EV Digest 3484
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Sucking Amps on Discovery Channel
by Lonnie Borntreger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Sucking Amps
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Motorcycle transmission
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) OT: Disposable cars
by Brad Waddell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric motorcycles/Range record attempt.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Motorcycle transmission
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric motorcycles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) terrific tv
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Sucking Amps on Discovery Channel
by "Jim Waite" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Buying questions: Soleq EV
by Seth <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) EV on Ebay no reserve
by "Andrea Bachus Kohler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Electric motorcycles/Range record attempt.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV's in the UK
by Matt Trevaskis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) contacting discovery channel
by fred whitridge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fw: Program Suggestion
by "bobrice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV panels
by "Peter Eckhoff" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 2004-04-22 at 20:25 -0700, Bruce EVangel Parmenter wrote:
> Original Airdate: April 22, 2004.
> Future Airings:
> Sucking Amps, DSC Apr 22 10:00pm
> Sucking Amps, DSC Apr 25 10:00am
It's going to be on again tonight at 1AM.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got the whole family to watch. Great show.
hope Discovery makes a series out of ev's
like Monster Garage.
Kevs
http://dsc.discovery.com/schedule/episode.jsp?episode=0&cpi=24461&gid=0
>
>
> Sucking Amps.
>
> airing (eastern time):
> � Apr 22 2004 @ 10:00 PM
> � Apr 23 2004 @ 01:00 AM
> � Apr 25 2004 @ 01:00 PM
>
>
> Meet the speed-hungry, rubber-burning,
> adrenaline-pumped electro-nerds reinventing the
> electric car. These
> backyard engineers believe they can achieve the goal
> that has eluded
> eco-freaks for decades�making electric cars a sexy
> consumer item.
>
>
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't know the Reverend made his own frame. I thought it was a BMW
conversion. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:19 AM
Subject: RE: Motorcycle transmission
> John Fisher wrote:
>
> > all this depends on your definition of performance.
>
> Yes, getting our definitions straight is certainly a good idea. I'm not
> talking about sportbike performance. I'm talking about good all-around
> performance, perhaps on par with a 400-500cc commuter bike. Certainly
> not exciting to a sportbike rider, but freaky-fast compared to most cars
> on the street. I think (not sure, it's been awhile) that your typical
> 500cc commuter bike does the 1/4 mile almost as quickly as Wayland's
> White Zombie.
>
> > If you want to match a basic Harley,
>
> Ugh. Not my idea of a good model, but I'm biased against Harleys.
> We'll use it as a baseline here.
>
> > you've got 650-700 lbs total vehicle weight,
>
> Yeah, I don't like the idea of anything but "dry" batteries in an EM. I
> don't want to be sliding around in a pool of electrolyte. That means it
> won't be light.
>
> > 125 mile range,
>
> I doubt this will happen on an EM if it must also have the performance
> described above. Maybe 50-60 miles?
>
> > and about 60-80 ft-lbs of torque to generate.
>
> Way too easy. But then it also depends on where that torque is. That's
> why I favor a gearbox rather than direct drive (along with much better
> motor efficiency). And an over-volted motor, like an A89 or K91 running
> at 144-156 V. And a Z1k - you won't find more juice in a smaller
> package.
>
> <snip>
>
> > PS, Building your own frame will never work, unless you've
> > done it before,
> > or you are a serious designer/welder/machinist willing to do
> > the physics.
> > Bikes are much more difficult to design than cars. If you did
> > want to build
> > your own there are guys who do, and I can direct you to them.
> > IMHO its a
> > waste of time when the junkyard is full of good stuff.
> > good luck
>
> Well, I have to differ here. I've worked a fair amount with both cars
> and bikes. Relatively speaking a bike is a piece of cake. All I said
> was that there are people on this list for whom it would be reasonably
> easy. For a top-notch EM, the junkyard won't do you much good except
> for minor bits. Production bikes are generally way too porky, even the
> sport bikes. And it's widely accepted that when talking about cars, a
> properly done purpose-built vehicle will be far better than a
> conversion. Motorcycles are so compact and finely focused that I
> believe this concept applies even more strongly to them. Reverend
> Gadget has what seems to be a pretty impressive EM. He made his own
> frame.
>
> I recently saw a bare frame/swingarm for a Suzuki GS500 (one of my
> candidates for an EM conversion kit) on eBay that weighed 55 pounds.
> I'm confident that a frame/swingarm designed to mount 200-300 lbs. of
> batteries, motor, etc., etc. could be made from scratch that weighs
> maybe half that. And be stronger. And put everything in more
> advantageous places than you could easily do on a conversion.
>
> It seems hard at first. When you really look at it, building from
> scratch is easier in the long run. If you try to stick with stock stuff
> you will be severely limited in what you can do, or end up modifying it
> tremendously. Generally speaking, that is. I'd still like to try
> converting an old BMW.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This interesting article about disposable cars may interest those in this
group trying to create reliable cars that last forever.
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0419/p13s02-wmgn.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A custom faring on a sit up bike will draw 3 hp at 60mph getting an ICE bike
300 to 500 mpg. If that is translated into an electric bike with 250 pounds
of lead lets say 125 miles. Maybe more if it was a recumbent because it
only draws 2hp as in a Cedric Lynch design. Nobody seems to be doing this
except the electrathon people. I intend to sponsor Deafscooter in an
attempt to break distance records with a Lectra frame and a Vetter/Rifle
Streamliner faring. We could save some weight using an Etek instead of an
A89. Gain more range using 6 Panasonic advanced lead acid bringing it up to
maybe 200 miles and maybe 250 with NiMH batteries. Anybody want in. I
provide the Glider(already a running motorcycle)and Faring. I might
provide an A89 and or 1221 or 1205 depending on the motor. We will go 72v
almost for sure. Deafscooter will drive. Has anybody done the math to see
if my estimates are correct? I guess it is how long a 250 pound pack of
batteries can put out 3hp. Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:55 AM
Subject: Electric motorcycles
> Every time that EM thread comes around all the people "in the know" say
that
> it's just not possible to build an EM with reasonable performance (i.e.
> capable of 55 or so) and good range (round trip range of more than 40
> miles).
>
> I know that part of this is aerodynamics and the fact that when you get
over
> about 30mph you spend more energy pushing the wind out of the way than
> actually moving the motorcycle.
>
> Someone once said that a custom faring could cut these losses down
> dramatically. What I got to wondering is exactly how hard is it to make a
> custom faring. Say I have just built a simple street bike using a golf
cart
> or e-tek motor and a transmission of some kind.
>
> Further stipulate that I have a max speed of say 55 or 60 mph and a range
of
> 25 miles. How much difference would a custom faring make and what would I
> have to do to make one?
>
> Are there people on list who know how to do this?
>
> James
>
> PS. I'm not building an EM yet, but I'd love to own one.
>
> James F. Jarrett
> Information Systems Associate
> Charlotte Country Day School
> (704)943-4562
> http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
> http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
>
> Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several thousand
> things that won't work. - Thomas Alva Edison
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I reworked the frame to fit the batteries, but this
bike is only a test mule. I will be building a bike
from the ground up from what learn from this one. the
next version will be lower and use a three phase
synchronous AC motor with regen for traction.
Gadget
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I didn't know the Reverend made his own frame. I
> thought it was a BMW
> conversion. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:19 AM
> Subject: RE: Motorcycle transmission
>
>
> > John Fisher wrote:
> >
> > > all this depends on your definition of
> performance.
> >
> > Yes, getting our definitions straight is certainly
> a good idea. I'm not
> > talking about sportbike performance. I'm talking
> about good all-around
> > performance, perhaps on par with a 400-500cc
> commuter bike. Certainly
> > not exciting to a sportbike rider, but freaky-fast
> compared to most cars
> > on the street. I think (not sure, it's been
> awhile) that your typical
> > 500cc commuter bike does the 1/4 mile almost as
> quickly as Wayland's
> > White Zombie.
> >
> > > If you want to match a basic Harley,
> >
> > Ugh. Not my idea of a good model, but I'm biased
> against Harleys.
> > We'll use it as a baseline here.
> >
> > > you've got 650-700 lbs total vehicle weight,
> >
> > Yeah, I don't like the idea of anything but "dry"
> batteries in an EM. I
> > don't want to be sliding around in a pool of
> electrolyte. That means it
> > won't be light.
> >
> > > 125 mile range,
> >
> > I doubt this will happen on an EM if it must also
> have the performance
> > described above. Maybe 50-60 miles?
> >
> > > and about 60-80 ft-lbs of torque to generate.
> >
> > Way too easy. But then it also depends on where
> that torque is. That's
> > why I favor a gearbox rather than direct drive
> (along with much better
> > motor efficiency). And an over-volted motor, like
> an A89 or K91 running
> > at 144-156 V. And a Z1k - you won't find more
> juice in a smaller
> > package.
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > PS, Building your own frame will never work,
> unless you've
> > > done it before,
> > > or you are a serious designer/welder/machinist
> willing to do
> > > the physics.
> > > Bikes are much more difficult to design than
> cars. If you did
> > > want to build
> > > your own there are guys who do, and I can direct
> you to them.
> > > IMHO its a
> > > waste of time when the junkyard is full of good
> stuff.
> > > good luck
> >
> > Well, I have to differ here. I've worked a fair
> amount with both cars
> > and bikes. Relatively speaking a bike is a piece
> of cake. All I said
> > was that there are people on this list for whom it
> would be reasonably
> > easy. For a top-notch EM, the junkyard won't do
> you much good except
> > for minor bits. Production bikes are generally
> way too porky, even the
> > sport bikes. And it's widely accepted that when
> talking about cars, a
> > properly done purpose-built vehicle will be far
> better than a
> > conversion. Motorcycles are so compact and finely
> focused that I
> > believe this concept applies even more strongly to
> them. Reverend
> > Gadget has what seems to be a pretty impressive
> EM. He made his own
> > frame.
> >
> > I recently saw a bare frame/swingarm for a Suzuki
> GS500 (one of my
> > candidates for an EM conversion kit) on eBay that
> weighed 55 pounds.
> > I'm confident that a frame/swingarm designed to
> mount 200-300 lbs. of
> > batteries, motor, etc., etc. could be made from
> scratch that weighs
> > maybe half that. And be stronger. And put
> everything in more
> > advantageous places than you could easily do on a
> conversion.
> >
> > It seems hard at first. When you really look at
> it, building from
> > scratch is easier in the long run. If you try to
> stick with stock stuff
> > you will be severely limited in what you can do,
> or end up modifying it
> > tremendously. Generally speaking, that is. I'd
> still like to try
> > converting an old BMW.
> >
> > Chris
> >
>
=====
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok another thing I don't understand. I thought the neck was changed 5% to
have better low speed handling. The Lectra neck is raked too much according
to EMB at the time. Scott Cronk got your ears on? What is the real answer.
Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Electric motorcycles
> James, this is something I gave some thought to a while back as I also
would
> like a EMC and although I have a couple Lectra project bikes I didnt think
> the original Lectra wheels were large enough, the overall size of the bike
> would make me feel like I was riding a mini-bike. Anyway, what about
> building a decent performing EMC with whatever battery pack will fit
> comfortably and then build a "BattHack" sidecar with a range extending
> battery pack built into or under the floor? Rod Wilde and I discussed this
> years ago when I mentioned to him that I have a Honda 360 with a small
> sidecar but I really wanted to do a larger bike if I was going to go to
the
> effort to build somethingthe motivation and time . I tend to agree with
> Lawrence Rhodes that the Lectra frame is hard to beat for size and batt
> placement. It is back burnered right now due to lack of T&M but I have
> acquired a pair of 17" or 18" mags for my Lectra glider for when I do get
to
> do a street cycle. I plan to head down to the local cycle wreckers to find
a
> longer front end and bits and will probably end up building an extended
> swingarm to accomodate the larger wheel. BTW, if you ever acquire one of
the
> Lectra frames that were in the clearing out sale at EMB, be forewarned
that
> they had a very upright neck angle that would not necessarily be optimum
for
> higher speed street riding. I believe this was fixed in the later
production
> bikes. I plan to rake the neck on mine when I get to it. David Chapman.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 1:54 PM
> Subject: RE: Electric motorcycles
>
>
> > The reason for all this speculating is, as I have said before, I will be
> > moving in a month or so (maybe longer if I can finagle it). I'll be
> living
> > about 35-40 miles from work and the roads I'll drive on to get here are
> > rural (paved), somewhat hilly (very hilly in one area) and have speed
> limits
> > between 45 and "whatever you can get away with in the backwoods".
> >
> > I have lost the war of charging at work, I know that. But after a
little
> > snooping I have been told that if I drove a motorcycle, I could park it
in
> > the little area behind the plant operations building where there is
> charging
> > for several golf carts.
> >
> > So to use it as a "fair weather commuter" I need a bike with about a
> 50mile
> > range that can cruise about 55 or 60 (I'm a coward, don't want much more
> > than that) and can charge from a 110 outlet in less than 8 hours.
> >
> > I'm pretty sure It can be done, but it gets a damned sight harder when
you
> > realize I weigh just shy of 300 lbs.
> >
> > James
> >
> > James F. Jarrett
> > Information Systems Associate
> > Charlotte Country Day School
> > (704)943-4562
> > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
> > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
> >
> > Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results. I know several
thousand
> > things that won't work. - Thomas Alva Edison
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Behalf Of Chris Tromley
> > > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 4:18 PM
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: RE: Electric motorcycles
> > >
> > >
> > > James Jarrett wrote:
> > >
> > > > Every time that EM thread comes around all the people "in the
> > > > know" say that it's just not possible to build an EM with
> > > > reasonable performance (i.e. capable of 55 or so) and good
> > > > range (round trip range of more than 40 miles).
> > >
> > > In my opinion, 55 mph is not adequate performance for an EM. It's OK
> > > for what I'd call a city bike, one that's used for around
> > > town, maybe on
> > > busy streets where the speeds might reach 50 mph. That's not what I
> > > consider a motorcycle.
> > >
> > > Also, speed is not performance. Much of what keeps you healthy on a
> > > motorcycle is power. When you whack the throttle open you
> > > squirt from a
> > > danger area to your escape. Most car drivers have no idea
> > > what kind of
> > > acceleration is available with a motorcycle, or how important
> > > it is for
> > > your safety.
> > >
> > > If you limit yourself to urban use, range becomes much easier to get.
> > >
> > > > I know that part of this is aerodynamics and the fact that
> > > > when you get over about 30mph you spend more energy pushing
> > > > the wind out of the way than actually moving the motorcycle.
> > >
> > > Aerodynamics are your biggest loss on a motorcycle. A circular
> > > cross-section is one of the worst for air resistance. A
> > > motorcycle has
> > > dozens of circular cross-section parts - frame tubes, forks, tires,
> > > handlebars, the rider's legs, arms, torso, helmet, etc.
> > >
> > > > Someone once said that a custom faring could cut these losses
> > > > down dramatically. What I got to wondering is exactly how
> > > > hard is it to make a custom faring. Say I have just built a
> > > > simple street bike using a golf cart or e-tek motor and a
> > > > transmission of some kind.
> > > >
> > > > Further stipulate that I have a max speed of say 55 or 60 mph
> > > > and a range of 25 miles. How much difference would a custom
> > > > faring make and what would I have to do to make one?
> > >
> > > Don't know, someone will have to try it. What do you mean by custom
> > > fairing? Something like a sport bike? Those won't get you much.
> > > Something more like a Land Speed Record fairing? It's important to
> > > understand that a really slippery fairing can be really inconvenient.
> > > Does it need doors to allow you to get on the bike? Or put your feet
> > > down?
> > >
> > > Another big issue is side gusts. If it's really slippery it will look
> > > like a sail from the side. That can give you handling ranging from
> > > spooky to dangerous.
> > >
> > > > Are there people on list who know how to do this?
> > >
> > > Building one isn't particularly difficult, but can take some time.
> > > Basic mold and fiberglass techniques will work. The hard part is
> > > figuring out what you want to do. And then doing it over
> > > again when you
> > > (inevitably) find what doesn't work.
> > >
> > > I believe Lawrence Rhodes has a an LSR-type fairing for a ~250cc size
> > > motorcycle (or a mold?). Lawrence, any results?
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
hey Roderick, et al
that was a terrific show; even though I already knew the details from the
list, it was still exciting... even my girlfriend got into it, and she
doesn't even drive!
congratulations are definitely due
here's hoping the series gets picked up - I really want to see Gone Postal
tear up the asphalt, and then whatever other madness you guys can churn up
in the future
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod & ALL of the Wilde Bunch Crew,
Mega Congratulations! Given the incredibly short time-frame you had to work from, you
guys and the producers pulled off
a thoroughly entertaining and thoroughly revealing story with just the right hint of
more to come.
Hopefully enough interest will be sparked in Joe Public to create a continuation of
the series.
I'm very proud of you guys and I personally give it the max 5 EV-Grins!
Jim Waite
[Here's a few other "unofficial" quotes overheard following tonight's telecast:]
Tom Hanks:
"Rita! Call the studio again and tell'em we're using Suck for the remake whether the
lawyers like it or not. Then call
Bacon again to see if he'll do the part in the Viper. And do you think it has to be
Roderick or will he be OK with just
Rod for the credits?
Jesse James:
"I kinda liked it when he said he wanted it to go over 100 just after it came off the
jacks. I'd definitely run with
these guys: anybody who hits themselves with a sledge and keeps on working is a player
in my book!."
General Motors Execs:
"Ralph, have design pull up those EV-1 plans from the vault and see what it's gonna
take to add 2 more motors. Tell the
aero guys to start testing the taller extended cab Tony sketched up, and check with
ergo to see if we can add some bunks
for the kiddies in that wasted overhead space. Oh, and be sure to make it clear we're
keeping the gas generator in the
glove-box no matter what!
George W.:
"Gosh Dick, too bad they didn't name it 'Gone Nucaler', we coulda used some clips for
next months ad campaign"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have a smart charger (eg Brusa) with the right profile
Sonnenscheins will last a very long time. If you don't, then they
won't. If you were to get the profile for a force and scale it to the
Sonnenschein, that would work. Properly charged, they will last >3x
longer than something like a Hawker. If Deka makes a smiliar battery,
it may be a cheaper equivalent to the Sonnenschein.
If you go with floodies, you have the mess and corrosion problems that
sealed batteries do not have. And you have to water them.
Seth
On Apr 22, 2004, at 11:38 PM, Jerry McIntire wrote:
Hello all,
Let fly with your opinions please. My family is very interested in a
93
Ford Escort that was an EV from day one. The Soleq corporation in
Chicago
bought gliders and put in:
Motor: 40 Kw General Electric shunt-wound DC motor�
Drivetrain: Standard Ford 5 speed transmission and clutch assembly,
uses
2nd and 3rd gears only
Controller: Soleq 40 kW separately excited DC traction control
system
Batteries: 18 Sonnenshein sealed 6 Volt
System Voltage: 108 volts
Charger: Soleq 120 VAC selectable input current limit, 30 Amp, 20
Amp,
or 16 Amp
Heater: 2 Kw electric cabin heater
DC/DC Converter: Soleq 40 Amp
Instrumentation: a) Tachometer
b) Digital volt meter,
c) Digital ampere meter
Top Speed: 85 mph
Range: Average is 40 miles (60 if driven conservatively)
Seating: 5
Weight: 4019 Pounds
My remaining questions: what is the life expectancy of the sealed
Sonnensheins compared to a Trojan T105 (I'm imagining less)? Can
something
like the T105 be installed at replacement time without major battery
rack
refabricating? How is the quality of the Soleq components: the DC/DC,
the
controller, the charger?
As you can probably guess, we are not very interested in acceleration.
We
want room for the family and maximum range (without breaking the
bank). Of
course, we'd be open to better batteries when replacement time comes if
there is a reliable supplier and significantly better energy density
and a
reasonable price available...
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
VW Rabbit 96V
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2475377701
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rod,
That was great! Little Ben liked it too, "can I suck amps when I grow up",
sure! I said. Anyway we have Murphy's law come into play if we skip the beta
testing phase also when developing a new product quickly. It would have been
neat to see the Maniac Mazda & yellow Roadster but maybe in another show. I
didn't see Bob Rickard in the tape, guess he's not in the group now. Keep
up the great work, well done! I'll buy some copies for friends. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chip Gribben" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 2:07 PM
Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
> Hey John,
>
> Those trailers are pretty cool. I caught it on video and have been playing
> it over several times because if you blink, you'll miss something. They
sure
> did put a lot in, in such a short amount of time.
>
> I have my "Gone Postal" T-shirt on and ready to go out in the EV and pick
up
> some pop corn for tonight's debut.
>
> Good job Roderick and Suck Amps crew!! I've been telling people about the
> show and will be putting in my vote.
>
> Have a good racing season John!! Keep crunching those pistons.
>
> Chip Gribben,
>
> NEDRA Webmaster
> http://www.nedra.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 4/22/04 12:25 PM, "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 06:41:34 -0800
> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
> >
> > Hello to All,
> >
> > I've just seen the exciting trailers for the 'Sucking Amps' show, and am
very
> > proud of my
> > fellow crazed EV racers for getting this up on a major
channel...congrats! As
> > one who's
> > been in many similar type filming sessions, I can understand all they've
gone
> > through.
> > I've told all my forklift mechanic friends about the show, and they'll
be
> > tuning in as well.
> >
> > Cheryl and I will be watching the show tonight with my forklift foreman
at his
> > home. Keep
> > in mind, that until recently, being an avid hotrodder (he has a super
clean,
> > bright yellow
> > '53 Chevy coupe I just put a sound system in), Rick has not been totally
> > convinced EVs can
> > be hip and cool. His opinion has been changing rapidly, though, as he's
now
> > seen Blue
> > Meanie and White Zombie. He's even asked me to enter the race car in a
custom
> > rod show
> > here locally, to sit alongside his '53! He's gotten himself in a pickle,
too,
> > over
> > talking with his other American iron hotrod buddies about cool and fast
EVs,
> > none of which
> > after hearing him go on about a tricked out battery powered Datsun 1200,
> > believe he's of
> > sound mind. He's making them watch the show tonight.
> >
> > Rick will more than likely be at the drag strip with us on the 30th to
watch
> > me toast
> > a few V8s. I'll be running with rear end setup improvements, a new
electronic
> > line-lock
> > for some spectacular tire ignition sequences, and 240V worth of Exides
all
> > warmed up and
> > ready to rock...maybe I'll bag that elusive street legal class 100+ mph
run?
> > We will be
> > videoing the Zombie's runs against hot rice burners and powerful muscle
> > cars...should be
> > fun. If the 100+ mph run doesn't come, then the following weekend I'll
show up
> > with four
> > more Exides and a total of 288V...that should do the trick (or,
melt-down the
> > dual 8s!)
> >
> > I'm predicting this year's Woodburn and Portland International Raceway
NEDRA
> > drags will be
> > some of the best electric drag racing, ever. I should have my monster
motor
> > ready for
> > Summer racing, Rod's talking about getting Maniac Mazda back on the
track,
> > Father Time and
> > crew are getting quicker, and Rudman may have a few tricks up his
sleeve, too,
> > so the
> > Pacific NW EVers are on the move again!
> >
> > I bet next weekend at the strip, there will be many there who will have
seen
> > the Sucking
> > Amps show, so the large lettered 'Suck Amps' in the Zombie's rear
window, and
> > that
> > ultra-cool piston biting skull on the Zombie's doors should continue the
> > effect.
> >
> > Great job to all my EV friends involved with this exciting debut
tonight...I
> > can hardly
> > wait to see it!!!!
> >
> > See Ya ...John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
> >
> > 'Plasma Boy Racing...we blow stuff up, so you don't have to!'
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and All,
--- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> A custom faring on a sit up bike will draw 3 hp at
> 60mph getting an ICE bike
> 300 to 500 mpg. If that is translated into an
> electric bike with 250 pounds
> of lead lets say 125 miles. Maybe more if it was a
> recumbent because it
While you can build one like this, using one in
the real world isn't healthy as it's too low to see
and be seen. Good for records though.
And hard to get out of, without enough room for
comfort, safety, groceries.
By not going to extremes, you end up safer,
easier to build and have a bike that can carry the
load. As he is a large size, weight, the bike needs to
be larger to carry him and the larger batt pack.
> only draws 2hp as in a Cedric Lynch design. Nobody
> seems to be doing this
> except the electrathon people. I intend to sponsor
How long would a Electrathon last in real road
traffic?
> Deafscooter in an
> attempt to break distance records with a Lectra
> frame and a Vetter/Rifle
> Streamliner faring. We could save some weight using
Cool!!! Can't wait to see the results.
> an Etek instead of an
> A89. Gain more range using 6 Panasonic advanced
E-Teks are not as good starting as max torque is
lower but at top speed, the torque doesn't drop like
series motors do, staying fairly flat.
Gained 15% more range with the eff E-tek and that
was without regen yet over a GE version of the A89
series motor!
> lead acid bringing it up to
> maybe 200 miles and maybe 250 with NiMH batteries.
AGM's have 15% LESS range, cap than regular
floodeds for their weight. Not what I would pick for
long range contest.
Li-ion beats NiMH in cost, range by a good amount.
> Anybody want in. I
> provide the Glider(already a running motorcycle)and
> Faring. I might
> provide an A89 and or 1221 or 1205 depending on the
A sevcon 4qd PM controller will let you program a
lot better accel ramps, ect, high eff and regen if
it's done on regular roads, hills.
You are limited to 48vdc but so is the e-tek and
at 9 hp cont and 19hp peak, it easily has the power
you need. You may be able to go higher for a drag race
but not for a distance run.
> motor. We will go 72v
> almost for sure. Deafscooter will drive. Has
> anybody done the math to see
> if my estimates are correct? I guess it is how long
> a 250 pound pack of
> batteries can put out 3hp.
That depends on batt, temp, driver weight, AGM
or not.
T105's are rated at about 900 wt/hrs/batt at 75
amps so 250 lbs would have about 4kw/hr cap at say 60
amps. That's 2.5 hrs+ at 60 amps but for racing you
can discharge them a lot deeper that we normally do if
well balanced. It's very bad to do this to AGM's as
they reverse cells are easier due to starved
electrolyte which is what reduces cap in them.
Heating the batts would give you more also. I'd
go for 4- 60-66 lb 12v Deep Cycle floodeds like
Trojans or US batt for longest range at the weight you
need. Seal the batt box well to keep electrolyte
contained in case of a crash.
Cycle them 25 or so times to build up their cap
gaining 10% more range and several times right before
the race would give you another 5-10%. YMMV!!!!
Anyone know what a 48vdc nom pack of 180-200
amp/hr
li-ions would weigh, cost, peak amps and real world
output would be?
Maybe you could borrow some for the attempt.
You could probably carry 2 of these packs for
well over 250 miles at 60 mph conservatively. Maybe
over 350 miles depending on how low Wt/hr/mile your
drag is!!!
If you can get down to 33wt/hr/mile drag, not
impossible, a single pack may get you 300 miles.
Needless to say, YMMV.
1 pack would do James well also and lower his
bike size, weight.
HTH's,
jerry dycus
Lawrence Rhodes.......
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:55 AM
> Subject: Electric motorcycles
>
>
> > Every time that EM thread comes around all the
> people "in the know" say
> that
> > it's just not possible to build an EM with
> reasonable performance (i.e.
> > capable of 55 or so) and good range (round trip
> range of more than 40
> > miles).
> >
> > I know that part of this is aerodynamics and the
> fact that when you get
> over
> > about 30mph you spend more energy pushing the wind
> out of the way than
> > actually moving the motorcycle.
> >
> > Someone once said that a custom faring could cut
> these losses down
> > dramatically. What I got to wondering is exactly
> how hard is it to make a
> > custom faring. Say I have just built a simple
> street bike using a golf
> cart
> > or e-tek motor and a transmission of some kind.
> >
> > Further stipulate that I have a max speed of say
> 55 or 60 mph and a range
> of
> > 25 miles. How much difference would a custom
> faring make and what would I
> > have to do to make one?
> >
> > Are there people on list who know how to do this?
> >
> > James
> >
> > PS. I'm not building an EM yet, but I'd love to
> own one.
> >
> > James F. Jarrett
> > Information Systems Associate
> > Charlotte Country Day School
> > (704)943-4562
> > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
> > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
> >
> > Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results.
> I know several thousand
> > things that won't work. - Thomas Alva Edison
> >
>
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Here's the best way to describe last night's viewing of the show:
Rick (my forklift foreman): "You actually, know these guys?"
Me: "I'm afraid so..."
Cheryl: "They do this stuff at our house!"
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
John Wayland wrote:
> ...Cheryl and I will be watching the show tonight with my forklift foreman at his
> home...He's
> gotten himself in a pickle, too, over
> talking with his other American iron hotrod buddies about cool and fast EVs, none of
> which
> believe he's of
> sound mind. He's making them watch the show tonight.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Marc,
Agreed, our grid being 230-240V single-phase (or 400-415V three-phase) means
that home and opportunity charging is a lot easier and quicker, but the only
really accessible outlets for Joe Public are caravan (RV) parks! If I
attempt a long journey I arrange with caravan parks to use one of their
hook-ups. There are only a few publicly accessible socket outlets
specifically for EVs, mostly in London - 350 miles from me!
Matt
1999 Peugeot Scoot'elec 13,000 miles
(0-95% in 2 hours from 240V!)
> From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 11:19:07 -0700
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: EV's in the UK
>
> Why do you say there's no charging infrastructure in GB except caravan
> parks. Why can't you just plug the car in anywhere? Unlike us in the
> US, your grid is 220v.
>
> Marc
> Th!nk City driver till 8/04
> San Francisco CA
>
>
> On Apr 22, 2004, at 5:59 AM, Matt Trevaskis wrote:
>
>> Robert,
>>
>> See, I told you even getting a brochure is difficult!! When I got one
>> from
>> my local dealer he had to fish it out of the back of a cupboard and
>> blow the
>> dust off it - seriously!!
>>
>> It's stupid but Citroen CANNOT sell you the van with a seat already
>> (retro)fitted because the vehicle then wouldn't be "type approved".
>> You
>> _could_ fit a genuine Berlingo rear seat with difficulty, since it
>> involves
>> chopping the floor to fit anchorage points. And to buy the seat frame,
>> cushions and covers etc. is over GBP1,000 - I know because I've
>> checked!
>> You could get them from a wrecked one at a breaker's yard... Probably
>> better to get an aftermarket one fitted from a company that does
>> minibus
>> conversions etc.
>>
>> Windows - you can't fit the genuine rear windows from the Berlingo car
>> (nice
>> pop out ones) because the side panels are different :-( In France it
>> can be
>> ordered with fixed side windows so you SHOULD be able to do the same
>> here,
>> but I don't think that Citroen UK will (yes, they are all made in the
>> same
>> factory in Vigo, Spain but why should that make it sensible?!)
>>
>> The batteries WERE on a lease scheme up until a year or two ago. They
>> probably haven't sold one since (if at all!) so don't realise that it's
>> changed. I think that the change was prompted by the way the EST
>> calculate
>> their grants, so Citroen changed to take advantage of it!
>>
>> You shouldn't have difficulty replacing the batteries - they are made
>> by a
>> company called Saft and are used in most of the European EVs on the
>> market.
>> There are 27 individual "monoblocs" in the Berlingo costing about
>> 200-250
>> quid each. I've got similar batteries in my scooter (but only 3 of
>> them!)
>> but the Berlingo uses water-cooled ones as opposed to air-cooled. Life
>> expectancy will vary with how you treat them, but five years before you
>> notice a drop in range is probably fair. Check what the warranty on
>> the
>> batteries is like - with the Peugeot scooter it is for 4 years.
>>
>> The Renault Kangoo hybrid is probably the most practical and developed
>> EV on
>> the road in Europe today, using an AC motor giving much better
>> efficiency
>> than the Berlingo. It has the same 60 mile pure EV-mode range as the
>> electric-only mode using 22 of the air-cooled Saft batteriesl, with a
>> petrol
>> range extender to boost the range to 125-ish miles, circumventing the
>> problem of virtually no public charging infrastructure in the UK,
>> apart from
>> caravan parks!
>>
>> There is at least one in the country apparently, which I'm hoping to
>> get to
>> see and drive soon. Probably only available in LHD, bought directly
>> from
>> France. The range extender adds about GBP2,500 onto the price tag of
>> around
>> GBP15,000. If you want a brochure (in English) phone Renault France on
>> 00800 220 240 16 (International toll-free). Even though they produce
>> the
>> brochure in English, Renault UK don't sell the car...
>>
>> I agree about raising EV's profile - something that I've been trying
>> to do
>> down here in Cornwall for the past few years. I take my scooter
>> around to
>> shows whenever I can - it generates a lot of interest. I even rode it
>> 105
>> miles (round trip) to go to a 'green fair' last summer which proves the
>> range topic isn't really an issue!
>>
>> Yes, I could be interested in co-authoring something to further the
>> cause!
>>
>> Matt
>>
>>> From: "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 15:32:49 +0100
>>> To: "'Matt Trevaskis'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: RE: EV's in the UK
>>>
>>> Hi Matt,
>>>
>>> Thanks, that's great. Have you seen this;
>>>
>>> http://www.citroen.mb.ca/citroenet/html/b/blingo3.htm
>>>
>>> It gives a good summary of the specs.
>>>
>>> I rang Citroen and the first guy said "we don't have a brochure" and
>>> then hung up when I asked for one!
>>>
>>> When I rang them back the next lady was much more helpful. She took
>>> all
>>> my details and said she would arrange a test drive.
>>>
>>> I rang again as I realised I'd forgot to ask if I could have a back
>>> seat
>>> fitted, and the next guy I spoke to said this would be possible but
>>> I'd
>>> have to get it done privately and that the extra weight would reduce
>>> the
>>> range.
>>>
>>> Then the dealer rang and said that Citroen were talking rubbish, that
>>> they didn't have an electic van in their fleet, and that the batteries
>>> would be on lease. When I said I'd have to ring back Citroen to check
>>> where else I could buy one, he started to become a little more helpful
>>> and said he'd look into it and ring me back. I'll let you know how I
>>> get
>>> on.
>>>
>>> Citroen told me the battery life would be about five years. Do you
>>> think
>>> it would be very difficult to get a replacement battery after this
>>> time?
>>> I've faxed citroen to ask, since the last time I rang they put me on
>>> hold.
>>>
>>> I think that what we need to do in the UK is to try and get EV's more
>>> available. EV's need to raise their public profile and thus raise
>>> demand. Most people just don't know that EV's even exist.
>>>
>>> How would you feel about the idea of co-writing an article about EV's
>>> and seeing how many local papers, car magazines, student papers,
>>> websites etc that we can get it on to. Even if our focus was just on
>>> one
>>> model (like the Berlingo) maybe we could start of a bit of a snowball
>>> that would stimulate the market. OK, maybe I'm getting a bit carried
>>> away, but seriously, how about having a stab at co-authoring an
>>> article?
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sucking Amps was great. Nice to see the fello who sells me EV gizmos
and the other guy who sells me regulators. I found contacting Discovery
to sing the praises of a show a bit tedious but did it via:
http://extweb.discovery.com/viewerrelations
Nice job! Great PR for EV's
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey EVerybody:
Heres the reply to my last nites note that I loved the Sucking Amps show.
Fans, keep those letters and cards coming! Let them know that We , Ampheads,
liked it. I asked where I could get a Copy, they don't say, but I betya that
they, like the History Channel, would offer it EVentually. Thanks Rod, for
the Link ya put up, to go there!
Show was pretty much EVerywhere, my kid called from FLA, " Hey Dad? Are
ya watching TV? Yur on!" Well backside, anyhow<g>! Gees! EV's on nationwide
TV! About time, now for a series!?? Bawl's in yur court, hit that link,
below, tell them what you think!
Seeya
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 10:04 AM
Subject: Program Suggestion
> Thank you for contacting Discovery Networks. We appreciate you taking the
> time to contact us.
>
> Suggestions from viewers are very important to us as our viewers can tell
> us what we can improve upon and what our audience enjoys. Viewer ideas,
> such as yours, help us create and improve programming.
>
> While we share viewer suggestions with our management and staff,
> unfortunately, due to the high volume of suggestions, we are not able to
> respond and follow up directly with you about the outcome of the review.
>
> For general information about our schedules and programming, please visit
> our website at www.discovery.com.
>
> A reply to this message is not necessary. If you have any further
> inquiries or comments, please contact us via our webform at
> http://extweb.discovery.com/ViewerRelations. Thank you again for
> expressing your interest in our programming.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Connie
> Viewer Relations
> Discovery Networks
>
>
> Join the Insiders! Subscribe now to your favorite network newsletter from
> Discovery Communications. Get previews of upcoming specials and a behind
> the scenes look at your favorite programs! It's FREE. Sign up here:
> http://www.discovery.com/newsletters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What does the acronym OCV stand for?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 22:05 PM
Subject: Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV
panels
> > If the panels are, say 30V, then producing 4A at noon
> > (at this voltage output, i.e. loaded, *NOT* 30V OCV!)
> > makes them 120W panels and the cost of OEM new one like that
> > would be $360...$480 depending on the brand.
>
> Typically you rate solar panel current capacity by dead shorting them
> with an ammeter. This will give their max current capacity, and is
> totally safe (well, until the panel produces more than 10 amps and your
> meter is rated for 10a max)
>
> 12 volt panels usually put about 19-20 volts OCV, 24 volt panels up to
> 40. This is important when sizing wires, etc.
>
> Chris
>
>
--- End Message ---
