EV Digest 3481
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: "Sucking Amps" tomorrow night on Discovery
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EV's in the UK
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV's in the UK
by "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Min clearances, Family car and the TEVan
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battricide was(Min clearances)
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: EV's in the UK
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: EV's in the UK, comments
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Toys on the grass in Port Townsend 4/18/04
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: series parallel AC
by Aaron Birenboim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) re: "sucking amps"
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: sucking amps
by "" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) re: "sucking amps"
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Automotive religion (was: RE: EV's in the UK)
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) re: Motorcycle transmission
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Converting a Nissan Murano
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Motorcycle transmission
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Toys on the grass in Port Townsend 4/18/04
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Converting a Nissan Murano
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Toys on the grass in Port Townsend 4/18/04
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) prizm clearance issues - attn: Chris Zach
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yep, I do.
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
A person's maturity consists in having found again the seriousness one had
as a child, at play. - Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 7:05 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" tomorrow night on Discovery
>
>
> Roderick Wilde wrote:
> > Hi All, If you tune in tomorrow night at 10 PM and like the
> show please send
> > feedback to the following address:
> > http://extweb.discovery.com/viewerrelations You support is
> much appreciated!
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Roderick
> > "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> >
> Does anyone plan to tape it and make mpeg available for download?
> Rod, would that be violating any agreements with Discovery
> (since it is paid for channel)?
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Robert,
See, I told you even getting a brochure is difficult!! When I got one from
my local dealer he had to fish it out of the back of a cupboard and blow the
dust off it - seriously!!
It's stupid but Citroen CANNOT sell you the van with a seat already
(retro)fitted because the vehicle then wouldn't be "type approved". You
_could_ fit a genuine Berlingo rear seat with difficulty, since it involves
chopping the floor to fit anchorage points. And to buy the seat frame,
cushions and covers etc. is over GBP1,000 - I know because I've checked!
You could get them from a wrecked one at a breaker's yard... Probably
better to get an aftermarket one fitted from a company that does minibus
conversions etc.
Windows - you can't fit the genuine rear windows from the Berlingo car (nice
pop out ones) because the side panels are different :-( In France it can be
ordered with fixed side windows so you SHOULD be able to do the same here,
but I don't think that Citroen UK will (yes, they are all made in the same
factory in Vigo, Spain but why should that make it sensible?!)
The batteries WERE on a lease scheme up until a year or two ago. They
probably haven't sold one since (if at all!) so don't realise that it's
changed. I think that the change was prompted by the way the EST calculate
their grants, so Citroen changed to take advantage of it!
You shouldn't have difficulty replacing the batteries - they are made by a
company called Saft and are used in most of the European EVs on the market.
There are 27 individual "monoblocs" in the Berlingo costing about 200-250
quid each. I've got similar batteries in my scooter (but only 3 of them!)
but the Berlingo uses water-cooled ones as opposed to air-cooled. Life
expectancy will vary with how you treat them, but five years before you
notice a drop in range is probably fair. Check what the warranty on the
batteries is like - with the Peugeot scooter it is for 4 years.
The Renault Kangoo hybrid is probably the most practical and developed EV on
the road in Europe today, using an AC motor giving much better efficiency
than the Berlingo. It has the same 60 mile pure EV-mode range as the
electric-only mode using 22 of the air-cooled Saft batteriesl, with a petrol
range extender to boost the range to 125-ish miles, circumventing the
problem of virtually no public charging infrastructure in the UK, apart from
caravan parks!
There is at least one in the country apparently, which I'm hoping to get to
see and drive soon. Probably only available in LHD, bought directly from
France. The range extender adds about GBP2,500 onto the price tag of around
GBP15,000. If you want a brochure (in English) phone Renault France on
00800 220 240 16 (International toll-free). Even though they produce the
brochure in English, Renault UK don't sell the car...
I agree about raising EV's profile - something that I've been trying to do
down here in Cornwall for the past few years. I take my scooter around to
shows whenever I can - it generates a lot of interest. I even rode it 105
miles (round trip) to go to a 'green fair' last summer which proves the
range topic isn't really an issue!
Yes, I could be interested in co-authoring something to further the cause!
Matt
> From: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:32:49 +0100
> To: "'Matt Trevaskis'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: EV's in the UK
>
> Hi Matt,
>
> Thanks, that's great. Have you seen this;
>
> http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/b/blingo3.htm
>
> It gives a good summary of the specs.
>
> I rang Citroen and the first guy said "we don't have a brochure" and
> then hung up when I asked for one!
>
> When I rang them back the next lady was much more helpful. She took all
> my details and said she would arrange a test drive.
>
> I rang again as I realised I'd forgot to ask if I could have a back seat
> fitted, and the next guy I spoke to said this would be possible but I'd
> have to get it done privately and that the extra weight would reduce the
> range.
>
> Then the dealer rang and said that Citroen were talking rubbish, that
> they didn't have an electic van in their fleet, and that the batteries
> would be on lease. When I said I'd have to ring back Citroen to check
> where else I could buy one, he started to become a little more helpful
> and said he'd look into it and ring me back. I'll let you know how I get
> on.
>
> Citroen told me the battery life would be about five years. Do you think
> it would be very difficult to get a replacement battery after this time?
> I've faxed citroen to ask, since the last time I rang they put me on
> hold.
>
> I think that what we need to do in the UK is to try and get EV's more
> available. EV's need to raise their public profile and thus raise
> demand. Most people just don't know that EV's even exist.
>
> How would you feel about the idea of co-writing an article about EV's
> and seeing how many local papers, car magazines, student papers,
> websites etc that we can get it on to. Even if our focus was just on one
> model (like the Berlingo) maybe we could start of a bit of a snowball
> that would stimulate the market. OK, maybe I'm getting a bit carried
> away, but seriously, how about having a stab at co-authoring an article?
>
> Robert
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Matt,
Thanks for all the info. I will look into the Kangoo.
I just got a call form the Renbault Dealer in Leeds to say that he has
looked into it and he won't be able to get a Berlingo for me to test
drive. I left a message on the answering machine of Mr Robert Handyside
0870 606 9000 which is the number I was given by www.powershift.org.uk.
Maybe you'd like to give him a try as well?
If we could get even a couple of these vehicles into the UK with a sign
on the side saying "This is an electric car. Want to learn more? Visit
www.evuk.co.uk" or something like that then I think that would really
get the ball rolling in the UK.
I wonder if we could get partial sponsership from some of the big
electricity companies? How would you feel about helping me try to draft
a letter to someone like Npower? (see
http://www.npower.com/yourhome/green/juiceandwindpower/)
In fact - why not just a letter to all the electricity suppliers we can
think of?
I have had a stab at getting some ideas down on paper. They are very
messey at the minute, I will send you them off list.
Regards,
Brian
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Min clearances, Family car and the TEVan
> Converting the Dodge Caravan would be an option, except for the fact
> that it is the *least* reliable car we have. And that includes a 68
> Porche 911L and a 74 914.
>
> Oddly enough the motor and transmission are the only reliable parts. :-)
>
> CHris
> Hi CHris;
Right on!<g>! All the Crapslers I EVer had over 40 years usually ran
great, but everything ELSE fell apart or rusted away! Like think Flintstone
mobile as you watched the road going by underneath, and had to dodge, pun
intended, puttles. Door handles that came off in your hand, headliners that
fell down, control knobs busted off. But the faithful Slant Six soldiered
on! Typical reasons for Hondas popularity, later on, My Accords never did
all that, or my old Beatles by VW. Wish I could say the Rabbits were as
good. Sigh!
> Patchen up an old Rabbit....as an EV
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First;
Take no Offense, but it's battricide, not suicide. Your killing your batteries, not
yourself. Although, you may feel like you've killed yourself, or want too.
Second;
Have you tried to drill and fill your batteries?
Stay Charged!
but not overcharged
Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chris Zach
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:06 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Min clearances
>
>
> > I'm glad you haven't given up on it.
>
> No, I've had a good pout and cry, and will be replacing the pack.
>
> The more I look at my telemetry logs the more I am sure that going to
> the IUI charge algorythm blew the pack. It's ok; this was a learning
> experience. But trying to run at pack at an average of 15 vpb at 10 amp
> charge rate is simple suicide. Even with regulators, it's suicide.
>
> I'm going to reprogram the MC to go back to it's factory setting. I have
> it somewhere, but I think it was CV to 350 volts, then CC to 375 volts
> with a charge limit current of 1 amp or so. That way the pack can bulk
> up quickly, but when the pack hits 14 vpb (and some are at 15) the
> current is dropped way way back.
>
> The batteries are bulged as well. It was not undercharged....
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe,
The Partner (Berlingo) that I borrowed was a demonstrator model that was
brought down to Cornwall (far south-west UK) on a low-loader for some
trials. They probably don't get treated very well - sitting around for ages
between outings, then used for a few miles before the potential buyers panic
and plug them in!
I borrowed it for a weekend: picked it up on the Friday from the dealer
about 22 miles away, who had forgotten to charge it so I stopped off at my
brother's house on the way home - about 15 miles on 60mph 'freeways' and
then 40mph single lane roads. Full charge Friday and Saturday nights and
used it on mainly 30mph - 40mph roads over the weekend. Never did get near
the max range doing my usual errands! If I recall I used about 50% (by the
gauge) for 30 miles, so at a push 55 miles could have been squeezed out of
it, dipping into the last 20% SOC and assuming a linear gauge (which the
scoot'elec does NOT have!)
On the Monday, returning it to the dealer I gave it the 'speed' test and
drove it flat out all the way back... returned it with about 40% SOC showing
(after 22 miles) so I reckoned that a 30 mile one-way 'at speed' trip would
be the most I would want to attempt comfortably!
Like you suggest, treating the batteries nicely can make a big difference to
their performance.
Matt
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:40:43 +0200
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
>
> Robert,
> contact me off-list i will help you driving electric.
> Matt, i don't understand range you indicate, all PSA (Peugeot citroen) cars
> i have driven were about 40 to 50 miles (heavy foot on throttle or light
> one) range
> 30 miles seems to me poor batterie health indication.
> My Saxo is between 45 to 55 miles now (i make some hard discharge to 60V it
> produce "magic" effect on their health!)
>
> Philippe, from France
>
> 1997 Peugeot Scoot'elec 3500 miles
> 1996 Peugeot Scoot'elec 11,000 miles
> 2001 Citroen Saxo 9000 miles
> Aprilia Extrema EV project in the way...i have Alltrax 72V450A controller,
> 50ah Saft aircraft nicad, 60V Lemco motor...still looking for time :^(
>
> Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 3:33 PM
> Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
>
>
>> ,
>>
>> Probably the easiest vehicle to obtain and maintain is the Citroen
> Berlingo
>> electrique, which is only available as the commercial (van) version -
>> Citroen don't make the Berlingo car version with the electric drive.
>> Top speed is about 60mph and max range is claimed to be 59 miles which at
>> 30mph is about right I would say, but at higher speed driving (e.g. dual
>> carriageways) expect more like 30 miles. Any Citroen commercial dealer
>> should be able to get hold of it, but they need to have a mechanic trained
>> to service it. You may need to be persistent, even to get a brochure!
>>
>> I borrowed one for a weekend (actually the Peugeot Partner equivalent) and
>> the range at lower speeds seems accurate. Nice drive. Still thinking of
>> buying one.
>>
>> Citroen changed the pricing structure - they used to lease the batteries
> at
>> GBP74+VAT per month, but now sell them with the van, pushing the price up
> to
>> about GBP14,500 - but you can get a Powershift grant from the Energy
> Savings
>> Trust which knocks a few grand off that, and then no ongoing costs for
>> leasing :-)
>>
>> The Peugeot 106 electrique is/was available as both a car and van but
> really
>> only to fleets. You can hop on a ferry and buy one in France though,
> albeit
>> with LHD! Quoted range is lower at 50 miles (so real world between 25 and
>> 40 I would guess)
>>
>> The electric versions of the Citroen Saxo, Renault Kangoo and Fiat
> Seicento
>> never made it across/under the Channel so I wouldn't even consider
> importing
>> one for the problematic servicing and parts availability.
>>
>> I don't know of a UK-based list, but would be interested too.
>>
>> Matt (Cornwall)
>> 1999 Peugeot Scoot'elec 13,000 miles
>>
>>> From: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:51:58 +0100
>>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: EV's in the UK
>>>
>>> Hello,
>>>
>>> I have just joined the list. I do not currently own an electric vehicle,
>>> but I am very keen to learn where I might obtain one.
>>>
>>> Getting hold of an electric vehicle in the UK is very difficult. The
>>> only one I can find is at www.goingreen.co.uk but it has a prohibitive
>>> top speed (40 miles per hour (about 65 kmph)) and range (again 40
>>> miles).
>>>
>>> I was ideally looking for one with a top speed of about 55mph (about
>>> 90kmph) and a range of 50 miles (80km) or so.
>>>
>>> Does anyone know;
>>>
>>> 1. Where or how I might go about getting an electric vehicle in the UK
>>> 2. If there is a UK-based EV discussion list?
>>>
>>> Thank you in advance,
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> There IS a association of EVers there. With yur petrel prices, I'm surprised
> that the bulk of EVers arent in the UK!!
Our petrol prices mean that my scoot'elec gets the equivalent of 1,000mpg
comparing electricity cost to fuel!
See one of the reasons why I went electric?! :-)
> What's funny is that the UK probably has more EVs on the road than the
> USA. How many thousands of electric milk floats are there?
Not that many in rural parts. I haven't seen one for years. Still used in
the cities I think.
Unfortunately I think our 'success' with electric milk floats has
permanently biased British motorists against electrics - they think all
electric vehicles top out at 15mph!
Matt
Cornwall (NOT England - but that's a whole other story! ;-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folks
This past Sunday EV Parts brought out many toys for the Earth Day
celebration in Port Townsend.
Kids of all ages were playing with their toys on the lawn :^D
Sorry, no page w/thumbnails yet, just the pics.
Thanks to Neil Richter for the great shots.
Pics average around a half meg each.
Enjoy!
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http://www.geocities.com/captob2003/image027.gif
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Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
_________________________________________________________________
From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Series parallel could work at inverter duty to eliminate need for
gearbox or give us some bottem end guts but the controller would
have to have curves for both sets of motor characteristics, even
more complicated than they already are.
Yes, but as software engineers like to point out, it's only a "little"
more complicated. And computer hardware and software is "free".
yes indeed. It depends on the quality of your software engineer.
A good one is easily 10-20x as efficient as a mediocore one...
as far as delivering robust, reusable, commercial-grade code.
I just wish they (hopefully me...) got paid 10-20x as much ;-)
Tricks like series/parallel switching are the things you do to squeeze a
little more performance out of a design. The auto company EVs didn't do
it, because they are new at the game, and don't know any better, and
don't (yet) need to squeeze more out of them. But all the big, long-time
AC traction motor drives use these tricks. Their designers have already
had decades to think about it, experiment, and work out the details.
This discussion sure has me thinging that switchable motor windings
(hi torque vs. hi speed) are a very elegant idea!
Additional switches/contactors sure seem more complex to me than
software to alter inverter parameters. I guess the grass is always
more complex on the other side of the fence.
--
Aaron Birenboim | This space available!
Albuquerque, NM |
aaron_at_birenboim.com |
>http://aaron.boim.com |
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
I've just seen the exciting trailers for the 'Sucking Amps' show, and am very proud of
my
fellow crazed EV racers for getting this up on a major channel...congrats! As one who's
been in many similar type filming sessions, I can understand all they've gone through.
I've told all my forklift mechanic friends about the show, and they'll be tuning in as
well.
Cheryl and I will be watching the show tonight with my forklift foreman at his home.
Keep
in mind, that until recently, being an avid hotrodder (he has a super clean, bright
yellow
'53 Chevy coupe I just put a sound system in), Rick has not been totally convinced EVs
can
be hip and cool. His opinion has been changing rapidly, though, as he's now seen Blue
Meanie and White Zombie. He's even asked me to enter the race car in a custom rod show
here locally, to sit alongside his '53! He's gotten himself in a pickle, too, over
talking with his other American iron hotrod buddies about cool and fast EVs, none of
which
after hearing him go on about a tricked out battery powered Datsun 1200, believe he's
of
sound mind. He's making them watch the show tonight.
Rick will more than likely be at the drag strip with us on the 30th to watch me toast
a few V8s. I'll be running with rear end setup improvements, a new electronic line-lock
for some spectacular tire ignition sequences, and 240V worth of Exides all warmed up
and
ready to rock...maybe I'll bag that elusive street legal class 100+ mph run? We will be
videoing the Zombie's runs against hot rice burners and powerful muscle cars...should
be
fun. If the 100+ mph run doesn't come, then the following weekend I'll show up with
four
more Exides and a total of 288V...that should do the trick (or, melt-down the dual 8s!)
I'm predicting this year's Woodburn and Portland International Raceway NEDRA drags
will be
some of the best electric drag racing, ever. I should have my monster motor ready for
Summer racing, Rod's talking about getting Maniac Mazda back on the track, Father Time
and
crew are getting quicker, and Rudman may have a few tricks up his sleeve, too, so the
Pacific NW EVers are on the move again!
I bet next weekend at the strip, there will be many there who will have seen the
Sucking
Amps show, so the large lettered 'Suck Amps' in the Zombie's rear window, and that
ultra-cool piston biting skull on the Zombie's doors should continue the effect.
Great job to all my EV friends involved with this exciting debut tonight...I can hardly
wait to see it!!!!
See Ya ...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
'Plasma Boy Racing...we blow stuff up, so you don't have to!'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 21:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I am planning on having my friend caputre it with his dvd recorder, then
> recompress to divx or xvid. if he gets it, we just have to find a
> place to put it. Is it ok for us to do that? no infringement?
>
IANAL but US copyright law does not allow you to make copies except for
a few limited purposes. (The act of recording a show is considered
making a copy) US law allows individuals limited rights to copy
materials for timeshifting and personal use. (The Betamax decision is
the primary reference here)
You are not permitted to redistribute the materials. Technically
recording a show onto a VHS tape and "loaning" it to a friend is not
allowed. Posting to the Internet is a definate no-no... and is
certainly not something you should discuss on a publicly archived list.
There are large legal battles underway right now, as US Copyright law
(designed in the age of printed media) struggles to handle the new world
electronic distribution. (Where making a copy costs essentially zero,
and everything requires making a copy) http://www.eff.org has much more
info for the curious.
The Discovery channel often makes copies of shows available for purchase
after first purchase. This would be the only way individuals without
cable access could legally obtain a copy.
Seems kinda silly... but there you have it.
Mark Farver
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, If I made a copy and put it on my own personal web server for my own personal
access to it from wherever I may be, I should be "safe" and post the location to the
list with the disclaimer that it is mine only. So everyone knows that it is for my own
personal use and they are not allowed to download it or view it, in case they were to
accidently or otherwise find my personal web-space...
Oh, IANAL either.
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Mark Farver
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 10:49 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: re: "sucking amps"
>
>
> On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 21:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> > I am planning on having my friend caputre it with his dvd recorder,
> > then
> > recompress to divx or xvid. if he gets it, we just have to find a
> > place to put it. Is it ok for us to do that? no infringement?
> >
>
> IANAL but US copyright law does not allow you to make copies except for a
> few limited purposes. (The act of recording a show is considered
> making a copy) US law allows individuals limited rights to copy
> materials for timeshifting and personal use. (The Betamax decision is the
> primary reference here)
>
> You are not permitted to redistribute the materials. Technically recording
> a show onto a VHS tape and "loaning" it to a friend is not allowed. Posting
> to the Internet is a definate no-no... and is certainly not something you
> should discuss on a publicly archived list.
>
> There are large legal battles underway right now, as US Copyright law
> (designed in the age of printed media) struggles to handle the new world
> electronic distribution. (Where making a copy costs essentially zero, and
> everything requires making a copy) http://www.eff.org has much more info
> for the curious.
>
> The Discovery channel often makes copies of shows available for purchase
> after first purchase. This would be the only way individuals without cable
> access could legally obtain a copy.
>
> Seems kinda silly... but there you have it.
>
> Mark Farver
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Nice opinion, but not necessarily fact.
Here is my opinion, again not necessarily fact.
Recording a copy and distributing it to your friends is covered under fair
usage. The only time that this is not the case is when you have decrypted
it for this purpose. Since the courts and lawyers and different high
powered lobbies have not been able to determine what really is and isn't OK
is this realm, I doubt we will get it figured out on this list before 10pm
tonight :-)
damon
From: Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: re: "sucking amps"
Date: 22 Apr 2004 09:48:53 -0500
On Wed, 2004-04-21 at 21:35, Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I am planning on having my friend caputre it with his dvd recorder, then
> recompress to divx or xvid. if he gets it, we just have to find a
> place to put it. Is it ok for us to do that? no infringement?
>
IANAL but US copyright law does not allow you to make copies except for
a few limited purposes. (The act of recording a show is considered
making a copy) US law allows individuals limited rights to copy
materials for timeshifting and personal use. (The Betamax decision is
the primary reference here)
You are not permitted to redistribute the materials. Technically
recording a show onto a VHS tape and "loaning" it to a friend is not
allowed. Posting to the Internet is a definate no-no... and is
certainly not something you should discuss on a publicly archived list.
There are large legal battles underway right now, as US Copyright law
(designed in the age of printed media) struggles to handle the new world
electronic distribution. (Where making a copy costs essentially zero,
and everything requires making a copy) http://www.eff.org has much more
info for the curious.
The Discovery channel often makes copies of shows available for purchase
after first purchase. This would be the only way individuals without
cable access could legally obtain a copy.
Seems kinda silly... but there you have it.
Mark Farver
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Stop worrying about overloading your inbox - get MSN Hotmail Extra Storage!
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Lee Hart wrote:
> robert fall wrote:
> > I rang Citroen and the first guy said "we don't have a
> brochure" and
> > then hung up when I asked for one! [snip]
>
> Citroen is not unique in this kind of thing. There does seem
> to be a deliberate campaign of silence and disinformation
> about EVs from the auto manufacturers.
>
> When the major manufacturers in the USA (Ford, GM, Chrysler,
> Toyota, Honda, and Nissan) were required to build EVs for
> California, I contacted all of them to see if I could
> lease/buy one in Minnesota. The answers I got were equally
> discouraging, dismissive, and even abusive.
There have been plenty of discussions over the years concerning whether
the vehement anti-EV attitudes of the major automakers are a genuine
conspiracy or just a figment of our pro-EV imaginations. There is no
question that appearances support the conspiracy theory. I can think of
no EV-related action by any automaker, even those that could arguably be
shown as an effort to promote EVs, that didn't end up putting another
nail in the EV's coffin. I've backed away from the conspiracy theory
stance slightly and proposed that it may just be all the manufacturers
coming to the same conclusions about the high risk of promoting EVs, and
behaving in similar ways.
I wonder if it's much simpler than that. Most of us here are
tech-heads. Super-zoomy new models don't do much for us unless there's
some real substance there. But for the public at large, and even for us
tech-heads to a greater degree than we'd maybe like to admit, cars are
more religion than fact. For most people the automobile is a
fundamental requirement of their existence and also a complex,
"unknowable" device. So much so that they tend to believe what suits
them and discourage, dismiss or even abusively discredit what goes
against their beliefs. To entertain the possibility that what they've
believed for so long might be wrong is just too unsettling.
Just to be clear, I'm not dissing religion here. I'm pointing out that
humans can be extremely closed-minded, and they all-too-frequently use a
popular belief system as an excuse to *stay* closed-minded. People in
general get comfort from their beliefs. Considering alternatives can
be, well, uncomfortable, so they tend not to. In general. YMMV.
Imagine being a follower of a major religion and having someone come to
church/mosque/temple/meeting/whatever and seriously suggest that Wicca
has a lot going for it. I'm sure many of the more active EVangelists
among us can relate.
Almost everyone you meet at a dealership or garage is a follower. Those
at manufacturer facilities, from regional sales offices to parts
warehouses to corporate headquarters, are devout followers or clergy or
higher. How likely is it that we will be able to change their minds?
I'm surprised the manufacturers built any EVs at all. But then, I once
read that the Vatican maintains an astronomical telescope, staffed with
Jesuit priest astronomers, who by the way tend to believe in evolution.
Go figure. I guess there are quirks in every organization. (It's an
interesting read - see
http://www.philly.com/mld/inquirer/news/special_packages/inquirer_magazi
ne/4000806.htm?1c)
A conspiracy isn't necessary to thwart a progressive movement. Religion
(closed-mindedness, actually) is all you need. When spreading the Word,
we need to be very mindful of peoples' beliefs. And not expect much
help from those who have heavily bought in to the Order of the ICE.
Chris
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There is a huge amount of aftermarket parts for H-D. They are heavy, and
don't handle well, but for an electric, the cruiser style might make more
sense anyway.
Moto Guzzi has a similar layout to BMW, but all three makes command high
prices in the resale market. The Honda Aspencade/Gold Wing/Valkyrie uses a
fore-and-aft engine layout like Guzzi and BMW, with a shaft drive.
You can't possibly feed more power into a bike chassis with electric (and
have any range) than with current sportbike motors, so I wouldn't worry at
all about strength and reliability.
I think I'd vote for H-D based on the availability of customizer parts. For
usability, I'd vote for a giant scooter like a Suzuki Burgman or a used
Honda Helix. Talk a walk through your local motorcycle junkyard, too.
HTH
John
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
So far as I have found the two that I know of so far
that are easy to use as an electric conversion is the
BMW. It uses a dry clutch much like a car. And the
Harley Davidson. It has a separate transmission with
the clutch attached and can be driven by a belt. This
it probably the simplest to use and is beefy enough
for any motor you can put on it. Let me know if
anybody knows of other bikes that have tranny's that
would work.
Gadget
John P. Fisher at home
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
WSMC # 682
Team Motosaurus, sponsored by:
Sport Cycle Pacific http://sportcyclepacific.com/
Moto Guzzi sales; service on all European bikes
DataRacer www.dataRACER.com
lap timers & data logging for racers
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[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> I think I can get a lot of gear donated. I will put 5-7k into
> transforming it. I want as much range as humanly possible. I will tear
> out the back seats, the spare tire, and all weight reduction I can
> undertake. I will bore holes where I can and cut metal and put the
> lightest weight wheels on I can find.
$5,000-$7,000 is enough for a reasonably good EV conversion, but it
won't buy any superbatteries. You'll have to stay with lead-acid
batteries, and a series motor and controller. For example, a set of AGM
batteries is $2000, an ADC 9" motor $1500, 100-amp 'Zilla controller
$1800, $1000 for a charger, and $500 for miscellaneous contactors, wire,
instrumentation, etc.
How much weight you can save is an unknown. There might be as much as
1,000 pounds of "stuff" that you could get by without if you put it on a
drastic diet (as if you were turning it into a race car). But you might
not find what was left to be a very comfortable car to drive.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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John Fisher wrote:
> There is a huge amount of aftermarket parts for H-D. They are
> heavy, and
> don't handle well, but for an electric, the cruiser style
> might make more
> sense anyway.
> Moto Guzzi has a similar layout to BMW, but all three makes
> command high
> prices in the resale market. The Honda Aspencade/Gold
> Wing/Valkyrie uses a
> fore-and-aft engine layout like Guzzi and BMW, with a shaft drive.
There are some dry-clutch Ducatis as well. Very pricey.
> You can't possibly feed more power into a bike chassis with
> electric (and
> have any range) than with current sportbike motors, so I
> wouldn't worry at
> all about strength and reliability.
Umm, you have to distinguish between power and torque. It's really easy
to get Way More Torque in an EM than it had as an ICE. Then again,
traction will limit how much torque you can apply. Even with increased
weight, a motorcycle gearbox is probably plenty strong. Get into big
slicks and it's a different story.
> I think I'd vote for H-D based on the availability of
> customizer parts. For
> usability, I'd vote for a giant scooter like a Suzuki Burgman
> or a used
> Honda Helix. Talk a walk through your local motorcycle
> junkyard, too. HTH John
I'm not ready to accept that an EM *must* be a low-performance or short
range EV. If you start with something very light, or better yet build
your own frame (not really too difficult for some on this list), I think
you can get a really nice all-around bike. Decent range, decent
performance (easily as good as most performance cars) and decent
handling. It will likely be a bit heavy as bikes go, but concentrating
the weight can work wonders in minimizing its effects on handling.
I'd still like to convert an older BMW. They were very light for their
GVWR, big and comfortable, and there are plenty of mods available to
make one into anything from a sportbike to a tourer. The K series looks
even better, if the converted bike is as light as the older /5, /6 and
/7 promise to be. Rev, what's the final weight of your EMW?
Chris
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Your site has already exceeded it's bandwidth limit.
If you would like, you can upload them to my site via FTP.
FTP site: ftp.casadelgato.com
FTP account: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
PW: evcars
Files will be visible at http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/
At 07:01 AM 4/22/2004, you wrote:
Howdy Folks
This past Sunday EV Parts brought out many toys for the Earth Day
celebration in Port Townsend.
Kids of all ages were playing with their toys on the lawn :^D
Sorry, no page w/thumbnails yet, just the pics.
Thanks to Neil Richter for the great shots.
Pics average around a half meg each.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Lee Hart wrote:
> How much weight you can save is an unknown. There might be as
> much as 1,000 pounds of "stuff" that you could get by without
> if you put it on a drastic diet (as if you were turning it
> into a race car). But you might not find what was left to be
> a very comfortable car to drive.
Small-scale "quick hit" weight reduction can be fairly easy depending on
what you have to deal with. Drastic weight reduction while maintaining
original functionality is Very Hard in general. Not likely to happen on
this budget.
Chris
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Sigh, that was supposed to be off-list...
At 09:01 AM 4/22/2004, you wrote:
Your site has already exceeded it's bandwidth limit.
If you would like, you can upload them to my site via FTP.
FTP site: ftp.casadelgato.com
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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Looking at Chris's options...
Option 1: Use a single string of YT's or orbitals, as Chris has suggested.
Hawker's specs say the height of the 26 ah genesis EP model Chris is
currently using is almost exactly 5", and Chris said that without the
plastic piece that provides compression, he had 1/2" of clearance over the
battery tops.
I have never seen the prizm battery box firsthand, so I will further assume
from the "clamshell" description that it has 2 pieces that connect around
the middle via a bolted flange.
The smallest dimension of an optima YT (or exide orbital with doctored
plastic per John W.'s information) is 6.8 inches (YT spec). If the
clamshell could be attached with longer bolts, you could install some
batteries in there on their sides (be sure the vent(s) is towards the top!).
You would have to lower the box bottom by (6.8 - 5.5) = 1.3 inches. You
would need to replace the plastic spacer with a 1/8" thick sheet of rubber
(available at McMaster-Carr). The best idea for the open gap around the
clamshell would be to make a spacer to fill the gap, probably out of wood.
Dave Luiz had several YT's on their sides in his 192V ranger. I don't know
how well they fared compared to the rest of them, but my impression was that
his problems were first with the controller and now the motor, and not the
batteries. Perhaps he'll chime in.
Chris didn't get back with us yet on the actual measurement for his current
clearance, but he stated it was 3" lower than the lowest part of the frame.
With this option, he needs to be comfortable with the clearance he gets
after lowering the box bottom by an additional 1.3 inches. Some batteries
would still need to be mounted elsewhere, but not as many. You would still
need to regulate/monitor them, especially if you had blocks in different
locations.
Option 1.5: Place the YT's or Orbitals vertically under the car, but remove
the clamshell box and make a new rack/box to eke out additional space. The
bottom would still be lower than the current pack.
Option 2: Switch the Hawkers to act as separate strings, with a regulator
for each battery. You would have to add a switch or a set of contactors to
select between strings, and charge the strings separately. This allows you
to keep your current battery arrangement, though you would have to cut out
pockets in the plastic spacer to accommodate the regulators. Inconvenient?
Yes, but better than a wholesale pack replacement complete with making new
battery racks.
Option 3: Switch to a single string of Power-Sonic PS-12550 12V, 55 Ahr AGM
batteries with regulators and monitoring(http://www.power-sonic.com/). This
is like using the YT's, except the power sonics have a minimum dimension of
*5.45 inches*! So you can keep the box unchanged by laying them on the
side! The disadvantages? First, you would probably still have to mount
some elsewhere, just as you would if you used YT's. Therefore each battery
would need a temp. compensating regulator like Rudman regs, (again, just
like the YT option). Second, these batteries, while having most of the
usual AGM advantages, are not designed for high current. I have had
discussions with their engineers, who seemed pretty open and honest, and
willing to work with you. They have a pretty good cycle life, and they will
deliver high currents. However, they have a higher Peukert number and
internal resistance than YT's. this may not matter in this case, though,
since Chris is limited to 200-some-odd amps max, and usually draws less than
100. Chris, you might also want to look at their 70 and 75 ah models.
Any other ideas?
David Brandt
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