EV Digest 3482
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Battricide was(Min clearances)
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: series parallel AC
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV's in the UK
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC inverter question
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Motorcycle transmission
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motorcycle transmission
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) to night on Discovery Time Zones
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) re: "sucking amps"
by JD & Heather <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Motorcycle transmission
by John Fisher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: to night on Discovery Time Zones
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: to night on Discovery Time Zones
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: EV's in the UK
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Motorcycle transmission
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: to night on Discovery Time Zones
by "Harris, Lawrence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Battricide was(Min clearances)
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Electric motorcycles
by "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) remove, unsubscribe
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: EV digest 3481
by Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV's in the UK
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) 2-phase -- 3-phase
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: EV's in the UK
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Take no Offense, but it's battricide, not suicide. Your killing your batteries, not yourself.
Excellent point. I do tend to personalize disaster; will have to work on
that aspect of my personality :-)
Second;
Have you tried to drill and fill your batteries?
No. But to be honest I'll try anything for a laugh. I did try filling a
pair of dynasty batteries (12-370)'s once. The first one I filled till I
could see water at the top of the plates. That um. did not work since
the battery would overheat instaed of getting past 12 volts. Lots of
fizzle. The second one I just put a bit in each hole and the battery
still works.
So how much water should one fill with? An eyedropper? A gallon jug?
What should one use to seal the hole with afterwards, and how bad is
plastic bits in the battery? Do I have to drill 6 holes, or just one in
the battery? Does it particularly matter where?
Hawkers are 21 pound AGM batteries.
Thanks!
Chris
Stay Charged!
but not overcharged
Hump
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Chris Zach
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 11:06 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Min clearances
I'm glad you haven't given up on it.
No, I've had a good pout and cry, and will be replacing the pack.
The more I look at my telemetry logs the more I am sure that going to
the IUI charge algorythm blew the pack. It's ok; this was a learning
experience. But trying to run at pack at an average of 15 vpb at 10 amp
charge rate is simple suicide. Even with regulators, it's suicide.
I'm going to reprogram the MC to go back to it's factory setting. I have
it somewhere, but I think it was CV to 350 volts, then CC to 375 volts
with a charge limit current of 1 amp or so. That way the pack can bulk
up quickly, but when the pack hits 14 vpb (and some are at 15) the
current is dropped way way back.
The batteries are bulged as well. It was not undercharged....
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Aaron Birenboim wrote:
> This discussion sure has me thinking that switchable motor windings
> (hi torque vs. hi speed) are a very elegant idea! Additional
> switches/contactors sure seem more complex to me than software to
> alter inverter parameters. I guess the grass is always more complex
> on the other side of the fence.
I think you are going to have contactors between the motor and
controller anyway. If you don't, then a short in the inverter
transistors can LOCK UP the motor! This could easily cause an accident.
My view is that as sophisticated as our present AC drives seem, they are
really still early in their development cycle. I think of them like
automobile engines in the 1960's. Compared to engines in the 1930's,
engines in the 1960's were far more powerful, smoother, more reliable,
and yet still pretty straightforward and simple in design and
construction. But the 1990's, engines had improved still more. They were
even smoother, quieter, and more reliable; but had also made drastic
reductions in fuel usage and emissions. But to get these improvements,
they had also gotten drastically more complicated and inscrutible.
A simple, elegant, straightforward solution only works as long as the
problem is also fairly straightforward. As a technology evolves, they
keep crowding in more and more odd requirements, which require adding on
more and more odd parts to deal with them. Products become encrusted
with peculiar gadgets. The solutions become so inscrutible and
specialized that they are beyond understanding by anyone but the teams
of experts that produced them.
We *are* at this point with car engines. We aren't even close to
reaching this point with electric motors and controllers.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If we could get even a couple of these vehicles into the UK with a sign
> on the side saying "This is an electric car. Want to learn more? Visit
> www.evuk.co.uk" or something like that then I think that would really
> get the ball rolling in the UK.
Who runs that site incidentally? Anyone on-list?
Sorry for dropping in half way through this thread,
for another EV choice try Reliant (reliantpartsworld.co.uk). They have a range
of electric utility vehicles, not sure if they're any more useful than the
Reva/G-Wiz that's already been mentioned.
On another subject, SCI is launching a newly built "Earthship" in Scotland this
August. We plan to have a "green day" to accompany the launch, and I'll be
showing off my electric car. I'll have to write to the BVS to see if anyone
else is interested, but if there's anyone within range who wants to come and
represent the cause, that would be good.
www.sci-scotland.org.uk
Thanks
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried it with a cap to the third phase for delay, about 28uF per HP, AC
run oil type.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rod Hower" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 6:33 PM
Subject: AC inverter question
> Since I design AC inverters I should know the answer,
> but I never tried this.
> What would happen if I connected 2 output phases of
> a 3 phase AC induction control to a 2 phase AC
> induction motor? Would this work? If not could
> I put an inductor on the 3rd phase output?.
> Thanks,
> Rod
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried a Helix. Lot a work. Gave up. The 4H club of Davis has it. I
don't know if they got it to work. Lawrence Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Fisher" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:29 AM
Subject: re: Motorcycle transmission
> There is a huge amount of aftermarket parts for H-D. They are heavy, and
> don't handle well, but for an electric, the cruiser style might make more
> sense anyway.
> Moto Guzzi has a similar layout to BMW, but all three makes command high
> prices in the resale market. The Honda Aspencade/Gold Wing/Valkyrie uses
a
> fore-and-aft engine layout like Guzzi and BMW, with a shaft drive.
>
> You can't possibly feed more power into a bike chassis with electric (and
> have any range) than with current sportbike motors, so I wouldn't worry at
> all about strength and reliability.
> I think I'd vote for H-D based on the availability of customizer parts.
For
> usability, I'd vote for a giant scooter like a Suzuki Burgman or a used
> Honda Helix. Talk a walk through your local motorcycle junkyard, too.
> HTH
> John
>
> >Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 17:39:58 -0700 (PDT)
> >From: Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >So far as I have found the two that I know of so far
> >that are easy to use as an electric conversion is the
> >BMW. It uses a dry clutch much like a car. And the
> >Harley Davidson. It has a separate transmission with
> >the clutch attached and can be driven by a belt. This
> >it probably the simplest to use and is beefy enough
> >for any motor you can put on it. Let me know if
> >anybody knows of other bikes that have tranny's that
> >would work.
> >
> > Gadget
>
> John P. Fisher at home
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> WSMC # 682
> Team Motosaurus, sponsored by:
> Sport Cycle Pacific http://sportcyclepacific.com/
> Moto Guzzi sales; service on all European bikes
> DataRacer www.dataRACER.com
> lap timers & data logging for racers
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadgets EMW is a very good example of a motorcycle conversion.
However it is hard to beat a Lectra glider. It can easily hold 250 pounds
of batteries and weighs around 470 pounds with an A89 which is somewhat
heavy, controller charger & of course the batteries. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 8:54 AM
Subject: RE: Motorcycle transmission
> John Fisher wrote:
>
> > There is a huge amount of aftermarket parts for H-D. They are
> > heavy, and
> > don't handle well, but for an electric, the cruiser style
> > might make more
> > sense anyway.
> > Moto Guzzi has a similar layout to BMW, but all three makes
> > command high
> > prices in the resale market. The Honda Aspencade/Gold
> > Wing/Valkyrie uses a
> > fore-and-aft engine layout like Guzzi and BMW, with a shaft drive.
>
> There are some dry-clutch Ducatis as well. Very pricey.
>
> > You can't possibly feed more power into a bike chassis with
> > electric (and
> > have any range) than with current sportbike motors, so I
> > wouldn't worry at
> > all about strength and reliability.
>
> Umm, you have to distinguish between power and torque. It's really easy
> to get Way More Torque in an EM than it had as an ICE. Then again,
> traction will limit how much torque you can apply. Even with increased
> weight, a motorcycle gearbox is probably plenty strong. Get into big
> slicks and it's a different story.
>
> > I think I'd vote for H-D based on the availability of
> > customizer parts. For
> > usability, I'd vote for a giant scooter like a Suzuki Burgman
> > or a used
> > Honda Helix. Talk a walk through your local motorcycle
> > junkyard, too. HTH John
>
> I'm not ready to accept that an EM *must* be a low-performance or short
> range EV. If you start with something very light, or better yet build
> your own frame (not really too difficult for some on this list), I think
> you can get a really nice all-around bike. Decent range, decent
> performance (easily as good as most performance cars) and decent
> handling. It will likely be a bit heavy as bikes go, but concentrating
> the weight can work wonders in minimizing its effects on handling.
>
> I'd still like to convert an older BMW. They were very light for their
> GVWR, big and comfortable, and there are plenty of mods available to
> make one into anything from a sportbike to a tourer. The K series looks
> even better, if the converted bike is as light as the older /5, /6 and
> /7 promise to be. Rev, what's the final weight of your EMW?
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you say "10pm" is that E.S.T. or Pacific Time? What time is it on for
the separate time zones?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lightning Ryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 9:49 PM
Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" tomorrow night on Discovery
> I to hope to have a digital copy, and a taped copy for backup.
> I'll post it as soon as I have it ready, maybe on friday.
> I'll host your small .mp4 version aswell, send it over.
> (You'll probably have it ready before me)
>
> L8r
> Ryan
>
> Matthew Muelver wrote:
> > On Apr 21, 2004, at 6:34 PM, Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
> >
> >> Is anyone planning to grab this in mpeg format? I'll be happy to host
> >> it for
> >> the list, but I have no cable and hence can't see it myself. ;-(
> >>
> >> S.
> >
> >
> > I've got my DVR (EyeTV on my PowerMac) set to record it. I can rip it
> > to a small .mp4 and send it to someone, but I don't have the web space
> > to host it.
> >
> > Later,
> >
> > Matt Muelver
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > --
> > Honda Insight '01 Monte Carlo Blue
> > Honda CR-V '98 Jet Black
> > Apple Dual 1GHz PowerMac G4
> > Apple iBook 12.1" 800MHz
> > Kyocera 7135 Smartphone on Verizon
> > Custom Audio Adapters! Use standard stereo headphones on your 7135!
> > <http://www.geocities.com/nokmout/adapter.html>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark wrote:
The Discovery channel often makes copies of shows available for purchase
after first purchase. This would be the only way individuals without
cable access could legally obtain a copy.
Seems kinda silly... but there you have it.
I think copying and posting the show would be a bad idea even if it were legal. The Discovery channel does indeed offer all it's shows on DVD and VHS. My guess is that they probably take show copy sales in consideration when deciding whether to continue to develop it as a series. I think it would be in the best interest of everyone on the list and EVs in general for everyone on the list that can afford to do so to go ahead and buy a copy of Sucking Amps. Hell, buy more than one to give as gifts this Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanza, whatever. My 2 cents.
John David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> You can't possibly feed more power into a bike chassis with
> electric (and
> have any range) than with current sportbike motors, so I
> wouldn't worry at
> all about strength and reliability.
Umm, you have to distinguish between power and torque. It's really easy
to get Way More Torque in an EM than it had as an ICE.
sure if you want a dragster, he sounded like he wanted some range.
I'm not ready to accept that an EM *must* be a low-performance or short
range EV. If you start with something very light, or better yet build
your own frame (not really too difficult for some on this list), I think
you can get a really nice all-around bike. Decent range, decent
performance (easily as good as most performance cars) and decent
handling. It will likely be a bit heavy as bikes go, but concentrating
the weight can work wonders in minimizing its effects on handling.
all this depends on your definition of performance. If you want to match a
basic Harley, you've got 650-700 lbs total vehicle weight, 125 mile range,
and about 60-80 ft-lbs of torque to generate. My Beemer has about 60
ft-lbs and weighs around 500 lbs. My superstock race bike has about 30
ft-lbs and weighs about 400 lbs. At the extreme end of the scale, a 125 gp
racer weighs 185 lbs (! I am not kidding) and has 35+ hp. The quick calcs
for the sprint racer I want to build, run 350 lbs total weight, about 20
miles range, and 50 hp. BTW Bill Dube says this is achievable with Li-ion
batteries and regeneration, if I start with a gp 250 chassis at 225 lbs.
PS, Building your own frame will never work, unless you've done it before,
or you are a serious designer/welder/machinist willing to do the physics.
Bikes are much more difficult to design than cars. If you did want to build
your own there are guys who do, and I can direct you to them. IMHO its a
waste of time when the junkyard is full of good stuff.
good luck
John
John P. Fisher at home
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey John,
Those trailers are pretty cool. I caught it on video and have been playing
it over several times because if you blink, you'll miss something. They sure
did put a lot in, in such a short amount of time.
I have my "Gone Postal" T-shirt on and ready to go out in the EV and pick up
some pop corn for tonight's debut.
Good job Roderick and Suck Amps crew!! I've been telling people about the
show and will be putting in my vote.
Have a good racing season John!! Keep crunching those pistons.
Chip Gribben,
NEDRA Webmaster
http://www.nedra.com
On 4/22/04 12:25 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:41:34 -0800
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
>
> Hello to All,
>
> I've just seen the exciting trailers for the 'Sucking Amps' show, and am very
> proud of my
> fellow crazed EV racers for getting this up on a major channel...congrats! As
> one who's
> been in many similar type filming sessions, I can understand all they've gone
> through.
> I've told all my forklift mechanic friends about the show, and they'll be
> tuning in as well.
>
> Cheryl and I will be watching the show tonight with my forklift foreman at his
> home. Keep
> in mind, that until recently, being an avid hotrodder (he has a super clean,
> bright yellow
> '53 Chevy coupe I just put a sound system in), Rick has not been totally
> convinced EVs can
> be hip and cool. His opinion has been changing rapidly, though, as he's now
> seen Blue
> Meanie and White Zombie. He's even asked me to enter the race car in a custom
> rod show
> here locally, to sit alongside his '53! He's gotten himself in a pickle, too,
> over
> talking with his other American iron hotrod buddies about cool and fast EVs,
> none of which
> after hearing him go on about a tricked out battery powered Datsun 1200,
> believe he's of
> sound mind. He's making them watch the show tonight.
>
> Rick will more than likely be at the drag strip with us on the 30th to watch
> me toast
> a few V8s. I'll be running with rear end setup improvements, a new electronic
> line-lock
> for some spectacular tire ignition sequences, and 240V worth of Exides all
> warmed up and
> ready to rock...maybe I'll bag that elusive street legal class 100+ mph run?
> We will be
> videoing the Zombie's runs against hot rice burners and powerful muscle
> cars...should be
> fun. If the 100+ mph run doesn't come, then the following weekend I'll show up
> with four
> more Exides and a total of 288V...that should do the trick (or, melt-down the
> dual 8s!)
>
> I'm predicting this year's Woodburn and Portland International Raceway NEDRA
> drags will be
> some of the best electric drag racing, ever. I should have my monster motor
> ready for
> Summer racing, Rod's talking about getting Maniac Mazda back on the track,
> Father Time and
> crew are getting quicker, and Rudman may have a few tricks up his sleeve, too,
> so the
> Pacific NW EVers are on the move again!
>
> I bet next weekend at the strip, there will be many there who will have seen
> the Sucking
> Amps show, so the large lettered 'Suck Amps' in the Zombie's rear window, and
> that
> ultra-cool piston biting skull on the Zombie's doors should continue the
> effect.
>
> Great job to all my EV friends involved with this exciting debut tonight...I
> can hardly
> wait to see it!!!!
>
> See Ya ...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
> 'Plasma Boy Racing...we blow stuff up, so you don't have to!'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:14 -0400, Mark Hanson wrote:
> When you say "10pm" is that E.S.T. or Pacific Time?
Yes. It is at 10pm on Discovery and Discovery Pacific.
That would be 9pm Central.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This can't be right. 10PM pacific would be 12PM Central.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie Borntreger
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:14 -0400, Mark Hanson wrote:
> When you say "10pm" is that E.S.T. or Pacific Time?
Yes. It is at 10pm on Discovery and Discovery Pacific.
That would be 9pm Central.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why do you say there's no charging infrastructure in GB except caravan
parks. Why can't you just plug the car in anywhere? Unlike us in the
US, your grid is 220v.
Marc
Th!nk City driver till 8/04
San Francisco CA
On Apr 22, 2004, at 5:59 AM, Matt Trevaskis wrote:
Robert,
See, I told you even getting a brochure is difficult!! When I got one
from
my local dealer he had to fish it out of the back of a cupboard and
blow the
dust off it - seriously!!
It's stupid but Citroen CANNOT sell you the van with a seat already
(retro)fitted because the vehicle then wouldn't be "type approved".
You
_could_ fit a genuine Berlingo rear seat with difficulty, since it
involves
chopping the floor to fit anchorage points. And to buy the seat frame,
cushions and covers etc. is over GBP1,000 - I know because I've
checked!
You could get them from a wrecked one at a breaker's yard... Probably
better to get an aftermarket one fitted from a company that does
minibus
conversions etc.
Windows - you can't fit the genuine rear windows from the Berlingo car
(nice
pop out ones) because the side panels are different :-( In France it
can be
ordered with fixed side windows so you SHOULD be able to do the same
here,
but I don't think that Citroen UK will (yes, they are all made in the
same
factory in Vigo, Spain but why should that make it sensible?!)
The batteries WERE on a lease scheme up until a year or two ago. They
probably haven't sold one since (if at all!) so don't realise that it's
changed. I think that the change was prompted by the way the EST
calculate
their grants, so Citroen changed to take advantage of it!
You shouldn't have difficulty replacing the batteries - they are made
by a
company called Saft and are used in most of the European EVs on the
market.
There are 27 individual "monoblocs" in the Berlingo costing about
200-250
quid each. I've got similar batteries in my scooter (but only 3 of
them!)
but the Berlingo uses water-cooled ones as opposed to air-cooled. Life
expectancy will vary with how you treat them, but five years before you
notice a drop in range is probably fair. Check what the warranty on
the
batteries is like - with the Peugeot scooter it is for 4 years.
The Renault Kangoo hybrid is probably the most practical and developed
EV on
the road in Europe today, using an AC motor giving much better
efficiency
than the Berlingo. It has the same 60 mile pure EV-mode range as the
electric-only mode using 22 of the air-cooled Saft batteriesl, with a
petrol
range extender to boost the range to 125-ish miles, circumventing the
problem of virtually no public charging infrastructure in the UK,
apart from
caravan parks!
There is at least one in the country apparently, which I'm hoping to
get to
see and drive soon. Probably only available in LHD, bought directly
from
France. The range extender adds about GBP2,500 onto the price tag of
around
GBP15,000. If you want a brochure (in English) phone Renault France on
00800 220 240 16 (International toll-free). Even though they produce
the
brochure in English, Renault UK don't sell the car...
I agree about raising EV's profile - something that I've been trying
to do
down here in Cornwall for the past few years. I take my scooter
around to
shows whenever I can - it generates a lot of interest. I even rode it
105
miles (round trip) to go to a 'green fair' last summer which proves the
range topic isn't really an issue!
Yes, I could be interested in co-authoring something to further the
cause!
Matt
From: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:32:49 +0100
To: "'Matt Trevaskis'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: EV's in the UK
Hi Matt,
Thanks, that's great. Have you seen this;
http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/b/blingo3.htm
It gives a good summary of the specs.
I rang Citroen and the first guy said "we don't have a brochure" and
then hung up when I asked for one!
When I rang them back the next lady was much more helpful. She took
all
my details and said she would arrange a test drive.
I rang again as I realised I'd forgot to ask if I could have a back
seat
fitted, and the next guy I spoke to said this would be possible but
I'd
have to get it done privately and that the extra weight would reduce
the
range.
Then the dealer rang and said that Citroen were talking rubbish, that
they didn't have an electic van in their fleet, and that the batteries
would be on lease. When I said I'd have to ring back Citroen to check
where else I could buy one, he started to become a little more helpful
and said he'd look into it and ring me back. I'll let you know how I
get
on.
Citroen told me the battery life would be about five years. Do you
think
it would be very difficult to get a replacement battery after this
time?
I've faxed citroen to ask, since the last time I rang they put me on
hold.
I think that what we need to do in the UK is to try and get EV's more
available. EV's need to raise their public profile and thus raise
demand. Most people just don't know that EV's even exist.
How would you feel about the idea of co-writing an article about EV's
and seeing how many local papers, car magazines, student papers,
websites etc that we can get it on to. Even if our focus was just on
one
model (like the Berlingo) maybe we could start of a bit of a snowball
that would stimulate the market. OK, maybe I'm getting a bit carried
away, but seriously, how about having a stab at co-authoring an
article?
Robert
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Fisher wrote:
> all this depends on your definition of performance.
Yes, getting our definitions straight is certainly a good idea. I'm not
talking about sportbike performance. I'm talking about good all-around
performance, perhaps on par with a 400-500cc commuter bike. Certainly
not exciting to a sportbike rider, but freaky-fast compared to most cars
on the street. I think (not sure, it's been awhile) that your typical
500cc commuter bike does the 1/4 mile almost as quickly as Wayland's
White Zombie.
> If you want to match a basic Harley,
Ugh. Not my idea of a good model, but I'm biased against Harleys.
We'll use it as a baseline here.
> you've got 650-700 lbs total vehicle weight,
Yeah, I don't like the idea of anything but "dry" batteries in an EM. I
don't want to be sliding around in a pool of electrolyte. That means it
won't be light.
> 125 mile range,
I doubt this will happen on an EM if it must also have the performance
described above. Maybe 50-60 miles?
> and about 60-80 ft-lbs of torque to generate.
Way too easy. But then it also depends on where that torque is. That's
why I favor a gearbox rather than direct drive (along with much better
motor efficiency). And an over-volted motor, like an A89 or K91 running
at 144-156 V. And a Z1k - you won't find more juice in a smaller
package.
<snip>
> PS, Building your own frame will never work, unless you've
> done it before,
> or you are a serious designer/welder/machinist willing to do
> the physics.
> Bikes are much more difficult to design than cars. If you did
> want to build
> your own there are guys who do, and I can direct you to them.
> IMHO its a
> waste of time when the junkyard is full of good stuff.
> good luck
Well, I have to differ here. I've worked a fair amount with both cars
and bikes. Relatively speaking a bike is a piece of cake. All I said
was that there are people on this list for whom it would be reasonably
easy. For a top-notch EM, the junkyard won't do you much good except
for minor bits. Production bikes are generally way too porky, even the
sport bikes. And it's widely accepted that when talking about cars, a
properly done purpose-built vehicle will be far better than a
conversion. Motorcycles are so compact and finely focused that I
believe this concept applies even more strongly to them. Reverend
Gadget has what seems to be a pretty impressive EM. He made his own
frame.
I recently saw a bare frame/swingarm for a Suzuki GS500 (one of my
candidates for an EM conversion kit) on eBay that weighed 55 pounds.
I'm confident that a frame/swingarm designed to mount 200-300 lbs. of
batteries, motor, etc., etc. could be made from scratch that weighs
maybe half that. And be stronger. And put everything in more
advantageous places than you could easily do on a conversion.
It seems hard at first. When you really look at it, building from
scratch is easier in the long run. If you try to stick with stock stuff
you will be severely limited in what you can do, or end up modifying it
tremendously. Generally speaking, that is. I'd still like to try
converting an old BMW.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Depends on which feed Central is getting 10 Eastern is 9 Central but check
you local daylight savings time too. I think they should eliminate time
zones and daylight saving time :-) I miss more shows because of that.
Oh, and for those of us north of the 49th parallel let us know how it goes.
Discovery.ca has not picked up the show yet and it's not on the grid for the
next few months in any event. I for one would love to see a discreet mpeg4
version if it comes to pass.
Thanks, Lawrence
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: April 22, 2004 11:15 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: to night on Discovery Time Zones
This can't be right. 10PM pacific would be 12PM Central.
-----Original Message-----
From: Lonnie Borntreger
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 13:14 -0400, Mark Hanson wrote:
> When you say "10pm" is that E.S.T. or Pacific Time?
Yes. It is at 10pm on Discovery and Discovery Pacific.
That would be 9pm Central.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Have you tried to drill and fill your batteries?
Christopher Zach wrote:
> So how much water should one fill with? An eyedropper? A gallon jug?
> What should one use to seal the hole with afterwards, and how bad is
> plastic bits in the battery? Do I have to drill 6 holes, or just one
> in the battery? Does it particularly matter where?
> Hawkers are 21 pound AGM batteries.
Ideally, you would weigh the battery when new, and write its tare weight
on each one. Then later, you can tell if they've lost weight how much
water needs to be added.
Now, all you can do is look up the "stock" weight, and use that as your
reference. This is not as accurate, but certainly if you find a battery
that is 8 ounces lighter than the rest, you can be sure it's due to
water loss.
You probably need one hole per cell. Water in AGMs and gelcells isn't
really free to move between them.
On some batteries, you can pull off the seals and pry out the vent caps.
If you have a known bad battery, you can take it apart to see exactly
how to get the caps off and/or where to drill the holes.
Of course, this is all playing with dead bodies. Success is not very
likely, but after all, they're dead anyway.
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Every time that EM thread comes around all the people "in the know" say that
it's just not possible to build an EM with reasonable performance (i.e.
capable of 55 or so) and good range (round trip range of more than 40
miles).
I know that part of this is aerodynamics and the fact that when you get over
about 30mph you spend more energy pushing the wind out of the way than
actually moving the motorcycle.
Someone once said that a custom faring could cut these losses down
dramatically. What I got to wondering is exactly how hard is it to make a
custom faring. Say I have just built a simple street bike using a golf cart
or e-tek motor and a transmission of some kind.
Further stipulate that I have a max speed of say 55 or 60 mph and a range of
25 miles. How much difference would a custom faring make and what would I
have to do to make one?
Are there people on list who know how to do this?
James
PS. I'm not building an EM yet, but I'd love to own one.
James F. Jarrett
Information Systems Associate
Charlotte Country Day School
(704)943-4562
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand
things that won't work. - Thomas Alva Edison
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
remove, unsubscribe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland! Are you out there? I've been trying your e-mail but no
reply, left a few messages on your phone. You're probably in the garage
modifying your own or other folks' cars. I'd appreciate a call or e-mail:
jerry.mcintireATcomcast.net (replace AT with symbol), or 866-0565.
Jerry McIntire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brian,
Yep, the opposite of the Prius - you are SUPPOSED to plug it in! I read
somewhere that Renault expect the range extender to be used 5% of the time,
though not sure if that means 5% of journeys, or 5% on a mileage basis. It
is primarily an ELECTRIC vehicle, with a 500cc (motorcycle) engine driving
two 6kW alternators to supplement the batteries to reduce the load on them.
But you can't actually recharge the batteries from the extender i.e. leave
it stationary running the extender to recharge them, so still need to find a
supply on marathon journeys.
I like that you don't sacrifice and battery capacity to include the range
extender - the pure EV version has a gaping hole under the bonnet where the
range extender could/should be!
I would imagine that any Renault dealer would be able to sell you one,
especially if you're 'doing a runner' back to the UK since they wouldn't
have to necessarily have the servicing computer or technicians. Servicing
here might be a problem, but I'd be surprised if you couldn't obtain the
necessary hardware and the distilled water that you need! ;-)
You should have no problem with needing a transformer etc. Electricity
voltages have been standardised across Europe at 230V+-10% and appliances
are now supposed to be rated as such to be used anywhere. The widening of
the tolerance from 6% to 10% means that the voltage that you get out of your
sockets at home will still be around 240V as it has always been! Not
entirely sure if the same rules apply to the cars: I noticed in a Berlingo
brochure (depicting a French model presumably) that the sticker on the
charge flap said 220V 14amp but the UK one I tried said 240V 13amp...
probably exactly the same hardware though!
Money no object I'd go for the Kangoo, and live with the LHD - which might
cause problems with insurance. It isn't a UK model so you won't get
anywhere with the direct insurance companies. LHD will load the premium
too. At least the Berlingo is a UK model: but adding windows and seats will
mean it's "converted" so you hit a whole different, but equally problematic,
set of hurdles and hoops to jump through!
Renault France were really nice to deal with, in English. They OFFERED to
send me a brochure - totally contrary to the reaction you normally get from
UK dealers and head offices!
Matt
> From: "Brian McMillan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 16:22:39 +0100
> To: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: EV's in the UK
>
> Matt,
>
> Yikes! I have had some time to digest your message about the Renault
> Kangoo and found this;
>
> http://evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=582
>
> And this;
>
> http://www.renault.fr/RenaultSITe/puma/FR/PROD_FR/MEL_PROD/fr/Electrique
> _Kangoo_kan/p1.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@1258200064.1082647433@@@@&BV_EngineI
> D=ccccadclfjeeedlcfngcfkmdfkjdfnh.0&parentCar=Kangoo3
>
> It looks like exactly what I'm after. It is better than the Toyota Prius
> because you can plug it in to charge. I recon I could live with the left
> hand drive, just won't do much overtaking!
>
> Is anyone on the list from France? Anyone know where I can buy one of
> these in France? Preferably near Calais! I think I'd consider going
> over, buying one, and driving it back! I guess I'd need a transformer
> for the difference in domestic electric power over here.
>
> I wonder how difficult it would be to insure?
>
> The Leeds Citroen dealer got back to me by the way. He said that he's
> found out that they *do* have some Berlingos on their fleet and that I
> *could* test drive one. But only if I was really serious about buying
> one. I said that because I'd been told about this Kangoo, which has back
> seats already, I would look into buying one of these first and then get
> back to him if it doesn't work out.
>
> Regards,
> Brian
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
Rod Hower recently asked about running a form of 2-phase motor from a
3-phase inverter. This brings to mind the Scott-T transformer connec-
tion which may be found in most of the older electric machinery texts.
Weight makes it impractical for vehicular applications. It is bidirec-
tional and if the load is balanced, draw from the source is also balanced.
Rhett George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ok,
when gauge is at 0% you still can drive about 10 km but at reduced
speed.(50km/h max and sluggishly )
Philippe
Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 3:55 PM
Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
> Philippe,
>
> The Partner (Berlingo) that I borrowed was a demonstrator model that was
> brought down to Cornwall (far south-west UK) on a low-loader for some
> trials. They probably don't get treated very well - sitting around for
ages
> between outings, then used for a few miles before the potential buyers
panic
> and plug them in!
>
> I borrowed it for a weekend: picked it up on the Friday from the dealer
> about 22 miles away, who had forgotten to charge it so I stopped off at my
> brother's house on the way home - about 15 miles on 60mph 'freeways' and
> then 40mph single lane roads. Full charge Friday and Saturday nights and
> used it on mainly 30mph - 40mph roads over the weekend. Never did get
near
> the max range doing my usual errands! If I recall I used about 50% (by
the
> gauge) for 30 miles, so at a push 55 miles could have been squeezed out of
> it, dipping into the last 20% SOC and assuming a linear gauge (which the
> scoot'elec does NOT have!)
>
> On the Monday, returning it to the dealer I gave it the 'speed' test and
> drove it flat out all the way back... returned it with about 40% SOC
showing
> (after 22 miles) so I reckoned that a 30 mile one-way 'at speed' trip
would
> be the most I would want to attempt comfortably!
>
> Like you suggest, treating the batteries nicely can make a big difference
to
> their performance.
>
> Matt
>
> > From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 20:40:43 +0200
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
> >
> > Robert,
> > contact me off-list i will help you driving electric.
> > Matt, i don't understand range you indicate, all PSA (Peugeot citroen)
cars
> > i have driven were about 40 to 50 miles (heavy foot on throttle or light
> > one) range
> > 30 miles seems to me poor batterie health indication.
> > My Saxo is between 45 to 55 miles now (i make some hard discharge to 60V
it
> > produce "magic" effect on their health!)
> >
> > Philippe, from France
> >
> > 1997 Peugeot Scoot'elec 3500 miles
> > 1996 Peugeot Scoot'elec 11,000 miles
> > 2001 Citroen Saxo 9000 miles
> > Aprilia Extrema EV project in the way...i have Alltrax 72V450A
controller,
> > 50ah Saft aircraft nicad, 60V Lemco motor...still looking for time :^(
> >
> > Et si le pot d'�chappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Matt Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, April 21, 2004 3:33 PM
> > Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
> >
> >
> >> ,
> >>
> >> Probably the easiest vehicle to obtain and maintain is the Citroen
> > Berlingo
> >> electrique, which is only available as the commercial (van) version -
> >> Citroen don't make the Berlingo car version with the electric drive.
> >> Top speed is about 60mph and max range is claimed to be 59 miles which
at
> >> 30mph is about right I would say, but at higher speed driving (e.g.
dual
> >> carriageways) expect more like 30 miles. Any Citroen commercial dealer
> >> should be able to get hold of it, but they need to have a mechanic
trained
> >> to service it. You may need to be persistent, even to get a brochure!
> >>
> >> I borrowed one for a weekend (actually the Peugeot Partner equivalent)
and
> >> the range at lower speeds seems accurate. Nice drive. Still thinking
of
> >> buying one.
> >>
> >> Citroen changed the pricing structure - they used to lease the
batteries
> > at
> >> GBP74+VAT per month, but now sell them with the van, pushing the price
up
> > to
> >> about GBP14,500 - but you can get a Powershift grant from the Energy
> > Savings
> >> Trust which knocks a few grand off that, and then no ongoing costs for
> >> leasing :-)
> >>
> >> The Peugeot 106 electrique is/was available as both a car and van but
> > really
> >> only to fleets. You can hop on a ferry and buy one in France though,
> > albeit
> >> with LHD! Quoted range is lower at 50 miles (so real world between 25
and
> >> 40 I would guess)
> >>
> >> The electric versions of the Citroen Saxo, Renault Kangoo and Fiat
> > Seicento
> >> never made it across/under the Channel so I wouldn't even consider
> > importing
> >> one for the problematic servicing and parts availability.
> >>
> >> I don't know of a UK-based list, but would be interested too.
> >>
> >> Matt (Cornwall)
> >> 1999 Peugeot Scoot'elec 13,000 miles
> >>
> >>> From: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:51:58 +0100
> >>> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>> Subject: EV's in the UK
> >>>
> >>> Hello,
> >>>
> >>> I have just joined the list. I do not currently own an electric
vehicle,
> >>> but I am very keen to learn where I might obtain one.
> >>>
> >>> Getting hold of an electric vehicle in the UK is very difficult. The
> >>> only one I can find is at www.goingreen.co.uk but it has a prohibitive
> >>> top speed (40 miles per hour (about 65 kmph)) and range (again 40
> >>> miles).
> >>>
> >>> I was ideally looking for one with a top speed of about 55mph (about
> >>> 90kmph) and a range of 50 miles (80km) or so.
> >>>
> >>> Does anyone know;
> >>>
> >>> 1. Where or how I might go about getting an electric vehicle in the UK
> >>> 2. If there is a UK-based EV discussion list?
> >>>
> >>> Thank you in advance,
> >>> Robert
> >>>
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
