EV Digest 3455
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 8" blues and stuck with an adapter plate. Suggestions. I am o n a
shoestring.....
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC Regen
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: EV digest 3451
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Modified Rudman Regs
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: got torque?
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV history site
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV history site
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV history site
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: EV history site
by "Eric Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by "garry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Azure Dynamics
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
by "Kevin Coughlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) OT: Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) More EV ebay stuff for sale
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I say find a clean used Aspire and transfer everything you can to it. I
mean everything - interior, driveline, suspension, wheels, brakes, right
down to the parking brake cable.
Or go the other way round: bring the body parts to the mechanical parts. As
I suggested before, keep everything where it is, and find a backyard bodyman
who will weld a rear clip on for you. They are everywhere here in the
midwest, guys who got laid off from their manufacturing jobs 5-10 years ago
and decided they'd never work for anyone else again (or just gave up looking
for work). They buy wrecks from the insurance companies and boneyards,
patch them up, and sell them. Some of them are pretty good.
You can probably find one of these guys by looking for someone who seems to
have a used car for sale every month or two. Or go to a boneyard and ask
around.
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Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation, or
switch to digest mode? See http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
1991 Solectria Force 144vac
1991 Ford Escort Green/EV 128vdc
1970 GE Elec-trak E15 36vdc
1974 Avco New Idea rider 36vdc
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
If all our bicycles turn into cars, that's a horrible figure.
It would scare the world.
-- Zhai Guangming, China Natl. Petroleum Corp.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<The only thing that is 19th century tech. on this car is the sheet metal.
Everything else is 2004, the controller, the battery charger, the batteries,
the Air ride system and full instrument systems.>>
Read my post again - your setup is '70's tech, the Baker or Detroit Electric is
what would be 19th century and still work. And as I said, if a Rube Goldberg
regen setup works consistantly, we shouldn't argue that you need an AC drive
and econobox. I think of most US cars as inefficient and undependable, so using
a Ranchero/El Camino as an EV is preferable to leaving it as an ICE.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> You really don't need the electric clutch.
Steve Clunn wrote:
> You're saying that when you wanted braking you would just energize
> the field of the alternator, then when driving have the field open?
Right! If your turn an alternator or generator with no electric load on
it, you'll find it spins pretty freely. More easily in fact than the
drag introduced by having a belt and a pair of pulleys. So, it is more
efficient to directly couple the alternator to the motor than it is to
couple it with a pair of pulleys and an electric clutch.
> you could also have a switch that if you needed extra juice for
>
My thought is that you would do something like the Prius; aim to keep
your 12v battery at about 3/4 charged. The alternator would be directly
connected to the traction motor. Hit it with full field current when you
want regenerative braking (such as when the brake light switch closes).
Adjust the voltage regulator to charge the battery to (say) 13.2v during
normal driving (which will keep it just shy of full charge, so there's
room for more amphours during regen). And turn off the field completely
during accelleration, to lighten the load on the motor.
Of course it's not as efficient overall as a good DC/DC converter and
motor/controller that can do regen; but it's a whale of a lot simpler
and cheaper! :-)
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
> Rudman Regulators... First 'mod': temperature compensation sensor.
> As designed the sensor is on the PCB. Since my PCBs are not going
> to be in the same enclosure as the batteries... put the diodes off
> on lengths of screened cable that is rated for 500V, and mount
> them on the respective battery.
That's a lot of extra wiring. Instead, I would suggest temperature
compensating the voltage signal from the battery to the remote regulator
board. That way, the regulator board itself has a temperature-stable
threshold, but the battery voltage it sees is temperature compensated.
> Second 'mod': bypass heat recovery (this one is a lot more complex).
> I would like to recover bypass heat as battery heating, plus use
> the temperature comparator to select recovery or waste resistors,
> and control 'mains' powered heating once the batteries are finished
> charging.
Again, this is likely to lead to a lot of wiring. As an alternative, how
about putting the regulators in a box that you can cool with a fan, and
optionally duct the air from this box thru the battery box. Open the
flap, and waste heat from the regulators heats the batteries. Close the
flap, and this waste heat is just dumped outside. The duct and flap
valve could be the sort of parts used for ducting clothes dryers.
If ducting air is mechanically inconvenient, then the regulators could
be assembled to dump their heat into a "cold plate". This is a closed
metal box or structure that you circulate water thru to carry the heat
away. A pair of hoses could carry this hot water to another cold plate
inside the battery box.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The numbers are in the right ballpark.
The question you have to ask yourself is, with only 200HP and only 165
ft-pounds, how does the AC Propulsion tZero (which is powered by the
150kW drive you saw on eBay) get a 0-60 time of 4.0 seconds? And why is
that so much of a better time then nearly any gas car out there,
including Ferraris? (I think the Ford GT finally beat the number - but
it has 550HP and 500 ft-lbs.)
The answer is that the ACP-150 has traction control that limits the
speed of the drive wheels. So when you see a tZero take off, it's
getting the maximum push from the tires all the way from 0 to around
45mph. Only at around 45 does the torque at the wheels start being less
than what it would take to burn rubber.
You can build much more powerful systems, but until you're traveling at
high speed, they're not going to benefit you any.
- - -
Also, note that these high amounts of torque for DC motors, while valid,
do not necessarily reflect the amount of torque you're going to get at
any real speed. When you start talking speed, after all, you tend to be
more concerned about HP than torque, and your HP is directly limited by
how much battery strength you have. If your batteries are not capable
of producing 150kW, then a more powerful controller than the AC-150 will
do you no good whatsoever.
jorg
ps I have no monetary or investment interest in ACP or their
controllers. But I do own an AC-150.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 1:03 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: got torque?
The AC Propulsion 150 KW drive (ie the thing on eBay) has a "maximum
torque of 223.8 N-m @ 0 - 5,000 rpm", which if my math is right is 165
ft-lbs.
I seem to recall people talking about numbers of around 200 ft-lbs of
torque from a DC motor on a 1000 amp controller and 400 ft-lbs with a
2000 amp controller. Or maybe it was 400 ft-lbs per 1000, so 800 from
2000 amps?
Are these numbers in the right ballpark for a valid comparison?
_________
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak
1992 Chevy S-10 BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhistry.htm
One of the staff at Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI,
in Portland, OR) found this site when looking for pictures of
Thomas Edison. There's a rare one of him (Edison, not the staff
member) driving an electric car sometime around 1914 with his
son. Note that he was known for being quite reckless (even derailing
his electric train multiple times) so his family kept him from
driving as much as possible, making this a quite rare photo.
There's a nice picture of a Henney, too, along with many others.
Quite an extensive list. Links to currently active sites, too.
Since I hadn't seen reference to this before, I thought some
of you might be interested.
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This thread has made me change my mind on how I was originally going to
do things. I was going to run the AC and PS off of a separate motor
only. I like Roland's idea about braking on long hills. I've been
paying attention to my driving style lately, and I use the engine's
compression braking quite often on the hills I normally encounter. I'd
miss that. So I'm going to couple the PS and AC to the traction motor,
and here's where I need advice. I still want to use the 2hp motor I
have to run the PS and AC when the traction motor isn't turning (at
stops, etc.) so I don't have to spin the traction motor and hold the
clutch in. Anyone know of a mechanism that will allow the traction
motor to power the accessories while driving, and the smaller motor to
take over when RPM falls below a set level? (I'm thinking of how a
bicycle works, when you are just coasting, you don't have to pump your
legs, even though you can without affecting the system).
Thanks,
Ryan
Lee Hart wrote:
Lee Hart wrote:
You really don't need the electric clutch.
Steve Clunn wrote:
You're saying that when you wanted braking you would just energize
the field of the alternator, then when driving have the field open?
Right! If your turn an alternator or generator with no electric load on
it, you'll find it spins pretty freely. More easily in fact than the
drag introduced by having a belt and a pair of pulleys. So, it is more
efficient to directly couple the alternator to the motor than it is to
couple it with a pair of pulleys and an electric clutch.
you could also have a switch that if you needed extra juice for
My thought is that you would do something like the Prius; aim to keep
your 12v battery at about 3/4 charged. The alternator would be directly
connected to the traction motor. Hit it with full field current when you
want regenerative braking (such as when the brake light switch closes).
Adjust the voltage regulator to charge the battery to (say) 13.2v during
normal driving (which will keep it just shy of full charge, so there's
room for more amphours during regen). And turn off the field completely
during accelleration, to lighten the load on the motor.
Of course it's not as efficient overall as a good DC/DC converter and
motor/controller that can do regen; but it's a whale of a lot simpler
and cheaper! :-)
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where are the pictures?
pictures of
Thomas Edison. There's a rare one of him (Edison, not the staff
member) driving an electric car sometime around 1914 with his
son. Note that he was known for being quite reckless (even derailing
his electric train multiple times) so his family kept him from
driving as much as possible, making this a quite rare photo.
There's a nice picture of a Henney, too, along with many others.
Quite an extensive list. Links to currently active sites, too.
--
For April rebates on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay, found it. Just have to click on the "E".
Great photo!
-Ryan
Eric Johnson wrote:
http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhistry.htm
One of the staff at Oregon Museum of Science and Industry (OMSI,
in Portland, OR) found this site when looking for pictures of
Thomas Edison. There's a rare one of him (Edison, not the staff
member) driving an electric car sometime around 1914 with his
son. Note that he was known for being quite reckless (even derailing
his electric train multiple times) so his family kept him from
driving as much as possible, making this a quite rare photo.
There's a nice picture of a Henney, too, along with many others.
Quite an extensive list. Links to currently active sites, too.
Since I hadn't seen reference to this before, I thought some
of you might be interested.
--
Eric Johnson
Portland, OR
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Today I dropped the Prizm pack. Again. This time, before dropping the
pack I took it out on a road run. At 9ah down, the pack was pulling 300
volts at 60amps. At 10ah down, the voltage was in the 280's, and by the
time I got home I could barely make 50amps at 250 volts. Dropped like a
stone going up the hill; I could see the current go from 100 to 90 to 80
to 60 to 50, etc. Resting voltage though was a nice 312 volts. Aarrggh..
So we dropped the pack. It's still a pain. First it was time to check
battery voltages. Surely some of the batteries must be dead.
Nope. All were 12.6, lowest was 12.5. So much for a reversed cell or a
blown battery.
Then checked them under load. Using the hand-held battery tester all of
them would start out at over 500 CCA, which is about the same as my
control battery (the tester puts about a 30amp load on the battery and
dissapates it as heat).
In the first four strings I noticed something: Most batteries could hold
500CCA for 20 seconds. However four of the first 28 would drift down to
400 as the seconds wore on.
Second lesson: You need to discharge for a length of time; Hawkers can
fool you even under load.
After testing 28 batteries in sets of seven, the battery tester died.
Basically the wires overheated. We did some quick repairs and quick
tested the remaining 22 batteries. All showed nice 500+, but we only did
5 seconds or so each.
I'm wondering if the four batteries in the pack that drooped plus 3 more
in the back are the problem. But what I really need is a serious battery
tester. One that can pull 60 amps from each side of the pack.
This could be difficult, but here is my thought:
Right now with the main pack switch off I have four quadrants, two have
144 volts, two have 156 volts. Could I use 120 volt space heaters as
loads for this? Maybe oil-filled ones or something. Or would 156 volts
be too much?
If I could load down a quadrant with 30amps, that would be the same as
motoring at 60amps. Some of the batteries would die early; I should be
able to find them. Then of course how do I recharge the quadrant, or am
I going to end up with a pack that is *seriously* out of balance.
Help!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
communication challenges.>>
I doubt there is one graduate of Gallaudet University that writes in such broken
English, and the majority of them were born deaf - his writing is more like
someone with English as a second language. Hope his mental processes are less
egocentric than his posts lead most to believe.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yeah, I could have made that clearer. The link I was given actually
was http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhiste.htm, which is the one
with Edison's picture on it. I thought everyone would want to
look at all the pages, which link from the one I gave.
They all seem to reside on http://www.econogics.com/ev/, which
is where I actually found the Henney picture. Vast list of all
the sub-pages and images, like an FTP list.
Hopefully, the alphabetical links off evhistry.htm will let everyone
get to what they might be interested in.
Enjoy!
--
Eric
>--- Original Message ---
>Okay, found it. Just have to click on the "E".
>
>Great photo!
>
>-Ryan
>
>Eric Johnson wrote:
>
>>http://www.econogics.com/ev/evhistry.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does this comment have to do with EV's? What's more, it's rude and
doesn't belong here (along with all the snide remarks today about
Rolands setup).
Whew...back on topic - has anyone else attempted to build their own
electric motor? That would make one interesting project.
-Ryan
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
<<Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
communication challenges.>>
I doubt there is one graduate of Gallaudet University that writes in such broken
English, and the majority of them were born deaf - his writing is more like
someone with English as a second language. Hope his mental processes are less
egocentric than his posts lead most to believe.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Building your own motor is very satisfying, even if it does take a bit of
time to make one capable of moving you and your vehicle.
There are lots of things to be learnt along the way both with the motor and
whatever you use as a controller.
I cant recommend building your own motor highly enough, the insight you will
get from it is priceless and the joy of riding around with it, well lets
just say that the "ev grin" doesn't quite cover it.
Garry Stanley
Cable.net.nz
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anybody ever heard of Azure Dynamics and their Hybrid engine? Here
is a press release:
<http://www.azuredynamics.com/april42003b.htm>
http://www.azuredynamics.com/april42003b.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> <<Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
> communication challenges.>>
>
> I doubt there is one graduate of Gallaudet University that writes in such
broken
> English, and the majority of them were born deaf - his writing is more
like
> someone with English as a second language. Hope his mental processes are
less
> egocentric than his posts lead most to believe.
Judging by his photos, I'd guess english might very well be his second
language. Imagine being deaf and ESL.. touch challenging, no?
Anyway, his english is still better than a lot of users of chat rooms that I
talk to every day. It's just a bit wacky - he's obviously literate.
Anyway, who cares? The kid is playing with building his own motors, he's
gotten a board scooter up to 87 mph, he's causing other people to talk about
electric scooters. If his personal persona is being egocentric, that's just
fine - look at how many of our famous inventers were egocentric - not to
mention a few venerable racers on this list ;-)
And, I get the impression he's not that old - and also, I get te impression
that he's not nearly so egocentric in person. I remember having a lot of
trouble learning how to relate to people on networks when I first started
trying. The cool thing about him is he's into the technology, and he's not
afraid to get his hands dirty - this is definately someone on our side. I
wish he was on the EVDL
Seriously, I'm delighted that he's out there being wacky. Wacky is not
low-profile - wacky gets you noticed. And the thing EVs need most is to be
noticed. You'd be amazed how many people I talk to every week who don't even
know EVs are a option, or who have very strange preconceptions about te
limitations of them. I talked to someone yesterday who said that electric
vehicles suck because they all look like spaceships on wheels - I showed him
Rod's street rod, and he started showing some serious interest in
electrics..
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm thinking the electric clutch mentioned earlier. Connect the A/C
compressor and PS pump to the small motor. Connect an electric clutch
used to power A/C units on the tailshaft of the engine, and connect via
a belt to the smaller motor, A/C pump, and P/S pump. Engage the clutch
and don't energize the field on the smaller motor when driving - big
motor runs everything, and small motor freewheels. When your big motor
rpm drops below a certain amount, a relay energizes the small motor
while disengaging the A/C clutch. This would allow you to always have
power steering, even while creeping around in parking lots.
Just my thought. I know some fire trucks have a generator connected to
the transmission and heat sink setup for "retarding" on downhills, just
engage the field and generate some heat to assist it in slowing down
(it's automatic when the throttle pedal comes up and retard is on). And,
when stopped, you can use the truck as a generator for lighting.
Kevin
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:19 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
This thread has made me change my mind on how I was originally going to
do things. I was going to run the AC and PS off of a separate motor
only. I like Roland's idea about braking on long hills. I've been
paying attention to my driving style lately, and I use the engine's
compression braking quite often on the hills I normally encounter. I'd
miss that. So I'm going to couple the PS and AC to the traction motor,
and here's where I need advice. I still want to use the 2hp motor I
have to run the PS and AC when the traction motor isn't turning (at
stops, etc.) so I don't have to spin the traction motor and hold the
clutch in. Anyone know of a mechanism that will allow the traction
motor to power the accessories while driving, and the smaller motor to
take over when RPM falls below a set level? (I'm thinking of how a
bicycle works, when you are just coasting, you don't have to pump your
legs, even though you can without affecting the system).
Thanks,
Ryan
Lee Hart wrote:
>Lee Hart wrote:
>
>
>>>You really don't need the electric clutch.
>>>
>>>
>
>Steve Clunn wrote:
>
>
>>You're saying that when you wanted braking you would just energize the
>>field of the alternator, then when driving have the field open?
>>
>>
>
>Right! If your turn an alternator or generator with no electric load on
>it, you'll find it spins pretty freely. More easily in fact than the
>drag introduced by having a belt and a pair of pulleys. So, it is more
>efficient to directly couple the alternator to the motor than it is to
>couple it with a pair of pulleys and an electric clutch.
>
>
>
>>you could also have a switch that if you needed extra juice for
>>
>>
>>
>
>My thought is that you would do something like the Prius; aim to keep
>your 12v battery at about 3/4 charged. The alternator would be directly
>connected to the traction motor. Hit it with full field current when
>you want regenerative braking (such as when the brake light switch
>closes). Adjust the voltage regulator to charge the battery to (say)
>13.2v during normal driving (which will keep it just shy of full
>charge, so there's room for more amphours during regen). And turn off
>the field completely during accelleration, to lighten the load on the
>motor.
>
>Of course it's not as efficient overall as a good DC/DC converter and
>motor/controller that can do regen; but it's a whale of a lot simpler
>and cheaper! :-)
>
>
--
For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
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--- Begin Message ---
It's very likely that English is his second language. I worked with quite a
few folks who had been born deaf. Their first language is American Sign
Language (ASL) and they think in ASL. They can be quite intelligent and
educated, and still not be able to write in English much better than many
foreignors. Imagine not learning English until you're 7 or 8 (or maybe a
bit older), and then you learn to read and write it without ever hearing it
spoken. Most foreignors think in their native tongue and then try to
translate their thoughts to English, with varying degrees of success. It's
exactly the same with deaf folks who have been brought up "speaking" ASL and
think in ASL, and then have to translate their thoughts to English which
they learned later. ASL is a language unto itself and not a visual
representation of English.
Dave Davidson
Glen Burnie, MD
1993 Dodge TEVan
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:58:11 -0700
<<Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
communication challenges.>>
I doubt there is one graduate of Gallaudet University that writes in such
broken
English, and the majority of them were born deaf - his writing is more like
someone with English as a second language. Hope his mental processes are
less
egocentric than his posts lead most to believe.
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page � FREE
download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The EV habit takes it's toll with the wife, I'm
selling more stuff to pay for my new Alltrax control
for my GE Elec Trak,
Rod
These are 74Vdc BLDC motors with integrated controls.
Item number: 3809178317
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3809178317&category=42920&sspagename=STRK%3AMESSE%3AIT&rd=1
Item number: 3809178377
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3809178377&category=42920&sspagename=STRK%3AMESSE%3AIT&rd=1
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have used some Cadet heaters for this type of thing. You will need to run
the nichrome from DC and the shaded pole blower motors from AC. The wiring
on the back is easy to figure out.
A second option is electric water heater elements. They need no blower but
they need water around them to prevent them from burning up. I don't know
how long 120 volt models will last at 156 volts. You would need more 240
volt models to get the same battery current.
Your battery is already severely out of balance. All modules need to be
fully charged before reassembly into a battery pack.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:38 PM
Subject: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
> Today I dropped the Prizm pack. Again. This time, before dropping the
> pack I took it out on a road run. At 9ah down, the pack was pulling 300
> volts at 60amps. At 10ah down, the voltage was in the 280's, and by the
> time I got home I could barely make 50amps at 250 volts. Dropped like a
> stone going up the hill; I could see the current go from 100 to 90 to 80
> to 60 to 50, etc. Resting voltage though was a nice 312 volts. Aarrggh..
>
> So we dropped the pack. It's still a pain. First it was time to check
> battery voltages. Surely some of the batteries must be dead.
>
> Nope. All were 12.6, lowest was 12.5. So much for a reversed cell or a
> blown battery.
>
> Then checked them under load. Using the hand-held battery tester all of
> them would start out at over 500 CCA, which is about the same as my
> control battery (the tester puts about a 30amp load on the battery and
> dissapates it as heat).
>
> In the first four strings I noticed something: Most batteries could hold
> 500CCA for 20 seconds. However four of the first 28 would drift down to
> 400 as the seconds wore on.
>
> Second lesson: You need to discharge for a length of time; Hawkers can
> fool you even under load.
>
> After testing 28 batteries in sets of seven, the battery tester died.
> Basically the wires overheated. We did some quick repairs and quick
> tested the remaining 22 batteries. All showed nice 500+, but we only did
> 5 seconds or so each.
>
> I'm wondering if the four batteries in the pack that drooped plus 3 more
> in the back are the problem. But what I really need is a serious battery
> tester. One that can pull 60 amps from each side of the pack.
>
> This could be difficult, but here is my thought:
>
> Right now with the main pack switch off I have four quadrants, two have
> 144 volts, two have 156 volts. Could I use 120 volt space heaters as
> loads for this? Maybe oil-filled ones or something. Or would 156 volts
> be too much?
>
> If I could load down a quadrant with 30amps, that would be the same as
> motoring at 60amps. Some of the batteries would die early; I should be
> able to find them. Then of course how do I recharge the quadrant, or am
> I going to end up with a pack that is *seriously* out of balance.
>
> Help!
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 4:19 PM
Subject: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
So I'm going to couple the PS and AC to the traction motor,
> and here's where I need advice.
this is what I'm doing also ,
I still want to use the 2hp motor I
> have to run the PS and AC when the traction motor isn't turning (at
> stops, etc.) so I don't have to spin the traction motor and hold the
> clutch in.
You could put it in neutral and keep the traction motor turning or idling as
it were, there are a few ways to do this , ,
Anyone know of a mechanism that will allow the traction
> motor to power the accessories while driving, and the smaller motor to
> take over when RPM falls below a set level? (I'm thinking of how a
> bicycle works, when you are just coasting, you don't have to pump your
> legs, even though you can without affecting the system).
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ryan
>
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> >Lee Hart wrote:
> >
> >
> >>>You really don't need the electric clutch.
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >Steve Clunn wrote:
> >
> >
> >>You're saying that when you wanted braking you would just energize
> >>the field of the alternator, then when driving have the field open?
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Right! If your turn an alternator or generator with no electric load on
> >it, you'll find it spins pretty freely. More easily in fact than the
> >drag introduced by having a belt and a pair of pulleys. So, it is more
> >efficient to directly couple the alternator to the motor than it is to
> >couple it with a pair of pulleys and an electric clutch.
> >
> >
> >
>
> >>you could also have a switch that if you needed extra juice for
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >My thought is that you would do something like the Prius; aim to keep
> >your 12v battery at about 3/4 charged. The alternator would be directly
> >connected to the traction motor. Hit it with full field current when you
> >want regenerative braking (such as when the brake light switch closes).
> >Adjust the voltage regulator to charge the battery to (say) 13.2v during
> >normal driving (which will keep it just shy of full charge, so there's
> >room for more amphours during regen). And turn off the field completely
> >during accelleration, to lighten the load on the motor.
> >
> >Of course it's not as efficient overall as a good DC/DC converter and
> >motor/controller that can do regen; but it's a whale of a lot simpler
> >and cheaper! :-)
> >
> >
>
> --
> For the best price on Zillas, visit http://www.evsource.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mmm.... It's odd though that they all read the same voltage, within 5
100ths of a volt of each other. Most within 1-2 100ths of each other
(digital VOM)
I think I will spend the next few days building the MOAD (mother of all
dischargers). Plan will be a large metal trash can, a pair of 2*4's over
the top with small wood squares going down into the can. Mounted on the
squares will be the 4500 watt element. I'll run it at full 300 volts,
with the pack split into two 300 volts strings (testing seperately).
10 gauge insulated wires will go from the pack (which will be split by
the main disconnect while I am hooking it up) to a 30amp Square D
disconnect switch with the obligatory 30 amp DC rated fuse. The output
of this will go to the water heater.
The plan is to have the water heater and trashcan 10 feet away filled to
the top of the element with cold water. I turn on the pack disconnect,
then close the circuit with the Square D disconnect. Let the batteries
run down and find the bad ones. Then break the connection with the S-D
disconnect, then break the pack, then disconnect the wires.
Then do the same for the other string.
Sound good/right/safe? Technically the Square D box is rated for 240
volts at 30 amps, but unless I want to spend a large amount of money for
a big disconnect it will have to do.
Chris
Joe Smalley wrote:
I have used some Cadet heaters for this type of thing. You will need to run
the nichrome from DC and the shaded pole blower motors from AC. The wiring
on the back is easy to figure out.
A second option is electric water heater elements. They need no blower but
they need water around them to prevent them from burning up. I don't know
how long 120 volt models will last at 156 volts. You would need more 240
volt models to get the same battery current.
Your battery is already severely out of balance. All modules need to be
fully charged before reassembly into a battery pack.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:38 PM
Subject: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
Today I dropped the Prizm pack. Again. This time, before dropping the
pack I took it out on a road run. At 9ah down, the pack was pulling 300
volts at 60amps. At 10ah down, the voltage was in the 280's, and by the
time I got home I could barely make 50amps at 250 volts. Dropped like a
stone going up the hill; I could see the current go from 100 to 90 to 80
to 60 to 50, etc. Resting voltage though was a nice 312 volts. Aarrggh..
So we dropped the pack. It's still a pain. First it was time to check
battery voltages. Surely some of the batteries must be dead.
Nope. All were 12.6, lowest was 12.5. So much for a reversed cell or a
blown battery.
Then checked them under load. Using the hand-held battery tester all of
them would start out at over 500 CCA, which is about the same as my
control battery (the tester puts about a 30amp load on the battery and
dissapates it as heat).
In the first four strings I noticed something: Most batteries could hold
500CCA for 20 seconds. However four of the first 28 would drift down to
400 as the seconds wore on.
Second lesson: You need to discharge for a length of time; Hawkers can
fool you even under load.
After testing 28 batteries in sets of seven, the battery tester died.
Basically the wires overheated. We did some quick repairs and quick
tested the remaining 22 batteries. All showed nice 500+, but we only did
5 seconds or so each.
I'm wondering if the four batteries in the pack that drooped plus 3 more
in the back are the problem. But what I really need is a serious battery
tester. One that can pull 60 amps from each side of the pack.
This could be difficult, but here is my thought:
Right now with the main pack switch off I have four quadrants, two have
144 volts, two have 156 volts. Could I use 120 volt space heaters as
loads for this? Maybe oil-filled ones or something. Or would 156 volts
be too much?
If I could load down a quadrant with 30amps, that would be the same as
motoring at 60amps. Some of the batteries would die early; I should be
able to find them. Then of course how do I recharge the quadrant, or am
I going to end up with a pack that is *seriously* out of balance.
Help!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Surely it is far simpler to just have the small motor drive the
accessories all the time and leave out the complexity of trying to get
the traction motor to share the load.
I mean, if the small motor is large enough to run the AC and PS on its
own, then why bother getting the traction motor involved at all?
Having a separate motor for AC/PS gives you the freedon to mount those
parts wherever you want to.
Mark
(who likes to keep things simple :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
and
From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
RB> So I'm going to couple the PS and AC to the traction motor,
RB> and here's where I need advice.
SC>this is what I'm doing also ,
RB> I still want to use the 2hp motor I
RB> have to run the PS and AC when the traction motor isn't turning (at
RB> stops, etc.) so I don't have to spin the traction motor and hold the
RB> clutch in.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking that it's simpler to use the traction motor , as its already
there , and you can mount the AC and PS right on the front , but if you use
a small motor to drive this stuff, you have to find a place for the little
motor , and couple the AC and PS to it , the lines (oil and freon ) are
already set up to be about where the front or tail shaft comes out , . and
you won't get the little bit of drag on the traction motor that makes
shifting easer and gives a little bit of regen feel , . I have been thinking
though , it would take a alternator that could put out 100 amp at 12 v to
give about the same regen feel as 10 amp and 120 v , my old zapi would regen
at 20 amps at 120v which felt about like what a car engine would .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 12:06 AM
Subject: RE: coupling AC/PS and alternator to traction motor: was DC Regen
> Hi all,
>
> Surely it is far simpler to just have the small motor drive the
> accessories all the time and leave out the complexity of trying to get
> the traction motor to share the load.
>
> I mean, if the small motor is large enough to run the AC and PS on its
> own, then why bother getting the traction motor involved at all?
>
> Having a separate motor for AC/PS gives you the freedon to mount those
> parts wherever you want to.
>
> Mark
> (who likes to keep things simple :-)
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: 1sclunn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> and
> From: "Ryan Bohm" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> RB> So I'm going to couple the PS and AC to the traction motor,
> RB> and here's where I need advice.
>
> SC>this is what I'm doing also ,
>
> RB> I still want to use the 2hp motor I
> RB> have to run the PS and AC when the traction motor isn't turning (at
> RB> stops, etc.) so I don't have to spin the traction motor and hold the
> RB> clutch in.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, 1st, 2nd or 3rd language, (which is NOT what I was commenting on) it is
Techno Gibberish. Obviously you are in the same boat as whoever wrote it, IE
you have never had a plasma cutter in your hand in your life, nor any idea
of how one works. Among other things a plasma cutter has NOTHING to do with
a laser, nor does it use a shielding gas. Anyone that had ever used a plasma
cutter even once would know this. Which leads me to question the veracity of
the post/writer. I was not picking on the "deaf kid" or his speech. I will
say (since you brought it up) that I have corresponded many times over the
years with profoundly deaf people and most of the time had no idea they were
deaf until they told me. Their speech and grammer was way better than mine.
When I mentioned this I was told that something that hard fought to learn
was not taken lightly, and who knows better the value of clear communication
than a deaf person? David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
> > Wow, a "high powered laser (plasma) cutter 350 amps to melt metal with
> > shielded gas to protected" double throw down thingamabob...
>
> > You will bust a gut with this one.
>
> Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
> communication challenges. He thinks in a combination of english and sign
> language, and this makes for some very interesting (and sometimes
> challenging) sentence structure in his posts. It generally doesn't take
> too much effort to sort out what he is trying to express conceptually.
>
> He is also very protective of his ideas as he has had direct competitors
> in his local area trying to get photography of his mods and then
> building very similar products for sale in his backyard. Craig is also
> VERY concerned that some kid will attempt one of his high speed/high
> power mods and get seriously hurt. He blurs some photos and withholds
> some data about his builds as a result.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Publisher - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> 24 hour AIM - ktrough
> 24 hour message center - 866-872-8901
>
--- End Message ---
