? With 50 batteries you're talking 13
monitors tops.
And one could probably spot a stinker battery in a quad of four. At
least under acceleration; if you see one set of four that is lower than
the others you have a good idea of what to replace.
Thoughts? I'm probably going to drop my pack in the next month or two
and I'd like to put *something* in to monitor the voltages. Getting
tired of guessing what's going on in there :-)
Chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
David,
Your needs are the exception rather than the rule/main-stream among EVs.
Your G-van is a high-voltage (>300v) beast with a double string. According
to the EValbum, you currently have 36 12v batteries.
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355.html
Original configuration - 36 x 12v delphi = 432v/2 strings = 216v nominal
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355g.jpg
Replaced configuration - 36 x 12v optima = 216v nominal
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355h.jpg
That's a lot of batteries! Your single string consists of 18 batteries.
Maybe you can work with JB to get two monitors, one to handle each string.
Only other EVs which might have a similar need would be vehicles like the
Dolphin Prisms, with something like two strings of 26 hawkers. But most EVs
either have flooded 6v (which this monitor might work for) or AGM/GEL 12v
(focus of this product).
My impression is this product works best for low internal resistance, high
performance, AGMs (since you want to proctect your battery pack
investment). AGMs typically cost 2-4+ times more expensive than floodeds.
The resistance means that the voltage sag would be minimized and you need to
protect how low the voltage goes, since you cannot add anything to adjust
for decreased capacity.
I can see why you (David) would like better battery management, since to
replace your pack is a major expense - >$5k. Better to replace the weak
links if you can properly identify them, before they affect adjacent
batteries or even the whole pack.
BR,
Ed
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB -
shameless plug
Thanks for promoting this Danny, its way cool and JB should be very proud of
such a nicely done and potentially useful product. I just wish it could
handle more than 13 batteries so it would be useful for my apps. I can see a
use for something like this both in my G-van and on the bench. I think a way
to graphically monitor each battery while under load would be very useful in
making up packs and in ones EV to prevent early battery death. Good luck in
your endeavor Joseph. Regards, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I looked into the CA EV tax credit with my Tropica and didn't qualify.
I've pasted in part of their letter below. The problem I ran into is that
they need to work with the manufacturer to determine what the increase in
the cost of the vehicle was due to it being electric. In the case of the
Tropica, there was no one left to talk to.
Steve
"Regarding your email, in order for an electric vehicle
to receive a grant through the ZEV Incentive Program, it must be a new car.
It must also be certified as a zero emission vehicle by the ARB, it must be
registered with the DMV, and we must have the incremental cost of the
vehicle from the California Energy Commission. Our current list of eligible
vehicles, does not include the vehicle you mention. If you'd like to learn
more about some of the clean air vehicle incentives, please visit
www.zevinfo.com"
In a message dated 3/30/2004 10:20:26 AM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
>
>
>
> Jude Anthony
> wrote:
> >
> >According to the IRS, you can have the tax rebate only for "new"
> cars.
> >A car is new if and only if the car has never been used for any
> other purpose. I can't imagine what you'd use a car without an
> engine for, so I'd guess a car that never had an ICE isn't a
> conversion, but rather a "new" car by the IRS definition.
>
>
> >Judebert
> >
> That's true, but not entirely. If you have a car with 75,000
> (arbitrary) miles on it then it's obviously not new, however if
> you convert it to electric and then apply for a new title as
> a "new" electric vehicle, then by the IRS rules it is new and you
> can take the credit.
>
> New Title(VIN) == New Car. It might not seem exactly right, but
> it's allowed.
>
> If you do the conversion and "register" it as an electric car, but
> still retain the original VIN, then it is simply a used car that
> underwent conversion. But the VIN would be innacurate, because in
> most cars today the engine size/type is included as a code
> in the
> VIN.
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> In a message dated 3/30/2004 9:14:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> And he barked the back belts... again, Down to 2.375 Back drive belts
> > now.
> > Chain
> > Chain
> > Chain!!!
> > Gears! gears!or , at least,HD industrial chain! Somthing of Real Steel.
> Dennis runs that in Current Eliminater, and he doesn't break it too often!
>
> My two teeth worth!
>
> Bob
> Dennis isn't trying to move a 4,000 Pound vehicle either...........
>
> Jim electricdragster.com
4340 without driver.. with 3 motors, 3 entire drive trains, 40
batteries, and 2 2000 amp Zillas.
The areo of at least 2 full sheets of plywood going the hard way through
the air. Yea a bit better than a Barn, but close.
Either end of our Gone Poastal van is making about 2x the Hp that Dennis
is at his 12.99 Bracket tune.
Dennis would be a LOT more mortal if he made his life as complicated as
We are.
The point is not to beat Dennis but to do as best we can with the setup
we have. Gone Poastal is clearly NOT a all time speed record machine,
but it is, and will be one Damn Fast EV!
Only the dragsters and one Bike will be faster.
Even Dennis says we could do a Sub 10 if we could stick 700 Hp for the
full pull. Well lets see how close we can get.
With 1800 amps on the front end it's now Scarrey to drive, And this is
without the back drive at more than 1000 amps.
It looks like the torque gets Funny Big beyond 1250 amps. Kinda what
Otmar showed with his Cal pop e.
I still wish we had ring and pinions on both ends of GP...
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gee, that looks similar to mine except mine displays the voltages in 10ths
of volts instead of bar graphs.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Danny Ames" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV SEND MSG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:06 AM
Subject: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless plug
> Fellow EV drivers.
> I have nothing to do with JB except he makes a dam good monitor and I
> want my own.
> Having seen it first hand you would want one to.
> You should really consider this item for your EV.
> http://www.jstraubel.com/batbox/monitor.htm
> JB is a brilliant engineering student at Stanford and has made a low
> cost for what it does battery monitor system.
> Really it is so slick because you can tell visually at a glance on a
> much granular level about the state of each battery under load and if
> they are being charged properly. It's so sweet seeing the graph display
> 15 AGM's on one little screen I saw them at Ed Thorpe's house last Sat.
> Craftsmanship is excellent.
> Implementation is simple.
> But JB can only do so many to make it worth the time and hold the cost.
> I have contacted him today and to see if he is taking request for
> another run and have requested two for myself.
> He is trying to get a few more so he can justified another production
> run.
> If you don't order yours for yourself you may miss out.
> This is a great way to protect your battery investment and keep your EV
> driving on the road.
> Don't lose out and regret not being able to have obtained this fine tool
> that is truly unique and super useful.
> Do I sound like shameless advertisement or what.
> Danny Ames
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes we will be trying triple row chains next but first I am going to replace
the two right belts and give it some street time. It is becoming quite
obvious that we won't be able to reliably use belts with this rear drive. I
had really hoped they would work as they are so silent. There is nothing
like silent power. If the chains work out we could enclose the case and run
them in an oil bath. That would make them a great deal quieter. I can't wait
to feel full power! We still have a lot of pounds to shed and upgrades to
install. Its going to remain a fun project. The purpose is to show the
general public that if you can make a box fly then get them to wondering
what one could do with a light aerodynamic vehicle. Let them think it's
their own idea. You'll get many more converts to EVs that way.
Roderick
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 10:03 AM
Subject: Re: "Gone Postal" update, comments
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> > In a message dated 3/30/2004 9:14:37 AM Pacific Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> > And he barked the back belts... again, Down to 2.375 Back drive belts
> > > now.
> > > Chain
> > > Chain
> > > Chain!!!
> > > Gears! gears!or , at least,HD industrial chain! Somthing of Real
Steel.
> > Dennis runs that in Current Eliminater, and he doesn't break it too
often!
> >
> > My two teeth worth!
> >
> > Bob
> > Dennis isn't trying to move a 4,000 Pound vehicle either...........
> >
> > Jim electricdragster.com
>
> 4340 without driver.. with 3 motors, 3 entire drive trains, 40
> batteries, and 2 2000 amp Zillas.
> The areo of at least 2 full sheets of plywood going the hard way through
> the air. Yea a bit better than a Barn, but close.
>
> Either end of our Gone Poastal van is making about 2x the Hp that Dennis
> is at his 12.99 Bracket tune.
> Dennis would be a LOT more mortal if he made his life as complicated as
> We are.
> The point is not to beat Dennis but to do as best we can with the setup
> we have. Gone Poastal is clearly NOT a all time speed record machine,
> but it is, and will be one Damn Fast EV!
> Only the dragsters and one Bike will be faster.
> Even Dennis says we could do a Sub 10 if we could stick 700 Hp for the
> full pull. Well lets see how close we can get.
> With 1800 amps on the front end it's now Scarrey to drive, And this is
> without the back drive at more than 1000 amps.
>
>
> It looks like the torque gets Funny Big beyond 1250 amps. Kinda what
> Otmar showed with his Cal pop e.
>
> I still wish we had ring and pinions on both ends of GP...
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pretty much hit the nail on the head Ed. The cargo van (the one in the
album) is the one with Delphis and that van is down for the lack of a couple
of replacement batteries. I have at least 2 weak ones, rest are pretty good.
This monitor might have let me try and get a few cycles on the pack and see
if the weak ones would come back or at least give me some functionality. The
cargo van has the Optima "P" YTs and we recently pulled the plug on them and
emptied out the pack rack and at Rich's suggestion am simply going to
recycle the lead lumps. Either way the battery replacement decision is a
daunting one. That is why I am trying to find some salvaged/used large
Ni-cad modules for at least the cargo unit. But in addition to monitoring
the vans packs "on the fly" I think something like Joesephs unit would be a
great bench tool for evaluating batteries under load in a pack enviroment. I
am thinking of cobbling something together as a bench tool if I can find
something like a 24 bar display. Then I can test a complete pack of Ni-cads
or most any AGM pack I plan to play with. Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB - shameless
plug
> David,
>
> Your needs are the exception rather than the rule/main-stream among EVs.
> Your G-van is a high-voltage (>300v) beast with a double string. According
> to the EValbum, you currently have 36 12v batteries.
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355.html
>
> Original configuration - 36 x 12v delphi = 432v/2 strings = 216v nominal
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355g.jpg
> Replaced configuration - 36 x 12v optima = 216v nominal
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/355h.jpg
>
> That's a lot of batteries! Your single string consists of 18 batteries.
> Maybe you can work with JB to get two monitors, one to handle each string.
>
> Only other EVs which might have a similar need would be vehicles like the
> Dolphin Prisms, with something like two strings of 26 hawkers. But most
EVs
> either have flooded 6v (which this monitor might work for) or AGM/GEL 12v
> (focus of this product).
>
> My impression is this product works best for low internal resistance, high
> performance, AGMs (since you want to proctect your battery pack
> investment). AGMs typically cost 2-4+ times more expensive than floodeds.
> The resistance means that the voltage sag would be minimized and you need
to
> protect how low the voltage goes, since you cannot add anything to adjust
> for decreased capacity.
>
> I can see why you (David) would like better battery management, since to
> replace your pack is a major expense - >$5k. Better to replace the weak
> links if you can properly identify them, before they affect adjacent
> batteries or even the whole pack.
>
> BR,
> Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of David Chapman
> Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 2:26 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Hot EV BMS tool - Battery Monitor System from JB -
> shameless plug
>
>
> Thanks for promoting this Danny, its way cool and JB should be very proud
of
> such a nicely done and potentially useful product. I just wish it could
> handle more than 13 batteries so it would be useful for my apps. I can see
a
> use for something like this both in my G-van and on the bench. I think a
way
> to graphically monitor each battery while under load would be very useful
in
> making up packs and in ones EV to prevent early battery death. Good luck
in
> your endeavor Joseph. Regards, David Chapman.
>
--- End Message ---
