EV Digest 3436
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Possible donor car
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New Maxwell ultracaps
by John RA Benson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
by "Ed Thorpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Bypass or replace?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: step up transformer and zivans?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: step up transformer
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OTish: Re: EVLN(h2 Prius) - no ethanol, yes gridable
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN, now Nimh & Nicd Self Discharge Rates
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: step up transformer and zivans?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 1 charger 2 packs ?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV Hovercraft
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EVLN, now Nimh & Nicd Self Discharge Rates
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) data on the Panasonic batteries from GM EVII
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV Hovercraft
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: data on the Panasonic batteries from GM EVII
by "Ed Thorpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: New Car or Not
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: data on the Panasonic batteries from GM EVII
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Info needed on EV surplus (the guys with the Hawkers)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Info needed on EV surplus (the guys with the Hawkers)
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The Alfa Romeo Alfetta is a rear wheel drive car with close to a perfect
50/50 weight distribution. The transmission is mated to the rear diff. In
stock form, it is a great handling car. There are a lot of after market
upgrade parts like rally springs that would help with the extra weight of
batteries. I think it would make a very interesting conversion.
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 30, 2004 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: Possible donor car
> I drove an Alfetta converted to EV last summer. It is a different
> mechanical layout. If I remember correctly, the transmission and
> differential are one unit. The shifter is cable activated. I considered
> buying it but backed out.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "T Humphrey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 11:41 AM
> Subject: Possible donor car
>
>
> > Is anyone here familiar with the Alfa Romeo, Alfetta GT. I found
> > one in the weeds (literally, during the summer, you cannot see
> > this car, so the interior may be shot). I really like the exterior
> > styling of it, and may consider it a donor car for an EV project.
> >
> > I haven't taken a real close look at it yet, if anyone on the list
> > has any first hand knowledge of these and can say go for it, or
> > forget it, I would appreciate the advise.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Stay Charged!
> > Hump
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been reading the list that much lately, but did a quick search of
my archive to see if there was any talk of this ultracap - didn't see any,
so I thought this might be of interest.
I just got this product announcement, and it seems very promising.
http://www.maxwell.com/go/dcell.html
Basically, it's a 350 F 2.5 V capacitor in a "D" cell form factor.
Presumably (from following a link), pricing is at $15/1000. Cool.
Jrab
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also check out www.esma.cap.com
These can run a 10 ton vehicle for 10 miles!!!
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "John RA Benson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:59 AM
Subject: New Maxwell ultracaps
> I haven't been reading the list that much lately, but did a quick search
> of
> my archive to see if there was any talk of this ultracap - didn't see any,
> so I thought this might be of interest.
>
> I just got this product announcement, and it seems very promising.
>
> http://www.maxwell.com/go/dcell.html
>
> Basically, it's a 350 F 2.5 V capacitor in a "D" cell form factor.
> Presumably (from following a link), pricing is at $15/1000. Cool.
>
> Jrab
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At first I thought this was an April Fool prank (if you go to this site, it's a
website selling hats), but after a bit of googling I found the correct URL:
http://esma-cap.com (dash instead of dot.)
These look really cool. How complex would it be to take advantage of
capacitors, in a vehicle with less powerful batteries (flooded LA, lithium-ion,
etc)? Could you simply add a set (enough to at least match your pack voltage)
in parallel, or would you need some sort of controller to prevent the capacitors
from pulling juice too quickly from the batteries?
--eeyore
Quoting Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> Also check out www.esma.cap.com
>
> These can run a 10 ton vehicle for 10 miles!!!
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "John RA Benson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 8:59 AM
> Subject: New Maxwell ultracaps
>
>
> > I haven't been reading the list that much lately, but did a quick search
> > of
> > my archive to see if there was any talk of this ultracap - didn't see any,
> > so I thought this might be of interest.
> >
> > I just got this product announcement, and it seems very promising.
> >
> > http://www.maxwell.com/go/dcell.html
> >
> > Basically, it's a 350 F 2.5 V capacitor in a "D" cell form factor.
> > Presumably (from following a link), pricing is at $15/1000. Cool.
> >
> > Jrab
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think you meant http://www.esma-cap.com/
-Ryan
Roland Wiench wrote:
Also check out www.esma.cap.com
These can run a 10 ton vehicle for 10 miles!!!
Roland
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Elaine,
The Zivan charger is programmed in a chip. You cannot make changes yourself;
must be configured/reprogrammed by an authorized distributer, like the one
in Sacramento. Don't know if there are other jumper, etc which must be set,
but it's not something for the enduser manipulation.
Chargers are packaged and sold for specific pack requirements. That's why
several EVers have gravitated to the ManzanitaMicro (aka Rudman) PFC
chargers, because this new chargers allow flexibilty to adjust to the
changing configuration of conversion EVs.
You would need to contact the distrubuter to find out what's involved with
switching out different programmed chips or other variations for the Zivan.
-Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, March 31, 2004 11:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
is it possible to change the zivan input myself, or does the dealer
have to do this, too?
ideally, I'd like to be able to switch it back and forth. Is that too
difficult?
elaine
(still plotting for charging at work on my next EV.)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This isn't t-zero but it will be 78 kWh pack! 260
> miles
> > at 300 Wh/mile. Practical honest limit - perhaps
> half of it.
>
> OK, you got me Victor! ;^>
>
> I am somewhat skeptical of what the actual peak
> power of a 156V
> string of the 500Ah cells would be at 1000A load due
> to voltage
> sag... perhaps 50-70kW?
50 kW implies that the Li-Ions sag to 50 V under 1000A
load. I know they sag a lot, but that is pretty
extreme.
notice that Victor's 78 is 'kWh'. He is talking about
capacity, not peak power.
> Can you explain why you think the addition of a
> DC/DC would cause the
> capacitors to be beneficial even with low resistance
> batteries?
The only reason that Victors simple common bus
Capacitor/battery hybrid system works is because the
battery's voltage sags enough under load to bias the
current draw towards the Caps. If you have a stiffer
battery voltage, the caps will barely contribute
anything to the acceleration. You will effectively be
using a tiny portion of the energy stored in the
capacitor.
By adding an adjustable, bidirectional DC-DC
converter, you can SET the capacitor output voltage
(passed through the DC-DC) to something higher than
the battery voltage when you want to use capacitor
energy, or to something lower than the battery bus
voltage when you want to recharge the caps.
or, if your drive accepts a wide range of input
voltages, you can put the DC-DC on the battery leg of
the bus. I am not sure what advantages that has, but
...
make sense ?
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the correction. The web address still took me directly to ESMA.
My search bar does list the complete web addresses when I just type one word
of that address.
When you get to the ESMA site, click on APPLICATIONS and than click on
ELECTRIC VEHICLES. They used supercapacitors design as EV type. Not motor
starting or any other type of capacitors.
The plate and electrolyte is different than the standard capacitors.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 9:34 AM
Subject: Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
> I think you meant http://www.esma-cap.com/
>
> -Ryan
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> >Also check out www.esma.cap.com
> >
> >These can run a 10 ton vehicle for 10 miles!!!
> >
> >Roland
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I know this has been discussed before for larger EVs, but I have a question
> about bypassing the controller on a 2-wheeled EV. I just got my wife a
> Vespa-like scooter for around town, and while the 48V pack will get it to 30
> mph (the max for mopeds anyway), it is slow-Slow-SLOW getting there. I can see
> the controller under the plastic-work, but I can't guess at its peak rating. I
> could install a beefier controller in there, but I have too many thumbs to
> trust it will work right and wondered if it might be OK if I just wire in a
> bypass contactor - would I have to have the throttle fully on when the byass is
> released, or could I just use it to get past the sluggish first 15mph of the
> hubmotor's torque curve and not worry about the controller or the motor itself?
Any idea what kind of motor it is? If it's a brushless DC, for example,
you can't bypass the controller.
If it's a brushed PM or series DC motor, then you have a chance. The
next question will be what happens to the motor, batteries, wiring, and
mechanical parts if you switched it direct. The current and torque could
be very large, and break something.
So, there are a lot of risks if you try it. But if you're willing...
You need a big SPDT switch or contactor. Wire it with the Common to the
motor, the NC contact to the controller, and the NO contact to the
battery. I would only hit that switch when the scooter was already in
motion; the peak current if you hit it at stall will likely break
something. Also, I would not "pump" the bypass switch on/off; every time
you turn it off, the controller's diodes will have to handle whatever
current the motor was just carrying, which could easily be well beyond
its normal current ratings. Once you engage 'warp speed', don't let off
on the switch until the motor has sped up enough so its current is back
down into a reasonable range.
Good luck!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> According to the EV Album, your Citicar has a Zivan NG1. The Zivan
> website says that maxes out about 1840 watts input. I would think
> a 2000 watt 120 to 220 step up transformer should be sufficient
> to allow you to charge from a standard 120 volt outlet
You're on the right track, but it's a little more complicated than that.
You size transformers by VA, not watts. Volts x Amps = VA. VA x PF =
Watts.
The Zivan is not PF (Power Factor) corrected; it has a PF of about 0.7.
So its 1840 watts input is 1840w/0.7 = 2630 VA. Thus the autotransformer
needs to be rated for at least 2630 VA. You might get away with 2500 VA,
just because the Zivan probably can't run at full power for very long,
and the autotransformer may not have time to overheat before the Zivan
cuts back anyway.
> though you will be running right at the limits of the outlet when the
> batteries are way down.
Right. A 120vac 20amp outlet can only supply 120v x 20a = 2400 VA before
the breaker trips. The more common 120vac 15amp outlets are even less.
Thus, it is very unlikely that you will be able to find a 120vac outlet
that will allow the Zivan to charge at full power, no matter what you
do. The only way would be to have a special 120vac 30amp outlet
installed. And if you're installing a special outlet, it might as well
be a 240vac outlet!
Now, there is one possible trick. The 120vac outlets in any building are
actually coming from a 240vac or 208vac service. Half the outlets are on
one side, half on the other. It is possible (though not an approved
practice!) to find *two* 120vac outlets, plug into both of them, and
have 208vac or 240vac between the two hot wires for your Zivan charger.
This is kind of a 'mad genius' trick, and unless done right, there is
serious danger if one of the plugs is plugged in and the other one is
not (the pins of the unplugged end are live!). To make this trick work,
you need a circuit that checks for the presence of 120vac on both cords
before it can connect it to the charger.
> It might be easier to add a used 48 volt golf cart charger for 120 volt
> charging. Two chargers means increased weight, but it does allow
> redundancy in case of a charger failure.
This is really the way to go. You could get a small 120vac to 48vdc
charger for onboard use when only 120vac power is available. It will be
smaller and lighter than the 120-to-240vac autotransformer you need for
the Zivan anyway.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 12:14:16 -0800 (PST)
From: Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Yep, and the 50-70kW I refer to is power, not
> capacity; my comments
> were directed at the 'spiritedness' of the
> performance a 156V 500Ah
> string of these cells would provide.
that is what i thought. i just wanted to make sure you
weren't referring to Victor's 78 kWh figure (since
mixing up power and energy units seems to be a
favorite on this list).
on to the capacitors :
> If the batteries aren't sagging under the load, then
> the caps aren't
> going to make much difference anyway, DC/DC or not.
> I don't see
> voltage sag being required to make the caps
> contribute; when
> paralleled with the batteries, the current will
> divide between the
> caps and batteries based on the internal resistance
> of each. If the
> caps have the same internal resistance as the
> batteries, then they
> will provide 1/2 the current.
unless i am missing something, i don't think this is
true. the current split is not driven only by the
relative internal resistances, but also by the
voltage. Keep in mind that capacitor voltage is a
function of SOC (much more strongly so than a
battery).
In other words, whereas the battery voltage drops
primarily because of internal resistance under load,
the capacitor voltage drops both due to internal
resistance and also SOC.
As an example, consider a parallel configuration with
a 120 V nominal battery pack in parallel with 120 V
capacitor pack of equal internal resistance (say 1
ohm). Now if I put a light load (20 A) on the common
DC bus, the voltages on both packs will sag to 100 V,
right ? but the battery can stay at this voltage and
supply current for a long time, the capacitor,
meanwhile, can't supply any current without droping
even further in voltage. Since it is in parallel with
the battery, it can't drop further in voltage
(otherwise the battery would just charge it back up).
does this example make sense ? i know it is
simplified, but I think it makes my point.
> The claim was that the capacitors can be charged and
> discharged more
> efficiently than 'any' battery, and this certainly
> does not appear to
> be true for the simple case of a string of
> capacitors connected in
> parallel with a low internal resistance pack of
> AGMs.
i think i see what you mean, and i think you are
partly correct. i don't think the actual
charge/discharge of the caps is necessarily more
efficient than a battery, but the addition of
capacitors can still help the efficieny of the whole
system.
This is because most batteries can't take a high
current charge when they are near 100% SOC. A
capacitor/battery hybrid with a DC/DC will be able to
accept significant regen at any battery SOC, while a
straight battery hybrid or a battery/capacitor hybrid
without DC/DC will not. Of course, the above depends
on the control strategy you use (target SOC for
capacitor bank etc). It turns out that this ability to
accept regen at any state of charge can have a small
but significant effect on the efficiency of a vehicle
over a drive cycle.
I hope the above makes some sense and that i am not
rambling mindlessly...it has been a long week.
~Fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
