EV Digest 3445
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Battery discharge tester needed
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) What's happening in the pack.
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Solar powered car
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solar powered car - amorphous film
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Krispy Kostov Komm
by "evranger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Battery discharge tester needed
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) solar power balance
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Controller isoaltion (Re: ACPropulsion combo on eBay)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Extension cord?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery discharge tester needed
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Extension cord?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) battery power and range
by Brian Staffanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: battery power and range
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: titling services?
by Derrick Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fast charge/discharge battery
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) NEC Develops Fastest Rechargeable Battery
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: battery power and range
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery discharge tester needed
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Extension cord?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What's happening in the pack.
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Battery discharge tester needed
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Controller isoaltion (Re: ACPropulsion combo on eBay)
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: melted trojan 105
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: solar power balance
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Saab 96 EV ?
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: What's happening in the pack.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: battery power and range
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, this time when I drop the pack I want to weed out *all* of the
oddball batteries. After driving it tonight I have a pretty good idea
what happened (described in another email)
What I need now is a device that can really load test batteries. yes, I
have my little load-tester, but after 30 seconds (it's a 30 amp load) it
gets all nice and cherry red. Not going to do the job.
I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery for
up to 60 minutes. My plan is to run the batteries down to zero, then
time how long it takes for this to happen. "Zero" in this case is 10.66
volts, the bottom for the Hawker Genesis family.
Any suggestions on what to build? Something that I can use to test
multiple batteries would be optimal...
Thanks!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I love telemetry data. With it one can see a lot that cannot otherwise
be seen.
So I took the Prizm on a drive tonight. And I watched the current vs
voltage readings like a hawk. Here is what I found.
Starting off: 300 volts on the pack would provide 140amps of power at
1ah. This was pretty constant to 10ah when the 300 volt would produce
110 amps.
At 10ah to 11ah my first battery in one of the strings failed. I know
this because current at 300 volts went from 110a to 70a in one ah. At
this point I think that the other string was pulling all the load as the
first string now had a very high resistance battery. Thus one of my
batteries has a capacity of 5 ah.
The other string was now powering the car alone. I headed for home fast.
And current stayed pretty stable till about 15.5 ah. At this point
voltage dropped like a brick from 300 volts @60a to 275 at 60a, and then
down to the 262 range. Drove home slowly; at the end the car was barely
able to make it into the driveway at 260 volts (60a). 17ah was the end
of the run.
My guess here is that the second string has a battery with a capacity of
only 10.5ah. When it dies the pack is now pulling current through two
dead batteries in two strings. So voltage now falls like a rock.
At the end of the run I took a look at the temp sensors in the pack. 4
of them were reading 25degrees C, three (the other side of the pack)
were reading 30 degrees. My guess is the 25 degree sensors were on the
pack side that failed first, and the second set were on the pack that
failed second.
Does this sound anywhere near correct? Ifso I might be in better shape
than I think: The two weakest batteries are failing and saving the rest
of the pack.
When a battery fails in a string, and there are two strings, does all
the curren then come from the remaining string? What happens when two
batteries fail on both sides of the string?
Thanks!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Shawn Rutledge" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 6:17 PM
Subject: Re: Solar powered car
> Then there are the new solar cells where they use flexible stainless
> steel as a substrate, so you can shingle your roof with them and not
> need special supporting infrastructure, and not worry about having hail
> break them etc. (How they tie them together electrically to handle all
> the current I'm not quite sure.) If those got cheap enough everybody
> could have an excess capacity by doing their entire roofs (rooves?)
> with them.
Easy, Shawn - pigtails out the back that plug into a harness in the attic,
if I remember correctly.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Um....
Amorphous PV sucks rocks in a lot of ways. Solarex sold the MST43 line
of panels for awhile; they stopped. The problems are mainly that the
panels lose a lot of their capacity in the first year of life (when the
stuff anneals in the sunlight) thus they have to be made with a 20%
overcapacity to make ratings. Second, they are much lower power density
when compared to polycrystaline.
The cost was about $3 bucks a watt while MSX120's were running $4 a watt.
Myself, I am impressed with string wafer technology and the like.
Evergreen and PhotoWatt are doing some nice things with polycrystaline.
Chris
Lightning Ryan wrote:
Shawn Rutledge wrote:
Then there are the new solar cells where they use flexible stainless
steel as a substrate, so you can shingle your roof with them and not
need special supporting infrastructure, and not worry about having hail
break them etc. (How they tie them together electrically to handle all
the current I'm not quite sure.) If those got cheap enough everybody
could have an excess capacity by doing their entire roofs (rooves?)
with them.
Augh yes, the "amorphous film" ie. Uni-Solar, or Texico Ovonics.
Why do they own all the "good stuff" and refuse to sell any of it?
This PV technology "Should" be much cheaper than the standard Silicon
based PV technology, That's one of it's advantages "as advertised".
Ironically though it's cost is just as high as the others, probably
because it can be when you have the market cornered. Amorphous PV
is also more durrable, flexable (for various applications), and it
works better in low light, like overcast and in northern locations.
Disclaimer:I haven't actually touched or tested amorphous film PV,
and other companies may be breaking into this market, and I don't
personally like Ovonics. So don't quote me here in any "real works".
L8r
Ryan
PS.
As great as they are, even these PV's on your car won't get you far.
But on your homes roof is a whole other story, hope they get cheap!
Search for "Flexible PhotoVoltaic" for about 30,800 matches.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pulled the Kostov out of ELECTWK and snapped a few more pics. Indeed the
Komm is trashed with chunks of several segments missing. Pics at:
http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/[EMAIL
PROTECTED]/album?.dir=/My+Photos&.src=ph&store=&prodid=&.done=http%3a//f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/[EMAIL
PROTECTED]/my_photos
So, is it safe to assume this motor is not repairable. Or if it can be
repaired will it cost more than a new motor?
Regards,
Dave Luiz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got any 12 volt DC to 120 VAC inverters amongst your solar stuff?
Preferably 500W or better.
If so, hook up the inverter and have it run some big lights (like 2 x
150W floodlight bulbs) to make the 300 W load.
This will actually be more of a constant power load rather than constant
current load... as the battery voltage drops, the current should go up
as the inverter keeps the output at the fixed 120V AC.
Then you need an e-meter with the low-voltage lock out programmed to the
10.66 volts, or some other shutoff device as watching that many
batteries by hand would get tedious real fast.
Chris Zach wrote:
I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery for
up to 60 minutes. My plan is to run the batteries down to zero, then
time how long it takes for this to happen. "Zero" in this case is 10.66
volts, the bottom for the Hawker Genesis family.
Any suggestions on what to build? Something that I can use to test
multiple batteries would be optimal...
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking a needing a 5kw, dual 2.5kw sunny boys and 6000 watts of
panels to make enough power during the summer to offset the power the
rest of the year. (Power drops with temperature) 19kwh on systems with
2.5 sunnyboy and 20 150Watt shell panels is the most I have seen. that
system is producing 15kwh/day right now.
We are in a nice net metering area and part of the trick is to make
enough to insure when you sign up for "time of use" you still make power
during the 23.5cents/kwh time and then after 7pm you can use at
8.5cents/kwh. Set up a seperate meter for electirc cars that is only
used from midnight to 7am and PG&E will sell you power to charge your EV
at 5cents a kwh
sell surplus at 23.5, that will feel good!
Pay off is debateable, Need is debateable, we are all early adopters on
this list and that risk is the cost..
my goal for this year is to reach that balance point, solar-EV-electric
lawnmower
My ole 95 grand am just got a new engine and it gets a new tranny this
weekend. If I drive it on weekends and to moms house only it will take
me 20 years to put 50K on it. sweet
Can someone send me links on the rechargeable mower project once
mentioned on this site?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
The motor controllers are never isolated.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Siemens and MES-DEA AC inverters are all isolated. Traction pack
is floating vs chassis.
Wrong context, Victor. You are thinking about the controller being
isolated from ground. Pretty much *all* controllers do this.
My misunderstanding, all clear now. I thought of
motor+controller+battery from the chassy, not from each other.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he remodeled
our apartment complex a couple summers ago, I'm in search of an
alternative way to charge (without putting an extension cord out and
under the front door). I've found a route for an extension cord
(through the dryer exhaust hole) that will run along the side of the
building and right to where I park. I'll be using a PFC-20, and I'm a
little worried that it will draw more current than the extension cord is
rated for. The cable is UL listed, 14/3 is written on the cord. Most
extension cords this size are rated at 15 amps. Do I need to be worried?
I imagine others have had to deal with this same problem. I'd be
interested to hear the solutions.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
Visit http://www.evsource.com for rebates on Zillas during the month of
April!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris, how bout sticking the load in a bucket of water? I have also toyed
with the idea of putting some of my loads into a (new from HD) paint can and
filling with mineral oil. Small muffin fan might keep your load aircooled.
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 7:39 PM
Subject: Battery discharge tester needed
> Ok, this time when I drop the pack I want to weed out *all* of the
> oddball batteries. After driving it tonight I have a pretty good idea
> what happened (described in another email)
>
> What I need now is a device that can really load test batteries. yes, I
> have my little load-tester, but after 30 seconds (it's a 30 amp load) it
> gets all nice and cherry red. Not going to do the job.
>
> I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery for
> up to 60 minutes. My plan is to run the batteries down to zero, then
> time how long it takes for this to happen. "Zero" in this case is 10.66
> volts, the bottom for the Hawker Genesis family.
>
> Any suggestions on what to build? Something that I can use to test
> multiple batteries would be optimal...
>
> Thanks!
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, Can you put some type of raintight locking box on the wall so you can
lock up your cord (I assume you wish to leave it plugged in rather than stow
it after each charge)? In any event, you can purchase a "Contractor" grade
12 guage cord in 25 or 50 foot length at Home Depot. Or you can do as I did
and buy 50' of 10-3 SOJ and put a weather tight box on the end with flip up
covers or put a twistlock female on the end and have Rich put a twistlock
plug on the charger. I recommend twistlock as it is a mechanical connection
and you won't have casual thieves as interested in stealing your cord as its
less common. If you go this route you should make up a tw to regular male
pigtail for those times you want to charge off a standard outlet. David
Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:48 PM
Subject: Extension cord?
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he remodeled
> our apartment complex a couple summers ago, I'm in search of an
> alternative way to charge (without putting an extension cord out and
> under the front door). I've found a route for an extension cord
> (through the dryer exhaust hole) that will run along the side of the
> building and right to where I park. I'll be using a PFC-20, and I'm a
> little worried that it will draw more current than the extension cord is
> rated for. The cable is UL listed, 14/3 is written on the cord. Most
> extension cords this size are rated at 15 amps. Do I need to be worried?
>
> I imagine others have had to deal with this same problem. I'd be
> interested to hear the solutions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
>
> --
> Visit http://www.evsource.com for rebates on Zillas during the month of
> April!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
range. Is this a generalization for all batteries? Or do some
batteries have better densities than that? I wonder because I might be
commuting a little longer than I have planned for work, this summer,
with an internship about a hour away, or about 50 - 60 miles, through a
canyon with some ups and downs. Initially I was planning on using 108v
of orbital 34xcd. If this the power density is correct, I would
probably need 1200 lbs of batteries, being about 30 batteries, if I
remember correctly that the orbitals weigh 40 lbs. This would be
assuming that I can charge my batteries at work, which I don't know yet,
because I would need to have the same power coming back home.
Another question, in similar vein, I was thinking which type of setup
would be best for a little more distance. I was initially thinking that
I wanted to double the number of batteries (before realyzing some things
that come into play, which will be mentioned later), and wanted to know
which would be better for more range: having one string of 216V or two
strings of 108V? I really don't have the option anymore of just one
string at 216V, as the motor I am planning on using is a Presolite 4001,
and I have heard that the voltage shouldn't exceed 156V, or arcing is a
problem. So I am down to having to parallel the batteries. So if I do
parallel, is the best setup having the parallel strings being the same
type of battery as the first string? Or would it be better for range,
to get the heavier 6V batteries? All this is assuming that my budget
isn't as limited as it is, and that I have unlimited space, which I
don't really have ( I am converting a 1974 VW bug). But I still want to
know what any of you have to say about anything I have mentioned.
One last thing is that I still want to be able to speed up the hills in
the canyon, going the same speed as the traffic is, usually 65, but
still being able to get to work. I have a curtis 1231, 500A
controller. So I don't know if that is possible. But I only have so
much money.
Thanks,
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It takes about 800 pounds of battery to push a car the same distance as one
gallon of fuel.
If you draw more than 500 amps per string, AGMs work better.
If you draw less than 500 amps per string, the flooded are better.
The line is somewhat blurry because there are so many different AGMs and
flooded batteries and different people spend different ratios of their time
above 500 amps.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:25 PM
Subject: battery power and range
> I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
> range. Is this a generalization for all batteries? Or do some
> batteries have better densities than that?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 6, 2004, at 4:11 PM, "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Here, do it yourself...
http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms/mv_forms/mv-426B.pdf
The point is, I don't want to ;-)
otherwise, I've read good reviews about titles unlimited, but have no
personal experience with them. www.titlesunlimitedinc.com
they appear they'd be helpful for title recovery but i need a
"modified" title because it's converted, they don't seem to deal with
those.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Apr 06, 2004 at 02:17:35PM -0700, Lee Hart wrote:
> Sounds like Marketing describing a supercapacitor to a gullible
> journalist.
Possible I suppose; I'm curious as to what they mean by "organic radical".
I presume they don't mean an environmental activist ;-)
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NEC Corp. (6701) has developed a battery that can be recharged only in 30
seconds, company sources said. Called an organic radical battery, it can be
recharged to the same level of power as that stored in nickel-hydrogen
cells, which are widely used in digital cameras, portable MD players and
other electronic devices.
It takes only about 30 seconds to recharge the battery enough to allow 80
hours of continuous operation of an MD player, compared with around an hour
needed by conventional rechargeables, the company claims.
Because of its ability to recharge faster, the new battery, which stores
power in a special resin, is expected to make radio-controlled toy cars,
shavers and other products much more convenient to use.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Rice has a Rabbit that gets great range and is made of common EV
parts. He can fill you in on what it takes to make an elephant on
rollerskates. That is, a small car with lots and lots of lead in it. I
think he has a 9" motor and a 500A Curtis, but he should tell us.
Seth
On Apr 7, 2004, at 1:25 AM, Brian Staffanson wrote:
I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
range. Is this a generalization for all batteries? Or do some
batteries have better densities than that? I wonder because I might
be commuting a little longer than I have planned for work, this
summer, with an internship about a hour away, or about 50 - 60 miles,
through a canyon with some ups and downs. Initially I was planning on
using 108v of orbital 34xcd. If this the power density is correct, I
would probably need 1200 lbs of batteries, being about 30 batteries,
if I remember correctly that the orbitals weigh 40 lbs. This would be
assuming that I can charge my batteries at work, which I don't know
yet, because I would need to have the same power coming back home.
Another question, in similar vein, I was thinking which type of setup
would be best for a little more distance. I was initially thinking
that I wanted to double the number of batteries (before realyzing some
things that come into play, which will be mentioned later), and wanted
to know which would be better for more range: having one string of
216V or two strings of 108V? I really don't have the option anymore
of just one string at 216V, as the motor I am planning on using is a
Presolite 4001, and I have heard that the voltage shouldn't exceed
156V, or arcing is a problem. So I am down to having to parallel the
batteries. So if I do parallel, is the best setup having the parallel
strings being the same type of battery as the first string? Or would
it be better for range, to get the heavier 6V batteries? All this is
assuming that my budget isn't as limited as it is, and that I have
unlimited space, which I don't really have ( I am converting a 1974 VW
bug). But I still want to know what any of you have to say about
anything I have mentioned.
One last thing is that I still want to be able to speed up the hills
in the canyon, going the same speed as the traffic is, usually 65, but
still being able to get to work. I have a curtis 1231, 500A
controller. So I don't know if that is possible. But I only have so
much money.
Thanks,
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I used 3 200W 1 ohm enameled resistors in parallel when doing my 30A
NiCad discharge curves. I got them surplus, but Digi-Key probably
stocks them.
A bunch of welding wire in a bucket of water might work, too.
I think Joe mentioned the coathanger test trick a while back if you are
looking to test.
Seth
On Apr 6, 2004, at 11:02 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
Got any 12 volt DC to 120 VAC inverters amongst your solar stuff?
Preferably 500W or better.
If so, hook up the inverter and have it run some big lights (like 2 x
150W floodlight bulbs) to make the 300 W load.
This will actually be more of a constant power load rather than
constant current load... as the battery voltage drops, the current
should go up as the inverter keeps the output at the fixed 120V AC.
Then you need an e-meter with the low-voltage lock out programmed to
the 10.66 volts, or some other shutoff device as watching that many
batteries by hand would get tedious real fast.
Chris Zach wrote:
I need something that can pull a 30amp load from a 12 volt battery
for up to 60 minutes. My plan is to run the batteries down to zero,
then time how long it takes for this to happen. "Zero" in this case
is 10.66 volts, the bottom for the Hawker Genesis family.
Any suggestions on what to build? Something that I can use to test
multiple batteries would be optimal...
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought a 10/3 extension cord for my MIG welder with lighted LED in
the end for $50 for 50 feet. Or you can make your own of 10/3 or 8/3
Seth
On Apr 6, 2004, at 11:48 PM, Ryan Bohm wrote:
Hi Everyone,
Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he
remodeled our apartment complex a couple summers ago, I'm in search of
an alternative way to charge (without putting an extension cord out
and under the front door). I've found a route for an extension cord
(through the dryer exhaust hole) that will run along the side of the
building and right to where I park. I'll be using a PFC-20, and I'm a
little worried that it will draw more current than the extension cord
is rated for. The cable is UL listed, 14/3 is written on the cord.
Most extension cords this size are rated at 15 amps. Do I need to be
worried?
I imagine others have had to deal with this same problem. I'd be
interested to hear the solutions.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
Visit http://www.evsource.com for rebates on Zillas during the month
of April!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds right, but the weak one is saving 24 other modules and killing
the other string.
Seth
On Apr 6, 2004, at 10:49 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
I love telemetry data. With it one can see a lot that cannot otherwise
be seen.
So I took the Prizm on a drive tonight. And I watched the current vs
voltage readings like a hawk. Here is what I found.
Starting off: 300 volts on the pack would provide 140amps of power at
1ah. This was pretty constant to 10ah when the 300 volt would produce
110 amps.
At 10ah to 11ah my first battery in one of the strings failed. I know
this because current at 300 volts went from 110a to 70a in one ah. At
this point I think that the other string was pulling all the load as
the first string now had a very high resistance battery. Thus one of
my batteries has a capacity of 5 ah.
The other string was now powering the car alone. I headed for home
fast. And current stayed pretty stable till about 15.5 ah. At this
point voltage dropped like a brick from 300 volts @60a to 275 at 60a,
and then down to the 262 range. Drove home slowly; at the end the car
was barely able to make it into the driveway at 260 volts (60a). 17ah
was the end of the run.
My guess here is that the second string has a battery with a capacity
of only 10.5ah. When it dies the pack is now pulling current through
two dead batteries in two strings. So voltage now falls like a rock.
At the end of the run I took a look at the temp sensors in the pack. 4
of them were reading 25degrees C, three (the other side of the pack)
were reading 30 degrees. My guess is the 25 degree sensors were on the
pack side that failed first, and the second set were on the pack that
failed second.
Does this sound anywhere near correct? Ifso I might be in better shape
than I think: The two weakest batteries are failing and saving the
rest of the pack.
When a battery fails in a string, and there are two strings, does all
the curren then come from the remaining string? What happens when two
batteries fail on both sides of the string?
Thanks!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the constant power information would be more meaningful to EV use
anyway. And a good inverter should have a low battery voltage shutoff built
into it, may even be programmable.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 10:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Battery discharge tester needed
> Got any 12 volt DC to 120 VAC inverters amongst your solar stuff?
> Preferably 500W or better.
>
> If so, hook up the inverter and have it run some big lights (like 2 x
> 150W floodlight bulbs) to make the 300 W load.
>
> This will actually be more of a constant power load rather than constant
> current load... as the battery voltage drops, the current should go up
> as the inverter keeps the output at the fixed 120V AC.
>
> Then you need an e-meter with the low-voltage lock out programmed to the
> 10.66 volts, or some other shutoff device as watching that many
> batteries by hand would get tedious real fast.
>
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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I don't understand how an isolated AC motor would have high voltage on its'
shaft whether using it as a motor or using it as a choke in a charger.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 5:52 PM
Subject: Re: Controller isoaltion (Re: ACPropulsion combo on eBay)
> Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >
> > Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> > >>And why isn't whatever this is also a problem for hobbyists
> > >>using non-isolated chargers?
> > >
> > > Because (almost) all hobby EVs use separate chargers and motor
> > > controllers. The charger can be isolated. The motor controllers are
> > > never isolated.
> >
> > Siemens and MES-DEA AC inverters are all isolated. Traction pack
> > is floating vs chassis. This is perhaps because they are not hobby EV
> > product and OEMs have good reason to require isolation.
> >
> > Isolation hardware sure adds some cost but as I mentioned numerous
> > times, silicon cost is a small fraction of the total product price.
> >
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
>
> Umm Victor and Lee I think we have a conceptual problem here.
> Lee is right, the traction pack and a DC drive are NEVER isolated from
> each other, and Niether is the Siemans.
> The Siemans is Insulated from the chassis and the motor is insulated
> from Chassis, and so are all the drive electronics. Even the Dc to Dc is
> isolated from the main pack giving
> Isolations and insulation between the House 12 volts and the motive
> pack. This is what I think Victor means.
> But Lee, most of us "Advanced" DC drive folks have insulation from the
> drive pack to the house 12 volts. That's why we have little Dc/DC
> converters for our Rs-232 E-meters. Our only fault point is the Carbon
> build up in the motor case. This is solved with a seprate contactor in
> the neg side if the motor leads and the Battery main contactor in the
> controller positive lead. So.. when the drive is OFF There are no
> possible leaks to chassis from the pack that are not faults inside the
> traction pack to chassis(Fault by definition)
> Being loose with the concepts Victor, implies that the input or the
> output of the Siemans drive is transformer isolated from the drive
> motor, which it is NOT!. It is well insulated. Touching a exposed
> conductor in the drive motor and the Neg side of your traction pack at
> the same time will result in a shock, If the drive motor is being
> driven.
>
> Adding a charger, is not as simple as it sounds. The ACP guys used the
> Stator windings as the Boost/buck inductor in thier "20Kw" integrated
> charger. Nice, but it coupleds line currents into the rotor of the
> induction motor, this has to be insolated from the tranny shaft or else
> the car drive train would go "hot" to the Ac grid. I have heard the the
> motor would want to spin also, when charging. Opps! I was handed the
> insulator "plate" from a ACP 175Kw drive once. it was a piece of high
> density Fiber board, AKA "Masonite"
> I almost died laughing.... 200 Hp through this???? That team rebuildt
> thier insulator out of electrical Laminate grade material, Which can be
> order in some really impressive ratings and specs.... We use the good
> stuff in the PFC chargers as Torroid supports, and our own fuse
> holders... You can get some REALLY good stuff!. Anyways the stuff the
> Team used to replace the "designed by the White coats" units was about 1
> magnitude stronger. And cost about $50 of material. So using the
> induction motor for the charger boost element can have unforseen draw
> backs... Doing a purpose designed charger, allows for much better
> magnetics designs, smaller packinging,and a inductor that won't drive
> way on you under full charge power.
> Still the best charger I have seen is the Brusa Water cooled 3800 watt
> unit that Victor showed me last year. I was and still am impressed as to
> it's functions and featurea and small water cooled packaging. I build
> one that is air cooled occupys about 10 times the volume and makes 4
> times the power. And cost less. With water cooling and some new tricks I
> bet I could get a PFC30 to make 12Kw, but that's non Isolated. Ah to
> have the time and money to compete with a Billion Dollar company....
>
>
> --
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
> www.manzanitamicro.com
> 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
>
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all this talk about melting post brings to mind a series of phone calls I
had
with Jon who is driving one of my conversions.
Jon " One of the cables on one of my batteries seems to be loose and I have
the bolt as tight as it will go "
me " You'll need to get another cable ,you can try opening it up and see if
it will slide down on the post further..... don't let this go as it will
melt off ...."
2 days later Jon " I screwed a metal screw between the post and the cable
clamp
and it seems to be working now "
Me "I don't think that won't last long , you could try switching it with
another cable ,
some of the post on the batteries are bigger than others , you may get lucky
, but really , a new cable is what you need , that battery isn't near the
neg end of the pack where the E meter is (if the wrong battery melts a post
you can fry your e meter , from 101 ways to kill an e meter) "
day 4 Jon " I can't believe it , just as I'm pulling onto 95 ( big hi way )
the post melts off"
ME " don't worry about it , just take that one battery out , and turn down
the charger a little bit ( PFC20 ) the batteries are about 2 years old now
anyway ."
Jon " What !!! No way , I'll get another tomorrow"
Why he was so agents running on 19 instead of 20 I don't know , I tried to
talk him out of it
but....... at least he was able to jump the bad battery there on the road,
as he had a
1/2 wrench and I had showed him how to do this .
next day Jon " I went to the the golf cart store and got another
battery but the post seem smaller and have a hole in them and the cable
doesn't fit quite right"
Me " Jon that battery is for golf carts where they put a bolt through the
post and bolt a cable with an eyelet you need the kind with a automotive
post."
Jon " They only have one kind here and the guy says its fine"
Me " Oh "
a few day later
Jon " I can't believe it , the post on my new battery just melted off "
Me " oh "
I have had very good luck with the automotive clamp cables and have not had
a post melt off with them in years , but under the right conditions it can
be done. You can tighten the clamp bolt down but also check that the cable
won't twist on the post, I have seen this , where the bolt seemed tight but
I could twist the cable clamp on the post .
>
One time I heard battery man say " what good is a cable clamp on your post
if she's not tight , if you find one in you pack , hit her with a wrench
and if she dosn;t tighten up , throw her out.
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mower as in Elec-Trak garden tractor? Chris Zak has set up his to
recharge from solar panels and can chime in with the details. However
this is a standalone system so may not apply to your situation as you
are looking at grid-tie.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Can someone send me links on the rechargeable mower project once
mentioned on this site?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
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What kind of gas mileage did you get with this car . If you really like it ,
well that's a big point. To bad your not in Florida , Tell us more about
what you want this ev to do , speed , distance and your budget. I sell a
video on how to make your own adaptor plate , if you have more time that
money , I have made adaptor plates for
120 mercury lynx now Mitsubishi 2 pu
120v ford ranger now 196v
72 v Hyundai now 120 v
132v Mitsubishi 1 pu
216v 924 Porsche
120 1980 Mazda 1pu
156 86 Mazda 2 pu
which can be seen in the album
and in the oven a Torcell and Prelude
If you can find somebody local , getting them involved is a good idea.
Steve Clunn
www.grassrootsev.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Jaross" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 3:15 PM
Subject: Saab 96 EV ?
OK, it's not too practical, but I REALLY like the old Saab 96. I used to
own one for a few years in Sweden. I have my hands on a local glider in
good shape and, although I know a newer car/pickup would be more practical
to convert, I'd like to at least hear someone from EV List warn me off. I'm
in the Bellingham, WA area. Who would I go see about adaptor plates for an
Advanced DC motor ? The rest of the electrical stuff seems to be available
from lots of sources. Anybody have a favorite EV shop in my area ? It
seems like a good idea to have someone local to get advice/parts from. Or a
favorite shop-by-mail place ? I'm willing to listen to any and all
opinions, regardless how WILDLY BIASED ! Thanks, Michael
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Sounds right, but the weak one is saving 24 other modules and killing
the other string.
Hm. Hooray I think :-( Fortunately I haven't been driving it more than
10 miles all winter, and only recently have been driving it to 15 (where
it's dead as a tuna can).
However what is happening in the pack when one battery dies early? Do
the other batteries take the damage as well? I can't believe they are
all going down to 10vpc, but what is going on in there which is causing
a reported voltage of 10vpc? Is the resistance of the dead battery that
high? What is limiting the current?
Chris
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From: "Brian Staffanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 1:25 AM
Subject: battery power and range
> I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
> range.
there is also the weight of the car to think about , better to think of
battery weight over total car weight 50 60 miles , I think your going to
want between 1/3 and 1/2 battery weight to car weight.
I wonder because I might > commuting a little longer than I have planned for
work, this summer,
> with an internship about a hour away, or about 50 - 60 miles, through a
> canyon with some ups and downs. Initially I was planning on using 108v
> of orbital 34xcd.
If this the power density is correct, I would
> probably need 1200 lbs of batteries, being about 30 batteries, if I
> remember correctly that the orbitals weigh 40 lbs. This would be
> assuming that I can charge my batteries at work, which I don't know yet,
> because I would need to have the same power coming back home.
>
You will need to be able to charge at work ,
> Another question, in similar vein, I was thinking which type of setup
> would be best for a little more distance. I was initially thinking that
> I wanted to double the number of batteries (before realyzing some things
> that come into play, which will be mentioned later), and wanted to know
> which would be better for more range: having one string of 216V or two
> strings of 108V?
216 will be just a little better as less voltage drop but will your
controller handle it , If you can't use your Ev for the 60 mile or 120 mile
a day run would this mean you wouldn't build one ? Your kind of asking
about swimming across a big river before getting your feet wet.
I really don't have the option anymore of just one
> string at 216V, as the motor I am planning on using is a Presolite 4001,
> and I have heard that the voltage shouldn't exceed 156V, or arcing is a
> problem.
With a Zilla you could set the motor voltage to where you feel safe , so
pack could be higher
So I am down to having to parallel the batteries. So if I do
> parallel, is the best setup having the parallel strings being the same
> type of battery as the first string? Or would it be better for range,
> to get the heavier 6V batteries?
I think your going to need the heavier 6v batteries .
All this is assuming that my budget
> isn't as limited as it is, and that I have unlimited space, which I
> don't really have ( I am converting a 1974 VW bug).
did you see the bug in the album with the back cut off , ?
> One last thing is that I still want to be able to speed up the hills in
> the canyon, going the same speed as the traffic is, usually 65,
first you got a trip that's 60 miles , @ 60mph it will take you 60 min @ 50
70 min , just another 10 min but 50 will use a lot less power ,
but
> still being able to get to work. I have a curtis 1231, 500A
> controller. So I don't know if that is possible. But I only have so
> much money.
>
I would built the car with 6v golf cart bats and get as many in there as
possible , then get use to driving it around , and let that EV grin kick in
, once you get a feel for driving and see what different speeds do to your
range , you then could work up to that long drive, which you'll want to do
because driving your EV is so much fun , Your right on the edge of what can
be done , Take out the back seat , 26 golf cart bats , at 156v , the money
you save by using them instead of orbital will help pay for the new Zilla
:-)
Steve Clunn
> Thanks,
> Brian
>
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