EV Digest 3456
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Modified Rudman Regs (long) - heat recovery
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: coupling AC/PS
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load
system
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load
system
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: More EV ebay stuff for sale
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Question on cold low battery
by "EV'r up LATE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: OT: Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by Sam Thurber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I previously posted some details that I'd picked up a fully working car on
eBay. I finally have the paperwork but it's still not titled. However,
I've been preparing for a while. In January I noticed the batteries all
needed to be watered. The first day it was above freezing I watered them,
and turned on the charger, and went to bed.
I took it out of the garage briefly a few weeks later, and noticed it
didn't want to climb the driveway to go back in. Odd. So I plugged it into
the charger, and noticed the ground fault on the K&W BC-20 was tripped.
Crap.
Since I had been planning to anyway, I ordered a PFC-20. Well, since it's
still a bit out, but I got the paperwork and need to charge the car if
it's to be able to pass the safety inspection and get a PA title, I
decided to see what the problem was today. Isolated the charger from the
DC system: didn't trip. Reattached it, cut the battery string. Tripped.
Ok. Well, at this point I wondered if perhaps I'd damaged the cabling
somehow. Seemed unlikely. I disconnected batteries 2-14 of the 16 battery
string, and it didn't trip. I disconnected batteries 6-13 (the ones in the
back) and it did trip. Soon I isolated the problem to batteries 3-5, and
then to battery 3. Bypassed it, and the system doesn't trip now. So I
guess I should figure out where I can get a T-105, or go to the Costco 40
miles away to get their equivalent so I can get back in business.
I bought rubber gloves and insulated tools for the occasion; Dealing with
the gloves was only a minor annoyance, I suspect I'll be able to deal with
this well.
Lesson #1 passed.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:23 PM 9/04/04 -0700, Joe Smalley wrote:
Comments inserted...<snip>
I'll put this here, at the start of this message, hopefully to get some
additional responses: With a 20A charge rate how much self-heating are the
batteries (Orbital Bluetops) likely to get?
If the batteries are going to heat to close to or above the temperature
control threshold, then there will be no point in trying to recover the
energy, and so I'd be wasting time, effort and money putting in a heat
recovery system that would be of no use. That is the main thing that I am
trying to determine at this time. The battery box will be insulated,
Winters are not much below freezing (going back above every day) and
heating will be on every night. Is it worth the effort?
> First 'mod': temperature compensation sensor. I
> am going to put the diodes off on lengths of screened cable that is rated
> for 500V, and mount them on the respective battery.
This mod was planned in the PCB design. It should work as you have planned.
Be sure to fuse the wires properly. The cathode of the diode is connected to
batt negative.
Will do.
> Second 'mod': bypass heat recovery (this one is a lot more complex).
> I would like to recover bypass heat as battery heating, plus use the
> temperature comparator to select recovery or waste resistors, and control
> 'mains' powered heating once the batteries are finished charging. Under
> each group of batteries there will be an aluminium plate to distribute the
> heat across the battery bases.
I follow you on the three resistors but I do not fully understand how you
are going to select which one is active. I understand the logic, but not how
you are going to do the switching from the reg heat to the mains heat.
U1D is the temperature comparator, with the sensor moved to the battery
heating plate and the range altered to reflect the 30 Celcius or so heating
setpoint. R16 and Q2 would be no longer needed (since there would no longer
be any heat generated on the PCB), so would be left off the PCB. Since U1
is 'active' all of the time, my daugter PCB has a second output for battery
heating that is controlled from a charger completed signal (input) and
heating required (output of U1D), to enable the output for 'mains' powered
heating of the battery plate (this will be so regardless of wether I
recover the 200 to 400 Watts of bypass energy).
The gates of the two transistors are tied together by a trace on the PCB.
You will need to that trace to separate them.
Simple: put Q1 on the component side of the PCB, 'face' up, which puts its
gate into the track that went to R11/R13. The second off-board resistor
goes in place of D2, connecting where it was, the remaining pin is not
inserted into the PCB, but gets a link of wire to what was the neg end of
R13. So the gate end of R9 is used to drive Q3, and the connection that was
R11/R13 join becomes the drive to Q1 (R11 gets put into the unused holes of
R34, C3 gets left off).
Correction...
The regulating signal comes off U1 pin 7. This point does not go down during
thermal cutout.
If you want the regulating signal to be disabled during an overtemp
situation, then you need to get it from (either end of) R9.
I don't need to disable it on overtemp, but to divert it. So I would take
the output of U1C (from one pad where R9 would be not installed) and AND it
with heat not overtemp to drive the FET for the resistor on the heating
plate (back in the other end pad of R9, resistor on the daughter PCB), or
when the plate goes overtemp inversion of the temp signal AND the
regulating signal to the other FET (R11/R13 pads) for waste heat.
You will need to change R20 to adjust the temperature setpoint. The cutout
temperature is about 85C (185F) as the circuit is designed.
Yes, that is understood. Also to prevent the setpoint moving too much with
the battery voltage, R20 could be placed so that instead of picking up
alongside R7 it picks up the reference off the end of R14. It'd be untidy
(and wouldn't be able to go through the hole) but would work.
You will need to remove D2 and use those pads to connnect to the first load.
You must short out R13 to get it to pass any significant current.
See above.
> The daughter PCBs will also have optically isolated repeating of the
> undervoltage and regulating LEDs, plus the status of the heating.
The regbus interface board does all this. The connections are on J17 to
drive these optocouplers.
But the undervoltage signal is from before the latch, and if someone has
been abusing my EV I want to know! Also the regulating signal is not
available (I want in part to control the charger from the regulating
signals). These are some of the reasons that I decided to make my own
interface.
> The only catch that I can see is that if the batteries are cold, then as
> soon as the bypassing starts, the bottom of the cells are at a different
> temperature to the top of the cells (Orbital Bluetops) and so will end up
> at a different SOC. So it may be better to inhibit heating during charging
> and use the temperature comparator as described but to only to switch the
> mains heating (this would save a lot of work that may be
counter-productive).
The hot part of the battery will charge first because it has the lower
gassing voltage. By the time the regs fire, the battery will be quite full.
The temperature compensation will not be fooled enough to matter.
I wasn't thinking of the temperature compensation, I was thinking that the
cells may become overcharged at the bottom, possibly damaging the cells and
shortening their life?
Thanks
James Massey
Launceston, Tasmania, Australia.
'78 Daihatsu truck under conversion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For a dummy load, I use resistance heating elements from a derelict heat
pump. I tapped the elements in the center and paralleled the halves. Then I
screwed them into the side of an old (large) metal mailbox that had lost its
door, and fastened to the back of the mail a fan scrounged from a discarded
range hood. I added a contactor and it was done.
At 144 volts, it draws around 100 amps (more if I add the last element
section in), and heats up the garage nicely in the winter.
dr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can you connect the load on the downstream side of your main contactor?
Assuming your heaters are rated 4500w at 240 volts, they should use about
23.5 DC amps @ 300 volts. That's pretty far up the current ladder for a 30
amp AC disconnect, IMO. The rule of thumb is an AC rating at least 3x the
DC current, IIRC (someone correct me if that's wrong). If I'm right, you want
something closer to 75 amps AC, and that's still a bit risky. If that switch
welds, you'll have to wait it out until the battery is dead - and hope it doesn't
reverse some cells and blow them up before it gets there.
dr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
what about uising 2 centripical clutches from gocart type fame.
first one is driven by main motor driving "stuff". If at stop then a
second motor in parallel would come on and it's clutch/belt arangement
would kick in.
http://www.jfs-tech.com/~jeff/evtech/clutch.gif
(forgive artistry, lost pen, done with trackball)
on PS why not use an hydraulic accumulator.
an Acummulator on AC would be interesting but difficult with new freon
types.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$60 for an EV200 might save your pack and maybe your life.
Try pulling apart an anderson with 300v and current flowing thru it and
you are in for a display normally found at the science museum. You will
be pulling apart the anderson because the AC rated switch didn't work
right.
Maybe the Square D will work. But if it doesn't, you will sure be
scambling to figure out what to do if it doesn't. And quick thinking
and 300V DC is a bad combination.
Also, what is the inrush on the water heater. Will that weld your
Square D disconnect?
Seth
On Apr 10, 2004, at 11:54 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Mmm.... It's odd though that they all read the same voltage, within 5
100ths of a volt of each other. Most within 1-2 100ths of each other
(digital VOM)
I think I will spend the next few days building the MOAD (mother of
all dischargers). Plan will be a large metal trash can, a pair of
2*4's over the top with small wood squares going down into the can.
Mounted on the squares will be the 4500 watt element. I'll run it at
full 300 volts, with the pack split into two 300 volts strings
(testing seperately).
10 gauge insulated wires will go from the pack (which will be split by
the main disconnect while I am hooking it up) to a 30amp Square D
disconnect switch with the obligatory 30 amp DC rated fuse. The output
of this will go to the water heater.
The plan is to have the water heater and trashcan 10 feet away filled
to the top of the element with cold water. I turn on the pack
disconnect, then close the circuit with the Square D disconnect. Let
the batteries run down and find the bad ones. Then break the
connection with the S-D disconnect, then break the pack, then
disconnect the wires.
Then do the same for the other string.
Sound good/right/safe? Technically the Square D box is rated for 240
volts at 30 amps, but unless I want to spend a large amount of money
for a big disconnect it will have to do.
Chris
Joe Smalley wrote:
I have used some Cadet heaters for this type of thing. You will need
to run
the nichrome from DC and the shaded pole blower motors from AC. The
wiring
on the back is easy to figure out.
A second option is electric water heater elements. They need no
blower but
they need water around them to prevent them from burning up. I don't
know
how long 120 volt models will last at 156 volts. You would need more
240
volt models to get the same battery current.
Your battery is already severely out of balance. All modules need to
be
fully charged before reassembly into a battery pack.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 1:38 PM
Subject: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load
system
Today I dropped the Prizm pack. Again. This time, before dropping the
pack I took it out on a road run. At 9ah down, the pack was pulling
300
volts at 60amps. At 10ah down, the voltage was in the 280's, and by
the
time I got home I could barely make 50amps at 250 volts. Dropped
like a
stone going up the hill; I could see the current go from 100 to 90
to 80
to 60 to 50, etc. Resting voltage though was a nice 312 volts.
Aarrggh..
So we dropped the pack. It's still a pain. First it was time to check
battery voltages. Surely some of the batteries must be dead.
Nope. All were 12.6, lowest was 12.5. So much for a reversed cell or
a
blown battery.
Then checked them under load. Using the hand-held battery tester all
of
them would start out at over 500 CCA, which is about the same as my
control battery (the tester puts about a 30amp load on the battery
and
dissapates it as heat).
In the first four strings I noticed something: Most batteries could
hold
500CCA for 20 seconds. However four of the first 28 would drift down
to
400 as the seconds wore on.
Second lesson: You need to discharge for a length of time; Hawkers
can
fool you even under load.
After testing 28 batteries in sets of seven, the battery tester died.
Basically the wires overheated. We did some quick repairs and quick
tested the remaining 22 batteries. All showed nice 500+, but we only
did
5 seconds or so each.
I'm wondering if the four batteries in the pack that drooped plus 3
more
in the back are the problem. But what I really need is a serious
battery
tester. One that can pull 60 amps from each side of the pack.
This could be difficult, but here is my thought:
Right now with the main pack switch off I have four quadrants, two
have
144 volts, two have 156 volts. Could I use 120 volt space heaters as
loads for this? Maybe oil-filled ones or something. Or would 156
volts
be too much?
If I could load down a quadrant with 30amps, that would be the same
as
motoring at 60amps. Some of the batteries would die early; I should
be
able to find them. Then of course how do I recharge the quadrant, or
am
I going to end up with a pack that is *seriously* out of balance.
Help!
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
*nod* Neat. I did some idle thinking of what it would take to test the
batteries under a full-bore EV load:
A 100amp tester would need to dissipate more power than I have availible
in my house.
A 200amp tester would require me to dissipate 60,000 watts. I think at
this point I would be looking at a Trace breaker as a load disconnect.
I would need at least 10 garbage cans full of water to carry the 10
5,000 watt heater elements.
That's getting a bit nuts. Still, seems to be the only way to do it.
Chris
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
For a dummy load, I use resistance heating elements from a derelict heat
pump. I tapped the elements in the center and paralleled the halves. Then I
screwed them into the side of an old (large) metal mailbox that had lost its
door, and fastened to the back of the mail a fan scrounged from a discarded
range hood. I added a contactor and it was done.
At 144 volts, it draws around 100 amps (more if I add the last element
section in), and heats up the garage nicely in the winter.
dr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not without taking a lot of stuff apart.
If the switch does weld, my options are somewhat limited. I could try
breaking the pack using the car's disconnect; I don't think I want to
try pulling the fuse under load.
I will be wiring both "poles" of the DC through the disconnect though,
so does that double it's current interrupt capacity?
I will think about going with a 60amp disconnect.
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
Can you connect the load on the downstream side of your main contactor?
Assuming your heaters are rated 4500w at 240 volts, they should use about
23.5 DC amps @ 300 volts. That's pretty far up the current ladder for a 30
amp AC disconnect, IMO. The rule of thumb is an AC rating at least 3x the
DC current, IIRC (someone correct me if that's wrong). If I'm right, you want
something closer to 75 amps AC, and that's still a bit risky. If that switch
welds, you'll have to wait it out until the battery is dead - and hope it doesn't
reverse some cells and blow them up before it gets there.
dr
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$60 for an EV200 might save your pack and maybe your life.
Yeah, and the more I think about this the more I realize that heck knows
what else I am missing that might "save my life". I do tend to like my
life, and unfortunately I am working on this project alone.
I remember a time when I shorted my solar panels at 36 volts and was
pulling a good inch long arc. And that was at 36 volts and a peak
amperage of maybe 10 amps. Ten times the volts and an AIR of 1,000amps
is a bit higher thought...
So I give up. Will go with plan B which is to put a pair of 150 watt
bulbs in sockets, attach to a 600 watt (VA but since it is light bulbs
the power factor will be 100%. Hah!) UPS and run the batteries down one
at a time then follow them with the Sears 15amp charger. Weakest
batteries are dumpstered.
This has the advantage of being a real 30 amp DC load, with the option
to go to 50 or so amps. Maybe I can take apart a second UPS and run two
batteries at a time. With a test time of around 2 hours per battery I am
looking at 50 hours of work time on this project.
But at the end all the batteries will be at the same level of charge.
Sort of since I am now convinced that resting battery voltage is no
indication of capacity.
And given that, what good are charge regulators? If my pack were truly
out of balance I would expect the battery voltages to be all over the
place, especially after running the pack at an "average" of 10vpb at "C"
a few hours earlier... But even with that the pack is happy as a little
clam three hours later (yes, I did disconnect the pack soon after so the
strings should not have self balanced in that time)
Chris
Try pulling apart an anderson with 300v and current flowing thru it and
you are in for a display normally found at the science museum. You will
be pulling apart the anderson because the AC rated switch didn't work
right.
Maybe the Square D will work. But if it doesn't, you will sure be
scambling to figure out what to do if it doesn't. And quick thinking and
300V DC is a bad combination.
Also, what is the inrush on the water heater. Will that weld your Square
D disconnect?
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:16 AM 4/11/2004, you wrote:
I would need at least 10 garbage cans full of water to carry the 10 5,000
watt heater elements.
Umm, no. You need 1 garbage can with 10 elements in it.
I use 1 55 gal drum with 3 (soon to be 4) elements to load test my
pack. It takes a LOT of power to bring 30 gallons of water to the boiling
point, and then you just add more water.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:53 AM 4/11/2004, you wrote:
So I give up. Will go with plan B which is to put a pair of 150 watt bulbs
in sockets, attach to a 600 watt (VA but since it is light bulbs the power
factor will be 100%. Hah!) UPS and run the batteries down one at a time
then follow them with the Sears 15amp charger.
Many UPS's aren't powered from 12V. They have a hi-voltage pack of small
batteries.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, the cheapest way to get them back in line is to do shallow
cycles, recharge with 15% overcharge and float in between (all the
time) and do this daily. Do this after you pull the stinkers.
As for testing:
With a single EV200, and some1000W halogen lamps you can probably do
this safely. If you are only getting 10Ah , then that's a 3 hour
discharge. And you could check voltages and log them easily at that
rate. You could discharge both packs and recharge in a long day.
Seth
On Apr 11, 2004, at 9:53 AM, Chris Zach wrote:
$60 for an EV200 might save your pack and maybe your life.
Yeah, and the more I think about this the more I realize that heck
knows what else I am missing that might "save my life". I do tend to
like my life, and unfortunately I am working on this project alone.
I remember a time when I shorted my solar panels at 36 volts and was
pulling a good inch long arc. And that was at 36 volts and a peak
amperage of maybe 10 amps. Ten times the volts and an AIR of 1,000amps
is a bit higher thought...
So I give up. Will go with plan B which is to put a pair of 150 watt
bulbs in sockets, attach to a 600 watt (VA but since it is light bulbs
the power factor will be 100%. Hah!) UPS and run the batteries down
one at a time then follow them with the Sears 15amp charger. Weakest
batteries are dumpstered.
This has the advantage of being a real 30 amp DC load, with the option
to go to 50 or so amps. Maybe I can take apart a second UPS and run
two batteries at a time. With a test time of around 2 hours per
battery I am looking at 50 hours of work time on this project.
But at the end all the batteries will be at the same level of charge.
Sort of since I am now convinced that resting battery voltage is no
indication of capacity.
And given that, what good are charge regulators? If my pack were truly
out of balance I would expect the battery voltages to be all over the
place, especially after running the pack at an "average" of 10vpb at
"C" a few hours earlier... But even with that the pack is happy as a
little clam three hours later (yes, I did disconnect the pack soon
after so the strings should not have self balanced in that time)
Chris
Try pulling apart an anderson with 300v and current flowing thru it
and you are in for a display normally found at the science museum.
You will be pulling apart the anderson because the AC rated switch
didn't work right.
Maybe the Square D will work. But if it doesn't, you will sure be
scambling to figure out what to do if it doesn't. And quick thinking
and 300V DC is a bad combination.
Also, what is the inrush on the water heater. Will that weld your
Square D disconnect?
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Rod - I put in a bid on the first one. This should be about the
right size to replace the broken motor on my Aurenthetic bike.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, April 10, 2004 8:04 PM
Subject: More EV ebay stuff for sale
> The EV habit takes it's toll with the wife, I'm
> selling more stuff to pay for my new Alltrax control
> for my GE Elec Trak,
> Rod
> These are 74Vdc BLDC motors with integrated controls.
>
> Item number: 3809178317
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3809178317&category=42920&sspagename=STRK%3AMESSE%3AIT&rd=1
>
> Item number: 3809178377
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3809178377&category=42920&sspagename=STRK%3AMESSE%3AIT&rd=1
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ADC's
> design makes this pretty
> easy, bearings can usually be found at a NAPA or
> other auto parts store.
thanks Roy.
does anyone happen to know the part number for the
front and rear bearings of the ADC 9 inch (with a tail
shaft) ?
Do you think if I bring the NACHI P/N from on the
bearing to NAPA they would be able to source the part
?
what, if anything, should I use to clean the motor
before re installing ? Can I use electric motor
cleaner spray to rinse down the windings and comm etc
?
Anything else I should inspect ? When looking at the
brushes, what am I looking for ? just abnormal wear
patterns ?
Finally, you say to let it run at low voltage for a
couple hours. how low ? 6V, 12 V ? 30 V ? or does it
not really matter.
thanks.
~Fortunat
> Let it run for a few hours at low voltage to insure
> good brush seating and
> inspect before installing.
>
> Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> >So in preparation for installing my 9 inch motor, I
> >spun it up with 6 V in the bench.
> >
> >It spins slowly, but there is a scraping sound. I
> >guess this isn't totally surprising since the motor
> >has been sitting on my garage floor for about 1.5
> >years and was sitting for half a year un used
> before
> >that, but i don't know how much of it is ok or will
> go
> >away with use.
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Tax Center - File online by April 15th
http://taxes.yahoo.com/filing.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bearings are generally standard with the last two digits being the ID
in mm/5. So a 6205 bearing has a 25mm ID, for example. (It probable has
a C3 designation after that for extra radial clearance when the motor
gets hot) The digits ahead telly you other things abotu the bearing.
Fractional inch bearings are pretty rare these days (ask Father time).
McMaster, Applied materials, MSC and even big hardware stores will
carry metric bearings. Not sure about Napa. www.skf.com has a lot of
information if you have a DSL connection or better.
I am not a big fan of NACHI. SFK, Timken, NTN, FAG are all brands I
have had good luck with.
Seth
On Apr 11, 2004, at 10:52 AM, Fortunat Mueller wrote:
--- Roy LeMeur <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
ADC's
design makes this pretty
easy, bearings can usually be found at a NAPA or
other auto parts store.
thanks Roy.
does anyone happen to know the part number for the
front and rear bearings of the ADC 9 inch (with a tail
shaft) ?
Do you think if I bring the NACHI P/N from on the
bearing to NAPA they would be able to source the part
?
what, if anything, should I use to clean the motor
before re installing ? Can I use electric motor
cleaner spray to rinse down the windings and comm etc
?
Anything else I should inspect ? When looking at the
brushes, what am I looking for ? just abnormal wear
patterns ?
Finally, you say to let it run at low voltage for a
couple hours. how low ? 6V, 12 V ? 30 V ? or does it
not really matter.
thanks.
~Fortunat
Let it run for a few hours at low voltage to insure
good brush seating and
inspect before installing.
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
So in preparation for installing my 9 inch motor, I
spun it up with 6 V in the bench.
It spins slowly, but there is a scraping sound. I
guess this isn't totally surprising since the motor
has been sitting on my garage floor for about 1.5
years and was sitting for half a year un used
before
that, but i don't know how much of it is ok or will
go
away with use.
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--- Begin Message ---
Sure, but the APC Back-UPS 600 (well the older ones) ran off a single
12V 7ah battery. One can attach cables to them and run off an external
battery no problem.
Chris
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 06:53 AM 4/11/2004, you wrote:
So I give up. Will go with plan B which is to put a pair of 150 watt
bulbs in sockets, attach to a 600 watt (VA but since it is light bulbs
the power factor will be 100%. Hah!) UPS and run the batteries down
one at a time then follow them with the Sears 15amp charger.
Many UPS's aren't powered from 12V. They have a hi-voltage pack of
small batteries.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> I noticed the batteries all needed to be watered. The first day it
> was above freezing I watered them, and turned on the charger, and
> went to bed.
I suspect you will find that electrolyte fizzed out of the batteries,
causing the ground fault that tripped the GFCI.
Moral of first lesson: Do not water batteries before charging. The water
level rises during charging, and you are likely to overfill it, which
will make electrolyte come out the vents as it nears full charge. The
spilled electrolyte makes a mess, causes corrosion, trips GFCI, etc.
If a battery is low on water before charging, add only enough to cover
the plates. Charge it, and *then* add however much water is needed.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Lee Hart wrote:
> Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> > I noticed the batteries all needed to be watered. The first day it
> > was above freezing I watered them, and turned on the charger, and
> > went to bed.
>
> I suspect you will find that electrolyte fizzed out of the batteries,
> causing the ground fault that tripped the GFCI.
That may be, but...
> Moral of first lesson: Do not water batteries before charging. The water
> level rises during charging, and you are likely to overfill it, which
> will make electrolyte come out the vents as it nears full charge. The
> spilled electrolyte makes a mess, causes corrosion, trips GFCI, etc.
The battery is in plain sight, it's the most accessible battery in the
car. There's no obvious discharge on top of the battery.
> If a battery is low on water before charging, add only enough to cover
> the plates. Charge it, and *then* add however much water is needed.
You'd be scared if I told you how much water that was. I probably did
overfill some of them.
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Hi,
I'm guessing the standard for a warm battery fully discharged is when it
hits 10.5V
Is this point lower when the battery is cold, like 9.5V?
I'm thinking along the lines for sensing battery temperature (more like
case temperature)
Or is just 10.5V hot or cold sufficient?
Thanks!
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--- Begin Message ---
Do not use electric motor cleaner or any product like it on your comm.Mica
the insulating material has small fissures that could fill with carbon
dust.Either blo out the armature and fields with dry air or pressure /steam clean the
parts after you remove the pole shoes fields bearings brush rack ect.Mark the
parts on disasmbley. D Berube
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--- Begin Message ---
Derrick your PFC20B should be heading your way this week. I am doing a mad
Easter Sunday dash to Portland to pick up 6 chassis, yours is one of them.
Hang in there!
Also you really need to get the isolation issues solved, so your don't hurt
the spiffy new charger. You really need to run the charger from a GFI
protected outlet.
Just so you don't hurt it. I will give you more tips later when you get to the
install point.
Derrick J Brashear wrote:
> I previously posted some details that I'd picked up a fully working car on
> eBay. I finally have the paperwork but it's still not titled. However,
> I've been preparing for a while. In January I noticed the batteries all
> needed to be watered. The first day it was above freezing I watered them,
> and turned on the charger, and went to bed.
>
> I took it out of the garage briefly a few weeks later, and noticed it
> didn't want to climb the driveway to go back in. Odd. So I plugged it into
> the charger, and noticed the ground fault on the K&W BC-20 was tripped.
> Crap.
>
> Since I had been planning to anyway, I ordered a PFC-20. Well, since it's
> still a bit out, but I got the paperwork and need to charge the car if
> it's to be able to pass the safety inspection and get a PA title, I
> decided to see what the problem was today. Isolated the charger from the
> DC system: didn't trip. Reattached it, cut the battery string. Tripped.
>
> Ok. Well, at this point I wondered if perhaps I'd damaged the cabling
> somehow. Seemed unlikely. I disconnected batteries 2-14 of the 16 battery
> string, and it didn't trip. I disconnected batteries 6-13 (the ones in the
> back) and it did trip. Soon I isolated the problem to batteries 3-5, and
> then to battery 3. Bypassed it, and the system doesn't trip now. So I
> guess I should figure out where I can get a T-105, or go to the Costco 40
> miles away to get their equivalent so I can get back in business.
>
> I bought rubber gloves and insulated tools for the occasion; Dealing with
> the gloves was only a minor annoyance, I suspect I'll be able to deal with
> this well.
>
> Lesson #1 passed.
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--- Begin Message ---
David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
> Assuming your heaters are rated 4500w at 240 volts, they should use
> about 23.5 DC amps @ 300 volts. That's pretty far up the current
> ladder for a 30 amp AC disconnect, IMO. The rule of thumb is an AC
> rating at least 3x the DC current, IIRC (someone correct me if
> that's wrong).
The current rating of a contact is the same for AC or DC; it's the
VOLTAGE rating that must be de-rated. Unless a contact is specifically
rated (and thus designed) for DC, I would derate it 4:1 on DC. That
means a 120vac contact is only good for 30vdc; a 240vac contact only
60vdc, etc.
Thus, I agree with the David's idea; use the car's main contactor (which
*is* DC rated) to switch the load bank. Or, test the batteries in small
enough groups to stay within the voltage guidelines I mentioned for
whatever you do use to switch them.
PS: Nichrome resistors (like water heater elements) have no inrush
current; they draw basically the same current hot or cold.
Lightbulb have a *tremendous* inrush current! Cold resistance is around
1/10th of their hot resistance, so the peak current your switch sees
when it closes is 10 times higher than the stead-state current!
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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This Deaf Scooter guy was at the Las Vegas Nedra event when Gone Postal was
there. He's pretty sharp, and has his hands very dirty into motor and speed.
Cool stuff, but it's at odds with the full sized serious racers. Scooters going
down the same strip as Funny cars, kinda irritates the Gas guys.
But fast scooters, I don't want to try to beat him, he's a tough compeditor.
Yea he's been deaf from the begining, But he's as crazy about Evs as the rest
of us.
Yes I found the communication to be difficult. But if you had a TTY or a
personal computing device, he does very well.
Adjust your own "personal comm ports" as needed.
Dave Davidson wrote:
> It's very likely that English is his second language. I worked with quite a
> few folks who had been born deaf. Their first language is American Sign
> Language (ASL) and they think in ASL. They can be quite intelligent and
> educated, and still not be able to write in English much better than many
> foreignors. Imagine not learning English until you're 7 or 8 (or maybe a
> bit older), and then you learn to read and write it without ever hearing it
> spoken. Most foreignors think in their native tongue and then try to
> translate their thoughts to English, with varying degrees of success. It's
> exactly the same with deaf folks who have been brought up "speaking" ASL and
> think in ASL, and then have to translate their thoughts to English which
> they learned later. ASL is a language unto itself and not a visual
> representation of English.
>
> Dave Davidson
> Glen Burnie, MD
> 1993 Dodge TEVan
>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Re: Deafscooter exploits & motor building
> >Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2004 13:58:11 -0700
> >
> ><<Craig Uyeda (deafscooter) is deaf since birth, which presents unique
> >communication challenges.>>
> >
> >I doubt there is one graduate of Gallaudet University that writes in such
> >broken
> >English, and the majority of them were born deaf - his writing is more like
> >someone with English as a second language. Hope his mental processes are
> >less
> >egocentric than his posts lead most to believe.
> >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page � FREE
> download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
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On Sun, 11 Apr 2004, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Derrick your PFC20B should be heading your way this week. I am doing a mad
> Easter Sunday dash to Portland to pick up 6 chassis, yours is one of them.
> Hang in there!
Woohoo.
> Also you really need to get the isolation issues solved, so your don't hurt
> the spiffy new charger. You really need to run the charger from a GFI
> protected outlet.
I'm going to be installing a GFI outlet tomorrow to solve that; I
actually have some laying around because we never got around to finishing
our kitchen. The ultimate plan is to provide an outlet 2 feet away from
where the car be parked, but I need to drill a hole through the wall of
the house in order to get cabling into the garage properly (e.g. not
through the door)
Of course since my mower is electric rather than gas (RoboMower
RL-500, the best of both worlds: electric, and runs itself) I don't keep
containers of fuel around anymore, and leaving the garage door open is safe.
At this point the problem is solved, the only question is whether the bad
battery is actually bad or needs to be replaced. I want to pull it
tomorrow if I have enough time and see if it's damaged.
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This may have already been suggested, but why not just
get your hands on a 1.2 kw "grid tied PV array style"
inverter, and discharge the batteries into the grid
... 50 amps through a dryer outlet may not be as
quick, but at least you'll save on your power bill ...
and no barrels of boiling water. Sounds like you may
already have some of the PV stuff.
--- Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> *nod* Neat. I did some idle thinking of what it
> would take to test the
> batteries under a full-bore EV load:
>
> A 100amp tester would need to dissipate more power
> than I have availible
> in my house.
>
> A 200amp tester would require me to dissipate 60,000
> watts. I think at
> this point I would be looking at a Trace breaker as
> a load disconnect.
>
> I would need at least 10 garbage cans full of water
> to carry the 10
> 5,000 watt heater elements.
>
> That's getting a bit nuts. Still, seems to be the
> only way to do it.
>
> Chris
>
>
>
>
> David Roden (Akron OH USA) wrote:
>
> > For a dummy load, I use resistance heating
> elements from a derelict heat
> > pump. I tapped the elements in the center and
> paralleled the halves. Then I
> > screwed them into the side of an old (large)
> metal mailbox that had lost its
> > door, and fastened to the back of the mail a fan
> scrounged from a discarded
> > range hood. I added a contactor and it was done.
> >
> > At 144 volts, it draws around 100 amps (more if I
> add the last element
> > section in), and heats up the garage nicely in the
> winter.
> >
> > dr
> >
> >
> >
>
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