EV Digest 3477
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Min clearances
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Min clearances
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Min clearances
by Michael Hoskinson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Min clearances
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Alternative vehicle drive
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Min clearances
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Min clearances
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Min clearances
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Min clearances
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: dc/dc converter rec's for 156 volts?
by "Mark Brueggemann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Min clearances
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: one, or more, motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Chevrolet S10E truck for sale as parts
by Jeff Thomas <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Min clearances
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: dc/dc converter rec's for 156 volts?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: one, or more, motors
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) insight hack
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Min clearances
by "acid_lead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: one, or more, motors
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: insight hack
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: help with EV motor data
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Min clearances
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: one, or more, motors
by "David McAlister" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: insight hack
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Chevrolet S10E truck for sale as parts
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) iota powersupply source
by elaine chiu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Chevrolet S10E truck for sale as parts
by Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) EV's in the UK
by "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
Hawkers.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There is no rule that governs this. It is up to the vehicle designer to
consider the typical driving and the suspension design to ensure that the
car does not bottom out during "normal" driving.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:36 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Min clearances
>
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good to see you haven't given up!
I can't answer your question, except to mention that the normal ground
clearance for the Citroen is 5 1/2 to 6 inches, according to the
manual. Of course, YHMV (your height may vary) depending on how stiff
is your suspension. You don't wanna bottom out and whack the pack.
Mike Hoskinson
Edmonton
Christopher Zach wrote:
Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
Hawkers.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
I just happen to be working on this same issue, trying to stuff 26 Optima
Yellow Tops on my '93 Prizm. It took a while to sort out but I did come
up with a pretty good plan. One box in the trunk (where the spare tire
used to live) will hold 8, another box under the rear seat will hold 6,
another box in front of the firewall (over the motor/transmission) will
hold 6, and the last box (which is actually three smaler compartments)
in and around the radiator opening will hold another 6. These will be
arranged into 13 pairs in series to make a pack of 156 volts. The boxes
have room for 1/2 inch of insulation inside on all sides.
The bottom of the box under the rear seat will be at the same level as
the car's floor pans, and the bottom of the trunk box is at the same
level as the bottom of the plastic shroud on the rear bumper.
I still need to figure out what sort of springs/struts to use to carry
the extra weight. Do you know what's installed in your Prizm?
Ralph
Christopher Zach writes:
>
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am going to sponsor a mile of this event if they
will allow me and my insight to come along. I have
also offered to bring my electric VW to the San Diego
media point and even let people drive it. if they are
interested.
keith
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm just passing this on, hopefully we can get
> more battery EV's involved.
> Rod
>
> Hi Everyone!
>
> I want to let you all know about an important event
> that needs
> everyone's support:
>
> Actor Dennis Weaver's International Hydrogen Drive
> 2004 (which will
> include both hydrogen fuel cell and internal
> combustion, hybrid and
> bio-diesel vehicles) is confirmed!! This is a very
> important cause
> that is involving celebrities and politicians, but
> it
> needs more
> visibility among the actual environmental groups!
>
> The link is http://www.hydrogendrive.com
>
> The IHD2004 is an international caravan (with major
> stars and
> national political figures) -- all driving new
> alternative fuel
> vehicles to bring visibility to the progress
> manufacturers have made
> and the viability of these alternative vehicles.
> Both
> celebrities
> and politicians are signing up to become involved.
>
> It will start in LA on June 28th, wind down to
> Mexico,
> then back up
> through California, Oregon, Washington, finally
> finishing up in
> Vancouver on July 12th. MSNBC will be covering it
> and
> there will be
> 26 celebrity rallies, along the way! (As well as
> future caravans to
> be scheduled for other parts of the country, coming
> soon!).
>
> Here are the reasons I'm asking everyone to check
> out
> IHD2004:
>
> 1. IHD2004 is an important kickoff for the
> Geo-Political-
> Environmentalism (G-P-E) movement -- which is
> publicizing the
> philosophy that we will never truly be safe until we
> have no further
> dependence on resources from the Middle East (i.e.
> no
> more need for
> oil).
>
> 2. IHD2004 will be bringing visibility to the fact
> that the new
> alternative fuel cars now include all shapes and
> sizes
> and sources of
> fuels and that many states are now setting up
> hydrogen
> highways
> (alternative fueling stations every 20 miles, along
> their own main
> highways, so people can fill up, as they go)!
>
> 3. My involvement: In addition to being a strong
> supporter of
> alternative fuels, I am also a TV/Film composer (in
> my
> day job :o)
> The International Hydrogen Drive is using my music (
> http://janetritz.com/songs.htm ) for their theme
> song
> and, frankly,
> I'm hoping it will encourage people to check out
> more
> of my music and
> spread the word (as I make my living on cd sales).
> Anyway, if you're
> curious, please check out both
> http://www.JanetRitz.com and the
> Highlights box at http://hydrogendrive.com .
>
> 4. These drives have FREE celebrity rallies, along
> the
> way, and are a
> super way to have FUN and meet great people!
>
> Please check out the above links, tell everyone you
> know about
> IHD2004, also please check out my music site
> (http://www.janetritz.com) and forward this email to
> all interested
> parties!!
>
> Thanks!
>
> Janet Ritz
> http://www.janetritz.com
> http://www.hydrogendrive.com
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Brandt wrote:
> There is no rule that governs this. It is up to the vehicle
> designer to consider the typical driving and the suspension
> design to ensure that the car does not bottom out during
> "normal" driving.
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:36 AM
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Min clearances
> >
> > Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that
> is allowed
> > for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
> >
> > Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump
> > the Hawkers.
Hi David,
I beg to differ. The designer must certainly make sure no bits of
hardware come crashing into the pavement, but there are plenty of
vehicle equipment laws out there addressing this.
I believe that typically you can't have anything lower than the wheel
rim. That's so if you get a flat you're still supporting your
undercarriage above the roadway. That's kind of an extreme limit
though. I think it applies mostly to LA lowriders who don't care if a
car is safe as long as it's maximum cool. You need more clearance than
this to accommodate any bumps you might hit while running on a flat.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It varies by state. Not sure about MD, but NY and CT both require 4 inches minimum.
Sometime when you have a couple extra hours, call the MVA. ;-)
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Christopher Zach
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 11:36 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Min clearances
>
>
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe a better way to say it would have been "here where everybody's "small"
car is a 1 ton dually pickup, there isn't a rule...":-)
Seriously, though, do you have some references? I'd love to look at them,
and I know Chris would as well.
On an OT side note to this, I was designing a truck mounted pump for dyno
nobel one time (the people who make anfo slurry for blasting in mining
operations), and asked what regulations could give me guidance on what sort
of G loads the pump was subject to (I was thinking something like the FAR's
are for aircraft, where they give you some idea of worst-case conditions).
Their answer? "There aren't any regulations." Turns out they had been
doing most of their design by gut feel.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Tromley [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 12:23 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Min clearances
>
> David Brandt wrote:
>
> > There is no rule that governs this. It is up to the vehicle
> > designer to consider the typical driving and the suspension
> > design to ensure that the car does not bottom out during
> > "normal" driving.
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:36 AM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Min clearances
> > >
> > > Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that
> > is allowed
> > > for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
> > >
> > > Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump
> > > the Hawkers.
>
> Hi David,
>
> I beg to differ. The designer must certainly make sure no bits of
> hardware come crashing into the pavement, but there are plenty of
> vehicle equipment laws out there addressing this.
>
> I believe that typically you can't have anything lower than the wheel
> rim. That's so if you get a flat you're still supporting your
> undercarriage above the roadway. That's kind of an extreme limit
> though. I think it applies mostly to LA lowriders who don't care if a
> car is safe as long as it's maximum cool. You need more clearance than
> this to accommodate any bumps you might hit while running on a flat.
>
> Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere
> and dump the
> Hawkers.
Hi Chris,
I have a '93 Toyota Corolla (same car as your Prizm, I think). I
considered converting it before finding my Lectric Leopard. As I
recall, fitting 25 Orbitals or YTs could be a challenge. You won't be
able to get any under the floors, the area under the rear seat is not
quite deep enough, and the rear suspension gets in the way.
I think I figured it would only work if you had a row of batteries in
front of the motor and another behind (tight squeeze), and then another
layer on top of those. Of course, I wasn't dealing with a big inverter,
either.
Which is not to say you can't do it. Get a tape measure, maybe make an
Orbital-sized cardboard box and spend some time peering into nooks and
crannies. Think creatively. It might work.
For one possible example, the sheet metal behind your grille on which
the original radiator mounted is probably not in the best place. If it
was just a little forward or rearward you might be able to put another
layer of batteries under the hood. It's probably not too hard to carve
away the offending sheet metal and replace its structural contribution
with something different, in a more battery-friendly location. Don't
take the original configuration of the car as sacred - it's only a
solution to a set of circumstances that are different from yours. You'd
be surprised what you can change.
Or make it easy on yourself and give up your back seat.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
elaine wrote:
> now i'm concerned that 132v may not be enough
> i'm going to have to tuck another 2 batteries somewhere
> to make 144. do you agree?
As long as your controller can handle it, I would agree.
I have not tested where the bottom end of the Iota charger is.
But by going from 144V where I successfully use it, to 132V
you have automatically removed 12V of headroom that you
probably can't spare. You would probably find it kicking
off under load when the batteries sag.
Ryan wrote:
> The 30 and 50 amp models are rated at 120 VAC. What voltage (DC) are
> you running it at?
144V pack.
> How hot does it get during operation?
Impercepbibly warm. When I did the initial testing I intentionally
overloaded it for about 30 minutes. The fan came on and stayed on, and
the unit only got warm.
John Wayland wrote:
> I heartily recommend the Todd DC-DC's for anyone's EV conversion!
I wish my experiences with Todd's were as positive as John's. I've had
two PC-30's fail outright (one in a spectacular way, one just stopped),
and I replaced the third with the Iota charger after growing weary of the
PC30's characteristic of shutting off under high load and not turning
back on until the load was decreased. In other words, when I counted on
it most with lights and heater blower running, it shut off until I turned
something off to reduce the load. The Iota charger on the other hand,
simply goes into a constant current mode so even if you exceed the limits,
the worst that happens is the voltage will dip. With the Todd's I never
had the privilege of lights and heat at the same time, now I can turn on
every 12V accessory possible and still have enough headroom to charge the
aux batt. This Iota has now outlasted both of the Todd's that failed. I
don't think the Todd is particularily robust, nor do I recommend anyone
install them in their EV's now that I've had experience with a better
unit. The Iota is easy to find and buy, and replace if necessary at a
resonable cost compared to finding suitable used Todd's. They were OK
when there were few other choices, but I don't think they're worth it
anymore.
Mark Brueggemann
Albuquerque, NM
S-10 EV
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In California it used to be the lowest point of the rim. You wouldn't
want to go lower than that in any case, so the car doesn't drag the
ground if you get a flat.
--- Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is
> allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump
> the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
>
=====
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Andre Blanchard wrote:
If you did a series/parallel switch on the windings in the AC
motor it should have the same effect it does on a DC system.
Yes, it does; but they have usually designed the inverter so it isn't
necessary.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
In short, you cannot do that, because at least:
1. the frequency in general is different for both motors.
Suppose you have a separate motor to drive each wheel. How much do you
think the speed will differ when turning the sharpest corner? Not much.
How much do you thing the difference will be if one wheel slips
on ice and the other grips?
If they are induction motors, normal slip will be enough to handle it.
If driven with a single inverter, it will just behave like a car with a
limited-slip differential.
Lee, as you know *anything* can be done just as any point anyone
makes can be argued with :-). While technically it is possible
to do stuff, *normally*, in industry, it is not done for good reasons.
One off projects like Seth mentioned for solar car does not count.
You certainly can rewind the motors, bring all the windings
outside, tap them and switch pieces in series/parallel/any combo
you wish.
Your academic points, are, of course, valid, but you will not find
any serious EV build that way.
2. Stator windings are connected in a star or delta configuration,
there is no "start" AND end of the same winding available.
This may be arranged, but the reason 1 still applies.
It depends on the motor. There are always pairs of windings, one on each
side of the motor. They may be connected in series or parallel, as the
designer chooses. In some cases it is easy to change (they brought out
all the wires); in others, nearly impossible (they buried all the
connections inside, and only brought out 3 wires).
Right. Please point me to any manufacturer of any type of EV
using any AC motor with switchable windings. I'd be happy to learn
why they did it or rather why they didn't do it.
The whole point of using AC motors and high enough voltage is
to *avoid* all this series-parallel stuff being debated today.
There are *lots* of ways to solve every problem. AC drives just happen
to favor having a high voltage battery pack, so they can get lots of HP
at high rpm. But this means the controller must step down the voltage *a
lot* for low-speed operation.
...which is no problem.
Also, did I mention a 96V OEM EV example?:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/160.html
DC drives just happen to favor having a low voltage battery pack, so the
controller doesn't need to step the voltage down as far for low-speed
operation. But the consequence is that you 'run out of voltage' at high
speeds.
In both cases (AC or DC), you can either switch the pack voltage or
motor windings in series/parallel to optimize them for high-speed or
low-speed operation. This is easier with DC motors, because there are
fewer windings to switch. It is also easier with DC controllers because
they are generally much simpler, and don't care about the motor's
parameters (nothing in the controller needs to change when the motor
windings are switched between series/parallel).
I agree, my personal preference though is not having to switch anything,
and AC solution happens to excel in this.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
List members:
In the original posting at bottom, Larry Dustman was
interested in repairing his 1997 S10E.
I met with Larry, and discussed acquiring all of the
parts to reassemble his S10E purchased recently. He
has since decided it would be better to sell it as a
parts vehicle. The asking price is $5500.00 The truck
is located in Chandler, AZ.
What we know about his S10E:
Body is in good condition, only a few dings. The
battery pack is complete, and all batteries were
individually charged. All were at a low standing
voltage when he received it. The capacity is unknown.
Mileage is unknown.
The truck appeared to have been a parts donor to
maintain a fleet of S10E's, and is missing some
organs. The obvious are:
Radiator
Drivers door
Seat
Dash instrument cluster. incl radio & A/C controls.
Misc A/C components under hood incl condenser coil.
Four relays and their connectors mounted on the upper
firewall (cut wires).
We noticed the Inverter was loose and disconnected, so
we were concerned whether it was OK. I tested it over
the weekend on another running 97 S10E and discovered
the aux battery contact posts are at a direct short
with each other. We did not get any further in testing
it.
That was the deciding factor in him keeping the truck.
The drivetrain appears to be fine. It is complete, and
has no wrench marks. This would make an excellent
front wheel drive package for anyone interested in a
FD vehicle conversion.
You can contact Larry at (602) 486-6518, or his office
at the 800 number below in the original message.
Regards, Jeff
------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:16 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: lldustman owner of s10 ev
I have an EV S10 that I am trying to get running and
would like to talk to others with the same vehicle.
Thanks,
Larry Dustman
Chandler Az
800-898-4464
__________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It depends on your state laws. In Idaho, no part of the car can be lower
than the lowest part of the rim... see:
http://www3.state.id.us/cgi-bin/newidst?sctid=490090065.K
your state may have their vehicle laws online too.. ?
-Jon Glauser
Christopher Zach wrote:
Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump
the Hawkers.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
aux batt. This Iota has now outlasted both of the Todd's that failed. I
don't think the Todd is particularily robust, nor do I recommend anyone
install them in their EV's now that I've had experience with a better
unit. The Iota is easy to find and buy, and replace if necessary at a
resonable cost
Mark Brueggemann
Mark, where did you get your Iota? I've found a few places, but wonder
if a better buy exists - you said yours was re-branded. As what?
Thanks,
Ryan
--
See the great April rebates on Zillas at http://www.evsource.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
It sure seems elegant to me if we can get rid
of the clutch/transmission/differentials for some
sort of simple reduction gear or belt to
drive shafts.
http://www.metricmind.com/images/mot4.jpg
http://www.metricmind.com/images/mot2.jpg
The length of these motors vary from 154 mm to 241 mm
depending on the power.
that mot4 looks pretty short. Perhaps you could get them
in back-to-back.
Isn't 123 hp peak from the most powerful motor enough?
I would think that for AC it would have to be a dual-controller.
Split the pack voltage between two inverters most of the
time. Put the dual controllers in parallel when
you need high power.
How does that dual-motor bus system work?
It is 6 phase output, really two 3 phase independent outputs,
but the control CPU board is common for both channels.
So it is to really independent inverters sharing common
CPU resources.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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--- Begin Message ---
Actualy 3 pole is 3 pole pairs which = 6 coils. Times the 3 phases is 18
coils total and that is what the motor is.
3 pole, and 3phase
and they are Salient pole motors . not distributed.
but man these are beuties, I cant wait till some hit the wrecking yard,
the motors look almost stackable. :-)
series/parallel in AC Is changing poles by factor of 2 but AC can have
3 steps like 2-4-8 pole :-)
Just dreaming, wouldn't it be cool if there were 6 studs coming out of a
9" and you could mount a contactor directly to the motor for low/high range
BTW our bigger lathes at work use series/parallel switch for it's 2
power ranges high and low
Correct me if I am wrong Victor, but the siemans setup gives you
multi-speed control with frequency and managed slip that is equivilant
to the variable brush timing the guys are doing on DC now. (vector drive)
To run at say 50% slip for 5 min (to get abnoxious torque) would melt
the rotor. Stuff like that is the purview of the wound rotor AC motor.
which can move the extra rotor current out of the motor via slip-rings
and dissapate or regenerate it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is
allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump
the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
The definition of ground clearance is a bit wacky. My MG Midget specs
say it had 5" ground clearance... yea, after the exhaust pipe is
scraped off maybe, oh, and the HAND BRAKE CABLE too...
There are 2 conditions to satisfy; how deep a pothole or bump do you
want to accommodate* (probably where state "regulations" come at it
from), and how much will the suspension travel on bumps plus leaning
in a corner?
*Actually, that's a static condition as in stopped in traffic.
You ought to stick to the original ground clearance UNLESS you
stiffen the springs and anti-sway bars. INCREASE it if you exceed the
max GVW.
The Tour de Sol has a spec if you plan to enter. It is a tyrannical
number like 5.5" regardless of other chassis modifications. The
biggest insult in their rule book is that they require you to consult
THEM, BEFORE cutting any body structure away(!) But I digress.
I am not letting the bottom of a battery box be the lowest point on
my car. The bottom of my MG is covered with indentations. Of course I
have vague memories of running over tree branches, high-centering on
snow plow berms, surprise off-road excursions, sidewalk exploration
(got a ticket for that one)...
If the road conditions and the way you drive are moderate, you can
get away with a mild reduction in ground clearance. Trial and error
is required to get the right answer, so make it easy to adjust
up/down. Some shocks come with rubber rings that slide on the piston
shaft that "remember" how far it has compressed. You might also be
able to put clay on the bump stop area to get an idea how much spare
travel there is.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> > Suppose you have a separate motor to drive each wheel. How much do you
> > think the speed will differ when turning the sharpest corner? Not much.
>
> How much do you thing the difference will be if one wheel slips
> on ice and the other grips?
Lee has already covered that in the comment below.
> > If they are induction motors, normal slip will be enough to handle it.
> > If driven with a single inverter, it will just behave like a car with a
> > limited-slip differential.
The motor driving the wheel on ice will be operating at a low slip frequency
and deliver little torque. The wheel with grip will be operating at a higher
slip frequency and will deliver most torque. Just like a LSD.
Such a setup could well cause handling problems though.
> Right. Please point me to any manufacturer of any type of EV
> using any AC motor with switchable windings. I'd be happy to learn
> why they did it or rather why they didn't do it.
Older Brusa drives as sold by Solectria could be used with a switchable
star/delta configuration to boost low speed torque. Just like running two DC
motors in series/parallel this gave maximum torque for a given controller
current capacity.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
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--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Actualy 3 pole is 3 pole pairs which = 6 coils. Times the 3 phases is 18
coils total and that is what the motor is.
3 pole, and 3phase
and they are Salient pole motors . not distributed.
but man these are beuties, I cant wait till some hit the wrecking yard,
the motors look almost stackable. :-)
series/parallel in AC Is changing poles by factor of 2 but AC can have
3 steps like 2-4-8 pole :-)
Just dreaming, wouldn't it be cool if there were 6 studs coming out of a
9" and you could mount a contactor directly to the motor for low/high range
BTW our bigger lathes at work use series/parallel switch for it's 2
power ranges high and low
The lathe normally runs at fixed speeds, right?
Correct me if I am wrong Victor, but the siemans setup gives you
multi-speed control with frequency and managed slip that is equivilant
to the variable brush timing the guys are doing on DC now. (vector drive)
Oh, no. Controlling slip with an inverter is not the same as rotating
brush plate of a DC motor without controller involved.
And advancing the brushes as I understand is to minimize arcing and
back EMF for given speed and direction. DC gurus will explain it better.
Advance can be 0 and the motor will run just fine.
Slip of an induction motor cannot be zero, and these (slip and advance)
are two entirely different animals, no analogy.
To run at say 50% slip for 5 min (to get abnoxious torque) would melt
the rotor.
Depends on the power and RPM, but of course more slip - more heat
is generated in the rotor.
Stuff like that is the purview of the wound rotor AC motor.
which can move the extra rotor current out of the motor via slip-rings
and dissapate or regenerate it.
No brushes please, even for the slip rings.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Roger Stockton wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately, at the present time I don't think you will find it
> easy (if even possible) to find test data for race conditions, so it
> will be very difficult to develop equations which accurately model
> race behaviour. Stay tuned though, as Rich Rudman may just become
> the premier source of EV motor dyno data...
>
Yea I will try, right now I don't have a lot of data collection besides
about 4 meters and a note book.
I am making a Mad run to Phoenix this weeked with Rod Wilde to pick up
some equipemnt. I am collecting a 650 amp welder from Dennis Berube,
this should be good for about a 200 Hp load. Maybe more for short peak
bursts. I intend to use the AC side for loading also. Getting 900 lbs of
Mgset from 1800 miles down range...is expensive and time consuming.
So I will beable to load down some series paralel combos, and take thier
measure.
Lets all remember that I have daily stacks of those pretty green Boxes
to make and ship. Production is getting in the way of R&D, but it's also
getting me the spare change that I need to play this hard.
I can load stuff up to 500 amps and 96 volts, and out too 5500 rpm
right now. Is there any data points inside this envelope on a Adcanced
DC 8 incher EV motor(Stocker), that would anybody would like to know
about? This is all well inside the published motor curves from Kta or
Evparts. I need my Zilla 2K to chart outside the known motor curves.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
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Depends on the state. In Texas, no part of the car can be lower than the
lowest part of the wheel (metal wheel, not tire) or it will not pass
inspection. Since Maryland has no annual inspection, road clearance is more
of a concern. You don't want your battery boxes ripped off by a higher than
normal manhole (I had a transmission pan punctured by one a few years back)
or other obstacle.
From: David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "'[EMAIL PROTECTED]'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: Min clearances
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:43:31 -0500
There is no rule that governs this. It is up to the vehicle designer to
consider the typical driving and the suspension design to ensure that the
car does not bottom out during "normal" driving.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christopher Zach [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2004 10:36 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Min clearances
>
> Question: Does anyone know what the minimum clearance that is allowed
> for cars between the road and the lowest point on the car?
>
> Thinking of a way to fit 25 Optimas in the Prizm somewhere and dump the
> Hawkers.
>
> Chris
_________________________________________________________________
MSN Toolbar provides one-click access to Hotmail from any Web page � FREE
download! http://toolbar.msn.com/go/onm00200413ave/direct/01/
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I have done S/P on AC induction motors, but for a different reason. This
was an application using an 2 hp controller on a 1 hp motor (or some similar
numbers). I was having trouble with speed regulation with the motor wired
for 480 volts (windings in series) because I was using a small percentage of
the rated current capacity and measuring ability of the controller. By
changing the motor to 240 volts (windings in parallel) the current doubled
and moved into the more accurate range of the current measuring devices in
the controller. This was not done "on the fly" as the drag guys are
talking, but it shows it could be done.
David
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 6:17 PM
Subject: RE: one, or more, motors
> Comments inserted.
>
> See you tomorrow.
>
> Thanks,
> Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2004 5:36 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: one, or more, motors
>
> > Andre Blanchard wrote:
> >
> > > If you did a series/parallel switch on the windings in the AC motor it
> > > should have the same effect it does on a DC system.
> >
> > In short, you cannot do that, because at least:
> >
> > 1. the frequency in general is
> > different for both motors. There is 6 phase (dual 3 phase)
> > 350 kW Elfa inverter http://www.metricmind.com/images/elfa.jpg
> > which handles two motors simultaneously,
> >
> > 2. Stator windings are connected in a star or delta configuration,
> > there is no "start" AND end of the same winding available.
> > This may be arranged, but the reason 1 still applies.
>
> I was talking series/parallel switching the windings of one motor not two.
> I have done it many times when changing machine tools over from 480 to
240,
> if it can be done on a 60hz single speed motor it can be done on a
variable
> frequency/speed motor. The controller just has to be told how to do it.
It
> could also be a star/delta switch which has been done on machine tool
> spindles.
>
> > > You have greater low
> > > end torque and/or higher RPM without having to go to a higher battery
> > > voltage.
> >
> > The whole point of using AC motors and high enough voltage is
> > to *avoid* all this series-parallel stuff being debated today.
>
> The whole point of using AC motors is to be high tech and have real nice
> regen. High voltage takes more expensive silicon in both the speed
control
> and the charging system, and lets not forget fuses, contactors, and
> connectors. Bucking high voltage down for high current slow speed
operation
> takes fast expensive silicon. Being high tech is not the only or always
the
> best solution to a problem but it is what seems to attract the most
> attention. I am not saying that AC is not a good way to go just that AC
> does not need to mean high voltage.
>
> > --
> > Victor
> > '91 ACRX - something different
> >
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Actualy 3 pole is 3 pole pairs which = 6 coils. Times the 3 phases is 18
coils total and that is what the motor is.
3 pole, and 3phase
and they are Salient pole motors . not distributed.
but man these are beuties, I cant wait till some hit the wrecking yard,
the motors look almost stackable. :-)
So, Here's a nice exploded view of the whole motor:
http://www.insightcentral.net/_images/enmotorparts.jpg
And the Connections:
http://www.insightcentral.net/_images/enmotorconnections.jpg
It appears (here and elsewhere I've seen it) that the motor
has just 3 power connections, and 3 sensor connections?
Or are there two wires in each of the three phase cables?
And don't the sensors need at least one common wire?
I'm not finding much details on the web, and my Electrical
Manual was stolen so I'm not sure what's in there. But it
probably doesn't have any details about the motor "internals".
L8r
Ryan
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--- Begin Message ---
On 20 Apr 2004 at 14:02, Jeff Thomas wrote:
> The asking price is $5500.00 ...
Did you misplace a zero? Seems to me that's about 10 times what it's worth.
This is an incomplete vehicle with an incomplete drive system in unknown
condition for which no replacement parts are available. It's missing body
parts; it's not even a complete glider for reconversion with a DC motor, for
goodness sake.
Presumably Mr. Dustman overbid for this truck, but expecting someone else
to pay for his mistake is pretty optimistic, I think.
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I found the iota, rebranded, at
http://www.rivergatedist.com/ this seems to be a racing car power
supply website, but it's the iota power supply.
this was a distributor link at the iotaengineering website.
I ordered a dls 30 that has shipped and should arrive in a day or two.
prices seemed reasonable. they take paypal.
elaine
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--- Begin Message ---
$5500 seems like an awful lot for a partially stripped vehicle with a
dead controller.
On Tue, 2004-04-20 at 14:02, Jeff Thomas wrote:
> List members:
>
> In the original posting at bottom, Larry Dustman was
> interested in repairing his 1997 S10E.
>
> I met with Larry, and discussed acquiring all of the
> parts to reassemble his S10E purchased recently. He
> has since decided it would be better to sell it as a
> parts vehicle. The asking price is $5500.00 The truck
> is located in Chandler, AZ.
>
> What we know about his S10E:
>
> Body is in good condition, only a few dings. The
> battery pack is complete, and all batteries were
> individually charged. All were at a low standing
> voltage when he received it. The capacity is unknown.
> Mileage is unknown.
> The truck appeared to have been a parts donor to
> maintain a fleet of S10E's, and is missing some
> organs. The obvious are:
> Radiator
> Drivers door
> Seat
> Dash instrument cluster. incl radio & A/C controls.
> Misc A/C components under hood incl condenser coil.
> Four relays and their connectors mounted on the upper
> firewall (cut wires).
>
> We noticed the Inverter was loose and disconnected, so
> we were concerned whether it was OK. I tested it over
> the weekend on another running 97 S10E and discovered
> the aux battery contact posts are at a direct short
> with each other. We did not get any further in testing
> it.
> That was the deciding factor in him keeping the truck.
>
> The drivetrain appears to be fine. It is complete, and
> has no wrench marks. This would make an excellent
> front wheel drive package for anyone interested in a
> FD vehicle conversion.
>
> You can contact Larry at (602) 486-6518, or his office
> at the 800 number below in the original message.
>
> Regards, Jeff
>
> ------------------------
>
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
> Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2004 6:16 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: lldustman owner of s10 ev
>
> I have an EV S10 that I am trying to get running and
> would like to talk to others with the same vehicle.
>
> Thanks,
> Larry Dustman
> Chandler Az
> 800-898-4464
>
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I have just joined the list. I do not currently own an electric vehicle,
but I am very keen to learn where I might obtain one.
Getting hold of an electric vehicle in the UK is very difficult. The
only one I can find is at www.goingreen.co.uk but it has a prohibitive
top speed (40 miles per hour (about 65 kmph)) and range (again 40
miles).
I was ideally looking for one with a top speed of about 55mph (about
90kmph) and a range of 50 miles (80km) or so.
Does anyone know;
1. Where or how I might go about getting an electric vehicle in the UK
2. If there is a UK-based EV discussion list?
Thank you in advance,
Robert
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