EV Digest 3437
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV Hovercraft
by "Tim Clevenger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Info needed on EV surplus (the guys with the Hawkers)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: alternate fuel vehicle day
by Edward Kellogg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Panasonic VRLA batteries savaged from the EV1 and S10E -the history-
by Jeff Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EVLN, now Nimh & Nicd Self Discharge Rates
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Boston EVent: Toyota and Tufts present "Cars, Climate Change and
Consumerism"
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Panasonic VRLA batteries savaged from the EV1 and S10E -the history-
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EVLN, now Nimh & Nicd Self Discharge Rates
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Info needed on EV surplus (the guys with the Hawkers)
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Panasonic VRLA batteries savaged from the EV1 and S10E -the history-
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) 'ROO THE DAY
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: New Maxwell ultracaps
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: change zivan from 220 to 110 input?
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV Hovercraft
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 'ROO THE DAY
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 'ROO THE DAY
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: New Car or Not
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss) NOW Bolder batteries
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) OT: Re: 'ROO THE DAY
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: EVLN(Ford to sell hybrid Escape SUV at a loss)
by Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Elaine,
It is possible to modify a 220V Zivan to run on 110V.
This requires you to cut traces and do some soldering
on the PCB. You might also need to double the input
capacitors in the charger. This trick is often used
in cheap dual-voltage power supplies. You will
basically break the input caps into 2 series connected
banks and charge each bank separately in each half of
the AC cycle.
But, this will void your Zivan warranty and you will
loss support from the distributor. And, you will
still be pulling too much power from a 110V outlet.
And, you will have to deal with other unforseen
problems with this mod. So, why would you want to do
it?
I highly recommend the PFC series charger. At $1500,
the PFC-20 is a bargain. It allows you to use almost
any outlet, even the AVCON public charging. It is so
flexible that you could use it on almost any EV. And,
you will learn a lot more about batteries because you
could play around with different charging scheme.
And, you are more free to install other types of
batteries.
If you are planning on using your "new" EV as a daily
driver, you want to invest in a good charger. This is
even more true if you are planning to replace the
batteries on your "new" EV. You will go thru a lot of
battery packs in the life of your EV. A good charger
would pay for itself by the time you are ready for
your second pack.
Having said that, I do have a 110V Zivan K2 charger
for sale. I could help you to adjust it for your EV.
Ed Ang
--- elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> is it possible to change the zivan input myself, or
> does the dealer
> have to do this, too?
>
> ideally, I'd like to be able to switch it back and
> forth. Is that too
> difficult?
>
> elaine
>
> (still plotting for charging at work on my next EV.)
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Finance Tax Center - File online. File on time.
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sad thing is, this is only marginally more vaporware than actual FCV's. :-)
---------
Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2004 13:32:34 -0500
Subject: Re: EV Hovercraft
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
� I heard about an EV Hovercraft (over land or water) by www.Jetson.com�
that runs for 100 miles on a charge.
It's true! It's true! I read it on the net!
_________________________________________________________________
Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's it, and I just got in contact with him. Very very nice person
btw: If you have a Prizm this is the place to get batteries.
Chris
Ralph Merwin wrote:
Christopher Zach writes:
Does anyone remember the web site for that place which sold the surplus
Hawker Genesis batteries? I thought it was evsurplus.com or something
like that, but that site doesn't exist.
Try http://www.surplusev.com/
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In Southern California, check out the one in Pomona:
370 S. Thomas St. Pomona California
The Electric Vehicle Association of So. Calif. will be there, I will be
there with Cal Poly Pomona's Solar Electric Boat.
Ed Kellogg
e-mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Chat… eckellogg138 (AIM)
ICQ 243051412
Ne conjugare nobiscum.
On Mar 31, 2004, at 2:46 PM, T Humphrey wrote:
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the cat is out of the bag after the solar boys
started the Ebay auction a couple of days ago...
And I've been following the posts regarding
communications with them. Not very impressive.
A couple more months were needed to have everything in
place at EV Bones LLC. And now it is public knowledge.
It has been a panic around here since the news leaked.
We have been filling a warehouse with these Panasonic
VRLA batteries for months now.
It was important to try and keep this a secret for a
few more months, so that General Mills would not close
the gate before we had everything out of the facility.
Unfortunately, news o' the Ebay auctions has already
filtered back.
Yes, they are pulls from the notorious EV1 graveyard
at the GM proving grounds here in sunny Mesa, AZ.
VRLA batteries from both EV1 and S10 trucks have been
salvaged before the vehicles were crushed, and are now
undergoing desulfation and charging in preparation to
begin reselling at bargain prices.
No other EV1 components could be acquired. And we are
sure of that. When the EV1 crunch-fest began in Sept
03 (misinformation has it beginning in Dec 03), it
drew so much attention, that GM had to load the
partially (18 inches) crushed cars onto factory
trailers and take them to CA for recycling (smelter
bath).
To permit the initial squish, all batteries had to be
removed...
Those twitchy solar boys bought a few (3) pallets of
the VRLA batteries before we had a chance to quietly
sequester them all. 500+ EV1's, 100+ S10E's, 26
batteries per. You do the math.
Additionally, we have stock on the Ovonics NiMH
batteries. These are a reliable and long lasting
battery (10+ years estimated), and would make an
excellent power source for anyone wanting higher
energy density and less weight than PbA.
About the S10E PbA to NiMH conversion:
The BPCM (Battery Pack Control Module) in the S10E
trucks can be re-flashed to accommodate these superior
85Ah hydride batteries. Whether the battery module
dimensions are the same we don't know yet. That was
expected to have been resolved shortly, but we did not
have a PbA truck to use for reference since ours are
original NiMH.
Sadly, none of the EV1's made it out alive. A couple
of "gutted" frames did go to universities and museum
displays.
Soon, all we'll have left of the GM BEV legacy is the
S10E.
Please contact me at (480) 898-1195 for details and
availability.
Regards, Jeff Thomas , EV Bones LLC
EV batteries from an EV Owner:
http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/ev.html
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> ...a Honda R and D engineer was asked about the self discharge
> rate of their super cap bank. His answer (to my surprise) was
> the the capacitor leakage current is : .01 uA (microamps).
April fool! I'll guarantee he is wrong. Based on my experience with
supercapacitors, he is off by about 6 orders of magnitude. I've never
seen a supercapacitor that can hold even half its charge for more than a
month or two.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Greg McCrae at ElCon is a Zivan factory authorized service center.
He may be able to modify your charger.
ElCon Electric Conversions
215 14th Street
Sacramento, CA 95814
Greg McCrae
916-441-4161
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
Persistent heartburn? Check out Digestive Health & Wellness for information
and advice. http://gerd.msn.com/default.asp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you like to think about the big picture? Zipcar, Toyota and Tufts
University do, and have partnered to bring electric and hybrid Zipcars
to the Tufts Medford and Boston campuses.
On Wednesday, April 7th at 2:15pm Toyota's Advanced Technology Group
presents "Cars, Climate Change and Consumerism". The talk will be held
in the Coolidge Room at Ballou Hall. Zipcar staffers and Tufts
representatives will be there as well.
We hope to see you there. It should prove to be an interesting
afternoon.
For more information, please visit:
http://www.tufts.edu/tie/tci/cars.html
--------
Note: ZipCar has 3 Rav4-EV's in the Boston area, one of which is on the
Tufts University campus, and Tufts has one or two as well for their mail
delivery.
Give me a shout if you might go.
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff,
I am VERY interested in getting my hands on some of
the NIMH modules. I've been trying to call and keep
getting busy signals. I suspect you've been getting
innundated, just like the "twitchy solar guys" :) From
what I understand in yout e-mail, you do have some of
those in your control. When, and for how much, are you
planning on selling them? My brother lives near the
proving grounds as well, perhaps he could come pick
them up for me in his great big diesel truck :)
-Sam
310-210-7050
--- Jeff Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well, the cat is out of the bag after the solar boys
> started the Ebay auction a couple of days ago...
>
> And I've been following the posts regarding
> communications with them. Not very impressive.
>
> A couple more months were needed to have everything
> in
> place at EV Bones LLC. And now it is public
> knowledge.
> It has been a panic around here since the news
> leaked.
>
> We have been filling a warehouse with these
> Panasonic
> VRLA batteries for months now.
> It was important to try and keep this a secret for a
> few more months, so that General Mills would not
> close
> the gate before we had everything out of the
> facility.
> Unfortunately, news o' the Ebay auctions has already
> filtered back.
>
> Yes, they are pulls from the notorious EV1 graveyard
> at the GM proving grounds here in sunny Mesa, AZ.
>
> VRLA batteries from both EV1 and S10 trucks have
> been
> salvaged before the vehicles were crushed, and are
> now
> undergoing desulfation and charging in preparation
> to
> begin reselling at bargain prices.
>
> No other EV1 components could be acquired. And we
> are
> sure of that. When the EV1 crunch-fest began in Sept
> 03 (misinformation has it beginning in Dec 03), it
> drew so much attention, that GM had to load the
> partially (18 inches) crushed cars onto factory
> trailers and take them to CA for recycling (smelter
> bath).
>
> To permit the initial squish, all batteries had to
> be
> removed...
>
> Those twitchy solar boys bought a few (3) pallets of
> the VRLA batteries before we had a chance to quietly
> sequester them all. 500+ EV1's, 100+ S10E's, 26
> batteries per. You do the math.
>
> Additionally, we have stock on the Ovonics NiMH
> batteries. These are a reliable and long lasting
> battery (10+ years estimated), and would make an
> excellent power source for anyone wanting higher
> energy density and less weight than PbA.
>
> About the S10E PbA to NiMH conversion:
> The BPCM (Battery Pack Control Module) in the S10E
> trucks can be re-flashed to accommodate these
> superior
> 85Ah hydride batteries. Whether the battery module
> dimensions are the same we don't know yet. That was
> expected to have been resolved shortly, but we did
> not
> have a PbA truck to use for reference since ours are
> original NiMH.
>
> Sadly, none of the EV1's made it out alive. A couple
> of "gutted" frames did go to universities and museum
> displays.
>
> Soon, all we'll have left of the GM BEV legacy is
> the
> S10E.
>
> Please contact me at (480) 898-1195 for details and
> availability.
>
> Regards, Jeff Thomas , EV Bones LLC
>
> EV batteries from an EV Owner:
> http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/ev.html
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> April fool! I'll guarantee he is wrong. Based on my
> experience with
> supercapacitors, he is off by about 6 orders of
> magnitude. I've never
> seen a supercapacitor that can hold even half its
> charge for more than a month or two.
well, i was surprised (and skeptical), too.
In fact, since their vehicle has no aux battery, I
asked how long they could let the vehicle sit and
still be able to start it from the supercaps. The
answer was 'several months'.
now i don't know how much energy they require to get
their fuel cell on line, but that surprised me. Based
on what I know of supercaps, I was expecting a few
days to weeks.
The info would be tough to verify since Honda has
developed their own supercaps for this application,
and as is their style, this was one of the few
presentations at the conference that was 'oral only'.
So all i have to refer to is my notes. I know I am
quoting him accurately though because i was surprised
enough to write it in bold and under line it half a
dozen times.
~fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
www.surplusev.com. I bought a couple of the 13 ah ones. I have the guy's
email if you want. Contact me offlist.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 1:37 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Info needed on EV surplus (the guys with the Hawkers)
>
> Does anyone remember the web site for that place which sold the surplus
> Hawker Genesis batteries? I thought it was evsurplus.com or something
> like that, but that site doesn't exist.
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff, I am in the Phx area and would love to stop over and check out your
battery pile. Am interested in starting a pile myself (another). How about
emailing me some contact info and good times for making a connection?
Regards, David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Thomas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 01, 2004 1:46 PM
Subject: Panasonic VRLA batteries savaged from the EV1 and S10E -the
history-
> Well, the cat is out of the bag after the solar boys
> started the Ebay auction a couple of days ago...
>
> And I've been following the posts regarding
> communications with them. Not very impressive.
>
> A couple more months were needed to have everything in
> place at EV Bones LLC. And now it is public knowledge.
> It has been a panic around here since the news leaked.
>
> We have been filling a warehouse with these Panasonic
> VRLA batteries for months now.
> It was important to try and keep this a secret for a
> few more months, so that General Mills would not close
> the gate before we had everything out of the facility.
> Unfortunately, news o' the Ebay auctions has already
> filtered back.
>
> Yes, they are pulls from the notorious EV1 graveyard
> at the GM proving grounds here in sunny Mesa, AZ.
>
> VRLA batteries from both EV1 and S10 trucks have been
> salvaged before the vehicles were crushed, and are now
> undergoing desulfation and charging in preparation to
> begin reselling at bargain prices.
>
> No other EV1 components could be acquired. And we are
> sure of that. When the EV1 crunch-fest began in Sept
> 03 (misinformation has it beginning in Dec 03), it
> drew so much attention, that GM had to load the
> partially (18 inches) crushed cars onto factory
> trailers and take them to CA for recycling (smelter
> bath).
>
> To permit the initial squish, all batteries had to be
> removed...
>
> Those twitchy solar boys bought a few (3) pallets of
> the VRLA batteries before we had a chance to quietly
> sequester them all. 500+ EV1's, 100+ S10E's, 26
> batteries per. You do the math.
>
> Additionally, we have stock on the Ovonics NiMH
> batteries. These are a reliable and long lasting
> battery (10+ years estimated), and would make an
> excellent power source for anyone wanting higher
> energy density and less weight than PbA.
>
> About the S10E PbA to NiMH conversion:
> The BPCM (Battery Pack Control Module) in the S10E
> trucks can be re-flashed to accommodate these superior
> 85Ah hydride batteries. Whether the battery module
> dimensions are the same we don't know yet. That was
> expected to have been resolved shortly, but we did not
> have a PbA truck to use for reference since ours are
> original NiMH.
>
> Sadly, none of the EV1's made it out alive. A couple
> of "gutted" frames did go to universities and museum
> displays.
>
> Soon, all we'll have left of the GM BEV legacy is the
> S10E.
>
> Please contact me at (480) 898-1195 for details and
> availability.
>
> Regards, Jeff Thomas , EV Bones LLC
>
> EV batteries from an EV Owner:
> http://www.amug.org/~jthomas/ev.html
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Can you explain why you think the addition of a DC/DC would cause the
capacitors to be beneficial even with low resistance batteries?
Please note, I meant beneficial in terms of benefiting battery
life (peak current stress relief), not energy efficiency or the cost.
The system should be configured such that only capacitor bank is
connected to DC-DC output. So the battery provides steady current
and the capacitors take care of peak load. If there is long discharge,
then DC-DC steps down the voltage to maintain the minimum input for the
traction system. When the peak load is over, DC-DC recharges the caps
again.
This way for the most part the battery doesn't see high peak
current during accelerating and live longer. As being discussed,
even some low resistance PbA batteries don't like being stressed
even though there is no voltage sag on them.
+--------+
+-----| DC-DC |-----+------------->
| | | --- caps to the drive system
--- | | --- bank
- Bat | |-----+------------->
| | |
+-----| |
+--------+
This is NOT the standard way DC-DC is usually connected for
FC application: the cap bank is on its input and it steps up
the voltage maintaining constant voltage on the drive system.
This is because FC voltage swings like 3x and is low at cold
start up time.
I appreciate that the addition of a DC/DC allows more usable energy
to be stored/retrieved from the capacitor bank, and allows the use of
a capacitor bank with fewer capacitors in series, however, the DC/DC
itself represents an additional resistance and source of inefficiency
in the capacitor bank system.
Yes, ANY electronic component passing current through it looses
something. But, if I pay $5k for 80% efficient DC-DC and that
allows me to avoid replacing $15k LiIon packs every 3 years,
it practically may worth it even if battery energy is no longer
is used as efficiently (directly into the drive system).
Cheers,
Roger.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
New SUV Carries a Surprising Load
Just when you thought the SUV craze couldn't get any more overheated,
General Motors has upped the ante. Yesterday, at the annual
Copenhagen auto show, the company unveiled a prototype for a "DUV,"
or dual utility vehicle, dubbed the Kangaroo. Not only would the
vehicle be the largest SUV on the market -- 31 feet long, and
weighing half again as much as a Hummer H2 -- it would be the first
personal vehicle ever designed as both a means of transport and a
garage. Hard to believe, but the Kangaroo is designed to carry a
spare vehicle inside it: a small, nimble two-seater electric car
called the Joey, which is loaded and unloaded via a retractable ramp.
On vacations, the company said, the Joey could be used for navigating
narrow city streets or "sport driving," while the Kangaroo could
carry the luggage for the long haul. According to GM, the Kangaroo
and Joey would be "an unbeatable one-two punch for families that want
the luxury of a large car with the convenience of a small one."
straight to the source: Detroit Free Press, Joseph Fatone, 01 Apr 2004
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/cgi-bin/forward.pl?forward_id=2244>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
Can you explain why you think the addition of a
DC/DC would cause the
capacitors to be beneficial even with low resistance
batteries?
The only reason that Victors simple common bus
Capacitor/battery hybrid system works is because the
battery's voltage sags enough under load to bias the
current draw towards the Caps. If you have a stiffer
battery voltage, the caps will barely contribute
anything to the acceleration. You will effectively be
using a tiny portion of the energy stored in the
capacitor.
By adding an adjustable, bidirectional DC-DC
converter, you can SET the capacitor output voltage
(passed through the DC-DC) to something higher than
the battery voltage when you want to use capacitor
energy, or to something lower than the battery bus
voltage when you want to recharge the caps.
or, if your drive accepts a wide range of input
voltages, you can put the DC-DC on the battery leg of
the bus. I am not sure what advantages that has, but
...
make sense ?
Yes, if does. Thanks Roland to expalin clearly.
If your DC-DC is reconfigurable
in te fly (step-up during regen, step down during
acceleration), you can implement what you've described.
This is ideal case, but requires special DC-DC.
~fortunat
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Shawn Rutledge wrote:
--- Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I think you meant http://www.esma-cap.com/
Yeah. Thought maybe it was an April Fools joke. But given the correct
URL those look pretty impressive. Overvoltage doesn't harm them, just
causes gassing, which can be rectified by adding water (!). And
apparently they really built test vehicles that ran short routes on
capacitors alone. But, they do cite needing 12-15 minutes to charge a
pack of them.
They run a PWM controller directly from the capacitors, so I guess
their motor must be able to run with adequate power from a voltage much
lower than the maximum charge voltage; and if the power output is to be
constant, they would need to simply increase the "on" time of the
pulses as the voltage goes down.
That's what DC-DCs are for.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
elaine chiu wrote:
is it possible to change the zivan input myself, or does the dealer
have to do this, too?
ideally, I'd like to be able to switch it back and forth. Is that too
difficult?
elaine
(still plotting for charging at work on my next EV.)
Dealer support... dealer adjustable???? Dual voltage input from Zivan???
This explains why I have such a good market...
All these features are Base line feature items on a Manzanita Micro PFC
charger.
Same for BRUSA chargers - all user adjustable, and more universal and
flexible than Zivan or PFC chargers. Just one more option on the market
to consider.
BUT,
Looking at Watt/Dollar ratio, nothing really beats Rich's PFC chargers!
This ones are ideal for main stream conversions. I have one too!
Keep it up Rich!
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once attended a show, where a 'mad scientist' had a clown for his
assistant "Igor". It was to teach elementary school kids about basic
science and physics.
One of the gimmicks was an 'air car' that consisted of an inflated car
inner tube, with a sheet of plywood strapped on top, and a 12v car
blower motor blowing air underneath. Sure enough, it flew, even with the
clown on board!
They ran it from a battery charger thru a cord, mainly to keep it
tethered so it didn't wander too far away. But, I can readily imagine
having a 12v battery on board. If the heater blower takes 10 amps, and
you have a 100ah battery, it could run for 10 hours. On a nice windy day
(wind speed over 10 mph, such a contraption *could* cover 100 miles in a
day! :-)
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK. You got me. I believed it.
On Thu, 2004-04-01 at 14:30, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> New SUV Carries a Surprising Load
>
> Just when you thought the SUV craze couldn't get any more overheated,
> General Motors has upped the ante. Yesterday, at the annual
> Copenhagen auto show, the company unveiled a prototype for a "DUV,"
> or dual utility vehicle, dubbed the Kangaroo. Not only would the
> vehicle be the largest SUV on the market -- 31 feet long, and
> weighing half again as much as a Hummer H2 -- it would be the first
> personal vehicle ever designed as both a means of transport and a
> garage. Hard to believe, but the Kangaroo is designed to carry a
> spare vehicle inside it: a small, nimble two-seater electric car
> called the Joey, which is loaded and unloaded via a retractable ramp.
> On vacations, the company said, the Joey could be used for navigating
> narrow city streets or "sport driving," while the Kangaroo could
> carry the luggage for the long haul. According to GM, the Kangaroo
> and Joey would be "an unbeatable one-two punch for families that want
> the luxury of a large car with the convenience of a small one."
>
> straight to the source: Detroit Free Press, Joseph Fatone, 01 Apr 2004
> <http://www.gristmagazine.com/cgi-bin/forward.pl?forward_id=2244>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In other news, scientists just announced that today is the day between March 31st and
April 2nd ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes
New SUV Carries a Surprising Load
Just when you thought the SUV craze couldn't get any more overheated,
General Motors has upped the ante. Yesterday, at the annual
Copenhagen auto show, the company unveiled a prototype for a "DUV,"
or dual utility vehicle, dubbed the Kangaroo. Not only would the
vehicle be the largest SUV on the market -- 31 feet long, and
weighing half again as much as a Hummer H2 -- it would be the first
personal vehicle ever designed as both a means of transport and a
garage. Hard to believe, but the Kangaroo is designed to carry a
spare vehicle inside it: a small, nimble two-seater electric car
called the Joey, which is loaded and unloaded via a retractable ramp.
On vacations, the company said, the Joey could be used for navigating
narrow city streets or "sport driving," while the Kangaroo could
carry the luggage for the long haul. According to GM, the Kangaroo
and Joey would be "an unbeatable one-two punch for families that want
the luxury of a large car with the convenience of a small one."
straight to the source: Detroit Free Press, Joseph Fatone, 01 Apr 2004
<http://www.gristmagazine.com/cgi-bin/forward.pl?forward_id=2244>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> +--------+
> +-----| DC-DC |-----+------------->
> | | | --- caps to the drive system
> --- | | --- bank
> - Bat | |-----+------------->
> | | |
> +-----| |
> +--------+
I think it's better to call it a current regulator or current limiter
rather than a DC/DC. The goal is to limit the current coming out of
the battery pack to reasonable levels to get a good battery lifetime.
A simple PWM circuit should be sufficient; measure the battery current
and as it approaches the maximum allowable, reduce the duty cycle to
keep it under that maximum. At the same time the capacitors can
provide as much motor current as necessary, for a limited time. So you
get great launches without stressing the batteries.
It may also be beneficial to synchronize this PWM with the motor
controller's PWM, so that the batteries are providing what they can
towards the motor current rather than being required to charge the
capacitor first. But when the current going out to the drive system is
less than maximum battery current, the duty cycle of the first PWM will
be wider than that of the motor controller, and the capacitors get a
chance to recharge. As the capacitors charge and battery current falls
to less than maximum, the first PWM can go wide-open.
So it shouldn't be too hard to add ultracap terminals to an existing
controller design, and build-in the extra PWM circuit. I will retract
my comment about using AGMs as an "L2 cache" in addition to the caps; I
didn't realize ultracaps had gotten large enough to actually provide
full motor current for minutes at a time.
> Yes, ANY electronic component passing current through it looses
> something. But, if I pay $5k for 80% efficient DC-DC and that
> allows me to avoid replacing $15k LiIon packs every 3 years,
> it practically may worth it even if battery energy is no longer
> is used as efficiently (directly into the drive system).
Exactly. Hopefully the only losses are the PWM switching loss, and the
internal resistance of the ultracaps (which is not too bad - in one PDF
from Esma I see 0.7-0.9 milliohm for one cell).
=====
. _______ Shawn T. Rutledge / KB7PWD [EMAIL PROTECTED]
(_ | |_) http://ecloud.org/ [EMAIL PROTECTED]
__) | | \______________________________________________
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Clevenger wrote:
...
Seems pretty straightforward. Looks like it would also apply
to a parallel-hybrid (an ICE is a 'portable source of electric
current' as much as a fuel cell is.)
Tim
Straight forward?? When was last time you saw anything
IRS published being straight forward (i.e. not allowing conflicting
interpretations)?
Let see:
>> From IRS' Form 8834 for 2004 (Qualified Electric Vehicle Credit)
>
> "A qualified electric vehicle is any motor vehicle that is:
> - Manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads,
> and highways, and has at least four wheels;
Manufactured by whom? OEMs only? If I "manufacture" one in my
basement is it considered "manufactured" by IRS?
If OEM only, does this OEM has to qualify to be called
"manufacturer"? Is CommuterCars already a "manufacturer"
*in IRS eyes*?
> - Powered primarily by an electric motor drawing current
> from rechargeable batteries, fuel cells, or other portable
> sources of electrical current;
Actually powered or designed to be powered?
I can always run Prius in EV only mode around neighborhood
and have no other use for it, and so never put gas in it.
No, seriously. Picture a retired old lady who only runs
errands in Prius driving it 15 mph. Can she claim it?
> - Originally used by you;
Used *as electric* or they mean no one ever sat on the seat?
> and
> - Acquired for your own use and not for resale.
I guess means you didn't buy it with intent to
turn around and re-sell it to your brother.
What if you did sell it? How can you prove it wasn't
the original intent?
> Exceptions. The qualified electric vehicle credit does not
> apply to vehicles that are:
> - Used primarily outside the United States,
"Primarily" means most of the calendar time or driving time?
If it is *located* (parked) outside US for 11 month
but *used* (driven) in the US for one month, what is it?
> - Used by a governmental unit or agency or any foreign
> person or entity, or
Am I a foreign person? I am and I am not, depending on
what exactly you mean. Citizenship? Legal status?
Origins?
> - Used by a tax-exempt organization (other than a section
> 521 farmers� cooperative) unless the property is used
> mainly in an unrelated trade or business taxed under
> section 511.
...
...
So on, so forth.
Of course, this above is extreme, but you get the point -
you can practically ALWAYS do what you want and find a
clever way to explain later why you interpreted the law
this way.
Doesn't mean IRS will buy it, but I'm sure many are
taking chances, and it is not cheating. It's
"aggressive stretching".
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
> Consider that a 12V PbA AGM can have an internal resistance of
about
> 2.5 milli-ohms and that it takes about 6 ultracaps in series to
> accomodate a similar voltage (at ~2.5V/cap). What is the
equivalent
> internal resistance of the 5-6 series connected ultracaps?
Does it
> really end up being significantly better, or are we looking at
a
> single-digit % improvement? Now compare them to something like
the
> Bolder cells (yeah, they are no longer available, but they are
an
> example of what even good ol' boring lead acid can do in this
> regard).
Speaking of Bolders, a friend of mine and I acquired a couple of
dozen of these several years ago with the intent of experimenting
w/ paralleling them with 6V floodeds. Well, the experimenting
never really came off, but I've kept them charged up (although
doubt a rectifier and a light bulb on the way in from a 120VAC
outlet is very good monthly treatment, and they may be trash).
I'm likely to give them to the battery recycler when I get my new
pack in a year or so, but if anybody has a use for them, I
suppose they are mailable, or I could drop them off somewhere in
the Bay Area... At least I would feel some use came of them...
Contact me off-list if interested.
Chuck
Chuck Hursch
Larkspur, CA
NBEAA treasurer and webmaster
http://nbeaa.org
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/339.html
http://www.geocities.com/chursch/bizcard.bmp
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
re:
> New SUV Carries a Surprising Load
>
> Just when you thought the SUV craze couldn't get any more overheated,
> General Motors has upped the ante. Yesterday, at the annual
> Copenhagen auto show, the company unveiled a prototype for a "DUV,"
(assuming that this _is_ a leg-puller)
...the irony is that there DOES exist a mobile-home that carries around
it's own "city car" ...it might be a one-off (I don't know for sure), but
I've seen film of it on something like a Travel Channel "Stuff Really Rich
People Have and You Don't" show...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, April 01, 2004 12:14 PM, Fortunat Mueller
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> i just wanted to make sure you
> weren't referring to Victor's 78 kWh figure (since
> mixing up power and energy units seems to be a
> favorite on this list).
It does seem that way, but I try to be careful with my units ^>
> on to the capacitors :
>
> unless i am missing something, i don't think this is
> true. the current split is not driven only by the
> relative internal resistances, but also by the
> voltage.
I'm sure you are correct that voltage will play a role, however, here
is what I think will happen: if the caps are paralleled with the
battery, then their voltage is constrained to be the same as that of
the battery. So, at the instant a load is applied, the current
divides between the battery and cap bank based on internal
resistances. Let's pretend that the voltage of the cap bank sags
such that it cannot supply as much (or any current); as soon as the
cap bank provides less assistance, the battery picks up the
difference and sags more. As soon as the battery sags, the amount of
assistance that the cap bank can provide increases. So, what I
envision happening is that the current will divide based on the
relative impedances of the cap bank and battery, and will continue to
do so as the voltage of the paralleled battery and cap bank sags
under load. The relative impedances will vary as the caps and
battery discharge, so I would expect the division of curent between
the two stores to vary over time.
> As an example, consider a parallel configuration with
> a 120 V nominal battery pack in parallel with 120 V
> capacitor pack of equal internal resistance (say 1
> ohm). Now if I put a light load (20 A) on the common
> DC bus, the voltages on both packs will sag to 100 V,
> right ? but the battery can stay at this voltage and
> supply current for a long time, the capacitor,
> meanwhile, can't supply any current without droping
> even further in voltage. Since it is in parallel with
> the battery, it can't drop further in voltage
> (otherwise the battery would just charge it back up).
>
> does this example make sense ? i know it is
> simplified, but I think it makes my point.
This makes sense, but I think it may be more applicable to long(ish)
duration discharges rather than the short duration, high current
peaks that the capacitor bank is supposed to protect the battery pack
from.
As an example, consider that the capacitor bank in a modern PWM
controller operates in exactly this way to protect the batteries from
the current peaks; the capacitors are directly in parallel with the
batteries, and are *much* smaller in capacity than a bank of
ultracaps, yet very effectively reduce the peak currents seen by the
batteries. The much larger capacity of an ultracap bank would allow
it to be just as effective over longer duration peaks than those at
the typical 20kHz switching frequency.
> > The claim was that the capacitors can be charged and
> > discharged more efficiently than 'any' battery, and
> > this certainly does not appear to be true for the
> > simple case of a string of capacitors connected in
> > parallel with a low internal resistance pack of
> > AGMs.
>
> i think i see what you mean, and i think you are
> partly correct. i don't think the actual
> charge/discharge of the caps is necessarily more
> efficient than a battery, but the addition of
> capacitors can still help the efficieny of the whole
> system.
> This is because most batteries can't take a high
> current charge when they are near 100% SOC. A
> capacitor/battery hybrid with a DC/DC will be able to
> accept significant regen at any battery SOC,
But not at any *capacitor bank* SOC. The benefit is not due to the
use of a capacitor bank, but rather is due to carrying around a
second energy storage means that is managed such that it *usually* is
at <100%SOC and therefore capable of accepting regen energy.
One could just as easily use a small capacity pack of AGMs to accept
regen energy, or simply manage the main battery such that it is
usually at <100%SOC and therefore capable of accepting regen energy
directly.
Ultimately, the fundamental problem remains no matter where the regen
energy is stored: when the energy store if full, it cannot accept
regen current anymore.
I accept that the addition of a capacitor bank (with/without DC/DC)
*can* help the efficiency of the whole system, but not that it is
certain to do so, or that the improvement will necessarily be
significant.
> I hope the above makes some sense and that i am not
> rambling mindlessly...it has been a long week.
Not at all; thanks for your feedback.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thursday, April 01, 2004 2:13 PM, Victor Tikhonov
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Please note, I meant beneficial in terms of benefiting battery
> life (peak current stress relief), not energy efficiency or the
> cost.
Ah, OK: I misunderstood the claim to be of energy efficiency benefit.
> The system should be configured such that only capacitor bank is
> connected to DC-DC output. So the battery provides steady current
> and the capacitors take care of peak load.
> This way for the most part the battery doesn't see high peak
> current during accelerating and live longer.
OK, this seems plausible.
> Yes, ANY electronic component passing current through it looses
> something. But, if I pay $5k for 80% efficient DC-DC and that
> allows me to avoid replacing $15k LiIon packs every 3 years,
> it practically may worth it even if battery energy is no longer
> is used as efficiently (directly into the drive system).
Agreed; economics of the system is a completely different matter. My
interest was in trying to understand how addition of a DC/DC was
going to improve overall efficiency of the system.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
