EV Digest 3461
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: E-Woody Pictures/Question for Jerry
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
by "Tom Peterson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Draining the Prizm's pack
by "1sclunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Modified Rudman Regs - heat recovery
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) electrical noise
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Beefing up contactors
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by Sam Harper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) anti-EV propaganda from BMW
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: anti-EV propaganda from BMW
by "Mason Convey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: anti-EV propaganda from BMW
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Battery recycling (was: RE: Prizm battery drop...)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
22) RE: working on an electric car: lesson 1
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Prizm battery drop. Interesting, need thoughts on a load system
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) FW: H Drive 2004
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) OT: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, diesel hybrid
by Bruce EVangel Parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rick and All,
--- Rick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...and the crowd goes WILD!!!!!!! Hey, thanks to
> All who have made this
> rare glimpse possible. Outstandingly simple design.
Simple is it. I tried to distill an EV into the
simplest I could in keeping with costs, utility and
safety. KIS
It's being simple that lets it be both light and
strong. Even I was surprised how well it survived the
accident.
My new one will be twice as strong for crash
protection. The forces while driving are minor
compared to those for crash protection.
> Thanks to Jerry and
> David for all their efforts!!
>
> While it may not look like a "finished custom
> runnie",
Actually it was built as a design prototype
rebuild to see if it would work but it was not good
from miscalculation in the front fenders. Not enough
room in them for the wheels and it rode too close to
the ground. It sat for 5 yrs unfinished until I
decided that I was not going to use oil as much as
possible so put it on the road again.
While it is useable I need an excellent looking EV
instead of this one for business, EV outreach.
it shows something
> vitally important to the DIY's. It doesn't have to
> be an advanced material
> composite design, nor NASA surplus to work. It
Actually I use advanced epoxies developed from the
space program but they are relatively cheap, $30/gal.
If you are going to be designing new things it
helps if you use materials you know well.
I design and build lightweight and ultra
lightweight sail and power boats, over 200 designed
and built, I quickly found out that wood/epoxy had the
best strength/weight/cost ratio's of ANY materials.
And I work with them all.
And don't forget that most cars/trucks until the
1938 were mostly wood with metal tacked on. MG's and
Jags until 1954!!!
Cost for wood and epoxy for my new unit is under
$400. I'll cannibalize this one for other parts to
finish the new one.
> almost reminds me of my first
> small cargo trailer I built atop an old boat trailer
> over 10 years ago.
>
> Jerry, does the shock on the rear swing arm fasten
> through the wood with
> something like carriage bolts and washers and nuts?
The shock mounts were made from glass ropes made
of choppergun glass strands bundled together formed by
the SS fenderwashers, shock polt glued and with 2-
1/4-20 mashine bolts, washers, no nuts, epoxied into
the wood below. Upper mount the same. I could have
drilled holes and fed the glass rope into the wood
insead of the bolts.
The whole rear trailing arm is wood with the
glass you see just keeping the ply edges together and
waterproofing it. Glass ropes are wrapped around the
axle and the forward pivot bushings for point loading
to spread it.
> Iassume that the
> batteries are either under the seat, or perhaps
> spread about, under hood,
The batts are under the hood low making this
possibly the most stable car I've ever driven. The
crosswind problem I was expecting from it's height has
been non-existent.
And with the batts inside the wheels, polar
moment is as low as you can get with a CG of about
11", a foot lower tham most cars. This EV handles
well!!
> cargo area, and seat?? I would enjoy getting close
> to this vehicle with a
> creeper and a camera for about an hour. ;-))
It's already been done while building it, trying
to get a permanent website for the pics.
Sam,
I'm not planning a kit as parts are available
almost anywhere.
But full size plans if I do them would be
$100
Everything but the electrics, drive,batts
system, about $6,000,
Econo drive, 2 E-teks, regen about $10,000.
Hi power, 80-100mph, very long range, AC, APU,
ect optional.
Delivery, FOB, in 10 weeks from deposit.
>
> Thanks again guys!! Great work and an outstanding
> feat of engineering
> Jerry!!
The engineering part was easy for me, the
egronomic part is what's hard.
Thanks,
jerry dycus
>
> Regards,
>
> Rick
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And could this be used on Jerry's car? Tommy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 8:21 PM
Subject: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
> I have an (unused) Kawasaki EX500 motorcycle that I would like
> to convert, using an Etek at 48volts like electricmotorsport.com.
>
> I've checked out the shop manual and the transmission and clutch
> are part of the lower end of the motor, so the engine oil is used
> to lubricate the "primary chain" and transmission gears. The lower
> end and transmission are fairly "open" within the engine.
>
> My question is, if the bottom end were hacked up and an Etek
> mounted where the crankshaft and counterbalance shaft once
> lived, would the transmission need to be (re)sealed and lubricated?
> Or could it be run dry, or perhaps with a heavier gear grease?
>
> The hacking and mounting of the Etek wouldn't exactly be easy,
> but it would simplify the transfer of power to the rear wheel.
> It would also give me 6 gears for high starting torque and
> higher top speed than the typical single gear/direct drive setup.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking about your problem and wondering if you couldn't dump the
juise form one pack into the other, you have 2 packs , a golf cart charger
pluged into a variable transformer and pump the amps form one pack to the
other , just trun up the transformer to the amp charge/discharge you want.
or take a few out of the side your charging ( not as good as you have to
deal with these batteries sepertley) , then while your charging discharging
you can look at the batteries with a meter. find the week ones , and maybe
sell them to me , :-) . I could see where you might want to do a few
cycles just to even thing out , so you need an easy way to charge /
discharge.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Gaarder" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Sunday, April 11, 2004 8:05 PM
Subject: Draining the Prizm's pack
> Chris, I seem to recall that the disconnect breaker at the back of the
> pack will still be in the circuit when you do a load test, since it breaks
> the two strings of the pack in the middle. Is it rated to disconnect under
> load? Alternatively, could you use the car's contactors - which I think
> you said were built into the pack - to switch the load? That would
> presumably require getting a connector to match the one on the main power
> cable, which might be a pain. It does seem to me that having two ways to
> disconnect - neither of them too near the load - would be a good idea for
> safety.
>
> Another load that wouldn't require water would be two pairs of three space
> heaters in series across te whole pack. Pick ones without fans so you
> don't have to hassle with AC power to the motors.
>
> thanks,
>
> Steve Gaarder
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gear box must run in oil or with oil mist system (which would be messy).
Grease would not lubricate well in this application and cause significant
energy loss. Sealing up the gear box might not be that hard to do. I agree
that the gear box would be a very useful thing to keep. Mark T.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:21 PM
Subject: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
> I have an (unused) Kawasaki EX500 motorcycle that I would like
> to convert, using an Etek at 48volts like electricmotorsport.com.
>
> I've checked out the shop manual and the transmission and clutch
> are part of the lower end of the motor, so the engine oil is used
> to lubricate the "primary chain" and transmission gears. The lower
> end and transmission are fairly "open" within the engine.
>
> My question is, if the bottom end were hacked up and an Etek
> mounted where the crankshaft and counterbalance shaft once
> lived, would the transmission need to be (re)sealed and lubricated?
> Or could it be run dry, or perhaps with a heavier gear grease?
>
> The hacking and mounting of the Etek wouldn't exactly be easy,
> but it would simplify the transfer of power to the rear wheel.
> It would also give me 6 gears for high starting torque and
> higher top speed than the typical single gear/direct drive setup.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 1:40 PM
Subject: Re: ADC dismantling and advice ?
> On Mon, 2004-04-12 at 12:01, Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> > Seth,
> >
> > thanks for the advice.
> > The rear bearing in the ADC 9" has the p/n 6305NSE.
> > any idea what the NSE means ? NAPA says the closest
> > they have is 6305RSJ. would that do the trick ?
> >
> > Is there someplace I can find a P/N decoder for NACHI
> > bearings ?
>
> Rather than Napa you might want to check your local yellow pages for an
> industrial bearing supplier. Most of these places will be buried in
> some warehouse area, but are usually open to the public.
>
> Here in Austin we have Purvis Bearing, they have a encyclopedic
> knowledge of bearings and have offered solutions to my oddest problems.
> Best of all they are usually significantly cheaper than any other
> supplier.
>
> Mark
Hi Fortunat;
Best advise yet on the bearings. In New Haven, I go to Rae Bearing, they
may have a branch in Hartford?
Seeya in CT
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> So in preparation for installing my 9 inch motor, I
> spun it up with 6 V in the bench.
> It spins slowly, but there is a scraping sound.
Rich Rudman covered the basics pretty well. But, it occurred there is
one more thing that should be said.
It is *normal* for a brush-type motor to make a sort of "hiss" or a soft
"shreee" sound when spinning. The brushes sliding on the commutator make
this sound. You might get an edge to the sound, like a "brrrrr" if the
brushes are not well seated. or a "budda-budda" sound if there is a
raised commutator bar.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments inserted....
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Massey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 5:05 AM
Subject: Re: Modified Rudman Regs - heat recovery
> ><snip>
> >R3, R23, R13 and R11 are not needed for off board loads. Just connect U1C
to
> >Ref 0.7.
>
> I assume R23 is a 'typo', since it's in the undervoltage detector.
Yes, a typo, I meant R34.
> I've got
> as far as leaving R3 in, and putting R11 into the holes for R34 for the
> voltage divider. Probably neater than the link to the ref, anyway. R11 and
> C3 left off, but as previously described one of R11 holes becomes gate
> drive connection for the reconfigured Q1. I assume (since I have not seen
a
> 'factory' reg) that Q1 is normally on the underside of the PCB?
Q1 is mounted with the heat tab UP to connect to the underside of the heat
sink.
> >The red LED on the board is the tattletail inside the battery box. The
user
> >will only see the momentary undervoltage on the regbus. I expected this
> >signal to be used to sound a buzzer to remind the user to lift off the
> >throttle to avoid damage to the batteries. I thought it would need too
many
> >wires to take all the red LED signals out the regbus to have individual
> >indicators in the driver compartment.
>
> One of the reasons for doing this vehicle is for my guys to use at work
for
> local errands. I remember being 21, and two of the guys are in that age
> group. So I like the idea of the tattletail on the dash.
Right. Been there done that. I was not aware of your user profile. It sounds
like you made the right decision based on the user profile.
> I'm building a digital scanner looking at optocoupled outputs of LM3914
> bargraph voltmeters (one per battery), which is 10 bits, so an extra bit
or
> two is no big deal. Not the cheapest A/D by a long shot, but simple and no
> relays. The problem with the LM3914 is when the voltage goes below the
> lowest bit, there are no outputs on. So the undervolt detection takes care
> of that, too.
You could use a PWM on each battery and use a single optocoupler out of each
one. The PWM could be converted to an analog voltage to display on the bar
graphs. It saves on optocouplers but adds a chip to the demultiplexing
scheme.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
this is kinda out of left field, but
someone in my immediate neighborhood has some kind of electrical device
that only gets switched on once in a while... I don't know what it is, but
there is a goddawful transformer-like squee noise that - at 4am - is very
disturbing...
my greatest fear is that if we start seeing more EVs around, this kind of
terrible high-pitched straight-into-the-cranium noise is going to reflect
badly on the technology
my question is: what causes this kind of noise and what kinds of things can
be done to limit or at least suppress it? I'm guessing that good circuit
design is a primary factor... and plain old accoustical dampending is good
too... does sheilding (eg: wrapping offending components in a Faraday
cage, etc) help?
in any case, it's something to keep in mind, since even I - who's a major
EV fan - would quickly become unhappy if someone's whining charger kept me
awake all night
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Mark and Lee,
Appreciate all the backround tech and suggestions. One last question on this
tho, what do you think is the best mechanical solid state insulator if
brittleness is not an issue? Glass? That was my best guess. Regards, David
Chapman.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Doesn't sound too hard. Depending on the geometry, you would need to make
an enclosure that would cover from the Etek's shaft to the transmission's
beginning (where the engine mounted). Incorporate an oil seal on the Etek's
shaft, and you would be good. The enclosure could be as simple as some
sheet metal work, but you could also use it to hold the motor, if the Etek
can be face mounted and the enclosure was strong/stiff enough (like a
machining or casting). An interesting little project!
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lightning Ryan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 9:22 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Electric Motorcycle Transmission?
>
> I have an (unused) Kawasaki EX500 motorcycle that I would like
> to convert, using an Etek at 48volts like electricmotorsport.com.
>
> I've checked out the shop manual and the transmission and clutch
> are part of the lower end of the motor, so the engine oil is used
> to lubricate the "primary chain" and transmission gears. The lower
> end and transmission are fairly "open" within the engine.
>
> My question is, if the bottom end were hacked up and an Etek
> mounted where the crankshaft and counterbalance shaft once
> lived, would the transmission need to be (re)sealed and lubricated?
> Or could it be run dry, or perhaps with a heavier gear grease?
>
> The hacking and mounting of the Etek wouldn't exactly be easy,
> but it would simplify the transfer of power to the rear wheel.
> It would also give me 6 gears for high starting torque and
> higher top speed than the typical single gear/direct drive setup.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done a
deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy. We
designed one at GE-EV for the PNGV program at 80mpg, using a kubota tractor
engine for use in small cars. Does anyone know if there are diesel-hybrid
designs in the works and why not? Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars
> Don Buckshot wrote:
> > about the Prius he was showing there .... He told this lady the exhaust
> > gas from the Prius was cleaner than the air going into the engine. How
> > in the H.... can he say that? Where is the common sense? More
> > mis-information...
>
> Well, it IS cleaner .oO(not counting the CO2, which isn't a pollutant)
> Sheesh, just can't win when they makup rules like Partial-ZEV?
> Then they start count HEV and PZEV as "electric", how twisted is that.
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
thanks so much.
but impatience got the best of me. At someone else's
suggestion, I went to a local bearing distributor and
picked up a replacement for $15.
i got it installed last night and the motor sounds
much better. I let it run for about 1/2 hour at 12V
and then started to put the adapter together.
thanks for all the responses.
As for a history of my name...I am afraid I don't have
any interesting stories to tell. I am Swiss, but that
doesn't really explain it since Fortunat is about as
common in Switzerland as it is here. Actually, I think
the name comes from the eastern part of switzerland in
a valley called the Engadine where people speak a
language called Romansch (which is closely related to
old latin). Anyway, I am named after my dad but I
don't really know where he got his name from.
thanks again for all the help. I would hold onto those
bearings as I am sure there are others with ADC 9"
motors that will need them eventually.
~Fortunat (no final e)
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Fortunate,
> Send me your address offline,
> I have some bearings I scavenged from work.
> Yours for free, bran new!!
> Rod
> P.S. Fortunate, I've been wanting to use that
> line for awhile. Interesting name, maybe you
> could provide some history.
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Fortunat Mueller wrote:
> > >
> > > Hello,
> > >
> > > So in preparation for installing my 9 inch
> motor,
> > I
> > > spun it up with 6 V in the bench.
> > >
> > > It spins slowly, but there is a scraping sound.
> I
> > > guess this isn't totally surprising since the
> > motor
> > > has been sitting on my garage floor for about
> 1.5
> > > years and was sitting for half a year un used
> > before
> > > that, but i don't know how much of it is ok or
> > will go
> > > away with use.
> > >
> > > Partly to investigate the scraping and partly to
> > learn
> > > about the motor, I took the brush end off the
> > motor to
> > > do an inspection. As far as I can tell (to my
> > > untrained eye) the brushes themselves look
> pretty
> > > good. They are evenly worn and there isn't much
> > > oxidation on the comm. surface.
> > >
> > > the scraping sounds like it is coming from the
> > > interference between the rotor and stator
> > insulation
> > > (forgive me if i missuse terms cause my motor
> > > knowledge is limited). Is this normal ? Is there
> > > supposed to be any contact there ?
> > >
> > > also, the rear bearing feels pretty stiff. This
> > motor
> > > was in daily (light) use for about 3 years in my
> > jetta
> > > and now has been sitting for about a year. do
> you
> > guys
> > > think the bearing may need to be replaced ?
> There
> > is
> > > some light scoring on the inner shaft which
> makes
> > me
> > > think that at some point the shaft was spinning
> in
> > the
> > > inner bearing race.
> > >
> > > can anyone give me an idea of what a normal
> > service
> > > life for some of these parts is ?
> > >
> > > Anything else I should look at before dropping
> > this
> > > motor in the car so I can avoid pulling it back
> > out in
> > > the next few months/years ?
> > > Is there any value in just running the motor at
> > low
> > > speed for an hour to 'break in' the various
> parts
> > > again ?
> > >
> > > I have some photos, but i can't get them
> uploaded
> > > right now since I can't find my camera cable.
> > >
> > > thanks for the advice.
> > >
> > > ~Fortunat
> > >
> > > __________________________________
> > > Do you Yahoo!?
> > > Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
> > > http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
> >
> > Fortunat;
> > Spin it with a healthy 12 volt battery or a
> battery
> > with a 50 amp
> > charger connected also. Free spin should be in the
> > 2500 rpm range with
> > 12 volts and in the 30 to 50 amp range. Well
> broken
> > in with Nuetral
> > brushes is 30 amps, Stiff bearings(like damgaged)
> > and Advanced brushes
> > is 50 amps. If these are NOT close to what you
> > measure, you have other
> > problems. The air gaps should be 20 to 35
> > thousandths of a inch.
> > There should be no real shaking or arcing. All the
> > brushes should move
> > freely, and they all should have the entire face
> of
> > the brush worn into
> > contact with the commutator.
> >
> > Basic motor stuff.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> > www.manzanitamicro.com
> > 1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
> >
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
http://promotions.yahoo.com/design_giveaway/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was thinking the same thing! Why not take, say, technology from the
Volkswagen TDI which already gets amazing gas mileage (50ish) and
incorporate a hybrid drivetrain? I could see a net-MPG of near 80 with
such a combination.
Sincerely,
Sam Harper
Mark Hanson wrote:
I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done a
deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy. We
designed one at GE-EV for the PNGV program at 80mpg, using a kubota tractor
engine for use in small cars. Does anyone know if there are diesel-hybrid
designs in the works and why not? Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars
Don Buckshot wrote:
about the Prius he was showing there .... He told this lady the exhaust
gas from the Prius was cleaner than the air going into the engine. How
in the H.... can he say that? Where is the common sense? More
mis-information...
Well, it IS cleaner .oO(not counting the CO2, which isn't a pollutant)
Sheesh, just can't win when they makup rules like Partial-ZEV?
Then they start count HEV and PZEV as "electric", how twisted is that.
L8r
Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lightning Ryan wrote:
> I have an (unused) Kawasaki EX500 motorcycle that I would
> like to convert, using an Etek at 48volts like electricmotorsport.com.
When looking for a candidate for a widely-accepted EM (electric
Motorcycle), the EX500 came up as a prime choice. But I personally
wouldn't use an Etek for this. You will end up with a motorcycle that
looks like a racebike and performs like a 100 cc foo-foo bike. You can
probably get it to reach highway speeds, but just barely. Most
importantly, it will have no grunt at those speeds.
The huge performance gap between most motorcycles and the surrounding
automobiles is a major factor in minimizing the effects of your
vulnerability in traffic. I wouldn't want to give that up. I've done
some things on motorcycles that many would think were suicidal, but I
would honestly be afraid to ride a motorcycle like you describe on the
highway.
> I've checked out the shop manual and the transmission and
> clutch are part of the lower end of the motor, so the engine
> oil is used to lubricate the "primary chain" and transmission
> gears. The lower end and transmission are fairly "open"
> within the engine.
>
> My question is, if the bottom end were hacked up and an Etek
> mounted where the crankshaft and counterbalance shaft once
> lived, would the transmission need to be (re)sealed and
> lubricated? Or could it be run dry, or perhaps with a heavier
> gear grease?
This will be a *major* pain. The oil is indeed shared, and probably
pressurized to the gearbox. Where's the oil pump? What drives it? You
can carve away engine castings and make the remainder look surprisingly
good (see Reverend Gadget's EMW). Your problem will be machining
adapters to mate with the existing crank gear and properly piloting and
sealing the entry point into the existing case. The difficulty may not
be apparent until you start designing the parts in detail. Also, the
Etek is too big in diameter to go where the crank was. This is a huge
undertaking, and probably not necessary.
> The hacking and mounting of the Etek wouldn't exactly be
> easy, but it would simplify the transfer of power to the rear
> wheel. It would also give me 6 gears for high starting torque
> and higher top speed than the typical single gear/direct drive setup.
I agree that you should use a gearbox. Without it, your motor will
spend too much time at low revs where efficiency sucks. Range on an EM
is difficult to get, so efficiency is very important. If it was me, I'd
look into using a self-contained gearbox from some other motorcycle and
driving it with a toothed belt.
Old British bikes are candidates, but not for anything producing monster
torque. You could also look into two-stroke dirt bike engines with dry
clutches. Many of these are probably cast in-unit with the crankcase,
but the trans oil is separate and you can cut off the crankcase as
described above. Hmmm, there are some Ducatis that might work too.
Or consider this. Couple an A89 to a Sportster gearbox, powered by 96 V
of Hawkers. Now you have good performance. Or two A89s, direct drive
with a Zilla switching them from parallel to series, with 144 V of
Hawkers. That puts you out of the running in terms of efficiency, but
who cares? ;^)
Good luck, and keep us posted.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.r50rd.co.uk/research/internal/v2i/engin/
[..]
You just can't beat the power density of petrol, and even with the abysmal
conversion efficiency of all IC engines, they still beat batteries. For a robot
of this scope, having a long-lasting and quickly "rechargeable" power source
was crucial. I wanted run-times longer than twenty minutes :-).
[..]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Sam Harper wrote:
> I was thinking the same thing! Why not take, say, technology from the
> Volkswagen TDI which already gets amazing gas mileage (50ish) and
> incorporate a hybrid drivetrain? I could see a net-MPG of near 80 with
> such a combination.
Well, I was going to point at this:
http://www.allpar.com/model/intrepid-esx3.html
but I haven't read this:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1414040776/chryslerplymouth/103-6688945-0510264
suggested reading yet.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there something wrong with stating the truth, even if it isn't what you
want to hear? Perhaps the only change I would make to the passage you quoted
is to replace "power density" with "energy density." As far as battery
technology has come, it's still quite a ways from the energy content in
petrol. And as the author said, even factoring in the horrendous efficiency
of internal combustion, you still end up with far more net energy than what
you can get from an equal weight of battery.
mason
-----Original Message-----
http://www.r50rd.co.uk/research/internal/v2i/engin/
[..]
You just can't beat the power density of petrol, and even with the abysmal
conversion efficiency of all IC engines, they still beat batteries. For a
robot
of this scope, having a long-lasting and quickly "rechargeable" power source
was crucial. I wanted run-times longer than twenty minutes :-).
[..]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Mason Convey wrote:
> Is there something wrong with stating the truth, even if it isn't what you
> want to hear? Perhaps the only change I would make to the passage you quoted
> is to replace "power density" with "energy density." As far as battery
> technology has come, it's still quite a ways from the energy content in
> petrol. And as the author said, even factoring in the horrendous efficiency
> of internal combustion, you still end up with far more net energy than what
> you can get from an equal weight of battery.
Well, the 20 minutes seems somewhat low, but the energy density issue is
certainly real.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Comments on a diseasel Hybrid
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars, deisel hybrid
> I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done a
> deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy.
That's why! THEY don't want to cut the Oilies any "Breaks"
We
> designed one at GE-EV for the PNGV program at 80mpg, using a kubota
tractor
> engine for use in small cars. Does anyone know if there are diesel-hybrid
> designs in the works and why not? Mark
VW? But they have the Lupo that duz 80 miles per gal, as a direct drive
Diseasel. The Europeans are 'way aheasd of us on cleaning up diesels, many
of the cars sold Over There are diesel, anyhow. You can't buy a Lupo HERE!
Here in USA folks think " Diesel" Yeah! That Rattly ,smoky, Rabbit ,
Oldsmobauble, or Clattering Ford or Dodge Ram pickup. But I loved my
diseasel Rabbit, easy tio work on, parts cheap, got good miliage, and died
so I could convert it to electric. I hava 81 Rabbit diesel, with probably
300k on it. I was given it @ 238 k stuck on the clock, 5 years ago, kid
drove it for years, treated it to new glow plugs, many oil changes, and new
tires. That is all! It runs great, still, cost me Zero as it's former owner
was gunna junk it when I spoke up! If my Prius lives that long?
Seeya
Bob
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Monday, April 12, 2004 10:29 PM
> Subject: Re: Ford Hybrid cleaner than Electric Cars
>
>
> > Don Buckshot wrote:
> > > about the Prius he was showing there .... He told this lady the
exhaust
> > > gas from the Prius was cleaner than the air going into the engine.
How
> > > in the H.... can he say that? Where is the common sense? More
> > > mis-information...
> >
> > Well, it IS cleaner .oO(not counting the CO2, which isn't a pollutant)
> > Sheesh, just can't win when they makup rules like Partial-ZEV?
> > Then they start count HEV and PZEV as "electric", how twisted is that.
> >
> > L8r
> > Ryan
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> Weakest batteries are dumpstered.
Hi Chris,
Sorry I'm doing a bit of catch-up on reading the list. I realize you
know better and this is probably only a figure of speech. However, for
the benefit of the newbies I'll mention that lead acid batteries should
never be "dumpstered".
Very bad environmentally, and completely unnecessary. Take them to
anyone who sells lead acid batteries and they'll get recycled. Lead
acid batteries are one of the best recycling success stories anywhere.
You wouldn't dump oil from an oil change on the ground, would you? So
don't chuck a lead-acid battery in the trash.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> asked (in part):
> I never understood why none of the auto manufacturers never have done
> a deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in fuel economy.
Off hand, I would guess it has a lot to do with the general dislike of
diesel powered vehicles in this country. I'm not trying to start a
discussion about how nice newer diesels are, but there is a large
percentage of people who would NEVER consider buying "one of those stinky,
noisy, diesels" - me included. I drive one for a volunteer agency and hate
the damn thing.
-----------------------
Jim Walls - K6CCC
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Mobile Radio Operations
Southern California Edison Co.
Ofc: 626-302-8515 - PAX 28-515
FAX: 626-302-7501 - PAX 27-501
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> You really need to run the charger
> from a GFI protected outlet. Just so you don't hurt it. I
> will give you more tips later when you get to the install point.
Hi Rich,
Again I have to apologize for being behind on my list reading. This
post made my head hurt a little, because I thought I had a handle on
isolation, GFIs and all that. Using a GFI to protect the *charger* is a
new concept for me.
I believe you when you say I should have a GFI, but I'm not clear how
that protects the charger. More important to me is that I will have a
GFI outlet that powers an isolation transformer, which will then power
the charger. Safety ground passes through direct from the wall to the
car chassis. If the isolation transformer is functioning properly, the
GFI never comes into play. Does this setup put the charger at risk if
there's a ground fault in the car? How?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Mark Hanson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I never understood why none of the auto
> manufacturers never have done a
> deisel hybrid when you could gain another 30-40% in
> fuel economy.
economics.
The diesel engines drivetrains with advanced clean up
technologies are already more expensive than gasoline
IC engines, so adding a hybrid system adds a double
cost premium.
I do agree that it would be worthwhile project and I
suspect when the hybrid costs come down, someone will
do it in a production car.
> engine for use in small cars. Does anyone know if
> there are diesel-hybrid
> designs in the works and why not? Mark
I am not aware of any for light duty vehicles. Many
people are working on diesel hybrid buses etc.
~Fortunat
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Small Business $15K Web Design Giveaway
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Zach wrote:
> But at the end all the batteries will be at the same level of charge.
> Sort of since I am now convinced that resting battery voltage is no
> indication of capacity.
>
> And given that, what good are charge regulators? If my pack
> were truly
> out of balance I would expect the battery voltages to be all over the
> place, especially after running the pack at an "average" of
> 10vpb at "C"
> a few hours earlier...
Hi Chris,
Still wading through old posts here, and started thinking. Maybe you're
right, Hawkers all pretty much come up to the same voltage when charged,
regardless of capacity. I think the value of some sort of balancing
system based on voltage is in making sure all the batteries see
essentially the same use as they're used, so the idea still has merit.
*Provided* they all see similar use, as in all living their lives in the
same pack.
But your Hawkers are surplus. They can have dramatically different
capacities, but as you say may all have similar charged resting
voltages. As the mixed capacity batteries work together in the same
pack, their differences grow. And still their resting voltages are
similar.
If it was me I would individually check each battery for capacity
(several cycles) and assemble a pack that way. You might spend as much
in surplus batteries to get a matched pack (not counting the tremendous
expenditure of your time) as you might by just buying a new pack from
Hawker.
Battery experts, am I making any sense?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV Peoples:
I thought fersure these guys would do the EV snub, a la UCS Hybrid Rally,
but NO!
It would be nice if we could mass some EV representation down at the
Petersen on 6/28 to help send them off.
I think I'll pester the guys at AC Propulsion as well.
And since I did shoot my mouth, er, email off about the hybrid trailer, did
a group of listers actually buy the one that was up for sale a few months
ago? It would be cool to see that down there as well, though I imagine
Scott's interest in the "high rollers" has more to do with sponsorship than
hardware:^0
Charge On!
Marv
----------
From: "Scott Fischler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2004 08:31:55 -0700
To: "'Marvin Campbell'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: H Drive 2004
Hi Marvin, thanks for your email. I'm very interested in talking with you
about the RAV4 EVs, especially the 'high roller' with the trailers. We are
definitely not exclusive to H2 and biodiesel. Besides those fuels, we are
anticipating electric, propane, CNG, and other alt fuels for the drive. H2
is our ultimate goal but it is going to take all of the other alt fuels to
get us there. Here is the link to our press release that just hit about two
hours ago. Dennis Weaver's International Hydrogen Drive 2004 to Tour Three
Countries to Promote Energy Independence
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040413/latu020_1.html I'm traveling for the
remainder of the week so let's try to talk early next week. Thanks. Scott
Scott Fischler
Executive Producer
Dennis Weaver's International Hydrogen Drive 2004
Institute of Ecolonomics
760.777.1645 office
818.636.7801 mobile
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.HydrogenDrive.com
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 8:17 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: H Drive 2004
Hey Scott:
A friend emailed me the story from the LA Times.
We have a couple of RAV4 EVs/charged via PV, and a local network of maybe a
couple of dozen other RAV4 EV drivers here in the LA area.
Unless you guys are being exclusionary:^0 we could come out and help
represent the cause for your send-off at the Petersen on 6/28.
Somebody told me you were only going with H and BioD support vehicles, but
to be technically precise, the RAV4 EV does run off H as it's battery is
nickel-metal hydride (they didn't call it nickel-metal hydrogen because of
marketing concerns, i.e., remember the Hindenberg, etc.)
A couple of the high rollers could run with you for the distance as they've
gotten the EV range-extending trailers from AC Propulsion out in San Dimas
(www.acpropulsion.com). Personally, I didn't have the $ necessary to swing
THAT deal- the trailers, a propane powered 20K DC genny on wheels, cost
$20K! But allow your EV to run without running the battery down.
Hope to hear from you soon!
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
310.838.0131
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Like Jim,
I also do not want a discussion thread of the pros and cons
of fuels ... (so do not start any fuel threads please),
but when I (as an EVr) was invited to the ALA (American Lung
Association) Navato Clean Fuels meeting (EVs were considered
as a clean fuel vehicle), the ALA rep made is very clear that
diesel was evil: micro-particulates lodging in lungs, etc.,
and ALA was doing everything they could to stop its use (all
the while there were large Chevron Oil helium balloons at each
table, go figure).
I had advised her of cleaner bio-diesel, but she would not
hear of it (hear no evil). This seemed very odd, and heavy
handed of an organization that touted themselves as informed
and embracing all cleaner technologies.
But sadly, those attending representing those sources, were
also either mis-informed, or had their own prejudices as to
what was cleaner, good or evil.
None of them knew anything of EVs except 'aren't those 'things'
golf carts? ... (right, I drove a golf cart on Highway 101 to
get there, sheesh!)
My point being, there are forces in the US that do not want to
see any new diesel vehicles on the road.
=====
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor & RE newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
=====
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--- End Message ---
