EV Digest 3485
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV panels
by Bob Siebert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV pa
nels
by David Brandt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) EV Dash SW for Palm Pilot interface to Link10 E-meter
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Buying Questions: Soleq EVcort
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: dc/dc converter rec's for 156 volts?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: EV Dash SW for Palm Pilot interface to Link10 E-meter
by "Ed Thorpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: EV Dash SW for Palm Pilot interface to Link10 E-meter
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Send to my ReplayTV! (was Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery)
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Sucking AMPS
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by Richard Brown <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Motorcycle transmission
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) calling all UK EV'ers!
by "robert fall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Electric motorcycles/Range record attempt.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Sucking Amps on Discovery Channel
by cristin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: [Fwd: Re: Fw: Two 8" vs 1 9"...Zombie Gets a BIG motor!]
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) "Sucking Amps" was the best EV show ever!
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
by Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
It should be Voc, open circuit voltage.
/B
On Friday, April 23, 2004, at 07:39 AM, Peter Eckhoff wrote:
What does the acronym OCV stand for?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 22:05 PM
Subject: Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV
panels
If the panels are, say 30V, then producing 4A at noon
(at this voltage output, i.e. loaded, *NOT* 30V OCV!)
makes them 120W panels and the cost of OEM new one like that
would be $360...$480 depending on the brand.
Typically you rate solar panel current capacity by dead shorting them
with an ammeter. This will give their max current capacity, and is
totally safe (well, until the panel produces more than 10 amps and
your
meter is rated for 10a max)
12 volt panels usually put about 19-20 volts OCV, 24 volt panels up to
40. This is important when sizing wires, etc.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Open circuit Voltage.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Peter Eckhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 9:40 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV
> panels
>
> What does the acronym OCV stand for?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Chris Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 22:05 PM
> Subject: Re: (OT, solar) Trying to identify solar technology on used PV
> panels
>
>
> > > If the panels are, say 30V, then producing 4A at noon
> > > (at this voltage output, i.e. loaded, *NOT* 30V OCV!)
> > > makes them 120W panels and the cost of OEM new one like that
> > > would be $360...$480 depending on the brand.
> >
> > Typically you rate solar panel current capacity by dead shorting them
> > with an ammeter. This will give their max current capacity, and is
> > totally safe (well, until the panel produces more than 10 amps and your
> > meter is rated for 10a max)
> >
> > 12 volt panels usually put about 19-20 volts OCV, 24 volt panels up to
> > 40. This is important when sizing wires, etc.
> >
> > Chris
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too enjoyed the show and am a big fan of some of it's predesessors. There
were two things that bugged me however.
First, I know from following the list updates that there was a lot more
drama involved than I ever felt from the show.
Also the views they showed of Gone Postal made it seem anything but fast. I
know that it broke, but after the first run they had a quote of Rod talking
about how it took off like a bat out of... As a viewer all I saw was a
picture from behind Rod's head with the viper racing down the track while
Gone Postal seemed to be sitting still. I wish I would have had a view like
I did a couple of years ago at Woodburn with Wayland launching hard and
smoking the Viper off the line.
damon
From: John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: "Sucking Amps" Tonight on Discovery
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 05:38:05 -0800
Hello to All,
Here's the best way to describe last night's viewing of the show:
Rick (my forklift foreman): "You actually, know these guys?"
Me: "I'm afraid so..."
Cheryl: "They do this stuff at our house!"
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
John Wayland wrote:
> ...Cheryl and I will be watching the show tonight with my forklift
foreman at his home...He's
> gotten himself in a pickle, too, over
> talking with his other American iron hotrod buddies about cool and fast
EVs, none of which
> believe he's of
> sound mind. He's making them watch the show tonight.
>
_________________________________________________________________
From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is anyone successfully using Peter Ohler's EV Dash software on a Palm Pilot
to display Link10 E-meter data? EVDash pages:
http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash.html
My understanding is that it works on early Palm OS versions (up to v2.0),
but may not on later versions. I'm using a Palm M-105 w/Palm OS v3.5 and no
serial data gets displayed.
If anyone out there is successfully using EV Dash, please share the details:
Palm Pilot type, OS version, etc.
Also, if anyone has put together any other serial interface program for the
E-meter and/or ALLTRAX AXE controllers, I'd be interested. Ideally, I'm
looking to have 2 cheap Palm Pilots on my boat dashboard with one displaying
E-meter data (Vbat, Ibat, AHrs, etc.) and the other displaying AXE data
(Vmtr, Imtr, Tcntlr, etc.).
Thanks.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Jerry:
I own a '92 EVcort and though I'm in the middle of an "EV frown" with it
right now, I can give you the following appraisal:
The car itself, and all components are particularly robust and appear to be
over-engineered (which makes sense, ours weighs closer to 4600lbs.)- which
was probably due to the fact that it had to adhere to DOT and DOE safety
specs (these cars were manufactured as part of a DOE battery testing
program).
As you probably know, Soleq is now closed (my EV frown: my controller is
still inside their now closed shop, and I'm having trouble getting it back).
The good news is, with Google I found at least two places that have
experience working on Soleq products- one in Dallas, and the other in NJ.
Now, if I could just get my controller back...
Before I zorched the controller, our car was getting 30 miles per charge
from seven year old batteries. You probably want to stick with the
Sonnensheins unless you're an EE + battery box fabricator. They are the DIN
size, and the car was pretty much built around them. You definitely want to
avoid any kind of flooded batteries. I was looking at flooded ni-cads, but
Mr. Ohba, the owner of Soleq (now deceased) said that would be problematic
as the car is super sensitive to moisture contamination in the battery
boxes. If you find some way to use NM-hydride or LIon, the weight reduction
would definitely increase your range, but you would have to reprogram the
charger, and I don't know if the stock charger will do those fancy charge
algorithms.
My mistake was buying a car that I didn't know enough about to fully
evaluate before purchase. I bought mine from a guy in AZ, and I should have
known something was up when he said, "If I were you, I wouldn't even bother
with using the regen". And, I should have known something was up when on my
first drive I found the traction motor cooling fan disconnected. And then I
found the cooling fan air-flow indicator was disconnected...and on and on...
If you follow the manual, you should have no problem, i.e., keep it inside a
garage. I drove mine in the rain once, and started experiencing GF problems,
which we worked around by using jumper cables to isolate the
motor/controller from the charge circuit during charging. Motor leakage is a
fairly common cause of GF in EVs. Some people install an extra set of
contactors which open when you turn key off, and isolate motor/controller
for charging.
In a nutshell: The EVcort was ahead of it's time. Mr. Ohba built a great
product and he was very proud of it and it's exceptional service record.
I'm still searching for one of the diesel-electric hybrid camera platform
trucks he built for the movie industry. If anybody has ever seen or heard
about one, please contact me.
In light of the present situation, do I regret buying mine? Oh yeah...
It all boils down to what kind of care has it received since '93. The
goobers who had mine (some power company in CO) had a special knack for
simply disconnecting things when a problem occurred, so check everything out
really well.
Just my .02
J. Marvin Campbell
Culver City, CA
From: Jerry McIntire <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2004 20:38:09 -0700
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Buying questions: Soleq EV
Hello all,
Let fly with your opinions please. My family is very interested in a 93
Ford Escort that was an EV from day one. The Soleq corporation in Chicago
bought gliders and put in:
Motor: 40 Kw General Electric shunt-wound DC motor�
Drivetrain: Standard Ford 5 speed transmission and clutch assembly, uses
2nd and 3rd gears only
Controller: Soleq 40 kW separately excited DC traction control system
Batteries: 18 Sonnenshein sealed 6 Volt
System Voltage: 108 volts
Charger: Soleq 120 VAC selectable input current limit, 30 Amp, 20 Amp,
or 16 Amp
Heater: 2 Kw electric cabin heater
DC/DC Converter: Soleq 40 Amp
Instrumentation: a) Tachometer
b) Digital volt meter,
c) Digital ampere meter
Top Speed: 85 mph
Range: Average is 40 miles (60 if driven conservatively)
Seating: 5
Weight: 4019 Pounds
My remaining questions: what is the life expectancy of the sealed
Sonnensheins compared to a Trojan T105 (I'm imagining less)? Can something
like the T105 be installed at replacement time without major battery rack
refabricating? How is the quality of the Soleq components: the DC/DC, the
controller, the charger?
As you can probably guess, we are not very interested in acceleration. We
want room for the family and maximum range (without breaking the bank). Of
course, we'd be open to better batteries when replacement time comes if
there is a reliable supplier and significantly better energy density and a
reasonable price available...
Jerry
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
>> The Todd isn't really a DC/DC converter; it is a plain old AC
>> input power supply, optimized for battery charging.
John Wayland wrote:
> Yes, It was designed to take a 120 vac input, but as Lee and we
> all know, you can feed it pure DC, and it outputs DC... that is
> the essence of a DC-DC converter
In a casual sense, you are correct. There is a DC/DC converter inside
every power supply. However, not all DC/DC are created equal. There are
different designs, each optimized for its intended purpose.
The Todd's internal DC/DC is optimized to be powered from a rectified AC
input. If it were to have DC input ratings, they would be something like
130-180 volts DC. There is no under- or over-voltage detection
circuitry; if the voltage goes outside this range, the Todd doesn't have
the sense to give up; it will die trying.
Now, recognize that a 144vdc pack will actually range from 126-184 volts
DC (1.75-2.55 volts per cell). So, you have an invitation for failure.
A *real* DC/DC is explicitly designed and specified for DC operation. It
will have an input voltage range of at least 2:1. For example, Vicor
specifies 100-200 volts DC for their "150vdc" converters. A real DC/DC
will also have under- and over-voltage shutdown circuitry, so it won't
destroy itself if something causes the voltage to go outside this range.
Another aspect is safety. It is much harder to switch DC than AC. With
AC, the voltage drops to zero 120 times per second; this lets arcs
self-extinguish. With DC, once an arc starts it won't stop until the
parts are destroyed by fire. Thus, it is vital to have DC-rated
components and fuses, that can safely interrupt power if something goes
wrong.
Batteries can deliver nearly unlimited current. If something shorts
inside the output side of a DC/DC, thousands of amps can flow back into
the fault. Simple power supplies aren't designed to survive this safely,
but a DC/DC explicitly designed to charge a battery will.
The Todd has *no* DC-rated components, and in fact there are no fuses or
circuit breakers at all! I have seen several of them fail, and even on
AC the results aren't pretty. But when they fail when powered by DC, the
results are spectacular!
> I don't concur with the consensus about Todd unreliability. I've
> used the same Todd PC40 in Blue Meanie, now for 8 years running,
> never a failure...
Frankly, I think you have been lucky. I've had 2 out of 3 fail, and the
only reason the third one didn't fail is because I sold it first.
> For the past 6 years or so, it's been used at 156V
I think this is part of the reason. Even at 1.75v/cell, this is
136.5vdc, which is a bit above my estimated lower voltage limit for the
Todds.
Also, you happen to live in a fairly benign climate. It never gets too
cold, and never too hot. I also suspect you don't get the very high
humidity and condensation problems.
The Todds have no moisture protection whatsoever. No solder mask, and no
conformal coating on the PC boards. The enclosure isn't sealed, or even
drip-proof.
Here in Minnesota, we see -20 deg.F every winter. Snow can blow in
anywhere, getting water into places where even rain wouldn't normally
get. Summer temperatures can exceed 100 deg.F, and it gets much hotter
under the hood or inside a car in the sun. Humidity can be so high that
you get severe condensation on everything.
> Currently, there's also a second Todd DC-DC in this same car, a
> compact, fan cooled 30 amp version that Todd made up for me to try
> out. I received a total of five of these wonderful little DC-DC's
> only months before unfortunately, Todd closed their doors
> Another one of the five special little gems was put in service
> powering up my competition stereo system in my 2000 Insight.
So, you're not talking about the Todd that people can buy, but a special
one that only you have?
> A third one is used as an around-the-shop power supply, often used
> to quickly bring up a tired gas car's 12V battery
An additional concern is that the Todd isn't a battery charger; it is
basically just a fixed voltage power supply. No charging algorithm, no
temperature compensation; just a fixed voltage like any power supply.
There is a pot so you can adjust the voltage, and there is a terminal
block that you can open/short to select one of two voltages; but that
hardly constitutes a battery charger.
As a consequence, it is not uncommon to find EVs with dead accessory
batteries, even though these batteries should have led an easy, long
life. Basically, they either get undercharged because the Todd is set
too low, or overcharged because it is set to high.
> The Todds come as a ready to use product...
To be fair, my friend John is a wonderful tinkerer. He can make things
work where lesser mortals would fail. I'm sure he has added input and
output fuses for safety, and mounted the Todd where it will never get
wet or dirty, and chosen his pack voltage and drives his EV to keep the
Todd's input voltage range within reason. He has also added external
circuitry to switch the Todd's output voltage between sensible 'charge'
and 'float' voltages, to make it work as a battery charger.
> Lee talks about how the Todds are not designed for the rigors of
> a car, but then recommends a funky Vicor DC-DC module. I say 'funky'
>, because after spending $200+ for a wimpy 200 watt module
The 200-watt module is actually $156 at full retail, quantity one.
Surplus prices are $25 to $100.
> all you have is a large domino sized 'chip' device, devoid of a
> case, any type of rugged output or input terminals, no heat sink,
> nothing but the module.
Of course! That is just a component, not a complete product. Of course
you are supposed to put in on a heatsink, in a case, with input and
output fuses, etc. It's the same as buying a naked transformer or
circuit breaker or switch, etc. It's just a part that you install in
your own case.
But, the Vicor module is potted and waterproof; it will work underwater.
Vicor sells the socket for it to provide beefy easy-to-use screw
terminals. Because of their high efficiency, very small heatsinks can be
used. They are fully specified for DC use, and have internal under- and
over-voltage protection, temperature protection, short circuit
protection, and are UL listed to show that they won't start a fire if
they fail.
> To make it even 'work', you have to build your own external circuitry
In my ComutaVan, I bought two surplus Vicor modules for $30 each. I
mounted them directly to the aluminum firewall; that was all the
heatsink they needed. Each was nominally a 36vdc input (21-56vdc;
brownout at 18v, overvoltage at 60v), so I connected each one to its own
half of the 36v/36v pack. Each had its own input and output fuses and
EMI filters. The EMI filters were little cans, all pre-built. A schottky
dual diode commoned the outputs, giving me two redundant 12v sources
(I'd still have 12v even if one failed).
> There have been minor improvements in the Vicor line
"Minor", like 2.4" x 4.2" x 0.5" modules for $250 that deliver 15v at 40
amps?
> and there are some models that sort-of have ready to use features
> but these are in the $400 range
Yes, of course Vicor will sell you a complete DC/DC converter built with
their modules. They were used in a number of factory built EVs. Do you
really think $400 is too much for a high quality product specifically
designed and tested for the application?
--
"Never doubt that a small group of committed people can change the
world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has!" -- Margaret Meade
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Palm m100 and m105 work great from the get-go. I've been using both of these
models with the E-meter deluxe (serial port). You need to serial cable for
the Palm and just plug it into the RS-232 (serial) port on the back of the
E-meter. To test, have your Palm on the standard menu (regular power-on),
plug in and then launch the EVDash. Should initially display volt and amp as
0, then update to your current E-meter reading. Don't push the hotsync
button, as this is not the function for this connection.
The main limitations/concerns with EVDash are:
* Not compatible with Handspring PDAs, due to them having multiple ports.
Just written for the since serial port of the Palm.
* Need to use a plastic case Palm. Remember that the output from the E-meter
is not isolated from the pack voltage. So the Palm in a metal case (like a 5
series) could potentially case a high-voltage short if given the proper
path.
Otherwise it's wonderful and extremely adjustable.
Also look at tools on: http://www.e-m-w.com/palm/
BR,
Ed Thorpe
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Myles Twete
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 8:30 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: EV Dash SW for Palm Pilot interface to Link10 E-meter
Is anyone successfully using Peter Ohler's EV Dash software on a Palm Pilot
to display Link10 E-meter data? EVDash pages:
http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash.html
My understanding is that it works on early Palm OS versions (up to v2.0),
but may not on later versions. I'm using a Palm M-105 w/Palm OS v3.5 and no
serial data gets displayed.
If anyone out there is successfully using EV Dash, please share the details:
Palm Pilot type, OS version, etc.
Also, if anyone has put together any other serial interface program for the
E-meter and/or ALLTRAX AXE controllers, I'd be interested. Ideally, I'm
looking to have 2 cheap Palm Pilots on my boat dashboard with one displaying
E-meter data (Vbat, Ibat, AHrs, etc.) and the other displaying AXE data
(Vmtr, Imtr, Tcntlr, etc.).
Thanks.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Miles,
Here is what I got back from AllTrax in Feburaury.
Sorry what your asking for is not available at this time you'll have to
strap it to you or the bike. Jeff
-----Original Message-----
From: damon henry [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, February 23, 2004 8:58 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Controller terminal programs
Hi Jeff,
I am awaiting delivery on a new 4844 controller. I have a question
about
communicating with the controller via the serial link. I know that
there is
windows based software for setting parameters and reading guages, but
lugging a laptop around on my electric motorcycle is not going be an
option.
I was wondering if there is any engineering spec avaible so that I can
code something up to read the values through a handheld device such as a
Palm or Pocket PC.
thanks
Damon Henry
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: EV Dash SW for Palm Pilot interface to Link10 E-meter
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2004 08:29:52 -0700
Is anyone successfully using Peter Ohler's EV Dash software on a Palm Pilot
to display Link10 E-meter data? EVDash pages:
http://www.ohler.com/palm/EVDash.html
My understanding is that it works on early Palm OS versions (up to v2.0),
but may not on later versions. I'm using a Palm M-105 w/Palm OS v3.5 and
no
serial data gets displayed.
If anyone out there is successfully using EV Dash, please share the
details:
Palm Pilot type, OS version, etc.
Also, if anyone has put together any other serial interface program for the
E-meter and/or ALLTRAX AXE controllers, I'd be interested. Ideally, I'm
looking to have 2 cheap Palm Pilots on my boat dashboard with one
displaying
E-meter data (Vbat, Ibat, AHrs, etc.) and the other displaying AXE data
(Vmtr, Imtr, Tcntlr, etc.).
Thanks.
-Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
_________________________________________________________________
From must-see cities to the best beaches, plan a getaway with the Spring
Travel Guide! http://special.msn.com/local/springtravel.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I scheduled my ReplayTV to record it to find out later
that it was on premium cable. I only have basic
cable. So, I hope one of you have recorded it on your
ReplayTV. If so, could you please send it to me?
Thanks.
Ed Ang
00004-54831-44151
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25�
http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great Program Rod, Father Time, Rich, Oat, Neon, and others
Makes me WISH I still had a garage, a place to build, to create, etc.
Told all my friends, made several feedback messages to Discovery.
Good Luck on the SECOND episode !
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
LOL. Tell Cheryl I can relate. The night before a Woodburn NEDRA
event at your house with EVs everywhere in various states of
assembly 'till wee hours of the night.
Rich Brown
San Jose, CA
Dualin'7
John Wayland wrote:
****************************************************************************
Hello to All,
Here's the best way to describe last night's viewing of the show:
Rick (my forklift foreman): "You actually, know these guys?"
Me: "I'm afraid so..."
Cheryl: "They do this stuff at our house!"
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gonna sell the Mule? Lawrence Rhodes..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Reverend Gadget" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:40 PM
Subject: Re: Motorcycle transmission
> I reworked the frame to fit the batteries, but this
> bike is only a test mule. I will be building a bike
> from the ground up from what learn from this one. the
> next version will be lower and use a three phase
> synchronous AC motor with regen for traction.
>
> Gadget
>
>
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I didn't know the Reverend made his own frame. I
> > thought it was a BMW
> > conversion. Lawrence Rhodes.....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:19 AM
> > Subject: RE: Motorcycle transmission
> >
> >
> > > John Fisher wrote:
> > >
> > > > all this depends on your definition of
> > performance.
> > >
> > > Yes, getting our definitions straight is certainly
> > a good idea. I'm not
> > > talking about sportbike performance. I'm talking
> > about good all-around
> > > performance, perhaps on par with a 400-500cc
> > commuter bike. Certainly
> > > not exciting to a sportbike rider, but freaky-fast
> > compared to most cars
> > > on the street. I think (not sure, it's been
> > awhile) that your typical
> > > 500cc commuter bike does the 1/4 mile almost as
> > quickly as Wayland's
> > > White Zombie.
> > >
> > > > If you want to match a basic Harley,
> > >
> > > Ugh. Not my idea of a good model, but I'm biased
> > against Harleys.
> > > We'll use it as a baseline here.
> > >
> > > > you've got 650-700 lbs total vehicle weight,
> > >
> > > Yeah, I don't like the idea of anything but "dry"
> > batteries in an EM. I
> > > don't want to be sliding around in a pool of
> > electrolyte. That means it
> > > won't be light.
> > >
> > > > 125 mile range,
> > >
> > > I doubt this will happen on an EM if it must also
> > have the performance
> > > described above. Maybe 50-60 miles?
> > >
> > > > and about 60-80 ft-lbs of torque to generate.
> > >
> > > Way too easy. But then it also depends on where
> > that torque is. That's
> > > why I favor a gearbox rather than direct drive
> > (along with much better
> > > motor efficiency). And an over-volted motor, like
> > an A89 or K91 running
> > > at 144-156 V. And a Z1k - you won't find more
> > juice in a smaller
> > > package.
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > >
> > > > PS, Building your own frame will never work,
> > unless you've
> > > > done it before,
> > > > or you are a serious designer/welder/machinist
> > willing to do
> > > > the physics.
> > > > Bikes are much more difficult to design than
> > cars. If you did
> > > > want to build
> > > > your own there are guys who do, and I can direct
> > you to them.
> > > > IMHO its a
> > > > waste of time when the junkyard is full of good
> > stuff.
> > > > good luck
> > >
> > > Well, I have to differ here. I've worked a fair
> > amount with both cars
> > > and bikes. Relatively speaking a bike is a piece
> > of cake. All I said
> > > was that there are people on this list for whom it
> > would be reasonably
> > > easy. For a top-notch EM, the junkyard won't do
> > you much good except
> > > for minor bits. Production bikes are generally
> > way too porky, even the
> > > sport bikes. And it's widely accepted that when
> > talking about cars, a
> > > properly done purpose-built vehicle will be far
> > better than a
> > > conversion. Motorcycles are so compact and finely
> > focused that I
> > > believe this concept applies even more strongly to
> > them. Reverend
> > > Gadget has what seems to be a pretty impressive
> > EM. He made his own
> > > frame.
> > >
> > > I recently saw a bare frame/swingarm for a Suzuki
> > GS500 (one of my
> > > candidates for an EM conversion kit) on eBay that
> > weighed 55 pounds.
> > > I'm confident that a frame/swingarm designed to
> > mount 200-300 lbs. of
> > > batteries, motor, etc., etc. could be made from
> > scratch that weighs
> > > maybe half that. And be stronger. And put
> > everything in more
> > > advantageous places than you could easily do on a
> > conversion.
> > >
> > > It seems hard at first. When you really look at
> > it, building from
> > > scratch is easier in the long run. If you try to
> > stick with stock stuff
> > > you will be severely limited in what you can do,
> > or end up modifying it
> > > tremendously. Generally speaking, that is. I'd
> > still like to try
> > > converting an old BMW.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > >
> >
>
>
> =====
> visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
a friend of mine has started a UK EV discussion forum. Please pop in and
introduce yourself!
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/electriccarsUK/
Regards,
Robert
_________________________________________________________________
Tired of 56k? Get a FREE BT Broadband connection
http://www.msn.co.uk/specials/btbroadband
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
60 amps is 3hp? Wow that's more than I thought. Lawrence Rhodes. Maybe we
go recumbent. I have two Lectra wheels. One with a tire on it. Might be a
good place to start. Build from the ground up. The point is to also
introduce good aerodynamics into a street bike. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 23, 2004 6:21 AM
Subject: Re: Electric motorcycles/Range record attempt.
> Hi Lawrence and All,
> --- Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > A custom faring on a sit up bike will draw 3 hp at
> > 60mph getting an ICE bike
> > 300 to 500 mpg. If that is translated into an
> > electric bike with 250 pounds
> > of lead lets say 125 miles. Maybe more if it was a
> > recumbent because it
>
> While you can build one like this, using one in
> the real world isn't healthy as it's too low to see
> and be seen. Good for records though.
> And hard to get out of, without enough room for
> comfort, safety, groceries.
> By not going to extremes, you end up safer,
> easier to build and have a bike that can carry the
> load. As he is a large size, weight, the bike needs to
> be larger to carry him and the larger batt pack.
>
>
> > only draws 2hp as in a Cedric Lynch design. Nobody
> > seems to be doing this
> > except the electrathon people. I intend to sponsor
>
> How long would a Electrathon last in real road
> traffic?
>
>
> > Deafscooter in an
> > attempt to break distance records with a Lectra
> > frame and a Vetter/Rifle
> > Streamliner faring. We could save some weight using
>
> Cool!!! Can't wait to see the results.
>
> > an Etek instead of an
> > A89. Gain more range using 6 Panasonic advanced
> E-Teks are not as good starting as max torque is
> lower but at top speed, the torque doesn't drop like
> series motors do, staying fairly flat.
> Gained 15% more range with the eff E-tek and that
> was without regen yet over a GE version of the A89
> series motor!
>
> > lead acid bringing it up to
> > maybe 200 miles and maybe 250 with NiMH batteries.
>
> AGM's have 15% LESS range, cap than regular
> floodeds for their weight. Not what I would pick for
> long range contest.
> Li-ion beats NiMH in cost, range by a good amount.
>
> > Anybody want in. I
> > provide the Glider(already a running motorcycle)and
> > Faring. I might
> > provide an A89 and or 1221 or 1205 depending on the
> A sevcon 4qd PM controller will let you program a
> lot better accel ramps, ect, high eff and regen if
> it's done on regular roads, hills.
> You are limited to 48vdc but so is the e-tek and
> at 9 hp cont and 19hp peak, it easily has the power
> you need. You may be able to go higher for a drag race
> but not for a distance run.
>
>
> > motor. We will go 72v
> > almost for sure. Deafscooter will drive. Has
> > anybody done the math to see
> > if my estimates are correct? I guess it is how long
> > a 250 pound pack of
> > batteries can put out 3hp.
> That depends on batt, temp, driver weight, AGM
> or not.
> T105's are rated at about 900 wt/hrs/batt at 75
> amps so 250 lbs would have about 4kw/hr cap at say 60
> amps. That's 2.5 hrs+ at 60 amps but for racing you
> can discharge them a lot deeper that we normally do if
> well balanced. It's very bad to do this to AGM's as
> they reverse cells are easier due to starved
> electrolyte which is what reduces cap in them.
> Heating the batts would give you more also. I'd
> go for 4- 60-66 lb 12v Deep Cycle floodeds like
> Trojans or US batt for longest range at the weight you
> need. Seal the batt box well to keep electrolyte
> contained in case of a crash.
> Cycle them 25 or so times to build up their cap
> gaining 10% more range and several times right before
> the race would give you another 5-10%. YMMV!!!!
>
> Anyone know what a 48vdc nom pack of 180-200
> amp/hr
> li-ions would weigh, cost, peak amps and real world
> output would be?
>
> Maybe you could borrow some for the attempt.
> You could probably carry 2 of these packs for
> well over 250 miles at 60 mph conservatively. Maybe
> over 350 miles depending on how low Wt/hr/mile your
> drag is!!!
> If you can get down to 33wt/hr/mile drag, not
> impossible, a single pack may get you 300 miles.
> Needless to say, YMMV.
> 1 pack would do James well also and lower his
> bike size, weight.
> HTH's,
> jerry dycus
>
> Lawrence Rhodes.......
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "James Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Sent: Thursday, April 22, 2004 11:55 AM
> > Subject: Electric motorcycles
> >
> >
> > > Every time that EM thread comes around all the
> > people "in the know" say
> > that
> > > it's just not possible to build an EM with
> > reasonable performance (i.e.
> > > capable of 55 or so) and good range (round trip
> > range of more than 40
> > > miles).
> > >
> > > I know that part of this is aerodynamics and the
> > fact that when you get
> > over
> > > about 30mph you spend more energy pushing the wind
> > out of the way than
> > > actually moving the motorcycle.
> > >
> > > Someone once said that a custom faring could cut
> > these losses down
> > > dramatically. What I got to wondering is exactly
> > how hard is it to make a
> > > custom faring. Say I have just built a simple
> > street bike using a golf
> > cart
> > > or e-tek motor and a transmission of some kind.
> > >
> > > Further stipulate that I have a max speed of say
> > 55 or 60 mph and a range
> > of
> > > 25 miles. How much difference would a custom
> > faring make and what would I
> > > have to do to make one?
> > >
> > > Are there people on list who know how to do this?
> > >
> > > James
> > >
> > > PS. I'm not building an EM yet, but I'd love to
> > own one.
> > >
> > > James F. Jarrett
> > > Information Systems Associate
> > > Charlotte Country Day School
> > > (704)943-4562
> > > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett
> > > http://www.ccds.charlotte.nc.us/~jarrett/EV
> > >
> > > Results! Why man, I have gotten a lot of results.
> > I know several thousand
> > > things that won't work. - Thomas Alva Edison
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Photos: High-quality 4x6 digital prints for 25"
> http://photos.yahoo.com/ph/print_splash
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great show! I have already contacted Discovery to ask them to make it a
series.
I also innocently asked if there were other EV dragsters they could
show as well.
It was also very nice to finally put faces to names, and the bonus
cameo of the PFC-50.
-C
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:28 AM 4/19/2004, you wrote:
Hello to All,
"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> >Hey Bill, just curious...any reason you left White Zombie out of this
> >part?
>
> I forgot you were running series/parallel.
Ah hah! You've revealed yourself...with the myriad of posts I've done
detailing the
series/parallel setup, and with all my accounts of weekend drag racing all
over this forum
where I've talked extensively about the series/parallel setup, you must
obviously must
skip over, or God forbid, 'delete' my posts :-(
>>>>> SEE Below for what I have been doing with my time <<<<
Oops Bill, never had an SVR pack. Yes, the Hawkers at 378 lbs. were much
lighter than the
present 720 lb. pack of Orbitals...again, well covered in many of my posts.
SVRs would deliver more amps and weigh less than the Hawker pack.
Twin 384 volt strings of SVRs would deliver about 1700 amps and
would weigh less that your 216 volt, 1700 Exide string. This would boost
the HP to something close to 450 HP, compared to the 250 HP you are getting
now.
The cost of the SVRs would be something like $2000, give or take.
Likely you could swing a deal to get a discount.
> The battery pack probably has the greatest single influence on performance.
Agreed, and the real reason your bike ran in the 9's. With those amazingly
powerful and
light TMF Bolder cells, it wouldn't have made too much difference what
motor (motors) you
ran. Kudos to you, for doing all the before hand research and testing of the
batteries...great job, and proof that doing the math 'before' does pay off.
It's not the ENTIRE reason the bike ran in the nines. It runs in
the very low 11's now with a heavy pack of 26 SVRs in it. This is still
quicker and faster than any other EV bike by a large margin. It is still
faster than most ICE bikes that bracket race.
Twice as many of the 13.5 lb. Hawkers would put the pack at 756 lbs., a
little heavier
than what I am presently running, with about the same current potential,
but, yes, at a
higher voltage...would be interesting! Oh well, gotta go with my
sponsorship and do what I
can with what I've got to work with.
If your goal is to break 100 mph and 13 seconds, you must go with
the BEST batteries, not free batteries. (You also must install some sort of
BMS.)
For the price of one fancy sound system, you can break 100 mph and
13 seconds.
Though the slower time of 13.7 (@216V) isn't as
impressive as nearly 13 flat, it 'is' impressive to be able to drive back
and forth to the
track, and, to have an ~ 35-40 mile range, too.
With 700+ pounds of SVRs, you would still be able to drive to the
track, no problem.
>>>>> What I am up to these days (while looking for new batteries) <<<<<<<<<<
My new job has me running ragged. I'm working 10 hours most days.
It's fun, and rewarding, but does not leavemuch time for other things. Here
is a link to the project I am working on:
http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2004/s2190.htm
I'm designing and building instruments for both the WP3 and the
Ron Brown. Two of the instruments I have designed measure N2O5, and NO3,
important players in nighttime processing of air pollution. Another
measures aerosols using a new laser cavity ring-down spectroscopy (CaRDS)
method.
I'm also building an airplane (RV-7) in my garage.
I put NiCads in the Wabbit and I am commuting with it daily. I
just took it to a local HS and gave demo rides to several science classes.
All the students and faculty had the same question "Why doesn't everyone
drive one of these?"
I also sell LED Position Light kits for experimental aircraft.
http://www.KillaCycle.com/Lights.htm
Most importantly, I must take time to do the "preventative
maintenance" on my latest marriage. :^)
Thus, I read the subject lines on the EV list and pick a few
interesting posts to read. I don't read every word in every post.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As everyone knows that watched it, "Sucking Amps" was the best EV TV show
ever. Great stuff!
>>>>
Send me the dimensions of the drive box and I'll design a chain drive to
fit. Also, send me the dimensions of the rear drive components and I'll
tell you how much torque they will withstand. You can then set the Zilla to
a hold a motor current limit that won't break the "weakest link".
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Wayland wrote:
>
> Hello to All,
>
> Here's the best way to describe last night's viewing of the show:
>
> Rick (my forklift foreman): "You actually, know these guys?"
>
> Me: "I'm afraid so..."
>
> Cheryl: "They do this stuff at our house!"
>
> See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
> John Wayland wrote:
>
Well we didn't look too much like the fools we are...
What nobody caught was the "testing until Midnight" that Rod mentions in
passing.
At dusk the night before the track day at Vegas, they finally got the
drives to work, and then they all took off for the sights of Vegas,
Leaving me with the GP and the tow rig, and Tim, and Ken Trough. We were
to dial in the Batteries. Yea see ya Rich, have it washed and waxed and
filled for the morning. Sigh... Geek Dom.. tough work while the others
played.
Well GP Was never faster than that night in the Dark in Rich Furniss's
subdivision of Vegas. The sounds ,the insanity of 500 Hp in 3 blocks,
Can't stop it, can't turn it, Oh my God!! this SOB is fast! It just got
stiffer ,and I got braver. Nice progress. I wish the camera crew could'a
caught it, they were there, but we lost the shooting light.
It has been fast, but only for short intervels in between the break
downs. If we ever get it all to hang together for a "Full Pull clean
run" It's gonna do just fine!.
When Rod broke the 1/2 Shaft two weekends ago, It pulled rather well. We
will get it going... Have no fear about this. We or I will gets some
burn off shots, When we can afford to hammer it and not have parts fly
off.
The brutal learning curve is 6 weeks is a joke to make this kind of EV.
It takes months of effort, and serious bucks, planning and the expensive
efforts in tuning it up and breaking stuff. Without testing, and the
time to do it, and start some things over... you just won't get it done.
Now if we all could spend full time on it, and still keep our business
going, and we had some of that "Hollywood" money to buy GOOD stuff parts
and engineering, we could go places that few could follow.
Hey I am doing a show in GP in Kingston in the morning... I gotta get a
charger and a set of Regs ready for EVparts to ship, then go drive GP
for 30.7 miles... and hopfully get her here in one charge cycle. But...
gonna have my PFC30 and the Genset along in the Ranger, and Peter
following along as Shotgun rider.
It's gonna be another GP weekend.... Not much Charger production, but
fun Ev stuff. Mayber a Ev event should.... my luck not hold.
If you have questions I will be on the cell number.
--
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
www.manzanitamicro.com
1-360-297-7383,Cell 1-360-620-6266
--- End Message ---
