EV Digest 3855
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) EV X prize
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) FW: Electric cars
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Electric cars
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Battery capacity confusion
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Woodburn Stories
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Battery capacity confusion
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Woodburn Stories
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Electric Scooter race & The Tango.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Woodburn Stories
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Clutch Ruminations
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: vac. pump wiring & relay diode #
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Clutch Ruminations
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV 'X" prize? (part 2)
by "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV 'X' prize? (part 1)
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: 314.958!!! Buckeyes set new EV LSR
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Woodburn Stories?
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Life After Woodburn, pt. 1
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) DC to DC and isolation
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think I read that the other X prize was funded by a special type of
insurance policy purchased that basically bet on failure and lost,
Apparently a lot of things are funded this way.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
WOW, you beat him by a full car length to the 60 foot lights.
I was not aware that CaPoppy was that much quicker than White Zombie.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:32 AM
Subject: Woodburn Stories?
> Hi All,
>
> I've been pretty busy working on controllers and haven't even caught
> up on the EV list. Did I miss Johns post about Woodburn?
>
> It's just that Ken Lange sent me this nice video of one run against
> the Zombie and I was looking for a explanation. :-)
>
> The video is here: it's 1.1 mb.
> http://www.fat.cafeelectric.com/CapopeVsZombieNedra2004.mov
>
> Have fun!
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was quite surprised myself, until I made the rational
conclusion that CaPopE has 2,000 amps on tap at the start,
while Zombie doesn't until later on in the race(In which it
has more from 'the switch').
If Zombie had the same controller, it would have utterly
raped Otmar's porsche at the very beginning too. One can
only imagine the possibilities if Zombie were to get a Zilla
2k OR if Poppy would somehow miraculously shave off 500
pounds and keep the same battery pack and motor setup.
Otmar, any chance of a full video of that race ever
surfacing on the net?
>WOW, you beat him by a full car length to the 60 foot
>lights.
>
>I was not aware that CaPoppy was that much quicker
>than White Zombie.
>
>Joe Smalley
>Rural Kitsap County WA
>Fiesta 48 volts
>NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 9:55 PM -0700 10-15-04, Joe Smalley wrote:
WOW, you beat him by a full car length to the 60 foot lights.
I was not aware that CaPoppy was that much quicker than White Zombie.
It's not normally.
John was actually doing amazingly well to be running at all with all
the bad luck he had that day. Nevertheless, I'm hanging on to that
video! :-)
The video is here: it's 1.1 mb.
http://www.fat.cafeelectric.com/CapopeVsZombieNedra2004.mov
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar, any chance of a full video of that race ever
surfacing on the net?
That depends on if Ken Lange has a full video of it.
I have the bandwidth, if the original is there.
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Can someone provide assistance to this European interest for an EV?-Ed"Spare the air
everyday, drive electric."Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri 10/15, Vitor Oliveira <
[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
From: Vitor Oliveira [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 15 Oct 2004
19:28:29 +0100Subject: Electric cars
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What was the message? All I got was the header.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:41 PM
Subject: FW: Electric cars
> Can someone provide assistance to this European interest for an
EV?-Ed"Spare the air everyday, drive electric."Email:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri 10/15, Vitor Oliveira <
[EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:
> From: Vitor Oliveira [mailto: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 19:28:29 +0100Subject: Electric cars
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If one has a 48v pack with 42 pound 12v batteries at 42 ah. and a heavier
pack using 42pound 8v batteries also 42ah what is the amp hours of each
pack? Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think I retract my statement then. I figured it was the
2,000 initial amps of Poppy vs. the 1,400 initial amps of
Zombie that did the trick. I've certainly known Zombie is
quicker in the 0-60MPH run though!
Both of those cars are interesting. Along with Gone Postal,
those cars are the fastest converted street EVs lurking
around.
If only the batteries for long range were mass produced in
quantities needed for large scale EV production, along with
their appropriate management systems and other parts...
*drool*
I bet if Poppy ended up having the SAFT NiCds, performance
would have been sluggish by racing standards. 0-60 ~ 13? I'm
waiting to see an EV racer conversion with medium to long
range(80+ miles to 150+ miles) AND sub 14s in the quarter...
>It's not normally.
>John was actually doing amazingly well to be running
>at all with all
>the bad luck he had that day. Nevertheless, I'm
>hanging on to that
>video! :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
42 AHr each.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:04 PM
Subject: Battery capacity confusion
> If one has a 48v pack with 42 pound 12v batteries at 42 ah. and a heavier
> pack using 42pound 8v batteries also 42ah what is the amp hours of each
> pack? Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.......
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What did Bill Dube use in his VW Cabrolet? I thought he converted from
Optimas to NiCd a while back.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:42 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories
> I think I retract my statement then. I figured it was the
> 2,000 initial amps of Poppy vs. the 1,400 initial amps of
> Zombie that did the trick. I've certainly known Zombie is
> quicker in the 0-60MPH run though!
>
> Both of those cars are interesting. Along with Gone Postal,
> those cars are the fastest converted street EVs lurking
> around.
>
> If only the batteries for long range were mass produced in
> quantities needed for large scale EV production, along with
> their appropriate management systems and other parts...
> *drool*
>
> I bet if Poppy ended up having the SAFT NiCds, performance
> would have been sluggish by racing standards. 0-60 ~ 13? I'm
> waiting to see an EV racer conversion with medium to long
> range(80+ miles to 150+ miles) AND sub 14s in the quarter...
>
> >It's not normally.
> >John was actually doing amazingly well to be running
> >at all with all
> >the bad luck he had that day. Nevertheless, I'm
> >hanging on to that
> >video! :-)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Message: 1
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:23:45 -0400
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Anti-Gravity EV Expo: 2004
EV Scooter Drag Racing in South San Francisco
2004-10-05
http://technosanity.7gen.com/electric-vehicles/events/2004-08-antigravity.html
6-7 miles south of the intersection of Hwy 92 and Skyline Blvd.
Click for pix and story.
David Herron is an Energy Healer living in the San Francisco Bay area in
California.
David Herron
472 View Street
Mountain View, CA 94041
408-230-0819/877-919-3817
davidh@ 7gen.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Fri, 15 Oct 2004 09:57:44 -0400
From: RemyC <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Tango in Sync
Tango gets half a page in the Oct.Nov 2004 issue of Sync, a new GenX
lifestyle magazine on newsstands now.
Page 50 :: http://www.syncmag.com
Couple of pictures and short text, typed up below:
ELECTRIC AVENUE
TAKE THIS GAS-FREE DEMON FOR A SPIN.
Electric cars usually conjure images of patchouli-drenched hacky sack
aficionados-or Ed Begley Jr.-tooling around at school-zone speed while
sipping wheatgrass from solar-powered juicers. Straight outta Spokane,
Commuter Car Corp.'s blazing fast new Tango will run those hippies right off
the road-with a top speed of 130mph, this two-seater can go from zero to 60
in four seconds. But can the mighty mite hold its own on the road with
grown-up cars? Eleven hundred twenty-five pounds of batteries ballast the
Tango to the road, so it handles like a Porsche or Ferrari. No seriously. A
single charge is good for about 80 miles, and with its 38-inch width, you
can fit three Tangos into the back of your Hummer._JM (John Mihaly -
editorial assistant)
(John, don't know whether to say thank U or FU. Remy C. ET webed.)
Sync
Ziff-Davis
28 E 28th St., 11th Fl.
NYC 10016
212-503-3500
letters@ syncmagazine.com
Editor: Tony Romando
More on the Tango:
http://www.commutercars.com
Commuter Cars Corporation
715 E. Sprague, Suite 114
Spokane, WA 99202
(509) 624-0762 Fax (509) 624-1466
Rick Woodbury: (President)
bryan@ commutercars.com
Bryan Woodbury: (Vice President)
rick@ commutercars.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote Friday, October 15, 2004 10:13 AM:
> Bob Bath wrote:
> > if I recall, the diode that protects the relay contacts,
which is
> > in parallel with the vacuum pump load is about the same
current
> > rating as the pump (12-25A), and 5 times the voltage (144, so
say
> > between 500-1000V)?
>
> Your vacuum pump is running on 144v, not 12v? Why? 144v x 25a
is enough
> to drive the car down the road!
>
> Most of the vacuum pumps people use run on 12v. Yes, they can
draw
> 12-25a, though the running current on mine (from a GM car) is
more like
> 10a.
>
> The diode should have about the same current rating as the
load, but its
> voltage rating needs to be no higher than that powering the
motor. The
> lowest voltage diode you're going to find is probably still
30v, which
> is plenty for a 12v motor.
>
> Yes, you put the diode across the motor; anode to the positive
side,
> cathode to the negative side.
(I saw Victor's polarity correction.)
I have a Square-D switch that senses the vacuum in the system and
turns the pump on or off. The other switch/relay that has to
deal with turning the pump off is the main key switch relay (if
the pump is running and I get in a hurry and turn off the car).
Will the diode across the motor cover these two switches (I would
think so, and that I wouldn't need to put a separate diode across
each switch instead)?
So what about car turn-on time? It is rather unlikely that the
Square-D switch will be switching closed (the vacuum leaking
away) at the exact time that I turn on the car. But the main
key-switch relay will have to deal with starting that vacuum pump
(assuming I'm below the 10-in.-of-vacuum turn-on point). What do
I need for that? I recall Lee talking about some combination of
a capacitor and resistor to reduce the arc on switch contacts
when starting the pump up.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Add 50 to 100 kg of Lions as a hybrid pack and you could do it.
You might also be able to finesse it by great aerodynamics, like the
EV1 did.
You might also be able to muscle-car it. 60 Orbitals in a Camaro or
Firebird with chassis strengthening and all the Salt Flats aero
tweaks -- You'd have 20% more frontal area than a small car, but
about 2/3 the Cd and 2 to 3 times the energy on board. Of course,
such a car would be 2 or 3 times the cost of converting a smaller
car, and take 2 or 3 times as long to charge (this is why I didn't go
this route, and chose a smaller car instead!).
--- John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I bet if Poppy ended up having the SAFT NiCds, performance
> would have been sluggish by racing standards. 0-60 ~ 13? I'm
> waiting to see an EV racer conversion with medium to long
> range(80+ miles to 150+ miles) AND sub 14s in the quarter...
=====
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I like your calculations. What I have found out so far: Stock
flywheel is 225 mm and about 12.5 pounds. I think you could safely
assume it is a solid cylinder. A lighter flywheel saves 5 pounds, and
a lighter pressure plate saves 7 pounds. I can also remove the ring
gear (it is separate and bolted on), I'd guess it is another pound. I
plan to weigh mine if I wind up removing them (but since I'm buying
new ones there is no real need to remove the old ones).
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The torque to accelerate a mass like a flywheel is proportional to
> the
> mass moment of inertia and the rate of acceleration. If you use
> kg-m^2
> and radians per second you get torque in newton meters. A newton
> meter
> is about 3/4 of a foot pound. For cocktail napkin math, figure
> rpm/second = 0.1 radians per second squared. (really it is a factor
> of
> ~1/9.55 but this is an approximation) So a change of 2000 rpm in
> one
> second is about 200 radians per second squared.
>
> Simple enough, right? SO what is the mass moment of inertia of a
> flywheel. You could estimate it with a few formulae, or get a CADD
> jockey to spit it out. My hunch for a 4 cylinder flywheel is
> 0.1-0.2kg-m^2, and a motor rotor is like 0.02-0.05. But if someone
> e-mails me a drawing of a VW flywheel and pressure plate, I can get
> an
> estimate from my CADD software.
>
> A sample calculation:
>
> Stock flywheel, pressure plate, clutch. 1000 RPM/sec, 0.2kg-m^2.
> Call
> it 100 rad/sec^2*.2kg-m^2 or 20 Nm or 15 ft-lb. At stall you may
> have a
> lot of torque on tap, but accelerating from 4000-5000 rpm, 15 ft-lb
>
> might take a big bite out of the available torque. If you get an
> aluminum flywheel and keep a steel pressure plate, you might drop
> half
> the inertia thereby freeing up 7Nm. Doesn't sound like much, but
> that
> is a net gain. See below.
>
> Assume you have 80Nm available at 4000 RPM. You use 40 Nm to
> overcome
> wind drag, 5 for rolling resistance. That leaves you with 35 NM
> with
> which to accelerate. If you can accelerate at 100 rad/sec^2 in 2nd
> gear, then most of the remaining torque (20Nm) goes to the steel
> flywheel and pressure plate and you are left with 15 Nm. Or you
> accelerate more slowly. With the aluminum flywheel, you have a net
> 25Nm. 1.66X the net torque! Hypothetical, yes. But that is at least
> an
> illustration of where the data goes.
>
> I hope this illustrates this phenomenon a bit. And someone send me
> a
> drawing of a car flywheel, and I will get an estimate.
>
> Seth
>
>
>
> On Oct 15, 2004, at 7:26 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
>
> > I'll look forward to reading your test data. I wouldn't expect an
> > earth shattering improvement, but effectively maybe 60 pounds
> lighter
> > would be 2% faster acceleration, worth a tenth or two off the
> 0-60
> > time.
> >
> > I'd like to get all your videos on your grassrootsev site, can
> you
> > put one of those handy paypal things for that on your site? Would
> it
> > be easy for you to cram them all onto one DVD?
> >
> > Machining the hub right on the motor shaft sounds pretty clever.
> I
> > thought I remembered you posting you were buying commercial
> taperlock
> > couplers now. Which method do you prefer?
> >
> > --- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>> Geared weight is even worse! Suppose your 1st gear is a 10:1
> >> overall
> >>> ratio. Weight in your clutch, flywheel, and motor acts like it
> >> has
> >>> ten times the effective rotational inertia! Another way to
> think
> >>> about it is about 100 times more energy will go into this
> geared
> >>> spinning flywheel than a stationary one bolted to the car upon
> >>> accelerating. Figure a flywheel is about 1/2 the diameter of a
> >> wheel,
> >>> and you can figure that every pound you take off the flywheel
> is
> >> like
> >>> taking about 2 pounds off the car.
> >>>
> >> these are some of the reasons I like the lov joy couplers ,
> total
> >> weight is
> >> only a few lbs. What I have done in the past is to take the
> clutch
> >> spines
> >> out of the clutch and weld it to one of the Lov joy couplers ,
> the
> >> other
> >> half I just buy with the 1 1/8 hole for the motor.
> >>
> >>> Lightweight flywheels and pressure plates are well known
> racer's
> >>> tricks, but generally discouraged for street use. A gas car
> with
> >> a
> >>> very light flywheel is hard to start, idles poorly, and is easy
> >> to
> >>> stall.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Maybe some day sombody will start selling a aluminum flywheel
> with
> >> a nice
> >> taper lock hub in one unit , let the buyer put the holes for the
> >> presser
> >> plate or the seller could do that also.
> >>
> >>
> >>> For electric motors, however, no worries! Electric motors are
> >> smooth,
> >>> and don't need a heavy flywheel to even out the torque
> >> pulsations.
> >>> They can't stall, so no worries there. And they don't idle, so
> no
> >>> need to worry about that -- and even if it does idle no
> worries.
> >> A
> >>> lighter flywheel will give a bit better acceleration and a bit
> >> better
> >>> range.
> >>
> >> I don't think anybody has had both setup to really compare , I
> am
> >> planning
> >> on redoing my Porsche and going form clutch to no clutch , the
> hub
> >> I made
> >> for that car was .07 out , with 120 v it work fine but 240
> showed a
> >> vibration , I'll take some good measurements one power used with
> >> both setup
> >> and then we'll have some real info.
> >
> >
> > =====
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________
> > Do you Yahoo!?
> > Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
> > http://vote.yahoo.com
> >
>
>
=====
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There are several ways to cut the spike, and protect
relays. Capacitor/resistor can be used, but a diode is
cheap, easy, and does the job just fine.
A diode across the keyswitch relay will only protect
that one.
The pump will turn on/off while the key switch is
still in the ignition (on). Sooo, you've got to put a
diode in that circuit.
The more times a relay switches, the worse the
contacts eventually get. Thus, the keyswitch relay
might turn on 400 times per year, while the vacuum
pump may turn on 400,000 times per year or more.
Hope this helps.
>
> (I saw Victor's polarity correction.)
>
> I have a Square-D switch that senses the vacuum in
> the system and
> turns the pump on or off. The other switch/relay
> that has to
> deal with turning the pump off is the main key
> switch relay (if
> the pump is running and I get in a hurry and turn
> off the car).
> Will the diode across the motor cover these two
> switches (I would
> think so, and that I wouldn't need to put a separate
> diode across
> each switch instead)?
>
> So what about car turn-on time? It is rather
> unlikely that the
> Square-D switch will be switching closed (the vacuum
> leaking
> away) at the exact time that I turn on the car. But
> the main
> key-switch relay will have to deal with starting
> that vacuum pump
> (assuming I'm below the 10-in.-of-vacuum turn-on
> point). What do
> I need for that? I recall Lee talking about some
> combination of
> a capacitor and resistor to reduce the arc on switch
> contacts
> when starting the pump up.
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It isn't just the wight but the average diameter that matters. So the
ring gear definitely goes. On VW "inside out" flywheels (at least in to
the 1990s), there is a lot of mass at the rim, in my experience they
aren't all that flat. So a thickness and a diameter of the friction
surface and a depth and ID and OD of the outer ring are good. The
pressure plate is generally a rectangular cross section revolved about
the crank, so that is easy enough.
Oh yeah, is 225mm the friction surface diameter, or the OD? I bet it is
the friction suface diameter.
I am assuming you have all this apart :)
Seth
On Oct 16, 2004, at 4:48 AM, David Dymaxion wrote:
I like your calculations. What I have found out so far: Stock
flywheel is 225 mm and about 12.5 pounds. I think you could safely
assume it is a solid cylinder. A lighter flywheel saves 5 pounds, and
a lighter pressure plate saves 7 pounds. I can also remove the ring
gear (it is separate and bolted on), I'd guess it is another pound. I
plan to weigh mine if I wind up removing them (but since I'm buying
new ones there is no real need to remove the old ones).
--- Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
The torque to accelerate a mass like a flywheel is proportional to
the
mass moment of inertia and the rate of acceleration. If you use
kg-m^2
and radians per second you get torque in newton meters. A newton
meter
is about 3/4 of a foot pound. For cocktail napkin math, figure
rpm/second = 0.1 radians per second squared. (really it is a factor
of
~1/9.55 but this is an approximation) So a change of 2000 rpm in
one
second is about 200 radians per second squared.
Simple enough, right? SO what is the mass moment of inertia of a
flywheel. You could estimate it with a few formulae, or get a CADD
jockey to spit it out. My hunch for a 4 cylinder flywheel is
0.1-0.2kg-m^2, and a motor rotor is like 0.02-0.05. But if someone
e-mails me a drawing of a VW flywheel and pressure plate, I can get
an
estimate from my CADD software.
A sample calculation:
Stock flywheel, pressure plate, clutch. 1000 RPM/sec, 0.2kg-m^2.
Call
it 100 rad/sec^2*.2kg-m^2 or 20 Nm or 15 ft-lb. At stall you may
have a
lot of torque on tap, but accelerating from 4000-5000 rpm, 15 ft-lb
might take a big bite out of the available torque. If you get an
aluminum flywheel and keep a steel pressure plate, you might drop
half
the inertia thereby freeing up 7Nm. Doesn't sound like much, but
that
is a net gain. See below.
Assume you have 80Nm available at 4000 RPM. You use 40 Nm to
overcome
wind drag, 5 for rolling resistance. That leaves you with 35 NM
with
which to accelerate. If you can accelerate at 100 rad/sec^2 in 2nd
gear, then most of the remaining torque (20Nm) goes to the steel
flywheel and pressure plate and you are left with 15 Nm. Or you
accelerate more slowly. With the aluminum flywheel, you have a net
25Nm. 1.66X the net torque! Hypothetical, yes. But that is at least
an
illustration of where the data goes.
I hope this illustrates this phenomenon a bit. And someone send me
a
drawing of a car flywheel, and I will get an estimate.
Seth
On Oct 15, 2004, at 7:26 PM, David Dymaxion wrote:
I'll look forward to reading your test data. I wouldn't expect an
earth shattering improvement, but effectively maybe 60 pounds
lighter
would be 2% faster acceleration, worth a tenth or two off the
0-60
time.
I'd like to get all your videos on your grassrootsev site, can
you
put one of those handy paypal things for that on your site? Would
it
be easy for you to cram them all onto one DVD?
Machining the hub right on the motor shaft sounds pretty clever.
I
thought I remembered you posting you were buying commercial
taperlock
couplers now. Which method do you prefer?
--- Steve Clunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Geared weight is even worse! Suppose your 1st gear is a 10:1
overall
ratio. Weight in your clutch, flywheel, and motor acts like it
has
ten times the effective rotational inertia! Another way to
think
about it is about 100 times more energy will go into this
geared
spinning flywheel than a stationary one bolted to the car upon
accelerating. Figure a flywheel is about 1/2 the diameter of a
wheel,
and you can figure that every pound you take off the flywheel
is
like
taking about 2 pounds off the car.
these are some of the reasons I like the lov joy couplers ,
total
weight is
only a few lbs. What I have done in the past is to take the
clutch
spines
out of the clutch and weld it to one of the Lov joy couplers ,
the
other
half I just buy with the 1 1/8 hole for the motor.
Lightweight flywheels and pressure plates are well known
racer's
tricks, but generally discouraged for street use. A gas car
with
a
very light flywheel is hard to start, idles poorly, and is easy
to
stall.
Maybe some day sombody will start selling a aluminum flywheel
with
a nice
taper lock hub in one unit , let the buyer put the holes for the
presser
plate or the seller could do that also.
For electric motors, however, no worries! Electric motors are
smooth,
and don't need a heavy flywheel to even out the torque
pulsations.
They can't stall, so no worries there. And they don't idle, so
no
need to worry about that -- and even if it does idle no
worries.
A
lighter flywheel will give a bit better acceleration and a bit
better
range.
I don't think anybody has had both setup to really compare , I
am
planning
on redoing my Porsche and going form clutch to no clutch , the
hub
I made
for that car was .07 out , with 120 v it work fine but 240
showed a
vibration , I'll take some good measurements one power used with
both setup
and then we'll have some real info.
=====
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the suggestion I sent
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
Suggested Name of Challenge (i.e. WTN X Prize for ****):
The WTN $100,000 Challenge Race for Electric Vehicles
or
WTN\'s $100,000 Race to save the Planet!
Global Warming is a grave threat. We need better transportation solutions.
Recent incredible advances in battery technology, driven by the cell phone
and laptop market have changed the equation. Battery powered electric
vehicles (EVs) are the answer and the technology is available today. But to
succeed, EVs must improve and overcome the public\'s perception of them as
slow and unreliable. The technology needs to be pushed and public perception
of EV\'s needs to be improved. A race series would do both.
Brief Description of Suggested Challenge (No more than 600 words please):
A ten year, ten race series for electric cars built to \'street\'car like
rules, raced on a closed circuit road racing track. One race per year with
gradually increasing distance requirements. Starting Year 1 with 22 miles,
the distance the average US commuter drives to work (according to
http://www.theorator.com/bills107/hr1012.html (section 2 #6)). Each year the
distance should be increased. By year 10, the cars should race 150 miles.
The objective is to start with a fast exciting race that helps dispel
battery powered cars public \'golf cart\' image. Then each year, raise the
bar to force technological improvement. Increasing race length will
encourage technologic innovation such as quick charging pit stops, higher
energy density batteries, integrated regenerative braking, improved battery
management systems, increased efficiency.
While victory is likely to regularly go to professional teams, wide
publicity and a guarantied ten year series will encourage grass level racing
efforts. Developing the cars at club racing levels should be encouraged by
tailoring the rules to make the cars eligible for regional series such as
Sports Car Club of America\'s SPU class. This will increase exposure and
development. For an example of such a race car see www.ProEV.com.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 11:38 PM
Subject: Re: EV 'X' prize? (part 1)
> I sent a suggestion. Feel free to tear it apart, but please
> keep everything within the rules of the EVDL(ie. keep the
> politics to a minimum, although I'd be more than willing to
> debate that part off list). On a purely technological basis,
> how viable is the idea of a 150+ mile range at 70+ MPH speed
> EV with 0-60 acceleration comparable to a normal gasoline
> powered car, top speed about 80 MPH, and price tag of under
> $25k if it were to be mass produced? Would make an
> interesting debate.
>
Hi John an' All;
I'll comment on this one. We HAD the above, the EV-1, 'cept for the
under 25k .....but if GM grew thousands of them, betya the price woukda
dropped to the above. The nickle iron ones offered in CA. Now with the
laptop ones in the T Zero, there you are! Or something like that.
Legislating it into existance, like duel master cylinders, social security,
standard time, air brakes, automatic couplers,(trains) enough lifeboats for
ALL, 24/7 radio watches (ships) Stuff ya take for granted on Amtrak, Jet
Blue or Carnival Cruises......safety Stuff.
My two watts worth
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sam Uzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "evug list" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:10 PM
Subject: 314.958!!! Buckeyes set new EV LSR
> yeehawhawhaw!!
>
> awwesome, indeed... next move is to step up to the plate and take down
that
> pesky turbine car holding the all-category LSR!!!
>
> ---begin---
>
> This morning at 9:40am mountain time the Buckeye Bullet, driven by Roger
> Schroer, set a new Land Speed Record for the E-III class at 314.958
> mph. The vehicle duplicated the previous day's run with very similar
timed
> miles and an exit speed of over 318 mph.
>
Hi All;
Nice work! EVen would beat the Zombie with welded shut full on
contacters! IF John had enough room to let her go!<g>!
This even beats out by a few MPH the French TGV train 312 I think,MPH in
THEIR record setting run, but they cheated a bit, shortened up train, bigger
wheels, turned up the overhead power louder, specially earmarked track. Die
streight, perfect for the run, overhead power , no batteries. After these
tests train went back to it's usual work-a-day 180 mph or so pace, bears a
plaque stating it's high speed feat, lest we forget. Go to Train, France,
TGV, lots of cool stuff on line!Google into it.
Not to diss the Bucks stuff, Great day for EV's! Bettya they will be
back, nexr year with a 400 MPH speedo on board!
Bob, only 75 mph, car an" train
> Following the run Roger Schroer was inducted into both the 200 mph and 300
> mph clubs, and much celebrating commenced.
>
> This has been a very proud day for all involved.
>
> GO BUCKS!
> GO FAST!
>
> cheers,
> Giorgio Rizzoni
>
> ---end---
>
>
> (sorry if this is a repeat from this morning - my ISP is having
intermittant
> email blackouts)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar, Bob Rice had some nice footage of CAPOP (very impressive I might
add)as well as many other WB participants albeit in Hi-8 format. Maybe you
could combine his footage with Kens and whatever else surfaces into a more
or less complete "montage"? David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Otmar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, October 15, 2004 10:35 PM
Subject: Re: Woodburn Stories?
> >Otmar, any chance of a full video of that race ever
> >surfacing on the net?
>
> That depends on if Ken Lange has a full video of it.
> I have the bandwidth, if the original is there.
>
> --
> -Otmar-
>
> http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
> http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
OK, OK....I can see Oat�s baiting me:
>......haven't even caught up on the EV list. Did I miss Johns post about Woodburn?
>It's
>just that Ken Lange sent me this nice video of one run against the Zombie and I was
>looking for a explanation. :-)
It's now been three weeks since the BIG Woodburn electric drag racing EVent; time for
the
much anticipated, eagerly awaited for, Wayland report!
As many may already know, after running strong in May at PIR where White Zombie became
the
first door slammer street legal EV to both break 100 mph in the 1/4 mile and run a
sub-13
second ET, the car had a fairly wimpy showing this year at the races. It was an
unfortunate repeat of last year's Woodburn...well, sort of. Last year, White Zombie's
experimental 720 lb. 336V pack of 26 lb. Exide UPS style batteries turned out to be a
disaster with three batteries blowing up, the 1st one about halfway down the track, and
the other two blowing up on the second and final run, the minute the hammer was put
down
at the launch...argh!
This year after almost not even making it to the track (more on this to follow), I at
least got four runs in before calling it a day. The car wasn�t upgraded to 288V as had
been hoped for because of �problems� with it�s new SCR bypass �Afterburner mode�, and
there were other �difficulties� experienced before the car ever left the Wayland
backyard
EV laboratory. The first three runs were against Oat's California Poppy, who soundly
kicked the Zombie's butt...the worse part of those runs was having to listen to 'him'
rub
my defeat in, over and over :-( Geez...now the guy�s got a video to flaunt. Where�s
that
video of the Zombie�s tire roasting line-locked burnout? Come on folks, I know
�someone�
must have captured that one! The 4th run was a Poppy-eating 13.6 seconds...luckily, Oat
escaped the wrath of the Zombie when I was staged next to Bob Salem�s hot little Rabbit
pickup instead of the orange terror from Palo Alto. I�ll get back to the why�s and
how�s
of each of the four runs White Zombie made, but I want to first, detail all that
preceded
the day�s runs.
As seems is always the case, when dealing with race sponsors, no matter how early on
you
negotiate things and no matter how far in advance you plan, �stuff� arrives mere days
before race time! Such was the case, once again.....
Sunday, 9-19, 6 days before Woodburn, I wrote:
>I've got a ton of work to do on White Zombie, but everything seems to be falling in
>place.
>Today, Sunday....installing the four extra Orbitals, installing the new emergency
>disconnect mount...all high current conductors outside the car...prepping the motor
>bay
>for the new killer SCR Afterburner bypass...new bracketry needed to support the
>monster
>liquid cooled SCR and cap. bank...
Monday 9-20, 5 days before Woodburn, I wrote:
>....a new Afterburner bypass based on that mondo 61,000 amp surge, 4000 amp continuous
>rated liquid cooled SCR I mentioned and some aggressive film capacitors. If this setup
>works...if the Exide Orbitals continue to be as reliable as they've been at delivering
>staggering current levels in the area of 2500-2600 amps, I'll be able to make pass
>after
>pass to see what we can wring out of that b*tch of a Datsun!
Wed. 9-22, 3 days before Woodburn, I wrote:
>Well....today's the day, the day the BIG SCR with its pressure pack & chill plates and
>various other high current devices are supposed to arrive, the day the rear axle
>housing &
>custom 31 spline racing axles are supposed to be done and ready for pick up, the day
>the
>two extra contactors are supposed to be here, the day we're scheduled for early
>evening
>metal shop work, and the night the rear end and brakes are supposed to be installed
>in the
>car ...whew, lots to do!
I took a couple of days off from work, Thursday and Friday, so I could get my car ready
for the races..............
Thurs. 9-23, 2 days before Woodburn, I wrote:
>The monster SCR press-pack affair looks like something out of Star Wars! Anyway, all
>the
>stuff needed to build the solid state Afterburner bypass is here.... the Dutchman
>arrived
>at the Wayland EV juice bar in the early evening and had the all new rear end
>setup....absolutely beautiful craftsmanship! New axle housing, new racing axles, and
>all
>new everything that goes with these pieces. It's all very heavy duty, and it's very
>unlikely any of it will break anymore.....over to the metal fab shop and had an
>evening
>session where we made the new brackets and copper busses for the Stage II SCR based
>Afterburner....Today I'm off work, and will be painting up the rear axle and other
>parts,
>installing new brackets under the hood, and will be assembling the Afterburner
>array....As
>a back-up, a new SW200 Albright contactor who's contacts are paralleled with a 200 uF
>800V
>rated capacitor pair, is in series with the SCR and can be opened to shut it down.
>Hopefully, the combination of the snubber caps, the magnetic blow-out of the
>contactor,
>and a BIG freewheel diode across the motor pair to clamp back EMF, will take care of
>arcing. As a third shut-off option, I've still got the emergency disconnect at my
>right
>hand in the car to pull!....Tonight, the new axle assembly will be bolted into the
>car,
>with help from my fellow fork lift mechanics. Lot's to do in two days........
Friday, 9-23, last day before Woodburn, I wrote:
>Coworker Tim Brehm and I worked until 12:30 last night assembling the Zombie's new
>full
>race prepped rear end setup...we were joined by Steve Schraub, a top notch forklift
>wrench, will be installing the new electric Line Lock this afternoon as I finish up
>the
>electrical mods under way. Dutchman Motorsports did their typical sano work on the
>Zombie's killer Ford nine inch axle setup, and it dropped in and fit perfectly. The
>car's
>driveline is now perfectly centered in the tunnel, and with NHRA approved drag axles,
>a
>Detroit Locker, Strange gears, new brake parts, and tires that just barely tuck under
>the
>fender lips while completely filling the little Datsun 1200's rear fender wells...I
>went
>with 'Plan B' for the disconnect side of the SCR Afterburner bypass array...a beefy
>freewheel diode will be switched into circuit during motor parallel and bypass
>operation
>to clamp back EMF, and when the high side contactor opens to shut down the SCR, twin
>140
>.mfd, 800V non polarized film capacitors buss-bar connected to the contactor studs
>will,
>hopefully, absorb the flash-over energy between the opening contacts...If all this
>fails
>to take care of turn-off, I've still got the emergency pull-out disconnect at my right
>hand inside the car.
Soooo.....Friday night, the eve of the the BIG Woodburn races, it was the usual
pre-Woodburn scene at the Wayland EV juice bar. Out front, was Oat�s outrageous
s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d VW bus with its attached trailer, the EV Parts tow rig with the
enclosed
trailer housing Gone Postal, Bob Salem�s tow rig with tow dolly and the quick VW Rabbit
pickup, and numerous other vehicles. EV personalities too many to list, were
everywhere,
and wrenches, wires, gear oil, and electrical parts were flying as down in the EV
laboratory, White Zombie was still being assembled, and in front of it, California
Poppy
was also being tweaked. Rod Wilde was adjusting the Zombie�s loose steering box,
bleeding
brake lines, and helping Steve Schraub with the new electric line lock. The car was
still
up on jack stands, so the new rear axle setup had not yet been tested.
Under the hood, I was feverishly working on all the newest electrical stuff. In the
trunk,
the four extra batteries that would raise the car to 288V were still not installed, the
4/0 cables to connect them not yet made up, the hold-down bolt holes still not drilled
and tapped, etc., etc. By midnight or so, it wasn�t looking good for the car and
myself to
be ready �the night before�...oh well.
Saturday, race day, in the dark pre-dawn early hours, I was up and out back in my EV
shop
wrenching on the car, later adjoined by Oat. Everyone else had left for the track, and
it
was just Oat and I. We worked together, trying our best to get everything done. We had
resigned ourselves to the fact that we�d both get to the track late. Oat�s car was
ready
to go, but he stayed by my side to help me with the rest of everything to be done. By
10
or so, it looked as if we finally, were close to being
done........and.........then......it happened!
Stay tuned....
See Ya....John �Plasma Boy� Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently purchased the following switching power supplies to use as DC to
DC converters for my motorcycle.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3841986181
Up until now I have been using a seperate auxillary battery to power my my
lights, which works fine, it just has to be charged seperately. Now that I
am getting ready to install these instead or in conjucntion with the battery
I am wondering what kind of isolation issues I might introduce. For the most
part the lights on the bike have the frame connected as ground. Will I be
introducing a path from my traction pack to the frame of the bike if I use
these? They did not come with schematics.
Thanks
damon
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
