EV Digest 3449
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Instrument recommendations wanted
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Controller isoaltion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Battery discharge tester idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: average DC from 220 after bridge?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Fwd: LiIon Batteries
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Extension cord?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: average DC from 220 after bridge?
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) OT: PR rant (Escape hybrid) and a little Prius experience
by Alan Batie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EVLN(SC802 series of Li-ion/-polymer battery charger ICs)
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Updated EV charging access list for San Francisco - 13 locations to date
-
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Free donor - Porsche 924 in Snohomish, WA
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Free donor - Porsche 924 in Snohomish, WA
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Fw: Gas Prices OT a Tad
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Solar powered car (long)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Solar powered car
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: battery power and range
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Welder as charger
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Welder as charger
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Solar powered car
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Organic 'radical' Battery, NiMH capacity, fast recharge...
by pekka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Solar powered car
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) average DC from 220 after bridge?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rhett T. George)
23) Cloud charger
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Henney Charger Died
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Solar powered car
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think we once determined guitar and bassoon were the instruments of
choice amongst the EVDLers :-)
As for your real question, I like having a battery temperature gauge.
For this EV at least it is just an LCD indoor/outdoor thermometer with
the "outside" probe stuffed down between the batteries in the handiest
battery box. Or you can add a temp sensor to the e-meter and combine
functions that way.
I also like having an ammeter in addition to the e-meter. Then can leave
the e-meter on voltage and still see the current (switchable between
motor & battery amps).
What controller are you using? If a Zilla you need to reserve some
warning lights for that.
If you are using an ADC/Netgain motor, you can hook the temperature
switch to a warning light. Actually it may be a normally closed switch,
so need something to invert it? And most have said the trip point is
rather high, but if it ever does light up you know it is time to pull over.
Jude Anthony wrote:
I'm planning the instrument panel in my Civic wagon. It already has a
tach and a speedo, both of which I intend to keep. The Emeter will go
on the driver's side window post, like a tuner's turbo gauge. There's a
small rectangular space for the existing fuel-and-temp gauge, which need
to be replaced, and 8 lights, of which three will be available: the
check engine, oil, and battery lights.
I intend to build a circuit to shut off the DC/DC when voltage gets low,
and the battery light will tell me when this circuit engages. I'll
probably use the check-engine light to tell me when the charger is
disconnected and the car is powered (I'll salvage the hazard lens from
some other car's instruments, making me NEDRA compliant!).
That leaves the oil light and the fuel/temp gauge ready to be replaced.
What neat things should I put there?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
>> The insulation on magnet wire ("varnish" or its many equivalents)
>> is only good for about 40 volts, so UL does not count it; they
>> pretend that the wire is uninsulated.
> Lee I have a problem with this 40 volts number.
This is just the number for normal cheap magnet wire; the kind used in
90% of all motors and transformers.
> The Specs I have for Phelps Dodge Armored Poly-thermaleze 2000 APTZ
> is good for 11Kv of insulation and 7Kv at 200 C.
There are *thousands* of kinds of insulated wire. UL will test and
report on anything that a manufacturer pays them to test. If this Phelps
Dodge wire is as good as you claim, there will be a UL file on it to
*prove* it.
And yes, of course there is magnet wire that can pass the UL 'double
insulated' hipot requirements. You'll find it is double- or
triple-insulated, i.e. it has 2 or 3 independent layers of insulation.
It just costs more.
> So by the time you get a real motor you have a couple dozzen of Kv
> of insulation from the Case, and Stator steel to the actual copper.
Frankly, I'd be surprised if it would withstand "a couple dozen Kv".
First, because it is unnecessary to go this high, and second because if
you did, the insulation would take up more space than the wire itself!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Clevenger wrote:
> Make sure that if your discharge rate is near the rating of the UPS,
> and you will be discharging for more than 15-30 minutes, that you
> install an additional cooling fan.
Good advice. In fact, I have a little UPS that came with a 12v 6.5ah
battery. The battery went bad, and I replaced it with a Hawker SBS-60
(60ah!) battery. But the UPS run-time only went from about 10 minutes to
15 minutes. Why? Because the inverter overheated and shut down. It only
had tiny heatsinks and no fan.
I added a fan, switched on by a thermostat on the heatsink. Now it runs
for more than an hour just fine.
But, then there is another "gotcha". The UPS controls charging with a
microcomputer. The microcomputer charges for 6 hours, notices that the
battery still isn't fully charged, and so it shuts down. I have to turn
the inverter output off, then back on to reset it. It will then charge
another 6 hours, and shut down again. It keeps doing this 3-4 times
until that big battery is finally fully charged. A nuisance, but it
works.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
elaine chiu wrote:
> I forgot the rule, is it about 2/3rd's or 145 VDC after I send 220 VAC
> through a rectifier bridge? (higher voltage bad boy coming)
No; its VAC x 1.4 = VDC. So 220vac x 1.4 = 308vdc.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For general info:
Here is a note I got from an engineer friend in Taiwan, regarding a
contact with Edan batteries.
Begin forwarded message:
Hi Bob,
I have contact with Edan. Those two models, which you mentioned, It
looks
like that the 20Ah battery is more matured. Edan has samples and it is
no
problem to make several hundred batteries to sell you. However, Edan
currently only supports single battery applications for those. Edan is
still
designing the battery management cirucits (battery monitoring,
balance, and
protection) for multiple battery applications.
If you can design the battery management circuits by yourself with
their
technical supports, you can email him directly to continue the detail
discussion. English is not the problem for them.
Best Regards,
Gary,
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The PFC chargers operating on 120 VAC make current proportional to the line
voltage.
If you are using a 50 foot #10 extension cord, the losses in the cord are
1.5 volts at 15 amps. The voltage will sag 1.5 volts out of 120 VAC causing
the line voltage to be 98% of normal. Current will be 98% of normal and the
power will be 97.5% of normal.
If you are using a 50 foot #14 extension cord, the losses in the cord are
3.77 volts at 15 amps.The voltage will sag 3.77 volts out of 120 VAC causing
the line voltage to be 96.8% of normal. Current will be 96.8% of normal and
the power will be 93.8% of normal.
If you use a 100 foot cord, the power at the battery pack will square.
-100 feet of #10 will produce 95% of normal power.
-100 feet of #14 will produce 88% of normal power.
Although a 50 foot #14 cord will carry 15 amps, it will make ~5% less power
into the battery pack than a #10 cord.
If you plan to use the full 20 amp capability of the charger, you should use
a #12 cord or larger.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 06, 2004 8:48 PM
Subject: Extension cord?
> Hi Everyone,
>
> Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he remodeled
> our apartment complex a couple summers ago, I'm in search of an
> alternative way to charge (without putting an extension cord out and
> under the front door). I've found a route for an extension cord
> (through the dryer exhaust hole) that will run along the side of the
> building and right to where I park. I'll be using a PFC-20, and I'm a
> little worried that it will draw more current than the extension cord is
> rated for. The cable is UL listed, 14/3 is written on the cord. Most
> extension cords this size are rated at 15 amps. Do I need to be worried?
>
> I imagine others have had to deal with this same problem. I'd be
> interested to hear the solutions.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
>
> --
> Visit http://www.evsource.com for rebates on Zillas during the month of
> April!
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> For a full bridge expect to see DC output (peaks) to be
> ~1.4 times (sqrt of 2) of AC input. If you rectify 220VAC
> (which is 308V peak) you get 308V"DC" output.
>
> Now, you of course still get 220V DC average (after all
> a bridge ain't a step up transformer :-)
To be precise, I think you mean 220V DC is the rms or effective value. The
average value of a full-wave rectified sine wave is 0.637 * Peak Voltage, or
0.637 * 311v = 198 v. But still, rms is the value you want to use. Mark T.
> but this is
> relevant for the loads which are spec'd for average
> voltage, like a light bulb: 12VDC light bulb will
> work just fine off of 12VAC which has 16.8V peaks
> 60 times a second (120 times if rectified).
> But 12V battery as a load is NOT OK: at 16.8V peaks
> the current spikes will be so high that ckt breaker
> is likely to trip. If you don't have one, the bridge
> will give up.
>
> Expect horrible power factor from your setup.
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, Apr 07, 2004 at 04:48:48PM -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Starting in midtown Manhattan during the morning rush-hour, the
> Escape Hybrid will be driven up, down and across the island over
> some of America's most congested streets and avenues.
It maybe a commuter nightmare and worst case for a normal ICE, but it's
probably close to best case for a hybrid: low speed, stop and go. If
they do it right, probably 80%, maybe 90%, electric.
> Escape Hybrid is the first
> hybrid electric vehicle that can comfortably accommodate five adults
> and their gear.
If it can, it's bigger than the non-hybrid Escape. You may be able to
squeeze three adults in the back seat, but it certainly won't be
comfortable.
> Indeed, the Ford Escape Hybrid is as environmentally friendly as a
> vehicle that runs solely on electric power. That's because a
> battery-electric vehicle needs to be plugged in to be recharged, and
> that electricity must be generated by a power plant, creating some
> smog-forming emissions.
Preaching to the choir here, this is just such total BS. Sigh.
I've just finished a week of driving a rented 2004 Prius. I do love the
car --- drove it down to SF and back over the weekend, and down to
Corvallis and back today and yesterday. I'm surprised at how much I can
run it on electric --- for a little while. It *really* wants to keep the
batteries at about 80%. I did manage to use regen to get it completely
charged a few times though. It's *so* close! I'm really hoping that
one of the Prius hackers figures out getting the EV mode button wired in...
--
Alan Batie ______ alan.batie.org Me
alan at batie.org \ / www.qrd.org The Triangle
PGPFP DE 3C 29 17 C0 49 7A \ / www.pgpi.com The Weird Numbers
27 40 A5 3C 37 4A DA 52 B9 \/ spamassassin.taint.org NO SPAM!
To announce that there must be no criticism of the President, or that we
are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic
and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public.
-Theodore Roosevelt, 26th US President (1858-1919)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is all well and good, but how does it help EV
enthusiasts that want to go higher quality LiP batts.
long-term... They charge and discharge at higher
currents.
--- Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> EVLN(SC802 series of Li-ion/-polymer battery charger
> ICs)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public
> EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for
> reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
>
> Semtech Launches Miniature Battery Charger ICs with
> Redundant Charge
> Termination
>
> CAMARILLO, Calif.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--04/05/2004--
> SC802 family
> protects Lithium-ion/Lithium-polymer battery-powered
> portable
> products from overcharging of faulty batteries
>
> Semtech Corp. (Nasdaq:SMTC), a leading supplier of
> analog and
> mixed-signal semiconductors for communications,
> portable devices,
> computers, and industrial equipment, today announced
> availability of
> the SC802 series of Lithium-ion/Lithium-polymer
> battery charger ICs.
> The two new devices feature a six-hour programmable
> charge timer and
> thermistor voltage input sensor to allow designers
> to program in
> redundant charge termination functions to protect
> portable products
> from faulty batteries.
>
> "Portable designers are looking at all aspects of
> their power
> systems to improve safety, and they increasingly
> want charge
> termination redundancy built into their products to
> ensure that
> overcharging isn't the cause of battery safety
> issues," said Eddie
> Yeow, Vice President of Semtech's Portable Products
> Group. "With the
> SC802 we give designers two types of redundancy
> without sacrificing
> the small size and strong features for which Semtech
> battery
> charging solutions are known."
>
> Portable product designers can program the SC802
> charger to
> automatically terminate charging after any length of
> time, up to six
> hours. The IC's thermistor input sensor can read
> voltage changes
> that indicate changing thermal conditions and can
> terminate charging
> when these conditions are outside programmed ranges.
>
> Like all of Semtech's battery charger ICs, the SC802
> chargers
> automatically detect the voltage levels in a battery
> and will
> initiate either a pre-charge current for deeply
> discharged batteries
> with less than 2.8 volts of power, or fast-charge
> current for
> batteries with power levels higher than 2.8 volts.
> Once a battery
> reaches 70% of capacity, the current is reduced
> while the voltage
> remains constant until the battery is fully charged.
> Once charging
> is complete, the SC802 goes into a maintenance mode
> to ensure that
> the battery remains at full capacity while a
> charging adapter is
> connected.
>
> The SC802 features a 14V input voltage range that
> eliminates
> additional protection circuitry required by other 5V
> chargers in the
> event of faulty adapters. The SC802 also provides an
> LDO mode that
> can be used to power the device directly from the
> power adapter when
> the battery is removed.
>
> The SC802 is available in an optional, lead-free 4mm
> by 4mm
> footprint, 0.9mm height micro-leaded package (MLP)
> that is ideal for
> use in cell phones, smart phones, charger stations
> and personal
> digital assistants. The SC802 chargers join the
> SC801 and SC803
> charger families of miniature battery charger ICs
> for portable
> designs. All of Semtech's battery charger ICs
> combine controller,
> thermally protected power MOSFET, reverse-blocking
> diode, and sense
> resistor-elements that comprise a complete charging
> management
> system. The device's packaging provides efficient
> heat dissipation
> to promote optimal system performance in a very
> small PCB area. This
> feature combination allows engineers to cut cost,
> board space, and
> design effort over competing solutions.
>
> Key Features of the SC802 family
>
> -- Two models: the standard SC802 and the SC802A
> with higher
> termination current
>
> -- Charge accuracy saves charge time, prevents
> overcharging
> damage, improves system performance
>
> -- Maximum fast charge setting can be adjusted
> using an external
> voltage control input on one pin
>
> -- Device available in lead-free packaging for
> environmentally
> sensitive designs
>
> Pricing and Availability
>
> The SC802 chargers are available immediately in
> production
> quantities. Per-unit pricing is as follows (quoted
> in 1,000-piece
> quantities):
>
> -- SC802IMLTR (standard MLP4x4-16 package) $1.37
> ea
>
> -- SC802IMLTRT (lead-free MLP4x4-16 package) $1.37
> ea
>
> -- SC802AIMLTRT (lead-free MLP4x4-16 package)
> $1.39 ea
>
> Semtech offers comprehensive design assistance,
> including field- and
> factory-based support. Volume pricing, and delivery
> quotes, as well
> as evaluation kits and samples, are available by
> contacting
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] The SC802 product datasheet is
> posted at
> www.semtech.com.
>
> About Semtech Semtech Corporation is a leading
> supplier of
> high-quality analog and mixed-signal semiconductor
> products. The
> company is dedicated to providing customers with
> proprietary
> solutions and breakthrough technology in power
> management,
> protection, advanced communications, human
> interface, test and
> measurement, and high-speed clock/logic products.
> Publicly traded
> since 1967, Semtech is listed on the NASDAQ National
> Market under
> the symbol SMTC. For more information, contact
> Semtech Corp. at 200
> Flynn Road, Camarillo, CA 93012-8790; phone
> 805-498-2111; email to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; or visit its web site at
> www.semtech.com.
> CONTACT:Semtech Corporation Terry Sears,
> 805-480-2052
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] SOURCE: Semtech Corporation
> 04/05/2004 08:02
> -
>
>
>
>
> =====
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor & RE newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
> http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
>
=== message truncated ===
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
(in progress)! ____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Vehicle charging access locations in San Francisco.
Plus one Costco location - 11th & Bryant
12 are City owned garages.
Each garage has one inductive and one conductive charger.
For more detail go to http://sfgov.org/site/dpt_index.asp?id=13451#rates
While charging is free, patrons must still pay posted parking rates,
which are given in the link posted.
The garages are:
Civic Center
Ellis O'Farrell
Fifth & Mission
Golden Gateway
Japan Center
Lombard Street
Moscone Center
Performing Arts
Portsmouth Square
SF General Hospital
St. Mary's Square
Sutter Stockton
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:51 PM 4/6/2004, you wrote:
My question is what's the deal with the firetruck behind the gate?
Is that unusual? I have my Dumptruck and Dozer in my yard. He has a
Firetruck.
(And I do have a picture somewhere of my Sparrow parked next to his Firetruck.)
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: John G. Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 12:50 AM
Subject: Re: Free donor - Porsche 924 in Snohomish, WA
> At 12:51 PM 4/6/2004, you wrote:
> >My question is what's the deal with the firetruck behind the gate?
>
> Is that unusual? I have my Dumptruck and Dozer in my yard. He has a
> Firetruck.
> (And I do have a picture somewhere of my Sparrow parked next to his
Firetruck.)
> Not a bit, John, some of my EV pix show my 1954 International School bus
camper, with open end, like a train ,observation platform<g>!
Bob
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: George J. Gillin Jr.
Hi Everybody;
Geo. sent me this one. Outs it in perspective a bit.
Seeya
Bob
Sent: Friday, April 02, 2004 7:01 PM
Subject: Fw: Gas Prices
Compared with Gasoline
Think a gallon of gas is expensive?
This makes one think, and also puts things in
perspective.
Diet Snapple 16 oz $1.29 .......... $10.32 per
gallon
Lipton Ice Tea 16 oz $1.19 ...........$9.52 per gallon
Gatorade 20 oz $1.59 ..... $10.17 per gallon
Ocean Spray 16 oz $1.25 .......... $10.00 per gallon
Brake Fluid 12 oz $3.15 ........... $33.60 per gallon
Vick's Nyquil 6 oz $8.35 .... $178.13 per gallon
Pepto Bismol 4 oz $3.85 ........ $123.20 per
gallon
Whiteout 7 oz $1.39 ........ . $25.42 per gallon
Scope 1.5 oz $0.99 .........$84.48 per gallon
And this is the REAL KICKER...
Evian water 9 oz $1.49..........$21.19 per gallon?! $21.19 for WATER -
and the buyers don't even know the source.
So, the next time you're at the pump, be glad your car doesn't run on water,
Scope, or Whiteout, or God forbid Pepto Bismal or Nyquil.
Just a little humor to help ease the pain of your next
trip to the pump...
Or insure yur EV grin when ya plugitin!
* LP8.2: HTML/Attachments detected, removed from message *
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Richard
I certainly appreciate your effort to convince me of the viability of EVs
here, but you are preaching to the converted :^D
Getting the rest of America to recognize the possibilities is the trick.
(how many generator-on-the-wheel questions have YOU answered? :^0 Thanks
to my time spent at EV Parts, I have answered way too many of them. I also
created from scratch the renewable energy portion of the EV Parts online
store. )
Please check out my EV/RE project pages-
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
BTW: I lived in downtown HB for 3 years 3 blocks from the pier, I know that
EVs and RE are not an easy sell there.
Keep on keepin' on!
Richard Kelly wrote:
Roy LeMeur wrote:
..
> Your relatively short commute and the ability to charge at work helps
alot.
> Would be substantially different with a 40 mile commute and no at-work
> charging.
..
If that was my commute, I'd look into these alternatives, in this order:
1. get a different job
2. carpool, or take train
3. get a CNG vehicle
4. get a hybrid
In my opinion, EVs fill a niche (wonderfully).
One-way commute distance
up to:
1 mile - walk
5 miles - bicycle
20 miles (mostly surface streets) - first-gen EV (lead sled)
40 miles (with freeway) - advanced production EV (high efficiency, advanced
battery chemistry))
40+ miles - alternative transportation
I think a large number of urban dwellers fall under the 20 mile commute,
but
fail to realize it. My wife and I drove the EV to the grocery store. On
the way out, we were approached by an older man. He seemed very interested
in everything about the electric car, but when I told him the range, it
seemed like his brain instantly switched off the possibility. He said, "Oh
no, no. People won't buy that." Yesterday, I was talking to a co-worker.
When I told him the range of my EV, he said, "but what if you want to go to
Vegas?". There's a very successful meme that has made it into the public
consciousness, that you need to be able to drop everything, and go to
Vegas.
How unrealistic! As if you couldn't have another car for trips like that.
It's this meme that EV proponents need to conquer. And the best way I can
see doing that is by getting them on the road. I drive the same route
every
day with the Electrica. There are alot of gas stations on the way, with
prices reaching $2.50. I'm bound to have someone behind me eventually, who
says, "look, there's that little electric car again." And then, "Wow, gas
prices are through the roof." That day, there might be a new synaptic
connection made in his brain, and we may end up with a new member in the
EVList.
Richard
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page � FREE
download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
LOL, I can't believe some folks fell for this. The solar panel working
at night under four feet of snow was a dead giveaway.
Ok I'll admit that I was thinking it was another scam until I got to the
snow part. I did like the part about the 60W solar panel charging the
Aux battery which runs an inverter to power the main charger to charge
the pack. Seems to me the quiescent power requirements of the inverter
and charger would leave no power for charging.
Hmm, the URL even tells you it's an April fools joke.
On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 02:22, Brad Waddell wrote:
> This story is about a solar powered EV - can a solar panel really collect
> enough power to run this vehicle once a day? thanks.
>
> http://www.lodinews.com/articles/2004/04/01/news/03_solar_040401.txt
>
> Brad Waddell ** FLEXquarters.com LLC ** voice-mail/fax: 602-532-7019
> Postal: 6965 El Camino Real Ste 105 #488 Carlsbad CA 92009 USA
> Plug-in to your QuickBooks data at www.qodbc.com
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Unless you have a really big pile of money, you're not going to want to
use an EV for this application.
It's difficult, but possible, to build an EV with a max range of 50-60
miles, but you want a DAILY range of 50-60 miles. That means you need a
max range of 70-80 miles.
And you're not talking flat ground, you're talking hilly terrain. Hills
really shorten your range, a mild 2% grade will cut you range in 1/2.
SO you need an EV with 100+ mile range. Not many folks have built one
of those. Your best bet is something like the Red Beastie, this is a
converted Toyota pickup with over 2400 lbs of lead.
Now you want a vehicle that will be deeply discharged and charged twice
a day. The pack is going to get VERY hot and will probably require
active cooling. Not only that, but you are going to be driving ~25,000
miles a year and doing 500-600 deep cycles per year. You're going to
have to replace the batteries just about annually and even if you use
low cost golf cart batteries you are still talking about $2,000 worth of
batteries every year.
Or you could use advanced batteries. Maybe $15,000 worth of Saft
NiCads, or $30,000 worth of NiMH, or $40-50,000 worth of LiIons. Of
course you'll probably need to spend about $5,000+ for a charger needed
by these batteries.
I think you're best bet is to buy an Insight or Prius, depending on how
many passengers you expect. With the current gas prices, these might
even be economically viable as well as ecological.
Building an EV is a great idea, building one for this commute is
probably NOT a great idea.
P.S. trying to go 65 mph up a hill will REALLY suck down the power.
With a heavy battery pack you are probably talking 100kw worth of
motor/controller. Your Curtis is only good for about 1/2 of that.
On Tue, 2004-04-06 at 22:25, Brian Staffanson wrote:
> I once heard that for every15 - 20 lbs of lead to give one mile of
> range. Is this a generalization for all batteries? Or do some
> batteries have better densities than that? I wonder because I might be
> commuting a little longer than I have planned for work, this summer,
> with an internship about a hour away, or about 50 - 60 miles, through a
> canyon with some ups and downs. Initially I was planning on using 108v
> of orbital 34xcd. If this the power density is correct, I would
> probably need 1200 lbs of batteries, being about 30 batteries, if I
> remember correctly that the orbitals weigh 40 lbs. This would be
> assuming that I can charge my batteries at work, which I don't know yet,
> because I would need to have the same power coming back home.
>
> Another question, in similar vein, I was thinking which type of setup
> would be best for a little more distance. I was initially thinking that
> I wanted to double the number of batteries (before realyzing some things
> that come into play, which will be mentioned later), and wanted to know
> which would be better for more range: having one string of 216V or two
> strings of 108V? I really don't have the option anymore of just one
> string at 216V, as the motor I am planning on using is a Presolite 4001,
> and I have heard that the voltage shouldn't exceed 156V, or arcing is a
> problem. So I am down to having to parallel the batteries. So if I do
> parallel, is the best setup having the parallel strings being the same
> type of battery as the first string? Or would it be better for range,
> to get the heavier 6V batteries? All this is assuming that my budget
> isn't as limited as it is, and that I have unlimited space, which I
> don't really have ( I am converting a 1974 VW bug). But I still want to
> know what any of you have to say about anything I have mentioned.
>
> One last thing is that I still want to be able to speed up the hills in
> the canyon, going the same speed as the traffic is, usually 65, but
> still being able to get to work. I have a curtis 1231, 500A
> controller. So I don't know if that is possible. But I only have so
> much money.
>
> Thanks,
> Brian
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: Welder as charger
I repair
> welders to keep the wheels on CE.You would be surprised of the tech
transfer to
> CE. Dennis Kilowatt Berube Current Eliminator
I wouldn't :-). I am just surprised you havn't built the worlds fastest
portable welder yet. Seeya soon and regards, David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I actually have one of those! Oddly enough I got it from Dennis Berube too.
Its an AC motor control that outputs DC to control a motor on a lathe or
mill or somesuch. Darn, I was going to sell it on E-bay for $$. Now I gotta
keep it and play with it. LOL. Thanks for turning on the juice to the bulb.
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Siebert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 5:15 PM
Subject: Re: Welder as charger
> Victor, et al:
>
> Another "charger" I have wondered about is a dc motor controller such
> as those made by Minarik. They seem fairly controllable and come in
> models for motors up to 3 hp. That might work for delivering 2.5 kva.
>
> /Bob
> On Wednesday, April 7, 2004, at 04:01 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
>
> > Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> >> We have an old Lincoln stick welder. Could I use this as a charger?
> >> Lawrence Rhodes...........
> > I did at one time. BIG bad boy. A 100A bridge diodes on heat
> > sinks were connected (I had only AC welder). If you have AC/DC model,
> > you got diodes.
> >
> > The original secondary winding was removed (aluminum square wire)
> > and I added my own made of just regular hook up wire. It produced 80V
> > which connected in series with 240V mains made 300VAC output total
> > nesessary for 420VDC to finish string of 28 optimas.
> >
> > Beware - the hook up wire gets hot and insulation of internal turns
> > melts if you draw 20A or so because of lack of cooling even with
> > fan running. You need to space turns apart.
> > 20A on the open air makes wire (ga14) a bit warm, but it was OK.
> >
> > You can adjust the current by the crank, but beware, there is
> > no voltage regulation. This boy is just as bad as its smaller
> > brother in that respect.
> >
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Richard, are you using trackers on your PV panels? I was looking at a site
that showed that tracking can be of great benefit and it can be implimented
pretty cheap. Rick and I here in Phx were thinking of using a screw drive
garage door opener to control banks of panels on shop built "Traxles". And
if I could just remember the guys name, a while back I ran across a fellow
that is building solar tracker controls using LEDs, the whole deal is dirt
cheap. Doh, its the guy building the distributed controller for EVs. .....
Oh well, if I remember it I will post. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: Solar powered car
>
> Your system appears to be an excellent example of what can be done.
> (now if we could just get the rest of Americans to see it that way)
>
> Your relatively short commute and the ability to charge at work helps
alot.
> Would be substantially different with a 40 mile commute and no at-work
> charging.
>
>
> Richard Kelly wrote:
>
> >Roy LeMeur wrote:
> > >Feeding a daily commuter EV and your residence _and_ having it all
> >ballance >out at the end of the year would take a whole lotta PV.
> >
> >Don't bet on it.
> >
> >All depends on the specific circumstances (house and EV use). Check out
> >these statistics at our house...
> >
> >Average home electrical usage: 10kWh/day (no air conditioner, CFL
lighting
> >everywhere)
> >Average EV electrical usage: 5 kWh/day (22 mile commute/day with top up
at
> >work)
> >Total usage: 15 kWh/day
> >
> >We have a 19-panel PV array which was sized around a Sunny Boy 2.5kW
> >inverter. I think this qualifies as a small system. In theory it should
> >produce an average of 15 kWh/day (6 hours average sun * 2.5 kW). In
> >practice, we fired it up last winter and it started producing 5 kWh/day.
> >Now, in April, it's already up to 15. What will it be in summer? I
don't
> >know. But real-world performance seems to be right on-par with
> >theoretical.
> >Total PV supply: 15 kWh/day
> >
> >This small system should cover ALL my electricity. And we don't live
like
> >hermits in a cave, either. We have two kids, TVs, computers, an
aquarium,
> >etc.. Even an electric lawn mower. ;-)
> >
> >Richard
> >1981 Jet Electrica
> >http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/474.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Limited-time offer: Fast, reliable MSN 9 Dial-up Internet access FREE for
2
> months!
>
http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup&pgmarket=en-us&ST=1/go/onm00200361ave/direct/01/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Eckhoff wrote:
I just finished reading one of the papers:
http://www2.electrochem.org/cgi-bin/abs?mtg=012&abs=0186&type=pdf In the
paper, it says that the specific capacity declines to 92% in 1000 (one
thousand) cycles while the graph it references shows a decline to 92% in 100
(one hundred) cycles. Either some one did not do a very good job proof
reading their paper or the decline reaches 92% and stays there for another
900 cycles.
Well, you did not read it with thought; it says the cycles for the PTMA
electrode are 1000/92% so cell life is determined by the anode, where
graphite looks promising (only slight degradation to 100 cycles) as
compared to lithium metal.
Pekka
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Are you talking about Duane Johnson, here is his web page.
http://www.redrok.com/main.htm
Lots of info there.
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Chapman
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 3:53 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Solar powered car
> Richard, are you using trackers on your PV panels? I was looking at a site
> that showed that tracking can be of great benefit and it can be
> implimented
> pretty cheap. Rick and I here in Phx were thinking of using a screw drive
> garage door opener to control banks of panels on shop built "Traxles". And
> if I could just remember the guys name, a while back I ran across a fellow
> that is building solar tracker controls using LEDs, the whole deal is dirt
> cheap. Doh, its the guy building the distributed controller for EVs. .....
> Oh well, if I remember it I will post. David Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
elaine chiu wrote:
>I forgot the rule, is it about 2/3rd's or 145 VDC after I send 220 VAC
>through a rectifier bridge? (higher voltage bad boy coming)
>
and Victor Tikhonov responded
"Careful, DC output (peaks) is higher than AC nominal input!"
To finish answering the question, the average value of full-wave
rectified 220 VAC is to multiply the voltage (less two diode drops)
by 2/pi or 0.6366. Yes 2/3rd's is close enough. An inductor with
a lot of inductance on the DC side of the rectifier will present
the average value of voltage to a load.
Cheers,
Rhett George
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I'm wondering if anyone has ventured to try the Cloud Electric Charger
http://www.cloudelectric.com/category.html?UCIDs=1233448
Certainly no PFC-20, but not $1500 either. I'd be interested in an
honest comparision.
Thanks,
Ryan
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, my wife (figures right) was driving the Henney yesterday (for the
third day in a row!) and the car died on her.
She was climbing a hill to our house and she said the car just died. She
managed to get over to the side of the road, and I went and towed her home.
When I got the car home, I checked the batteries. I don't have the sheet
where I wrote it down with me, but the batts are CRAZY out of balance.
The front pack of six had voltages from about 6.2v (highest) to 5.9
(lowest).
The Rear pack bats were out of balance, but much closer together. But the
weird thing is they were ALL over 7V. the highest being almost 7.5.
WHAT THE HECK?
So I put her on to charge, and went into the house. Came back out in about
3 hours and realized that there was NO amperage going into the pack.
All I can figure is the charger failed a day or two ago, and the reason I
didn't notice was:
A) I was not driving it and
B) The trips were all short.
So my questions to the group
1) How do I keep the pack from getting any worse over until I can repair or
replace the charger,
2) Can anyone reccommend an INEXPESIVE but quality charger for a 12 batt,
72v lead acid pack?
If possible, I'd like one that can go higher than 72v as in the future I'd
like to re-do her as a 144v system (still 12 batts) with a new controller.
But a cheap 72v is more important than one that can do 72-144.
I know everyone is going to say "Buy a PFC-20" and I want to. Realy I do,
but my current (pun intended) finances don't allow it. Honestly I don't
know if I can justify more than 4-500 on it right now.
James
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a fool
trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 01:52 AM 4/8/2004, you wrote:
if I could just remember the guys name, a while back I ran across a fellow
that is building solar tracker controls using LEDs, the whole deal is dirt
cheap. Doh, its the guy building the distributed controller for EVs. .....
Then there is the design for a completely passive solar tracking
system. Mother Earth News about 20 years ago had it. Used a pneumatic
cylinder with some kind of fluid/gas in it, and carefully placed panels
that had it 50% exposed to sunlight when aligned. As the sun moved (yeah,
I know) either more or less cylinder was exposed, changed the pressure
differential, and self corrected.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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