EV Digest 3852
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) the cost of running an EV
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: the cost of running an EV
by "bholmber" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: the cost of running an EV
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: the cost of running an EV
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) go Buckeyes!
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Build your own high performance electric Vehicle for 700 dollars/EAA San Fracisco
Chapter inaugeral meeting
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: the cost of running an EV
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: the cost of running an EV
by Sam Uzi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: the cost of running an EV
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) RE: the cost of running an EV
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) heater
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Unsprung weight, a balancing act.
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Unsprung weight, a balancing act.
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Clutch Ruminations
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Solved! Screetch = current limit/DCP Cont., not brush arc
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Batteries under rear seat
by "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Batteries under rear seat
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) New ish batteries
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) OT: Food energy (was: the cost of running an EV)
by "Jon \"Sheer\" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Unsprung weight, a balancing act.
by Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: 34XCD Dimensions
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Batteries under rear seat
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Food energy (was: the cost of running an EV)
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) RE: Batteries under rear seat
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Food energy (was: the cost of running an EV)
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Lithylene
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Fwd: New ish batteries
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Clutch Ruminations
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: OT: Food energy
by "James F. Jarrett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
just for fun, I decided to figure out my operational costs for my daily EV
scooter commute... my commute is short - only 1 mile in each direction, and
recharge time is less than an hour after each leg, so - to be overly conservative
- let's say my daily charge time is 2 hours @ 3amps/24v = 144Wh
let's also say energy costs $0.15/KWh (which is a high etimate; I'm pretty sure
actual costs here are lower), so my operational budget is about $0.02 per day...
if I did this every single day of the year (which I don't), the
unrealistically-high cost estimate would still be _less than $8.00 per year_!
the purchase cost of the scooter was about 14 months' worth of bus passes, and
the only other expense is batteries (a new set with double the amp hours of the
existing set, which I don't need yet but figure I might within the year) which
will cost about $80, or less than two month's bus pass ...so, call it 16 months
and the scooter has paid for itself!
yeah, it's just a scooter (an HCF Pacelite - very nice), but I don't need
anything more right now
I love EVs
--
---===<<<###\\\!!!$$$[[[{{{(((*)))}}}]]]$$$!!!\\\###>>>===---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical. But
whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile to work
in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really see the
advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for free.
I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be justifiable.
Brett
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Sam Uzi
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 3:53 PM
Subject: the cost of running an EV
just for fun, I decided to figure out my operational costs for my daily EV
scooter commute... my commute is short - only 1 mile in each direction, and
recharge time is less than an hour after each leg, so - to be overly
conservative
- let's say my daily charge time is 2 hours @ 3amps/24v = 144Wh
let's also say energy costs $0.15/KWh (which is a high etimate; I'm pretty
sure
actual costs here are lower), so my operational budget is about $0.02 per
day...
if I did this every single day of the year (which I don't), the
unrealistically-high cost estimate would still be _less than $8.00 per
year_!
the purchase cost of the scooter was about 14 months' worth of bus passes,
and
the only other expense is batteries (a new set with double the amp hours of
the
existing set, which I don't need yet but figure I might within the year)
which
will cost about $80, or less than two month's bus pass ...so, call it 16
months
and the scooter has paid for itself!
yeah, it's just a scooter (an HCF Pacelite - very nice), but I don't need
anything more right now
I love EVs
--
---===<<<###\\\!!!$$$[[[{{{(((*)))}}}]]]$$$!!!\\\###>>>===---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical. But
> whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile to
work
> in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really see
the
> advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for free.
> I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
> practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be justifiable.
Well, hating to point out the obvious, but if we're talking about costs
here, your body isn't free to run either. The kilowatts you use in walking
and running and bicycling come from food, which is often more than $0.15 a
kwh.
I accept your viewpoint, and I'm all for people bicycling.. but I'm also all
for people scooting. And if people are more likely to scoot than take a
bicycle, and more likely to scoot than take a car, then I say, let 'em
scoot!
Sheer
(who has logged over 200 all-electric miles this month on his Rad2Go Vespa
clone, and who isn't likely to bicycle with Seattle's hills because he's a
slacker)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical. But
> whatever happened to walking or bicycling?
simple enough: I don't want to
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
yeah!! ...not bad for a bunch of students!!!
---begin---
Friends of the Bullet:
Thursday was another spectacular day on the Salt.
Perfect temperature, in the 70s, and ideal salt conditions.
The team had the car ready at the start line for a new U.S. Record attempt
around 3pm. The run went flawlessly, and Roger Schroer set a new ceiling
for electric racers with a third mile clocked at 316.658 mph. The Bullet
was "out the back door" at almost 322 mph! See the attached "speeding
ticket" for the details. [sam: it was an attachment, so I couldn't send it to the
EVDL list - sorry]
The Bullet has now qualified for a new U.S. Record and has a chance to back
up the record early tomorrow morning, when the return runs are scheduled.
Stay tuned! Lots of pictures on http://www.roadtobonneville.com/
Go Bucks! Go Faster!
_________________________________________________________
Giorgio Rizzoni
The Ford Motor Company Chair in Electromechanical Systems
Professor of Mechanical and Electrical Engineering
Director, Center for Automotive Research
The Ohio State University
930 Kinnear Road
Columbus, OH 43212
---end---
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all. I will be at the meeting to announce a class on electric vehicle
conversion &/or design. Build your own electric scooter for 700 dollars. I
am thinking of a monday night time. Lawrence Rhodes..
Message: 2
Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2004 17:16:42 -0000
From: "anbausa" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: EAA San Fracisco Chapter inaugeral meeting
FWD from Th!nk_EV group
----------------------------------------
You're invited to the inaugural meeting of the Electric Auto
Association's San Francisco chapter:
Saturday, October 16
12 noon to 2 p.m.
847 Haight Street (between Divisadero and Scott.)
The EAA is an educational, support and advocacy group for the
promotion of electric cars. Electric cars provide emission-free
personal transportation using electricity, not fossil fuels. Come
hear how you can drive a quiet, non-polluting car without gas or oil.
Two electric cars will be available for rides:
- Toyota RAV 4 EV
- Ford Escort station wagon electric conversion
Plus:
- A demonstration of at-home charging.
- A report on the successful Greenpeace and
JumpstartFord
campaign to save Th!nk City electric cars.
- PV/EV: Power your car from solar panels on your roof.
The meeting is open to all and free of charge. MUNI 6, 7, 24, 71, N
110/220v/SPI/AVCON charging available. Please call ahead to arrange.
For more information, call Marc at 415-861-7278.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his bike
1 mile.
He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
A loaded hamburger cost $3.95 or about double the cost of a gallon of gas.
So that would be equal to 1/2 mile per gallon.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
>
>
> > That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical. But
> > whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile to
> work
> > in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really see
> the
> > advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for
> > free.
> > I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
> > practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be
> > justifiable.
>
> Well, hating to point out the obvious, but if we're talking about costs
> here, your body isn't free to run either. The kilowatts you use in walking
> and running and bicycling come from food, which is often more than $0.15 a
> kwh.
>
> I accept your viewpoint, and I'm all for people bicycling.. but I'm also
> all
> for people scooting. And if people are more likely to scoot than take a
> bicycle, and more likely to scoot than take a car, then I say, let 'em
> scoot!
>
> Sheer
> (who has logged over 200 all-electric miles this month on his Rad2Go Vespa
> clone, and who isn't likely to bicycle with Seattle's hills because he's a
> slacker)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
> A loaded hamburger cost $3.95 or about double the cost of a gallon of gas.
> So that would be equal to 1/2 mile per gallon.
or roughly 180 miles on my scooter!
...that actually works out right, as I maybe eat about 2 hamburgers per year
(arf)
..and that's not even counting using the waste-product to generate methane, which
would be captured and burned to drive a genny (or fuel-celled/whatever) to charge
the batts a bit more...
...ah, the magical wonder of electricity...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That might not apply to those of us who, shall we say, have been "hoarding
fuel"? :-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 10/14/2004 5:57 PM
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his
bike
1 mile.
He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
A loaded hamburger cost $3.95 or about double the cost of a gallon of
gas.
So that would be equal to 1/2 mile per gallon.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon "Sheer" Pullen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 5:55 PM
Subject: Re: the cost of running an EV
>
>
> > That's very interesting, and your scooter sounds pretty economical.
But
> > whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one mile
to
> work
> > in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just don't really
see
> the
> > advantage of a device that does the same thing that your legs do for
> > free.
> > I'm sure its fun to ride, but in all honesty, its hard to argue the
> > practicality in my mind. Now if it did 60mph, that might be
> > justifiable.
>
> Well, hating to point out the obvious, but if we're talking about
costs
> here, your body isn't free to run either. The kilowatts you use in
walking
> and running and bicycling come from food, which is often more than
$0.15 a
> kwh.
>
> I accept your viewpoint, and I'm all for people bicycling.. but I'm
also
> all
> for people scooting. And if people are more likely to scoot than take
a
> bicycle, and more likely to scoot than take a car, then I say, let 'em
> scoot!
>
> Sheer
> (who has logged over 200 all-electric miles this month on his Rad2Go
Vespa
> clone, and who isn't likely to bicycle with Seattle's hills because
he's a
> slacker)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But whatever happened to walking or bicycling? I can walk the one
mile to work in 15-20 minutes or bike there in 3-4 minutes. I just
don't really see the advantage of a device that does the same thing
that your legs do for free.
Are you for real, or just looking to play devil's advocate? Of course
one can walk or bike nearly everywhere if one wants to. Escoots are not
typically an attractive alternative for walkers or bikers and I don't
know of anyone suggesting that someone give up walking to escoot.
There are more than a million people in this country that drive and SUV
5 miles or less to work each day. If escooters, ebikes, or other EVs can
reduce this huge waste, all the better. It's about getting to your
nearby destination quickly, economically, and without being tired or
sweaty when you arrive.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Megasite
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX - 801-749-7807
message - 866-872-8901
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I bought one of those, they are really really pathetic, and I live in
CA. Better buy 4 to start with
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ratio of sprung to unsprung is a major part of the vehicle dynamics
equation, it is why little cars have trouble achiving good ride quality.
the unsprung weight has to be reduced to the point where components are
unsafe or really expensive.
Since an EV has a mass of batteries to react agaisnt the spring
compresion of that heavy wheel motor and can push it back down to the
road without suffering to much body displacement, it may work out.
One last thing to watch out for when changing spring rates. Avoid
combinations of weight - spring constant combinations that fall in the
60hz range for natural frequency, it will make occupants car-sick.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think it is important to remember that everything about an EV is a
compromise.
Some people choose power, some choose range.
Some choose the cheapest parts available, some choose the parts that
give them the best value, some people simply choose "the best".
(AC vs DC, lead vs advanced chemistries, lots of smarts vs keep it
simple, the list goes on...)
When it comes to wheel motors they have advantages as well as
disadvantages.
They will allow far more flexibilty in design of an EV since the motors
essentially disappear into the wheels (which are going to be there
anyway) freeing up tons of space that would otherwise be occupied by the
motor, transmission, driveshafts etc.
They don't have to be perfect, they only have to be good enough.
Mark
The perfect is the enemy of the good - Joel Spolsky
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 15 October 2004 12:29 PM
To: EVlist
Subject: Unsprung weight, a balancing act.
The ratio of sprung to unsprung is a major part of the vehicle dynamics
equation, it is why little cars have trouble achiving good ride quality.
the unsprung weight has to be reduced to the point where components are
unsafe or really expensive.
Since an EV has a mass of batteries to react agaisnt the spring
compresion of that heavy wheel motor and can push it back down to the
road without suffering to much body displacement, it may work out.
One last thing to watch out for when changing spring rates. Avoid
combinations of weight - spring constant combinations that fall in the
60hz range for natural frequency, it will make occupants car-sick.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I started calling around today to order a clutch for my conversion,
and learned some things I thought would be of general interest to the
list.
Bike racers, and car racers, are fanatical about keeping their wheels
light. You get taxed twice for wheel weight: Once for accelerating it
linearly, and again for the energy to rotate it. It makes a car wheel
effectively weigh about 1.5 times its actual weight, in terms of
acceleration. Another way to think of it is every 2 pounds you take
off a wheel is like taking 3 pounds off the car.
Geared weight is even worse! Suppose your 1st gear is a 10:1 overall
ratio. Weight in your clutch, flywheel, and motor acts like it has
ten times the effective rotational inertia! Another way to think
about it is about 100 times more energy will go into this geared
spinning flywheel than a stationary one bolted to the car upon
accelerating. Figure a flywheel is about 1/2 the diameter of a wheel,
and you can figure that every pound you take off the flywheel is like
taking about 2 pounds off the car.
Lightweight flywheels and pressure plates are well known racer's
tricks, but generally discouraged for street use. A gas car with a
very light flywheel is hard to start, idles poorly, and is easy to
stall.
For electric motors, however, no worries! Electric motors are smooth,
and don't need a heavy flywheel to even out the torque pulsations.
They can't stall, so no worries there. And they don't idle, so no
need to worry about that -- and even if it does idle no worries. A
lighter flywheel will give a bit better acceleration and a bit better
range.
The only downside I see to an aluminum flywheel and pressure plate is
cost. Are there any functional gotchas I might not know about?
Part two is handling the higher torque. One option is to get a copper
clutch disk. It is grabbier and can give about another 100 ft*lbs of
grip. It can also chatter upon takeoff. Again EVs have an advantage,
since electric motors can take off from 0 rpm.
What if you need even more clutch grab due to stupendous torque that
Godzillas and Orbitals can grant to electric motors? You can go with
a stronger pressure plate. This will make the clutch pedal harder to
push, and can stress other clutch components. Another option is to
get a Centerforce clutch (http://www.centerforce.com ). It uses
weights that centrifugally increase clutch force as rpms increase.
This helps keep the pedal easy to push at low rpm, but gives a
stronger clutch at high rpm. This won't help an EV launching hard
from a dead stop in 3rd gear, but helps if you launch in 1st (tire
traction is your limit then).
Any gotchas anyone can think of using a Centerforce clutch in an EV?
(aside from cost!)
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the scoop:
The sound I was hearing was _not_ brush arcing
problems with the motor. Rather it was a sound
generated as the controller protects itself (goes into
current limit) after every pulse. Add up each sound
after every limit, and you have a frequency. (Lee
will probably do a better job of explaining it, but
that's 3rd person after Damon explained it to person
#2). Sooo, between a different motor (9") with the
Rabbit, and a different controller (Curtis), that
explains why I never heard it.
To top it off, I heard that with the Civic gear
ratios, Lynn (same components) is taking his first
gear to 45 mph, and staying under 6500 RPMs (motor
rating). I, on the other hand, was shifting out of
1st by about 25-30, thus taking my amps a bit high on
those hills, which explains the current limit issue as
well.
Hope that can help someone else!
As far as the latest on my rig, Rich repaired the
PFC-20 I shorted, and sent it back. Including transit
time, it was around 2 weeks, so I was pretty
impressed.
Just put in 12" springs (same rate), so that should
take care of the grinding sound between the Coil-over
sleeve and the spring.
Finally, I've yanked out the battery rack that has the
vacuum pump so that I can replace the pump switch with
one that was adjustable. That should solve the issue
of turning on with each brake depression.
Still to-be-determined is whether a new CV axle will
solve the bizarre tranny-noises. Hoping to be back on
the road in 48 hrs. max, to get that EV grin back!
(;-p
peace, out.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bob Bath wrote:
> > It was happening primarily at high amperages.
> (hard
> > load).
>
> Is it also at relatively high motor voltages (high
> rpm)? If so, then it
> probably *is* arcing. Not good! This needs to be
> addressed before it
> wrecks the motor.
>
> Can you rig a mirror or camera or camcorder to watch
> the brushes while
> you drive and this noise occurs? That would confirm
> it for sure!
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
Just checking: If I'm understanding the circuit
properly, the switch is normally closed, right?
Next, if I recall, the diode that protects the relay
contacts, which is in parallel with the vacuum pump
load is about the same current rating as the pump
(12-25A), and 5 times the voltage (144, so say between
500-1000V)? I could go to Radio Shack and read the
specs, but it's so much more fun getting the same
component as people _on the road_ with it. And it
seems like I used _two_ diodes, but I can't remember
how I had it wired, nor can I find the docs where I
wrote it in...
Thanks a bunch in advance!
Sincerely,
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cliff,
Can you tell us a bit more about how the Kokam cells are mounted and
connected together?
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What are the pros and cons of putting batteries under the rear seat of a
small car conversion - where the sheet metal bulges up and invites you
to put batteries, nice and low, closer to the center of the car...
John Foster
VEVA Tresurer,
Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
1980 Dodge Omni 128V
"Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Randy Holmquist at www.canev.com sells a battery box for doing just this
on a Geo Metro conversion, so he might be able to give you some good info on
it. Basically, he has you cut out that sheet metal, bolt or weld in the
box, and then the seat fits right back over it, so you don't see the
batteries and you haven't lost any passenger room.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John Foster
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:32 PM
To: evlist
Subject: Batteries under rear seat
What are the pros and cons of putting batteries under the rear seat of a
small car conversion - where the sheet metal bulges up and invites you
to put batteries, nice and low, closer to the center of the car...
John Foster
VEVA Tresurer,
Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
1980 Dodge Omni 128V
"Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not too many details but interesting
http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?n=5962
The new batteries will replace lead metal with composite, enhancing their power and
length of use. Williams projects they will cost 15 to 20 percent more than original
batteries. But he says they'll be popular with hybrid cars.
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his
bike
> 1 mile.
>
> He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at about 1/20th the energy
found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but I don't still have my
work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got there. Perhaps someone
would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow' style back of the envalope on
this and announcing their results and the logic they used to get there?
Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well Said.
--- Mark Fowler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I think it is important to remember that everything about an EV is a
> compromise.
>
> Some people choose power, some choose range.
> Some choose the cheapest parts available, some choose the parts that
> give them the best value, some people simply choose "the best".
> (AC vs DC, lead vs advanced chemistries, lots of smarts vs keep it
> simple, the list goes on...)
>
> When it comes to wheel motors they have advantages as well as
> disadvantages.
>
> They will allow far more flexibilty in design of an EV since the motors
> essentially disappear into the wheels (which are going to be there
> anyway) freeing up tons of space that would otherwise be occupied by the
> motor, transmission, driveshafts etc.
>
> They don't have to be perfect, they only have to be good enough.
>
> Mark
> The perfect is the enemy of the good - Joel Spolsky
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, 15 October 2004 12:29 PM
> To: EVlist
> Subject: Unsprung weight, a balancing act.
>
>
> The ratio of sprung to unsprung is a major part of the vehicle dynamics
> equation, it is why little cars have trouble achiving good ride quality.
>
> the unsprung weight has to be reduced to the point where components are
> unsafe or really expensive.
>
> Since an EV has a mass of batteries to react agaisnt the spring
> compresion of that heavy wheel motor and can push it back down to the
> road without suffering to much body displacement, it may work out.
>
> One last thing to watch out for when changing spring rates. Avoid
> combinations of weight - spring constant combinations that fall in the
> 60hz range for natural frequency, it will make occupants car-sick.
>
>
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Bill and All,
Bill Dennis wrote:
> Wow, John, thanks so much. That's even more info than I'd hoped for. It'll
> be really helpful.
You're welcome. I made one mistake in the measurements, when I wrote:
> The 6 barrels that make up the bulk of the battery
> body, are 5 inches high...
>
They are actually a bit more than 5 and 1/2 inches high, and with the top rectangular
top
piece at about 2 inches thick, this adds up to the 7 and 1/2 inch overall battery
height
(excluding post height) as I had reported it being.
> I think I read in this list a couple of months ago that
> the marine version of the battery is exactly the same as the 34XCD, but
> without the side posts.
Correct, they are identical inside and make the same amount of power. The Exide Orbital
marine blue tops have performed extremely well in White Zombie...not one failure since
the
Fall of '03 to present, even though the car draws in the neighborhood of 2500-2600 amps
from each battery when the Afterburner button is hit! The batteries give 1400 amps from
the start then ramp down to 800 amps, then are pulled even harder to the 2.5-2.5k amp
level when the button is pushed, humping hard the rest of the way down the track, with
the
final current ramping down to 1200 amps at the finish line as motor back EMF takes
over at
~ 6500 rpm @ 101 mph.
> Can the 34XCD's side posts be ground down or cut
> back a little, or am I better off just spending a bit of extra money and
> buying the marine version?
Unknown....they 'appear' to be part of the top piece sealed plastic, so you might break
the all-important AGM pressure seal by doing this. I wouldn't recommend it.
As a sidebar, the new AGM kid on the block, the deep cycle yellow top Deka
'Intimidator'
(42 lbs., 740 CCA, and 55 ahrs) also has goofy side terminals, but these 'can'
definitely
be sawed off with no ill effects, as they are not part of the pressure seal of the
case.
These sit slightly raised off the body all the way from the point where they start at
the
outside portion of the lead top post after that post has left the plastic sealed top,
all
the way over and around the side of the battery.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seat remains usable if the batteries are small enough (my batteries are too
tall therefore the battery box height prevents the seat from being
installed)
More difficult to ventilate. Possible acid spray or smell in the passenger
compartment.
Batteries stay warmer longer in winter therefore require less insulation and
less heat. In hot climates, they overheat easier if the car is parked in the
sun.
If part of the pack is inside and part is outside, it is more difficult to
keep an AGM pack equalized.
AGM batteries stay cleaner than outside.
More difficult to do battery watering and terminal maintenance compared to
Trunk or under truck bed or under hood. More difficult means the maintenance
is less likely to get done on schedule.
Central weight placement reduces polar moment and makes the car more
responsive to steering input.
More difficult to run battery cables through the firewall or passenger
compartment floor. Requires more wiring penetrations.
Having the pack wiring in the passenger compartment makes it more convenient
to mount circuit breakers within arm's reach but requires additional
insulation or conduit to make it safe.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Foster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evlist" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 14, 2004 9:32 PM
Subject: Batteries under rear seat
>
> What are the pros and cons of putting batteries under the rear seat of a
> small car conversion - where the sheet metal bulges up and invites you
> to put batteries, nice and low, closer to the center of the car...
>
> John Foster
> VEVA Tresurer,
> Dynasty Electric Car Co Engineer/Assembler
> 1980 Dodge Omni 128V
> "Cars are for Women with Children, real men ride Bromptons"
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry for the OT reply...
According to
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/food-aliment/ns-sc/nr-rn/surveillance/pdf/e_NVSCF
_eng.pdf
a single patty hamburger has about 1200kJ of energy.
A kilojoule is a kilowatt second, which is 1/3600 of a kilowatt hour.
Therefore a single patty hamburger has about 0.333 kWh.
So 0.333kWh per mile (3 miles per kWh) is pretty reasonable for a car
sized EV, but not for a bicycle.
Now, I've heard that cycling is the most energy efficient method of
transporting a human,
(2nd is a passenger train...) so I don't know how the 1 burger per mile
thing works out.
Of course, there are the unknowns:
How effeciently do we convert the energy in food to motive output?
How much energy does it take to travel 1 mile on a bike at a reasonable
cruising speed?
Stuff like that.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon "Sheer" Pullen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, 15 October 2004 3:40 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: OT: Food energy (was: the cost of running an EV)
> A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run
his
bike
> 1 mile.
>
> He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at about 1/20th the energy
found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but I don't still have my
work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got there. Perhaps
someone
would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow' style back of the
envalope on
this and announcing their results and the logic they used to get there?
Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
S.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Roads and Traffic Authority of NSW in Australia really don't like it
if you put wet cell batteries within the passenger compartment of an EV
- they won't let you register it unless you have a decent ventilation
system.
You really don't want acid vapour and/or hydrogen gas in the same place
that you and your passengers sit.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 15 Oct 2004 16:55:06 +1000, "Mark Fowler"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Now, I've heard that cycling is the most energy efficient method of
> transporting a human,
> (2nd is a passenger train...) so I don't know how the 1 burger per mile
> thing works out.
At http://www.rst.mp-all.de/leistung.htm you can calculate the power
necessary to achieve a specific speed.
Here are some translations:
Geschwindigkeit - Speed
Gewicht Fahrer - weight of cyclist
Gewicht Fahrrad - weight of bicycle
Temperatur - temperature
H�he �ber NN - height above sea level
Berechnung - compute
At http://www.rst.mp-all.de/ you find some more calculations.
Enjoy,
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philips licenses Lithylene battery technology to Stone Battery
Philips has announced that Stone Battery Industries Corp., a startup
company from Taipei, Taiwan, has completed the licensing agreement to
employ Philips Lithyleneâ battery technology in the manufacturing of
batteries with free form factors. The partnership will bring a new
degree of design freedom to nearly all battery-powered products, says
the company.
Philips Lithylene battery-making technology enables the fabrication of
rechargeable lithium-ion batteries without the need of outside
pressure to keep the battery stack together. A stable battery
structure is obtained by making microscopic holes through the
electrodes and separators, and subsequently filling these with a
polymer. Having a stable electrode structure, Lithylene batteries can
be tailored in a variety of forms without compromising on performance
or price. Free-form battery design is seen as an attractive option,
especially when space is limited and organic shapes are important.
Lithylene battery technology is considered the only non-chemical
solution for maintaining electrodes structure in a battery cell
without metal shield. In addition to portable information and
entertainment devices, Stone Battery further attempts to extend the
use of Philips Lithylene battery technology in emerging applications
such as providing ultra-thin and flexible batteries in active RFID
tags.
The technology can be used to fabricate batteries with a variety of
different electrochemical compositions to the contours of a product.
Stone Battery plans to start mass production in the Greater China
region with an estimated capacity of 500,000 pieces per month
effective the third quarter in 2004.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
These look better but, is anyone working on bringing back NiZn batteries? As I
understand it NiZn
weigh less, handle the cold weather better, are much more environmentally friendly,
can cost less,
and have good capacity. If there is new battery development going on why not make
evolutionary
changes, not just incremental? Especially if you are looking 3 years out before you
may have a
product ready for market.
Dave Cover
--- Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2004 22:09:29 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Lee Dekker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: New ish batteries
> To: EV world <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> CC: Electrifying Times <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, EV SJS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Not too many details but interesting
>
> http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?n=5962
>
> The new batteries will replace lead metal with composite, enhancing their power and
> length of use. Williams projects they will cost 15 to 20 percent more than original
> batteries. But he says they'll be popular with hybrid cars.
>
>
>
> _______________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> http://vote.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Geared weight is even worse! Suppose your 1st gear is a 10:1 overall
> ratio. Weight in your clutch, flywheel, and motor acts like it has
> ten times the effective rotational inertia! Another way to think
> about it is about 100 times more energy will go into this geared
> spinning flywheel than a stationary one bolted to the car upon
> accelerating. Figure a flywheel is about 1/2 the diameter of a wheel,
> and you can figure that every pound you take off the flywheel is like
> taking about 2 pounds off the car.
>
these are some of the reasons I like the lov joy couplers , total weight is
only a few lbs. What I have done in the past is to take the clutch spines
out of the clutch and weld it to one of the Lov joy couplers , the other
half I just buy with the 1 1/8 hole for the motor.
> Lightweight flywheels and pressure plates are well known racer's
> tricks, but generally discouraged for street use. A gas car with a
> very light flywheel is hard to start, idles poorly, and is easy to
> stall.
>
Maybe some day sombody will start selling a aluminum flywheel with a nice
taper lock hub in one unit , let the buyer put the holes for the presser
plate or the seller could do that also.
> For electric motors, however, no worries! Electric motors are smooth,
> and don't need a heavy flywheel to even out the torque pulsations.
> They can't stall, so no worries there. And they don't idle, so no
> need to worry about that -- and even if it does idle no worries. A
> lighter flywheel will give a bit better acceleration and a bit better
> range.
I don't think anybody has had both setup to really compare , I am planning
on redoing my Porsche and going form clutch to no clutch , the hub I made
for that car was .07 out , with 120 v it work fine but 240 showed a
vibration , I'll take some good measurements one power used with both setup
and then we'll have some real info.
steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We probably have wandered too far but...
When I was in college (about 1989) one of my professors was an AVID
cyclist. He lived 10 miles from the school and rode his bike every day
as long as the weather was nice (and this was in the Smoky Mountains of
NC!)
One of his students asked him why he did it, and he responded "its
cheaper than driving". One of the class called B.S., and seeing as it
was a math class, we decided to prove / disprove it. I don't have my
notes from then, but when everything was said and done, *IF* he got his
calories the cheapest way possible (I think we figured it at about $2.00
per "meal" and three meals per day) it was cheaper to operate just about
any automobile owned by any of the students than to ride the bike.
He stlll rode it everyday, just gave a different reason when asked.
James
Jon "Sheer" Pullen wrote:
A friend of mine, has work out the amount of energy he takes to run his
bike
1 mile.
He makes 1 hamburger per mile.
I think he made a big mistake. I made it out at about 1/20th the energy
found in a hamburger per mile on level ground, but I don't still have my
work so I don't know (and don't remember) how I got there. Perhaps someone
would be interested in doing a 'spherical cow' style back of the envalope on
this and announcing their results and the logic they used to get there?
Or perhaps we've again wandered off topic too far.
S.
--- End Message ---
