EV Digest 3853
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: OT: Food energy
by richard ball <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) New Toyota hybrid sportscar concept - Volta
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: FW: OT: Food energy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) Re: go Buckeyes!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Winterizing EV?
by W Bryan Andrews <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) test please ignore
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 34XCD Dimensions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EarthLink Virus Blocker: Message from EVDL Quarantined
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: OT: Food energy
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: the cost of running an EV
by "Will Bain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Ford Escape Hybrid Ads Changing Their Tune?
by Marvin Campbell <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: [RAV4-EV] Ford Escape Hybrid Ads Changing Their Tune?
by Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) vacuum pumps
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: the cost of running an EV
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: OT: Food energy
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: [RAV4-EV] Ford Escape Hybrid Ads Changing Their Tune?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) Re: the cost of running an EV
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Fwd: New ish batteries
by Derrick J Brashear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) NiZn batteries was: New ish batteries
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: the cost of running an EV
by Jon Glauser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Woodburn Stories?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) EV 'X' prize? (part 1)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) hot dang!! buckeyes do it!
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Old power plant stuff
by "Andre Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: Food energy (was: the cost of running an EV)
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
i ride my push bike 5 miles each way to work
the reason is partly for exercise (i work at a desk)
and partly due to the fact that cycling along a canal
bank is far more pleasat than driving through trafic
every morning
regarding energy use it costs far more to cycle simply
due to the fact that a £150 mountain bike is a wreck
after 6mts use so i actually end up buying a new one
every 6mts or so
i'm building an etek powered one at present though for
use in the summer (the ride home is largely uphill)
can any one help me with the battery selection for
this from previous experience rather than theory ?
weight of bike will be 50kg top speed 40mph 48V
regards
richard
--- "James F. Jarrett"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We probably have wandered too far but...
>
> When I was in college (about 1989) one of my
> professors was an AVID
> cyclist. He lived 10 miles from the school and rode
> his bike every day
> as long as the weather was nice (and this was in the
> Smoky Mountains of
> NC!)
>
> One of his students asked him why he did it, and he
> responded "its
> cheaper than driving". One of the class called
> B.S., and seeing as it
> was a math class, we decided to prove / disprove
> it. I don't have my
> notes from then, but when everything was said and
> done, *IF* he got his
> calories the cheapest way possible (I think we
> figured it at about $2.00
> per "meal" and three meals per day) it was cheaper
> to operate just about
> any automobile owned by any of the students than to
> ride the bike.
>
> He stlll rode it everyday, just gave a different
> reason when asked.
>
> James
>
> Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >>A friend of mine, has work out the amount of
> energy he takes to run his
> >>
> >>
> >bike
> >
> >
> >>1 mile.
> >>
> >>He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at
> about 1/20th the energy
> >found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but
> I don't still have my
> >work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got
> there. Perhaps someone
> >would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow'
> style back of the envalope on
> >this and announcing their results and the logic
> they used to get there?
> >
> >Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
> >
> >S.
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger -
all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thought the list might be interested in this...
http://www.toyota.com/vehicles/future/volta.html
I certainly wouldn't mind driving something like this.
Jay
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is an interesting off-topic, I'll try to swing it a little back
on-topic.
according to....
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question527.htm
it takes about 34 calories per mile for a 175lb person to bicycle 15mph on
level ground.
An original Whopper with cheese and all the toppings contains 800
calories, and costs $1.79 here.
So a Whopper can get us 23.5 miles per sandwich at 7.6 cents per mile.
So here's my spin back to ev content....
I have 3 bicycles, all cheap.
A Huffy mountain bike, a NEXT full suspension(cheap taiwanese Wal-Mart
junk (spit-tooie)), and an old ten speed road bike(Ross I think, Salvation
Army real cheap)
The Ross is a joy to ride on the roads, it is light, pedals easily and
coasts well, but I wouldn't think of taking it down my hillside trails.
Maybe it could get 23.5 miles per sandwich.
The Huffy is at least two times more difficult to pedal on the road, but
is rugged enough to ride in the wood on the trails. 12 miles per sandwich?
The NEXT I don't even consider riding on the road, I would estimate that
half of my energy goes into compressing and de-compressing the suspension
while riding the road. But in the woods and down the hill, man what a
difference, this is where the suspension really shines. 6 miles per
sandwich?
Ok, obviously I've pointed out that I can't just say(or anyone else) that
it takes a y-lb human, x-amount of calories to pedal a bicycle z-distance
at n-rate. There are many more variables to consider(wind, terrain, type
of cycle, etc.).
What I'm wondering though, I know quite few people on this list have
electrified their bicycles, (Too bad Pete's out of touch, this is his
forte')has anyone done an efficiency comparison of type of electrified
bicycle.
I may consider doing that next summer(snow is coming, gives me build
time). Electrify each of my bikes and measure the efficiency of each
design. I would still expect the Ross to excel. I expect the Huffy and the
NEXT to come closer together, because the electric drive will not have to
deal with the flexing of the suspension. They have the same type and size
of tires, and weigh about the same. In fact I would also expect the NEXT
to now be the favored ride, due to the suspension.
I'll also measure the difference between road tires vs. knobby's.
I imagine though that someone has already done most of this work.
Thoughts?
"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you are right!" --Henry Ford
Stay Charged!
Hump
>
>
> i ride my push bike 5 miles each way to work
> the reason is partly for exercise (i work at a desk)
> and partly due to the fact that cycling along a canal
> bank is far more pleasat than driving through trafic
> every morning
> regarding energy use it costs far more to cycle simply
> due to the fact that a £150 mountain bike is a wreck
> after 6mts use so i actually end up buying a new one
> every 6mts or so
> i'm building an etek powered one at present though for
> use in the summer (the ride home is largely uphill)
> can any one help me with the battery selection for
> this from previous experience rather than theory ?
> weight of bike will be 50kg top speed 40mph 48V
> regards
> richard
>
> --- "James F. Jarrett"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> We probably have wandered too far but...
>>
>> When I was in college (about 1989) one of my
>> professors was an AVID
>> cyclist. He lived 10 miles from the school and rode
>> his bike every day
>> as long as the weather was nice (and this was in the
>> Smoky Mountains of
>> NC!)
>>
>> One of his students asked him why he did it, and he
>> responded "its
>> cheaper than driving". One of the class called
>> B.S., and seeing as it
>> was a math class, we decided to prove / disprove
>> it. I don't have my
>> notes from then, but when everything was said and
>> done, *IF* he got his
>> calories the cheapest way possible (I think we
>> figured it at about $2.00
>> per "meal" and three meals per day) it was cheaper
>> to operate just about
>> any automobile owned by any of the students than to
>> ride the bike.
>>
>> He stlll rode it everyday, just gave a different
>> reason when asked.
>>
>> James
>>
>> Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >
>> >>A friend of mine, has work out the amount of
>> energy he takes to run his
>> >>
>> >>
>> >bike
>> >
>> >
>> >>1 mile.
>> >>
>> >>He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at
>> about 1/20th the energy
>> >found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but
>> I don't still have my
>> >work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got
>> there. Perhaps someone
>> >would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow'
>> style back of the envalope on
>> >this and announcing their results and the logic
>> they used to get there?
>> >
>> >Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
>> >
>> >S.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___________________________________________________________ALL-NEW Yahoo!
> Messenger - all new features - even more fun!
> http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Congratulations to the Buckeye crew! Wow, an EV ripping along at above 300
mph...incredible!!!! In addition to what is happening at the 1/4 mile drag track,
performance like this only helps to erode the misconception that EVs are slow, dull,
and
boring...not!!!!!
See Ya....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
Sam Uzi wrote:
> yeah!! ...not bad for a bunch of students!!!
>
> ---begin---
>
> Friends of the Bullet:
> Thursday was another spectacular day on the Salt.
> Perfect temperature, in the 70s, and ideal salt conditions.
> The team had the car ready at the start line for a new U.S. Record attempt
> around 3pm. The run went flawlessly, and Roger Schroer set a new ceiling
> for electric racers with a third mile clocked at 316.658 mph. The Bullet
> was "out the back door" at almost 322 mph! See the attached "speeding
> ticket" for the details. [sam: it was an attachment, so I couldn't send it to the
> EVDL list - sorry]
> The Bullet has now qualified for a new U.S. Record and has a chance to back
> up the record early tomorrow morning, when the return runs are scheduled.
> Stay tuned! Lots of pictures on http://www.roadtobonneville.com/
>
> Go Bucks! Go Faster!
>
> _________________________________________________________
> Giorgio Rizzoni
> The Ford Motor Company Chair in Electromechanical Systems
> Professor of Mechanical and Electrical Engineering
> Director, Center for Automotive Research
> The Ohio State University
> 930 Kinnear Road
> Columbus, OH 43212
>
> ---end---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This will be my first winter with my Voltsrabbit in the US Midwest.
Temperatures here will be below freezing quite a bit. The bunny will be
in an attatched garage at night, but will have no such protection at
the office during the day.
It is my understanding that the cold will shorten my range. Not being
a very handy person, I'm looking for simple modifications to partially
counteract the cold. Would wrapping some insulation around the rear
battery case help, or would this run the risk of overheating the batteries?
If I were to find some temperature-regulated battery-blanket for the
rear battery box, is it worth the effort, give than the front batteries
will still be out in the cold?
Would running a very light load on the drive batteries for a short
period bring the batteries up to temperature?
Thanks,
Bryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Testing
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bill and All,
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Wow, John, thanks so much. That's even more info than I'd hoped for. It'll
> be really helpful.
The marine blue top Orbital deep cycle costs more than the XCD version, but lacking
the irritating side terminals (thank you, GM) they are much easier to stack in an EV,
and, it doesn't help that the batteries look super cool in their blue color with red
and
black top plastic accents at the terminal areas.
It was pretty easy for me to get a dummy XCD Orbital from the regional Exide
distributor
here in Portland...weighs all of about one lb. or so. You might try to get your local
Exide warehouse to get you either an XCD or blue top marine dummy. These have the
terminals
and handles and are a real battery case, they're just empty inside and weigh next to
nothing.
It's lots easier to lift and put here and there, than a 40 lb. battery! If your
distributor can't help you with this, try calling Exide's national sales manager, tell
him you're
getting ready to buy 15-20 batteries, and I bet they'll ship you a dummy battery! Oh
yeah....and
tell him you got all excited over Exide batteries because of White Zombie and Gone
Postal...battery
sponsors love to hear they got their money's worth, both from having their product in
world record holding machines, and, in new battery sales. Your fellow EV drag racers
can
keep pushing the limits with battery manufacturer's help!
See Ya......John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought the EVDL had a system to remove a virus as it came in? Now I'll
have to read this digest of files on the Yahoo archive!
>Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:40:18 -0700 (PDT)
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: EarthLink Customer Support Team <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: EarthLink Virus Blocker: Message from "Electric Vehicle
>Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Quarantined
>
>**************************************
>EARTHLINK VIRUS BLOCKER MESSAGE STATUS
>**************************************
>
>MESSAGE QUARANTINED
>
>Virus Detected: Malformed container violation
>
>Message Details:
> From: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: EV digest 3852
> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:31:48 PDT
>
>
>EarthLink Virus Blocker has quarantined a message sent to
>you because it contains a virus that cannot be removed or
>disabled.
>
>Quarantined messages are automatically deleted three days
>after they are received.
>
> To learn how to access quarantined messages, visit:
>
>http://www.earthlink.net/myaccount/help/virusblocker/#quarantine
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So people who drive cars don't eat?
On Oct 15, 2004, at 5:29 AM, James F. Jarrett wrote:
We probably have wandered too far but...
When I was in college (about 1989) one of my professors was an AVID
cyclist. He lived 10 miles from the school and rode his bike every
day as long as the weather was nice (and this was in the Smoky
Mountains of NC!)
One of his students asked him why he did it, and he responded "its
cheaper than driving". One of the class called B.S., and seeing as it
was a math class, we decided to prove / disprove it. I don't have my
notes from then, but when everything was said and done, *IF* he got
his calories the cheapest way possible (I think we figured it at about
$2.00 per "meal" and three meals per day) it was cheaper to operate
just about any automobile owned by any of the students than to ride
the bike.
He stlll rode it everyday, just gave a different reason when asked.
James
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run
his
bike
1 mile.
He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at about 1/20th the
energy
found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but I don't still have
my
work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got there. Perhaps
someone
would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow' style back of the
envalope on
this and announcing their results and the logic they used to get
there?
Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One hamburger per mile seems like a lot. I figure I can get across town
and back on my bicycle -- about 8 miles round trip -- on just an apple,
yogurt, and a hunk of bread.
Not less expensive than an electric scooter perhaps, but definitely less
expensive than gas + insurance + maintenance + depreciation + road rage +
war + environmental damage. Plus, I spend less money at the medical clinic.
The human body isn't especially energy efficient, but a tuned-up bicycle is
almost certainly the most energy efficient mode of transportation ever
devised (and that includes walking). That's why I have studded snow tires
for my bicycle and will only commute by electric car on especially icy,
slushy, blizzardy days.
-- Will Bain
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:58 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his bike
1 mile.
He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
A loaded hamburger cost $3.95 or about double the cost of a gallon of gas.
So that would be equal to 1/2 mile per gallon.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
>
>
> > That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical. But
> > whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile to
> work
> > in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really see
> the
> > advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for
> > free.
> > I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
> > practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be
> > justifiable.
>
> Well, hating to point out the obvious, but if we're talking about costs
> here, your body isn't free to run either. The kilowatts you use in walking
> and running and bicycling come from food, which is often more than $0.15 a
> kwh.
>
> I accept your viewpoint, and I'm all for people bicycling.. but I'm also
> all
> for people scooting. And if people are more likely to scoot than take a
> bicycle, and more likely to scoot than take a car, then I say, let 'em
> scoot!
>
> Sheer
> (who has logged over 200 all-electric miles this month on his Rad2Go Vespa
> clone, and who isn't likely to bicycle with Seattle's hills because he's a
> slacker)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob Bath wrote:
> if I recall, the diode that protects the relay contacts, which is
> in parallel with the vacuum pump load is about the same current
> rating as the pump (12-25A), and 5 times the voltage (144, so say
> between 500-1000V)?
Your vacuum pump is running on 144v, not 12v? Why? 144v x 25a is enough
to drive the car down the road!
Most of the vacuum pumps people use run on 12v. Yes, they can draw
12-25a, though the running current on mine (from a GM car) is more like
10a.
The diode should have about the same current rating as the load, but its
voltage rating needs to be no higher than that powering the motor. The
lowest voltage diode you're going to find is probably still 30v, which
is plenty for a 12v motor.
Yes, you put the diode across the motor; anode to the positive side,
cathode to the negative side.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I heard an ad for the Ford Escape Hybrid this morning on the radio that
said:
"Can run electric only at certain speeds".
WhaWhaWhaWhaWhaaaat?!?!
I thought, "You don't have to plug it in", was going to be their rallying
cry- like Toyota.
Could be their marketing gurus are beginning to sense a major paradigm shift
in the air-breathing, gas-buying public?
Sheesh! If only they could be dragged (albeit, kicking and screaming) into
the 21st century.
Marv
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interestingly, the ad, which runs on NPR, originally said it can run on
gas or electric power. I and at least one other have objected to the
original ad as deceptive. Now they've changed it to the awkward
"electric only at certain speeds."
On Oct 15, 2004, at 9:01 AM, Marvin Campbell wrote:
I heard an ad for the Ford Escape Hybrid this morning on the radio that
said:
"Can run electric only at certain speeds".
WhaWhaWhaWhaWhaaaat?!?!
I thought, "You don't have to plug it in", was going to be their
rallying
cry- like Toyota.
Could be their marketing gurus are beginning to sense a major paradigm
shift
in the air-breathing, gas-buying public?
Sheesh! If only they could be dragged (albeit, kicking and screaming)
into
the 21st century.
Marv
_______________________________________________
RAV4-EV mailing list
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://five.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/rav4-ev
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I'll take a spin-off from this vacuum thread and ask a similar
question:
In the BSUEV (http://jon.silvercheetah.net/bsuev/24sept.asp) the vacuum
pump is a mysterious aluminum box. It has a nipple out the top and two
wires in the bottom. It measures roughly 5"x3"x10". It runs on 12V ~3A.
It connects directly to the master cylinder and has no external
resivoir. There are not any markings on it that we can find (perhaps on
the bottom where we cant see). Anyone have any idea where this "silver
box" may have come from? It runs at every full stop (not every brake
press, just the longer harder ones).
-Jon Glauser
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:32:57 -0600, "Will Bain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>One hamburger per mile seems like a lot. I figure I can get across town
>and back on my bicycle -- about 8 miles round trip -- on just an apple,
>yogurt, and a hunk of bread.
These logically splintered comparisons are silly. Sticking the human body
in the equation does not make perpetual motion work. If you can go 8
miles on an apple, what you're doing is using stored energy that you'll
replenish at a later meal by eating more than you would otherwise.
The first order analysis involves simply determining how many BTU/mile are
required to propel the bike/rider and then determine the average cost in
$/BTU of his diet. A second order analysis would determine if the extra
exertion changed his palate and if so, the effect on cost per BTU.
I'm going to bet that the list member whose engineering class analyzed his
prof's claim did a first order analysis and found the bike to be quite
expensive to ride. I bet a second order analysis would discover even more
expense.
>
>Not less expensive than an electric scooter perhaps, but definitely less
>expensive than gas + insurance + maintenance + depreciation
I bet not. I bet tire expense alone would tilt the balance remarkably. A
bike tire costs, what? One third a typical car tire (about $20 vs $60).
When I was an avid biker in my youth I was lucky to get 100 miles out of a
set of tires. Compare that to typically 60k miles.
The crank, chain and gears were usually wasted by 2k miles. Well over
$100 for replacement even back in the 70s.
My rather high end french racer cost about a third the cost of a typical
car back then. I would have been shocked to have gotten 10k miles out of
it.
Maintenance? The bike loses hands-down. Cleaning and lubing the chain a
couple of times a week. Inflating the tires. Tightening spokes and
truing wheels. Replacing brake pads every month or so. It all adds up.
In contrast, a modern car is a transportation appliance. Turn it on and
go somewhere.
> + road rage +
>war + environmental damage.
Silly boy.
> Plus, I spend less money at the medical clinic.
Yeah, until it's time for knee joint replacement or the repair of other
injuries.
>
>The human body isn't especially energy efficient, but a tuned-up bicycle is
>almost certainly the most energy efficient mode of transportation ever
>devised (and that includes walking). That's why I have studded snow tires
>for my bicycle and will only commute by electric car on especially icy,
>slushy, blizzardy days.
I'd be most interested (well, really not but let's pretend) to see how
your attitude changes as you accumulate years and miles on your body. I'm
at the other end of that path. It ain't fun. Given the opportunity to do
it over again, I'd never have set foot on a basketball court nor gotten
within 10 feet of a bicycle.
Not really EV related but it does illustrate some of the silly statements
people use to justify their obsessions.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, James F. Jarrett wrote:
> notes from then, but when everything was said and done, *IF* he got his
> calories the cheapest way possible (I think we figured it at about $2.00
> per "meal" and three meals per day) it was cheaper to operate just about
> any automobile owned by any of the students than to ride the bike.
>
I ride my bike to work almost every day and I eat the same amount of food
as when I don't ride. It does not seem logical to count three meals per
day as bicycling fuel since people eat even if they do nothing but sit at
a desk or watch television. I don't get up on Saturday and think, "I
guess I won't have breakfast as this is not a biking day.
Gail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have heard the original ad several times and have been tempted to go
to a dealership and tell them I want one, but to not put in gas as I
want to use it only as electric, since it can run on either.
Gail
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Marc Geller wrote:
> Interestingly, the ad, which runs on NPR, originally said it can run on
> gas or electric power. I and at least one other have objected to the
> original ad as deceptive. Now they've changed it to the awkward
> "electric only at certain speeds."
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, what's the cost of a heart attack if you don't exercise?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 8:57 PM
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
> A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his
bike
> 1 mile.
>
> He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
>
> A loaded hamburger cost $3.95 or about double the cost of a gallon of gas.
>
> So that would be equal to 1/2 mile per gallon.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:55 PM
> Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
>
>
> >
> >
> > > That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical.
But
> > > whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile to
> > work
> > > in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really
see
> > the
> > > advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for
> > > free.
> > > I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
> > > practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be
> > > justifiable.
> >
> > Well, hating to point out the obvious, but if we're talking about costs
> > here, your body isn't free to run either. The kilowatts you use in
walking
> > and running and bicycling come from food, which is often more than $0.15
a
> > kwh.
> >
> > I accept your viewpoint, and I'm all for people bicycling.. but I'm also
> > all
> > for people scooting. And if people are more likely to scoot than take a
> > bicycle, and more likely to scoot than take a car, then I say, let 'em
> > scoot!
> >
> > Sheer
> > (who has logged over 200 all-electric miles this month on his Rad2Go
Vespa
> > clone, and who isn't likely to bicycle with Seattle's hills because he's
a
> > slacker)
> >
> >
>
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Huh? A Gast vacuum pump is used typically in a 12V circuit. I just use a
1N4004 1amp diode I had laying around. Even though the pump draws 6A at 12V,
the diode only sees one instantanious back-emf pulse and the diode is rated
for a single pulse much higher than the 6A back emf pulse. A 50V 1A diode
could be used for that matter.
Mark www.solectrol.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 12:25 AM
Subject: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
> Hi All;
> Just checking: If I'm understanding the circuit
> properly, the switch is normally closed, right?
>
> Next, if I recall, the diode that protects the relay
> contacts, which is in parallel with the vacuum pump
> load is about the same current rating as the pump
> (12-25A), and 5 times the voltage (144, so say between
> 500-1000V)? I could go to Radio Shack and read the
> specs, but it's so much more fun getting the same
> component as people _on the road_ with it. And it
> seems like I used _two_ diodes, but I can't remember
> how I had it wired, nor can I find the docs where I
> wrote it in...
>
> Thanks a bunch in advance!
> Sincerely,
>
> =====
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004, Dave Cover wrote:
These look better but, is anyone working on bringing back NiZn batteries? As I understand it NiZn
The fact that Evercel went pffft before I could buy batteries has set back
getting my EV on the road by months. I should suck it up and buy new lead
acid, but I can't bring myself to do it.
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If anyone is interested, I have 9 M100-12v NiZn batteries with individual chargers,
new this year, which I'm willing to sell. These are 7-cell batteries which can be
repackaged into 5-cell 8v modules that have a footprint just smaller than a flooded 6v
battery. If anyone is interested, contact me at etcadman-at-yahoo.com for details,
etc. -Ed Thorpe--- On Fri 10/15, Dave Cover < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From:
Dave Cover [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 05:19:00
-0700 (PDT)Subject: Fwd: New ish batteries These look better but, is anyone working on
bringing back NiZn batteries? As I understand it NiZnweigh less, handle the cold
weather better, are much more environmentally friendly, can cost less,and have good
capacity. If there is new battery development going on why not make
evolutionarychanges, not just incremental? Especially if you are looking 3 years out
before you may have aproduct ready for market.Dave Cover--- Lee D!
ekker wrote:> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:09:29 -0700 (PDT)> From: Lee Dekker
> Subject: New ish batteries > To: EV world > CC: Electrifying Times , EV SJS
,> [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Not too many details but interesting > >
http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?n=5962> > The new batteries will
replace lead metal with composite, enhancing their power and> length of use.
Williams projects they will cost 15 to 20 percent more than original> batteries.
But he says they'll be popular with hybrid cars.> > > >
_______________________________> Do you Yahoo!?> Declare Yourself - Register
online to vote today!> http://vote.yahoo.com> >
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
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I don't know what you do to your bikes, but I have a 15 year old
(>2000km in the last 3 years) mountain bike I ride ~6 miles every day
on-road to school. I replaced the tires once in 15 years (many more
tubes, buty they are cheep). The chain once. The sprockets are original,
the shifters are original. the brakes are original (as best I can
remember). The seat is new cause I got in a wrek that bent my old one. I
don't clean it more than 3-4 times a year. I admit it is wearing out,
but it is still very usefull, and for me, MUCH cheaper than driving
(gas, insurance, parking). It takes me the same amount of time to drive
to school as it does to bike. Sometimes less time to bike because I
don't have to park.
Granted: I'm young, have the body for it, and can't afford much else.
To relate to EVs: If I could afford to convert a car, I would drive it
instead of the bike.
-Jon Glauser
Neon John wrote:
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:32:57 -0600, "Will Bain" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
One hamburger per mile seems like a lot. I figure I can get across town
and back on my bicycle -- about 8 miles round trip -- on just an apple,
yogurt, and a hunk of bread.
These logically splintered comparisons are silly. Sticking the human body
in the equation does not make perpetual motion work. If you can go 8
miles on an apple, what you're doing is using stored energy that you'll
replenish at a later meal by eating more than you would otherwise.
The first order analysis involves simply determining how many BTU/mile are
required to propel the bike/rider and then determine the average cost in
$/BTU of his diet. A second order analysis would determine if the extra
exertion changed his palate and if so, the effect on cost per BTU.
I'm going to bet that the list member whose engineering class analyzed his
prof's claim did a first order analysis and found the bike to be quite
expensive to ride. I bet a second order analysis would discover even more
expense.
Not less expensive than an electric scooter perhaps, but definitely less
expensive than gas + insurance + maintenance + depreciation
I bet not. I bet tire expense alone would tilt the balance remarkably. A
bike tire costs, what? One third a typical car tire (about $20 vs $60).
When I was an avid biker in my youth I was lucky to get 100 miles out of a
set of tires. Compare that to typically 60k miles.
The crank, chain and gears were usually wasted by 2k miles. Well over
$100 for replacement even back in the 70s.
My rather high end french racer cost about a third the cost of a typical
car back then. I would have been shocked to have gotten 10k miles out of
it.
Maintenance? The bike loses hands-down. Cleaning and lubing the chain a
couple of times a week. Inflating the tires. Tightening spokes and
truing wheels. Replacing brake pads every month or so. It all adds up.
In contrast, a modern car is a transportation appliance. Turn it on and
go somewhere.
+ road rage +
war + environmental damage.
Silly boy.
Plus, I spend less money at the medical clinic.
Yeah, until it's time for knee joint replacement or the repair of other
injuries.
The human body isn't especially energy efficient, but a tuned-up bicycle is
almost certainly the most energy efficient mode of transportation ever
devised (and that includes walking). That's why I have studded snow tires
for my bicycle and will only commute by electric car on especially icy,
slushy, blizzardy days.
I'd be most interested (well, really not but let's pretend) to see how
your attitude changes as you accumulate years and miles on your body. I'm
at the other end of that path. It ain't fun. Given the opportunity to do
it over again, I'd never have set foot on a basketball court nor gotten
within 10 feet of a bicycle.
Not really EV related but it does illustrate some of the silly statements
people use to justify their obsessions.
John
---
John De Armond
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://bellsouthpwp.net/j/o/johngd/
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Hi All,
I've been pretty busy working on controllers and haven't even caught
up on the EV list. Did I miss Johns post about Woodburn?
It's just that Ken Lange sent me this nice video of one run against
the Zombie and I was looking for a explanation. :-)
The video is here: it's 1.1 mb.
http://www.fat.cafeelectric.com/CapopeVsZombieNedra2004.mov
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
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/I have sent this twice to the EV list and still havn't seen it on the list.
In case I am running into a lenght problem, I have broken it up into two
parts. If the earlier copies made it to the list and I just havn't gotten
them, then I aplogize for the repeat posting./
The WTN's X prize was $10,000,000 to the first team that could put 3 people
into space and then repeat the trip within 14 days. Burt Rutan's crew at
Advanced Composite managed this task. The goal was to force technological
progress in a specific field.
To quote from their website:
<The ANSARI X PRIZE was inspired by the early aviation prizes of the 20th
Century, primarily the spectacular trans-Atlantic flight of Charles
Lindbergh in The Spirit of St. Louis which captured the US $25,000 (US$)
Orteig prize in 1927. Through a smaller, faster, better approach to
aviation, Lindbergh and his financial supporters, The Spirit of St. Louis
Organization, demonstrated that a small professional team could outperform a
large, government-style effort. >
WTN has decided that they want to organize more prizes. They are asking the
public for suggestions. Go to http://www.wtnxprize.org/
I'm guessing that people on this list might have a few ideas<G>. The more EV
suggestions, the more chance they will find one they like. I have pasted
what I submitted below. If you think I got parts right, feel free to poach
ideas.
Have fun,
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
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woo-hooo!!!! new EV LSR of 314.958 mph!!!
...now it's time for someone to step up with to the plate with an EV and take the
top LSR from that upitty turbine car!
---begin---
This morning at 9:40am mountain time the Buckeye Bullet, driven by Roger
Schroer, set a new Land Speed Record for the E-III class at 314.958
mph. The vehicle duplicated the previous day's run with very similar timed
miles and an exit speed of over 318 mph.
Following the run Roger Schroer was inducted into both the 200 mph and 300
mph clubs, and much celebrating commenced.
This has been a very proud day for all involved.
GO BUCKS!
GO FAST!
cheers,
Giorgio Rizzoni
---end---
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Say Rich looks like everything you need to build some really big changers.
http://electrical-contractor.net/ubb/Forum17/HTML/000015.html
Thanks,
Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
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[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> According to
> http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/food-aliment/ns-sc/nr-rn/surveillance/p
> df/e_NVSCF_eng.pdf
> a single patty hamburger has about 1200kJ of energy.
> A kilojoule is a kilowatt second, which is 1/3600 of a
> kilowatt hour. Therefore a single patty hamburger has about 0.333 kWh.
According to <http://pages.prodigy.net/jack.loganbill/calorie.htm>,
a 180lb person riding at 12mph for 5min (1mi) will burn 38 calories.
This is in close agreement with the calculator at
<http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Vista/6434/CalCalcApplet.html>
for a 180lb person on a 20lb bike travelling 1mi in 5min on level ground
in still air and a non-aerodynamic riding position. (Actualy, this
calculator claims that only 24 of the calories are actually burned due
to the cycling activity itself.)
According to <http://www.wiredwales.com/info/c_factor/energy.htm>,
a calorie is 0.000001163 kWh, so 38 calories is 0.000044194kWh (or
0.044194Wh).
This means that that 0.333kWh single patty hamburger contains enough
energy for 7535miles of travel at 12mph (about 628hrs worth).
This clearly illustrates that there is some serious inefficiency
involved in the human body's conversion of food energy to physical
energy ;^>, since it is pretty obvious that none of us are going to
cycle for 628hrs on a single burger.
However, it also *suggests* that even if the 38 calorie estimate is off
by a factor of 10, and our bodies are only 1% efficient at turning food
energy into useful output, a single burger still provides sufficient
fuel for *much* more than 1 mile of cycling.
At my previous job, I regularly walked about a mile or so to/from work
and, like Gail, found that my daily food intake remained pretty much
unchanged on the days I walked, drove, or stayed home. At most I might
have eaten a bran muffin a day more back then.
Before my present employer moved their office (and I also moved), I
started cycling several miles to work, and once again did not notice any
significant change in my food intake. It just doesn't take that much
energy to cycle or walk a few miles over reasonably level streets.
That said, I agree with Sheer and Ken that if an e-scoot/e-bike/ev
displaces an ICE vehicle, it is a good thing, even if the commute is
short (<5mi). If the motorised vehicle replaces a human-powered
commute, I believe that is a bad thing. Energy use aside, there
probably isn't one of us who wouldn't benefit from 20-40minutes of light
physical activity each day, and the energy and resources, etc.
associated with the medical attention we avoid by improving our physical
health through regular exercise have to be considered in any such
comparison.
My commute is now 8mi each way, crossing some reasonably steep terrain,
and I can't wait to start commuting with my EV instead of my ICE
vehicle!
Cheers,
Roger.
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