EV Digest 3453
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Henney Charger Died
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: FW: Henney Charger Died
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Why Advanced DC motors ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: got torque?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: got torque?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: is this true
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Subject: Re: got torque?
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: New! EVent in Port Townsend WA 4/17 and 4/19
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) EVLN(Frost & Sullivan's Technical Insights)
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Permanent magnet motor burnouts
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 3451
by "Dave Ganapoler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) DC Regen
by "Dave Ganapoler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: melted trojan 105
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Three-wheel Clever Car
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Info. on extension cord for apt. bldg.
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) re: 140 AC variac for 156 VDC pack, not 154
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: EVLN(Frost & Sullivan's Technical Insights)
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: EV digest 3451
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 140 AC variac for 156 VDC pack, not 154
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Nedra Drags Video
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Title Services
by "rwwies" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DC Regen
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: DC Regen
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DC Regen
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: DC Regen
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Why Advanced DC motors ?
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I have a 72 v lester with 12v alx. Its big and heavy , it runs on 120 or 240
ac and the meter goes to 30 amps :-) . $200 and 5 of those EV dvd's ?
shipping may be expensive , feels like over 50 lbs . When your batteries
are way down , and you go to charge them , it loads the charger to much , so
it dies ,' , .
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:05 AM
Subject: Henney Charger Died
> Well, my wife (figures right) was driving the Henney yesterday (for the
> third day in a row!) and the car died on her.
>
> She was climbing a hill to our house and she said the car just died. She
> managed to get over to the side of the road, and I went and towed her
home.
>
> When I got the car home, I checked the batteries. I don't have the sheet
> where I wrote it down with me, but the batts are CRAZY out of balance.
>
> The front pack of six had voltages from about 6.2v (highest) to 5.9
> (lowest).
>
> The Rear pack bats were out of balance, but much closer together. But the
> weird thing is they were ALL over 7V. the highest being almost 7.5.
>
> WHAT THE HECK?
>
> So I put her on to charge, and went into the house. Came back out in
about
> 3 hours and realized that there was NO amperage going into the pack.
>
> All I can figure is the charger failed a day or two ago, and the reason I
> didn't notice was:
>
> A) I was not driving it and
> B) The trips were all short.
>
> So my questions to the group
>
> 1) How do I keep the pack from getting any worse over until I can repair
or
> replace the charger,
> 2) Can anyone reccommend an INEXPESIVE but quality charger for a 12 batt,
> 72v lead acid pack?
>
> If possible, I'd like one that can go higher than 72v as in the future I'd
> like to re-do her as a 144v system (still 12 batts) with a new controller.
> But a cheap 72v is more important than one that can do 72-144.
>
> I know everyone is going to say "Buy a PFC-20" and I want to. Realy I do,
> but my current (pun intended) finances don't allow it. Honestly I don't
> know if I can justify more than 4-500 on it right now.
>
> James
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
> http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
> http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
>
> A little government and a little luck are necessary in life, but only a
fool
> trusts either of them. - P.J. O'Rourke
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James;
Not sure of how far you got yesterday...
but I noticed from looking at the Henney schematics that if you leave the key on it
will put all of the 4 18 volt battery packs in parallel. If you don't have a charged
hooked up, and are not driving it, then just leaving the key in the on position will
allow the 4 packs to somewhat equalize with each other.
This may help save your weakest set of batts, until you can get them charged.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Jaross wrote:
> OK, one step at a time. Would anyone be willing to briefly explain
> why the Advanced DC motors are preferred for EVs. What is their
> primary (industrial) application? Are there sources for
> used/rebuilt motors? What are some alternatives, or is the
> Advanced motor truly superior and should be bought new, no
> questions asked?
Advanced DC is a small motor manufacturer, in a market dominated by the
giants (GE, Westinghouse, Prestolite, etc.). But the "big boys" wouldn't
sell small quantities of motors to hobbyists. "Go away kid, ya bother
me" to borrow a line from W.C. Fields.
So, Advanced DC got their foot in the door by being the only ones
willing to sell to hobbyists. They apparently came to regret this.
Hobbyists are a troublesome bunch that demand a lot and pay very little.
Advanced DC's primary market is still industrial motors for all sorts of
battery operated vehicles and industrial machines. They've done pretty
good in that market, because their motors are cheaper and they are more
willing to work with the customer's needs than the "big boys" (who have
mostly fired their engineering staffs and are just "coasting" along on
their same old designs).
Yes, there are sources for used/rebuilt motors. Barring abuse, electric
motors last a very long time. You can get a motor out of an ancient
piece of industrial equipment, and with a little cleaning it will be a
good as new. In fact, older GE and Prestolite motors are highly valued
because they are better built than today's motors.
There is nothing "Advanced" about an Advanced DC brand motor; it's just
a brand name. If anything, "crude" would be more descriptive. Tom Edison
would have been familiar with every detail. They do not have interpoles,
compensating windings, or many of the other techniques used to make high
performance motors.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Coate wrote:
>
> The AC Propulsion 150 KW drive (ie the thing on eBay) has a "maximum
> torque of 223.8 N-m @ 0 � 5,000 rpm", which if my math is right is 165
> ft-lbs.
>
> I seem to recall people talking about numbers of around 200 ft-lbs of
> torque from a DC motor on a 1000 amp controller and 400 ft-lbs with a
> 2000 amp controller. Or maybe it was 400 ft-lbs per 1000, so 800 from
> 2000 amps?
>
> Are these numbers in the right ballpark for a valid comparison?
>
> _________
> Jim Coate
> 1970's Elec-Trak
> 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> http://www.eeevee.com
Yea right the 410 ftlbs was actually predicted from real data on Otmar's
single 8 incher.
I have seen some number that say 2x th is for the first Milli secs if
you can drop 2000 amp onto the commom without it moving...aka locked
rotor.
Also the curves that I can seen on the dyno with no tranny are quite a
bit higher than the 400 peak ftlbs curve. The actual numbers won't be
published until I can recreate them and document the conditions.
A Zillia 2K is going to make 400 ftlbs with some RPM, and I expect a
AvDC 9 incher will make 500, But the torque spike at the start of a drag
race may be twice this number.
A Locked rotor number from AvDC data on the 9 incher is 3460 amps makes
1077 FT Lbs. THAT will break stuff!!
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> I believe it was 360ish ft-lb from 2000A on an 8". But not at 5000 rpm.
> Does a torque speed curve for 8" and 9" even exist for EV voltages? Or
> do we have a few data points and some wicked inter/extrapolation...
>
> Seth
> On Apr 8, 2004, at 4:02 PM, Jim Coate wrote:
>
> > The AC Propulsion 150 KW drive (ie the thing on eBay) has a "maximum
> > torque of 223.8 N-m @ 0 � 5,000 rpm", which if my math is right is 165
> > ft-lbs.
> >
> > I seem to recall people talking about numbers of around 200 ft-lbs of
> > torque from a DC motor on a 1000 amp controller and 400 ft-lbs with a
> > 2000 amp controller. Or maybe it was 400 ft-lbs per 1000, so 800 from
> > 2000 amps?
> >
> > Are these numbers in the right ballpark for a valid comparison?
> >
> >
> > _________
> > Jim Coate
> > 1970's Elec-Trak
> > 1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
> > 1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
> > http://www.eeevee.com
> >
Rod has them, KTA has them, I have a few.
I am running the solder pot here before going to Bleed on the Gone
Postal all day.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>
> I could get a better accelerating vehicle with 2 - 8 inch motors, zilla
> 1K and a series parallel switch than a 9" and a zilla 2k
False.
the 2k will make 2x the watts.
A 1K and twin motors and series paralel will meet the torque in series
mode, but will not make the watts in parallel mode.
They will launch the same and then the 2k will clobber the 1k as soon 8
see more than about 2000 rpm.
I am repowering the Fiero with my 2K Zilla and a single 9 incher.
I wish I could get a sample of the new 10 incher in series mode.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seth wrote:
>
> So the 8" makes 20 ft-lb at 5000 RPM. And the AC propulsion makes
> 165ft-lb at 5000. Ok, 3 times the voltage and all that. Anyone have a
> 156V or 180V curve for a 9"?
>
> For a real surprise, look at power in versus power out a high power.
> 120V in (they say) at 900A makes 84hp. With 144 hp going in, assuming
> no voltage drop in their test rig. I sure hope the source is sagging to
> more like 90V under a 900A load.
>
> Seth
> On Apr 8, 2004, at 10:26 PM, Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
>Halt!!! I have better torque numbers for the 8 than that at 4000 rpm, it's like 39
>ftlbs, and 350 motor amps.
And I have only 88 volts on the motor.
It's amazing how little torque you get for the first hundred amps...
things get more interesting over 1000 amps.
> >
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes it's true. It's our first Earthday event here in Port Townsend, WA. On
the 18th we will be taking about a dozen electric vehicles ranging from
electric garden tractors and rototillers (gardening shouldn't be obNOXIOUS),
personal mobility scooter, electric bicycle & scooter, land speed record
Bonneville Salt Flats barstool, FT's drag bikes and other strange FT
vehicles, our yellow street rod, our high speed golf cart, etc. It should be
mass fun!
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:33 PM
Subject: New! EVent in Port Townsend WA 4/17 and 4/19
>
> Well... I bet Roderick is planning on posting this, but... (you always
seem
> to wait till the last minute Rod, didja double-check your SOC? Seriously,
> we appreciate all that you do Rod! :^D) here ya go...
>
> Sat/Sun, April 17-18, join the fun of Earth Day Every Day!, a 'first
annual'
> local celebration devoted to the joy of learning about living sustainably
> together on the planet.
>
> Check out- www.olympus.net/earthday then put it on your calendars. Plan to
> spend the weekend building stronger renewabable communities, Saturday
> morning with Main Street's down/uptown clean-up, speakers/events at Pope
> Marine Park Building , and ALL DAY Sunday with hands-on
> projects/games/demos/food and entertainment at Memorial Field. Electric
> vehicles, biodiesel fuel, green building practices, sustainable
agriculture,
> kids activities, much more, all fun. Ample opportunity to volunteer if you
> want to get involved, or have a booth.
>
> See what's what on the Events page at www.olympus.net/earthday More info,
> Judy at 385-5766 or email [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Roderick's Discovery Channel show will air on 5/2/04 at 8:00pm. "Suck Amps
> EV Racing" will showcase the "Gone Postal" drag racer EV. Don't Miss it!
>
> Gone Postal and Roderick will also be at the Lacey Alternative Fuel Fair
and
> Electrathon Grand Prix in Lacey, WA. on 5/8/04
>
> Be There!
>
> Contact Roderick at- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www.evparts.com
>
>
> -end shameless promo- :^D
>
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Is your PC infected? Get a FREE online computer virus scan from McAfee�
> Security. http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EVLN(Frost & Sullivan's Technical Insights)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-04/ti-mbe040804.php
Public release date: 8-Apr-2004
Contact: Pramila Gurtoo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
603-6204-5811
Technical Insights
Multiple benefits enable hybrid vehicles to race ahead of battery
and fuel cell versions
Technical Insights electric and hybrid vehicles in the Asia Pacific
analysis
Palo Alto, Calif.� April 8, 2004 � The popularity of hybrid
vehicles, which combine the beneficial attributes of an internal
combustion engine and a battery pack, offsets the roadblocks
confronting battery, electric, and fuel cell vehicles. With Asia
leading the electric vehicle revolution, intense development efforts
undertaken in this region are likely to promote the hybrid's
mainstream commercialization.
However, there are numerous obstacles to the entry of hybrid
electric vehicles (HEVs) into the mainstream. Long considered purely
environment-friendly, HEVs had, until recently, failed to convince
consumers of their true benefits and performance quality. Removing
negative perceptions such as frequent charging may be the first step
in achieving commercial acceptance.
"HEVs use a unique regenerative braking feature, which captures the
energy lost during braking and returns it to the battery, thereby
eliminating the need for frequent charging," explains Technical
Insights Research Analyst Rajesh Kannan. "HEVs also provide better
mileage, smoother acceleration at lower speeds, and superior driving
experience when compared to gasoline vehicles."
Premium HEV offerings come attached with equally high price tags �
30 to 40 percent more than that for conventional vehicles. However,
significant maintenance and fuel savings make HEVs economical in the
long run. While conventional cars consume 1 liter of fuel to run 15
kilometers, HEVs can run 36 km per liter of fuel.
Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) as opposed to HEV permit a complete
transition to an electricity powered vehicle. However, their key
advantages such as elimination of tailpipe emissions and fuel
savings remain on the sidelines due to numerous battery-related
problems. For instance, batteries used in such vehicles require
constant recharging, wherein, a single charge taking 4 to 5 hours
provides a mileage of just 80 to 130 km. Though the average car
buyer may find this time consuming future increases in mileage up to
160 km on a single charge may be critical in gaining quicker
consumer acceptance.
Moreover, though BEVs are 99 percent cleaner than gasoline-powered
vehicles, they transfer pollution to the power plant site where
burning of fossil fuels generates the energy stored in charging.
Fortunately, alternative renewable energy sources such as wind,
solar, or hydropower may eliminate pollution. The lack of durability
and short lifespan of battery packs threaten to position BEVs as
niche products for intra-city shuttle buses, golf cars, or other
specialized automobiles. Support infrastructure such as fast
charging stations in Japan could play a critical role in
facilitating easier and more convenient battery charging.
"Interesting developments in lithium ion batteries and efforts to
increase battery capacity and decrease battery size and charging
time may be imperative to widen the scope of BEVs," explains Kannan.
"BEVs' commercial compatibility also depends on alternative
technologies such as flywheels, ultracapacitors, and solar cells."
Fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) that use hydrogen to improve fuel economy
and reduce pollution are also creating a buzz in the EV field.
However, a more economical and feasible means to extract, transport,
and store hydrogen may be crucial for commercial success.
Though HEVs, BEVs, and FCVs confront individual challenges, all face
high development costs. Obtaining government support in the form of
incentives for manufacturers and tax breaks to EV owners could be
vital in catalyzing EV development and uptake.
###
Technical Insights is an international technology analysis business
that produces a variety of technical news alerts, newsletters, and
research services.
The Electric and Hybrid Vehicles in the Asia Pacific is part of the
Transportation Vertical Subscription Service, provides a
comprehensive analysis of the present and future development trends
for important members such as HEVs, BEVs, and FCEVs of the electric
vehicles family. It highlights key technical challenges and drivers
influencing growth, and provides in-depth examination of
cutting-edge developments. . Executive summaries and interviews are
available to the press.
Frost & Sullivan, an international growth consultancy, has been
supporting clients' expansion for more than four decades. Our market
expertise covers a broad spectrum of industries, while our portfolio
of advisory competencies includes custom strategic consulting,
market intelligence, and management training. Our mission is to
forge partnerships with our clients' management teams to deliver
market insights and to create value and drive growth through
innovative approaches. Frost & Sullivan's network of consultants,
industry experts, corporate trainers, and support staff spans the
globe with offices in every major country.
Contact:
APAC:
Pramila Gurtoo
DID: (603) 6204 5811
Gen: (603) 6204 5800
Fax: (603) 6201 7402
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
USA:
Julia Paulson
P: 210.247.3870
F: 210.348.1003
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Europe:
Kristina Menzefricke
P: +44 (0) 20 7343 8376
F: +44 (0) 20 7730 3343
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.frost.com
www.technicalinsights.frost.com
The following is the list of key industry participants: Advanced
Transportation Technology R&D Co.; AMM Technologies; Ashok Leyland
Ltd.; Bayerische Motoren Werke AG; Chin Fong Machine Industrial Co.,
Ltd.; Currie Technologies Australia; DAIHATSU MOTOR CO., LTD.;
DaimlerChrysler Corp.; Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.; Hino Motors,
Ltd.; Honda Motor Co., Ltd.; HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY LTD.; Isuzu
Motors America, Inc.; Japan Storage Battery Co., Ltd.; Kia Motors;
Maruti Udyog Ltd.; Mazda Motor Corp.; Mitsubishi Motors Corp.;
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.; Reva Reva Car Co.; Shenzhen Powerstar Tech
Co.,Ltd.; Shin-Kobe Electric Machinery Co.,Ltd.; SUCCESS SPORTS;
SUZUKI MOTOR CORPORATION; Toyota Higashi Fuji Technical Center;
TOYOTA MOTOR CORP.; TVS Motor Co.; ULB Corp.; Worley Group Ltd.;
ZhongQiang Power-Tech Co., Ltd. Keywords in this release: electric
vehicles, hybrid electric vehicles, HEVs, battery electric vehicles,
BEVs, fuel cell vehicles, FCEVs, regenerative braking, tailpipe
emissions, battery pack, fast charging stations, lithium ion
batteries, flywheels, ultracapacitors, solar
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
seems same problem an old stock new Lemco motor i have, normal friction
noise but with another strange noise which is like a grunch...
maybe a ball bearing ?
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: Permanent magnet motor burnouts
> Mmmm.... If the bearings were rusted one would think I would feel it by
> turning by hand. And the fact that turning one causes all to turn makes
> me believe they are all turning freely.
>
> Chris
>
>
> David Chapman wrote:
>
> > How about : Moisture got in the bearings and rusted them on those two
and
> > the other escaped unscathed? David Chapman.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 6:25 PM
> > Subject: Permanent magnet motor burnouts
> >
> >
> >
> >>Ok, this is odd.
> >>
> >>I pulled the Elec-Trak's mower deck out of the shed the other day and
> >>put away the snowblower. It has been stored on it's side, dry location,
> >>etc all winter.
> >>
> >>Fired it up. One of the three motors (36 volt PM motors) fired up no
> >>problem; the other two would start to spin and their thermo breakers
> >>would trip (overload).
> >>
> >>They spin by hand, and with the deck disconnected from the tractor
> >>spinning any one of them will cause the other two to spin as well (they
> >>are all in parallel). I checked the brushes on one and it's fine.
> >>
> >>When I tried bypassing the breaker for a second the motor ran at speed
> >>but was pulling *WAY* too much current. I shut it down.
> >>
> >>What would cause this sort of thing, and why to two motors in a row?
> >>
> >>Chris
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just bought a used VW with an Advance DC 9" double shaft motor...I was
thinking of using the second shaft for a regen system utilizing an electric
clutch from an old air conditioner pump and mounting a high output
generator/alternator to it...I'd have a button near the pot control so that
when I let off the accelerator the clutch would engage the
generator...anyone try this before...it was an idea given to me by a friend.
Dave Ganapoler
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I just bought a used VW with an Advance DC 9" double shaft motor...I was
> thinking of using the second shaft for a regen system utilizing an
electric
> clutch from an old air conditioner pump and mounting a high output
> generator/alternator to it...I'd have a button near the pot control so
that
> when I let off the accelerator the clutch would engage the
> generator...anyone try this before...it was an idea given to me by a
friend.
>
> Dave Ganapoler
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: melted trojan 105
> all this talk about melting post brings to mind a series of phone calls I
> had
>
> >
> One time I heard battery man say " what good is a cable clamp on your post
> if she's not tight , if you find one in you pack , hit her with a wrench
> and if she dosn;t tighten up , throw her out.
>
>
>
I would of told him to hit his post with a big hammer.
Tom
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ed;
I was glad it was posted. I am building a three wheeled electric.
Though the C.L.E.V.E.R isn't electric, it would be a good design for
electrics. Tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ed Thorpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 2:26 PM
Subject: OT: RE: Three-wheel Clever Car
> According to the press release, it will be powered by compressed natural
gas
> (CNG). So not an EV nor hybrid vehicle. That makes this information OT for
> the EVDL.
> -Ed
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 9:52 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Bob Bressler; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
> Dana Myers
> Subject: Three-wheel Clever Car
>
>
> Today's BBC News web site has an article on the Clever (Compact Low
> Emission Vehicle for Urban Transport) car, a 50 mph three-wheeler
> that carries two people in tandem. The tilting vehicle has been
> developed by nine European countries and is funded by the EU.
>
> The vehicle looks a bit like the Swiss SAM but has one wheel in front
> and two rear. The body and front wheel tilt in unison while the rear
> wheels remain level. According to BBC News, the car could sell for
> 6,500 pounds (about $12,000) after December 2005.
>
> See the following web sites:
>
> news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3610083.stm
>
> www.bath.ac.uk/pr/releases/vehicle
>
> www.carver.nl/home.html
>
> Don McGrath
>
>
>
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Since the landlord removed the outside electrical plug when he remodeled our
apartment complex a couple summers ago
Doesn't the NEC (national electrical code) require exterior power
receptacles on all residential structures?
I called the city building inspection office, and it turns out (at least
where I live) an outdoor electrical outlet is only required on single
dwelling units - i.e. excluding apartment buildings. So I guess I'll be
charging off of a cord that runs from the laundry closet, out the dryer
vent tube, along the side of the building, and to the car. Oh well,
could be worse.
-Ryan
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
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--- Begin Message ---
duh, 13 x 12v is 156, so that is my pack voltage. I'd been looking at
some variacs that say they can go up to 140VAC, which should be (1.4 x
140) 196 peak DC after the bridge, right? then, if 2.5 volts x 78
cells (13 x 6) is 195 volts, it should just work. did I get it right?
of course, down the line I plan to change over to 6v cells (for range)
and go with maybe 24 batteries, for 144VDC, and then I could almost
plug it into the wall, right? (zap!).
still learning. thanks for the teaching!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did Frost & Sullivan do technical research in order to write "Technical
Insights" or did they just cut and paste from Detroit's press releases?
/Bob
On Friday, April 9, 2004, at 09:53 AM, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
EVLN(Frost & Sullivan's Technical Insights)
[The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
--- {EVangel}
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-04/ti-mbe040804.php
Public release date: 8-Apr-2004
Contact: Pramila Gurtoo
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
603-6204-5811
Technical Insights
Multiple benefits enable hybrid vehicles to race ahead of battery
and fuel cell versions
Technical Insights electric and hybrid vehicles in the Asia Pacific
analysis
Palo Alto, Calif.� April 8, 2004 � The popularity of hybrid
vehicles, which combine the beneficial attributes of an internal
combustion engine and a battery pack, offsets the roadblocks
confronting battery, electric, and fuel cell vehicles. With Asia
leading the electric vehicle revolution, intense development efforts
undertaken in this region are likely to promote the hybrid's
mainstream commercialization.
However, there are numerous obstacles to the entry of hybrid
electric vehicles (HEVs) into the mainstream. Long considered purely
environment-friendly, HEVs had, until recently, failed to convince
consumers of their true benefits and performance quality. Removing
negative perceptions such as frequent charging may be the first step
in achieving commercial acceptance.
"HEVs use a unique regenerative braking feature, which captures the
energy lost during braking and returns it to the battery, thereby
eliminating the need for frequent charging," explains Technical
Insights Research Analyst Rajesh Kannan. "HEVs also provide better
mileage, smoother acceleration at lower speeds, and superior driving
experience when compared to gasoline vehicles."
Premium HEV offerings come attached with equally high price tags �
30 to 40 percent more than that for conventional vehicles. However,
significant maintenance and fuel savings make HEVs economical in the
long run. While conventional cars consume 1 liter of fuel to run 15
kilometers, HEVs can run 36 km per liter of fuel.
Battery electric vehicles (BEVs) as opposed to HEV permit a complete
transition to an electricity powered vehicle. However, their key
advantages such as elimination of tailpipe emissions and fuel
savings remain on the sidelines due to numerous battery-related
problems. For instance, batteries used in such vehicles require
constant recharging, wherein, a single charge taking 4 to 5 hours
provides a mileage of just 80 to 130 km. Though the average car
buyer may find this time consuming future increases in mileage up to
160 km on a single charge may be critical in gaining quicker
consumer acceptance.
Moreover, though BEVs are 99 percent cleaner than gasoline-powered
vehicles, they transfer pollution to the power plant site where
burning of fossil fuels generates the energy stored in charging.
Fortunately, alternative renewable energy sources such as wind,
solar, or hydropower may eliminate pollution. The lack of durability
and short lifespan of battery packs threaten to position BEVs as
niche products for intra-city shuttle buses, golf cars, or other
specialized automobiles. Support infrastructure such as fast
charging stations in Japan could play a critical role in
facilitating easier and more convenient battery charging.
"Interesting developments in lithium ion batteries and efforts to
increase battery capacity and decrease battery size and charging
time may be imperative to widen the scope of BEVs," explains Kannan.
"BEVs' commercial compatibility also depends on alternative
technologies such as flywheels, ultracapacitors, and solar cells."
Fuel cell vehicles (FCVs) that use hydrogen to improve fuel economy
and reduce pollution are also creating a buzz in the EV field.
However, a more economical and feasible means to extract, transport,
and store hydrogen may be crucial for commercial success.
Though HEVs, BEVs, and FCVs confront individual challenges, all face
high development costs. Obtaining government support in the form of
incentives for manufacturers and tax breaks to EV owners could be
vital in catalyzing EV development and uptake.
###
Technical Insights is an international technology analysis business
that produces a variety of technical news alerts, newsletters, and
research services.
The Electric and Hybrid Vehicles in the Asia Pacific is part of the
Transportation Vertical Subscription Service, provides a
comprehensive analysis of the present and future development trends
for important members such as HEVs, BEVs, and FCEVs of the electric
vehicles family. It highlights key technical challenges and drivers
influencing growth, and provides in-depth examination of
cutting-edge developments. . Executive summaries and interviews are
available to the press.
Frost & Sullivan, an international growth consultancy, has been
supporting clients' expansion for more than four decades. Our market
expertise covers a broad spectrum of industries, while our portfolio
of advisory competencies includes custom strategic consulting,
market intelligence, and management training. Our mission is to
forge partnerships with our clients' management teams to deliver
market insights and to create value and drive growth through
innovative approaches. Frost & Sullivan's network of consultants,
industry experts, corporate trainers, and support staff spans the
globe with offices in every major country.
Contact:
APAC:
Pramila Gurtoo
DID: (603) 6204 5811
Gen: (603) 6204 5800
Fax: (603) 6201 7402
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
USA:
Julia Paulson
P: 210.247.3870
F: 210.348.1003
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Europe:
Kristina Menzefricke
P: +44 (0) 20 7343 8376
F: +44 (0) 20 7730 3343
E: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.frost.com
www.technicalinsights.frost.com
The following is the list of key industry participants: Advanced
Transportation Technology R&D Co.; AMM Technologies; Ashok Leyland
Ltd.; Bayerische Motoren Werke AG; Chin Fong Machine Industrial Co.,
Ltd.; Currie Technologies Australia; DAIHATSU MOTOR CO., LTD.;
DaimlerChrysler Corp.; Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd.; Hino Motors,
Ltd.; Honda Motor Co., Ltd.; HYUNDAI MOTOR COMPANY LTD.; Isuzu
Motors America, Inc.; Japan Storage Battery Co., Ltd.; Kia Motors;
Maruti Udyog Ltd.; Mazda Motor Corp.; Mitsubishi Motors Corp.;
Nissan Motor Co., Ltd.; Reva Reva Car Co.; Shenzhen Powerstar Tech
Co.,Ltd.; Shin-Kobe Electric Machinery Co.,Ltd.; SUCCESS SPORTS;
SUZUKI MOTOR CORPORATION; Toyota Higashi Fuji Technical Center;
TOYOTA MOTOR CORP.; TVS Motor Co.; ULB Corp.; Worley Group Ltd.;
ZhongQiang Power-Tech Co., Ltd. Keywords in this release: electric
vehicles, hybrid electric vehicles, HEVs, battery electric vehicles,
BEVs, fuel cell vehicles, FCEVs, regenerative braking, tailpipe
emissions, battery pack, fast charging stations, lithium ion
batteries, flywheels, ultracapacitors, solar
-
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Ganapoler wrote:
> I just bought a used VW with an Advance DC 9" double shaft motor.
> I was thinking of using the second shaft for a regen system
> utilizing an electric clutch from an old air conditioner pump and
> mounting a high output generator/alternator to it.
It's a sound idea. Another common use is to have this generator or
alternator supply 12v to charge your accessory battery, just like a
conventional car does.
You really don't need the electric clutch. A generator or alternator
with no load on it takes almost no power. In fact, the best setup (if
you can arrange it) is to drive the generator or alternator directly
from the traction motor; but this may turn it too slowly to generate
enough power for regenerative braking.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
elaine chiu wrote:
>
> duh, 13 x 12v is 156, so that is my pack voltage. I'd been looking at
> some variacs that say they can go up to 140VAC, which should be (1.4 x
> 140) 196 peak DC after the bridge, right? then, if 2.5 volts x 78
> cells (13 x 6) is 195 volts, it should just work. did I get it right?
>
> of course, down the line I plan to change over to 6v cells (for range)
> and go with maybe 24 batteries, for 144VDC, and then I could almost
> plug it into the wall, right? (zap!).
Yes, that is right. *If* you get 140vac out of the variac, a bridge will
yield 196vdc. However, I am doubtful that your variac will literally
deliver 140vac out with 120vac in. They don't usually go that high.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Any results from the MiniDV yet? Is a DVD available yet?
Seth
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--- Begin Message ---
Try International Title Service <www.its-titles.com> 1 800 543 8626.
They seem to have the best prices available,although I have no
personal experience with this company.I would talk with your county
clerks office and get an affadavit to complete,and do this yourself.
Sometimes they don't always give out this information freely,but
they are usually leaglly required to.I have always done my own to
this point,for the cost of sales tax and title fees.The law varies
from state to state.Alabama,for instance,required only a bill of sale
on pre 1975 vehicles.Hope that this helps,and Good Luck.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dave,
My accessory drive unit in my EV call Electro I, a 1977 ElCamino, drives not
only a DC-DC and DC-AC rotory invertor, but also drives a Air conditional, a
power steering unit, and a vacuum pump.
The rotary invertors, is actually a Delco 145 amp 12 VDC alternator
invertors that also has a 7200 watt output at 120 VAC. It uses a Dynamote
unit that is design for it.
The motor output shaft drives all these units all the time, like a ICE unit
does. Driving with these units at no or minimum loads, only puts about 15
inch lbs of force on the motor.
Instead of using a DC to DC convertor off the main battery, which may drive
these units all the time, the main motor drives these units when the vehicle
is moving at times with no battery power.
I find that it provides a better braking on icy down hills, when I using the
electric heaters power by the invertor. It feels like the compression
braking of a ICE.
To REGEN power to the batteries, I used two safety contactors to disconnect
the batteries from the controller.
Also, A 120/240 @ 50 Amp VAC battery charger is on board that can be
connected to either commercial power or to the on board inverter unit by a 3
pole 120/240 60 amp VAC contactor.
I can turn on any mode of operation by a bank of circuit switches. Anytime I
let up on the accelerator, it activates a micro switch which controls relays
that disconnect the main battery from the controller and connects the rotary
inverter circuit to the onboard battery charger.
It also turns on explosive proof intake and exhaust fans for the enclosed
battery box.
It is only somewhat effected on a long down hill run, if the batteries are
at least 50 percent discharge.
It depends on your driving needs. My driving is now very short trips of
which all my charging is only at home base. My charging times vary from 10
minutes per day to 60 minutes per week.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ganapoler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 11:46 AM
Subject: DC Regen
>
>
>
> > I just bought a used VW with an Advance DC 9" double shaft motor...I was
> > thinking of using the second shaft for a regen system utilizing an
> electric
> > clutch from an old air conditioner pump and mounting a high output
> > generator/alternator to it...I'd have a button near the pot control so
> that
> > when I let off the accelerator the clutch would engage the
> > generator...anyone try this before...it was an idea given to me by a
> friend.
> >
> > Dave Ganapoler
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland Wiench wrote:
Hello Dave,
...
Instead of using a DC to DC convertor off the main battery, which may drive
these units all the time, the main motor drives these units when the vehicle
is moving at times with no battery power.
... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Then where do you think the main motor gets its power from
when it runs your rotary converter (which replaces
traditional DC-DC)?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Depending on which AC clutch you choose they can generally handle between 6
and 13 Hp worth of torque. But that is only when fully engaged. If you try
to engage them under load they tend to slip and can burn the clutch shoe.
Might work better if you could set up the clutch to ingage a fraction of a
second before the generator/alternator is loaded. David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Ganapoler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 10:46 AM
Subject: DC Regen
>
>
>
> > I just bought a used VW with an Advance DC 9" double shaft motor...I was
> > thinking of using the second shaft for a regen system utilizing an
> electric
> > clutch from an old air conditioner pump and mounting a high output
> > generator/alternator to it...I'd have a button near the pot control so
> that
> > when I let off the accelerator the clutch would engage the
> > generator...anyone try this before...it was an idea given to me by a
> friend.
> >
> > Dave Ganapoler
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You still get rotary motion when the car is still moving. The car does not
stop dead in its track everytime you let up on the accelerator!
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 09, 2004 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: DC Regen
> Roland Wiench wrote:
>
> > Hello Dave,
> ...
> > Instead of using a DC to DC convertor off the main battery, which may
> > drive
> > these units all the time, the main motor drives these units when the
> > vehicle
> > is moving at times with no battery power.
> ... ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>
> Then where do you think the main motor gets its power from
> when it runs your rotary converter (which replaces
> traditional DC-DC)?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-04-08 at 22:38, Michael Jaross wrote:
> OK, one step at a time. Would anyone be willing to briefly explain why the
> Advanced DC motors are preferred for EVs.
It's not so much Preferred as it is consistently available. Ok they
used to be cheaper than the alternatives, which makes them a bit more
preferred by some folks.
GE used to make a really nice EV motor that was a bit better than the
ADC (and a bit more expensive), but then they quit making EV motors and
controllers. They are excellent motors if you can find them.
Warfield makes a clone of the ADC that, by all accounts, is a better
motor and it's CHEAPER than the ADCs.
Kostovs used to be popular because they have interpoles, however they
aren't the best built motor around, they used to have problems with
out-of-balance fans and by recent reports the brushes don't handle high
currents well.
Prestolite used to make a decent motor that quite a few folks have in
their EVs, kind of a light weight motor though.
Not to say that there is any wrong with ADC motors, the are a decent,
reliable, low cost motor. However I'd reccomend at least looking into
the Warfield motors.
> What is their primary
> (industrial) application ?
EVs.
> Are there sources for used/rebuilt motors?
Ebay and the EV trading post are your best sources.
> What
> are some alternatives, or is the Advanced motor truly superior and should be
> bought new, no questions asked? Thanks, Michael
See above.
Another alternative are the Siemens AC motors/controllers being sold by
Metricmind, they are slightly more expensive than DC setups, but include
just about everything you need for an EV (except the charger) and you
get Regen.
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
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