EV Digest 3824
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ultracaps
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
by Quin Pendragon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Street legal?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
9) Re: newbie questions, Diablo conversion
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Woodburn 2004
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ProEV's Imp on track!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Broken seal on end of Curtis????
by "Rick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EV Generators
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Newbie question
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Current Eliminator News...New major sponsor!!!
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
by Emil Naepflein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Woodburn 2004
by Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: FW: newbie questions, Diablo conversion +, Hurricanes, EV's and Oil
by "Steve Clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Klemkosky, Mark A wrote:
At what resistance would balancing not be required?
How much imbalance you want to accept?
The 2600F uCaps have 7 milli-ohms...
Don't know where you got this number but R_int is not
relevant. The current through resistor network has to
dominate capacitor internal leakage current to do the job.
I accepted 10% imbalance, meaning that each resistor
in parallel has to be such that the current through it
is 10 times more than leakage which is specified as 6mA
max. So for the current of 60 mA at max 2.5V, resistance
must be 2.5/0.06=41.667 Ohm.
I use 39 Ohm 1% 0.5W resistors.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill, this is exactly correct. Actually the story is this:
I allowed 80V drop initially and made my calculations
for 12sec and 70A average current (see my previous email).
However, Maxwell does not offer many values - only 1.8kF
and 2.5kF, so no matter what required value I'd come up with,
I'd have to choose one of the two. Since they offered
me only 2.5kF caps at surplus price (they no longer make this
version), the choice was clear, whatever outcome would be.
Victor
Bill Dennis wrote:
I think I read on Victor's web site that he designed his UltraCap system to
provide 10-second bursts of power. He put in enough UltraCaps so that they
would drop to 1/2 of their full voltage during that interval.
Victor, am I remembering that correctly?
Bill Dennis
It will be interesting the numbers Victor comes up
with. I believe they will show the uselessness of UC's
for an EV on the road in the real world.
For the road you need multipile and prolonged
power surges that UC's can't handle. If you only
needed them for a sec or two, they would be costly but
cool, but real world EV power needs don't stick to
very short bursts.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
. I've driven just the back drive
> and I know what a dog slow car feels like. "Gone Postal" is effective
> because of the all wheel drive.
>
> Roderick Wilde
> "Suck Amps EV Racing"
> www.suckamps.com
>
>
Oh fearless leader.
Give yourself some credit where it's due!
You are so far into the past with your motor racing skills that you can't
see what's been handed you.
Amps are NOT only thing that makes you move down the strip.
Amps in a motor that is NOT pukeing fire balls and brush chunks makes power.
It's pretty clear you have hurt the front motor now. That motor never
fireballed on me. EVER and I put 400 miles on it.
It was handed back to you with the best brush breakin it ever had , on all
the motors. Front and back.
so... If the front drive was blown just how did you find that 300+ hp to
jump to 98 Mph??
Didn't you get the Hint???? We can change that Dog slow issue in the Back
drives.
And NO Otmar does NOT have the advance that we have. So he CAN'T pull as
hard as we can up high.
He won't admit that, so he still gets to chase after the 100 mph Brass Ring.
If he shifted that nifty Turbo 930 tranny at about 900 Ft out he would
breakthrough the 100 mph Wall.
But Nooooo we will all do as Otmar says, and stay on the slow side of 100.
Look at your timing slips, and piece together how and where the back drives
shine. Then think what if...
Do I have to show you how....again!
Or are you just going to melt all your motors to the ground....because you
can. And somebody else paid for them???
Some of us Can't afford to rebuild the motors and tranny everytime we go
racing......Rod!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Klemkosky, Mark A wrote:
On a side note, I asked Maxwell for a quote on the 2600F 2.5v caps
that they sell. The quote they gave me had a confidentiality statement
attached, but in the range of volumes that I wanted (~100), the cost
per Farad is not close to what their website has as their "goal" price.
Until prices come down, I'm not quite sure of the viability of their
units for normal home fabricated EV's...
Mark
That is right, except you didn't define *normal* home fabricated EV.
and mainly who builds it.
If a person living on food stamps will want to build even
basic EV, it will probably be unreachable goal. On the other hand,
there are many for whom it is easy to plunk few tens of k for a
fun project.
I don't make 6 figures, but trying to maintain putting $3-4k per year
into my EV. So where I am today since 1995 represents about $30k,
but spread over this time, it was not too difficult *for my
circumstances*. Important point was I put simple EV on the road
really quickly and kept upgrading and having fun with it while
already driving. If I'd have to wait 10 years for drivable EV,
I'd perhaps drop whole idea.
Make realistic goal and see if the project is viable *to you*,
not hypothetical "normal" EV.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sounds to me like you want a controller based on current, not voltage.
I'm in the throes of designing one at the moment (damn you, power
electronics, damn you!) and, as far as I can see, it'll give you a
controller with accelerator and regen. brakes that behave very
similarly to a normal car.
Say you're at half throttle, the controller will vary the voltage
across the motor via PWM to ensure that the motor sees exactly half
the configured maximum current, and so is making 50% of maximum
torque. At zero throttle, the controller regulates the voltage across
the motor to be exactly equal to the back-EMF, so there is no current
drawn and hence no regenerative braking drag. When the brakes are
applied 50%, the controller regulates the motor current to -50% of the
current limit and you get 50% braking.
Did that make sense? I've never heard of a motor control scheme like
this - anyone have experience with such, or any reasons why it
wouldn't work? It works in my head, but then so do plenty of things
that don't in real life... :P
Cheers,
Quin
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:30:56 -0500, Andre Blanchard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I must have missed the locking part the first time.
> I do not think I have ever seen anything like that that could be engaged and
> disengaged while in motion. Most of the applications I have seen that need
> to freewheel or be locked up just use a regular clutch.
>
> Essentially what you are asking for is a regular clutch in parallel with the
> overrunning clutch.
> So could you not just use a regular clutch with the control system set to
> only engage it when the operator wants to accelerate or decelerate?
>
> Thanks,
> Andre' B. Clear Lake Wis.
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Grant Young
> Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 12:40 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: RE: Looking for compact over-run clutch for regen....
>
> > Andre,
> >
> > We're looking for one that has on-demand lockout so
> > that normally the motor can drive the wheel but the
> > clutch/freewheel allows the wheel to spin faster than
> > the motor. But for regen we need to lock the motor to
> > the wheel.
> >
> > Does that make any sense? If not, please let me know
> > so I can clarify further.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > grant-
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I sealed mine with silicone sealant when I had the
same thing happen.
No repercussions.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rick wrote:
> >
> > Hi Folks,
> >
> > I bought my first Curtis controller and it arrived
> today. It is "new", but
> > purchased from a 3rd party VIA Ebay. It's a
> 1204-201, 24-36 V @ 275 A. When
> > I was inspecting it after unpacking, I noticed
> that on the terminal end
> > cover plate the seal is lifted in the lower right
> corner and runs in each
> > direction for 2-3 inches. I noticed in the manual
> that Curtis recommends any
> > units with broken seals be replaced with another
> unit.
> >
> > So, anyone have any suggestions?? Bear in mind
> that I didn't get a specific
> > Curtis warranty, as I bought it outside the loop,
> so to speak.
> > Is this something that I can reseal with something
> and get by on or is there
> > something more to it than that.
> >
> > The unit shows no evidence of having been bolted
> down, paint looks new,
> > terminals have only superficial scrathes, like
> some slip-on terminals for
> > bench testing, and it bears a sticker marked
> Inspected by QC1.
> >
> > My second question is, what will happen if I
> connect this model of
> > controller to a series wound motor that has no
> sep-ex terminal for the field
> > windings?? (something like a circular saw motor
> with only two wires or
> > external connections)
> > I can't see why the controller would care,
> providing that it's not an
> > inssue about back EMF or inductance
> characteristics being so radically
> > different from PM to series.. For the price I gave
> for it, I'm not
> > complaining about whether it will work on a series
> motor or not. I had
> > intended to run a PM D.C. motor anyway, just a
> curious question.
>
> The actual seal is a black tarry substance (a
> potting compound) that
> they pour between the terminals and case. It isn't
> really a waterproof
> seal except in the minds of Marketing. In reality,
> it won't stay stuck
> to the case and terminals, due to thermal
> expansion/contraction. It may
> look nice when new, but shortly after being put in
> service this seal
> will crack.
>
> If the one on your controller is already cracked, I
> would take that as
> evidence that the controller has been used. But I
> wouldn't worry about
> it -- even if it was new, it would have cracked
> anyway as soon as you
> put the controller in service and had it warmed up a
> few times.
>
> > My second question is, what will happen if I
> connect this model
> > of controller to a series wound motor that has no
> sep-ex terminal
> > for the field windings?? (something like a
> circular saw motor
> > with only two wires or external connections)
>
> It will work just fine. The A2 terminal (connection
> between field and
> armature) is only used during plug braking, which
> isn't recommended for
> use with heavy vehicles anyway.
>
> > I had intended to run a PM D.C. motor anyway.
>
> This controller will be fine for a PM motor, too.
> The only precaution is
> that your motor should have at least 100uH or so of
> inductance, or the
> controller's current limit won't work right. And,
> the PM motor will do
> vigorous regen; be careful not to turn the motor
> backwards or it can
> damage the controller.
> --
> "Never doubt that the work of a small group of
> thoughtful, committed
> citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only
> thing that ever
> has!" -- Margaret Mead
> --
> Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
> leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
=====
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel? Are you
saving any gas for your kids?
_______________________________
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Declare Yourself - Register online to vote today!
http://vote.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Scooters go 18mph. These guys all modify them. He is racing against non
stock scooters with a non stock electric scooter. If you had attended one
of the scooter meets and seen one or more of Craigs creations you would know
better. I got to ride a scooter he made with an etek and it was much
scarrier than Otmars Porsche or John's Blue Meanie. At least up to 40 mph.
On something where your head barely comes up to Waylands doorknob that's
scary. In the last meet he came in second by a few yards with a smaller
pack. I guess he figured over kill was better than second place. Lawrence
Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: Deafscooter's 1 St place on Route 66 Rally 9/25
> Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > I have got to say this is an inspiration to all electric
> > racers. In his class he has squashed all the gassers. To be
> > honest though he is in a much higher class than the gassers
> > performance wise. It's nice to see an ev beatup all the
> > gassers.
>
> Not to belittle Craig's accomplishments, but first place in a field of
> one electric scooter is not really inspirational. How do we know he
> beat up all the gassers when we don't know anything about the
> performance achieved by any other participant in the rally?
>
> 57MPH peak speed is impressive, but was it downhill, uphill, or on the
> flat? And, how does it compare to the peak speeds of the other
> scooters?
>
> What was the average speed (Craig and everyone else)? It seems Craig
> used 2 sets of batteries to complete the rally, one 48V set of 40Ah
> Hawkers, and one 48V set of 12Ah batteries. This is a total of nearly
> 2.5kWh, which works out to 50Wh/mi over 50mi. A typical scooter with a
> pair of 12Ah batteries that goes 10mi achieves 29Wh/mi. So, was Craig's
> performance reasonable or exceptional? Does it appear to verify that
> his latest high performance/high efficiency motor is more efficient than
> a typical scooter's?
>
> Is there any place that actually documents the participants in each
> class of this event along with what prizes/titles were won and by who?
>
> The AMMRA site <http://www.ammra.com/Rt.66Rally4.html> only seems to
> keep a photo album of each event; no record of who won what place in
> what class, out of what field of competitors, etc.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<I think he is selling the whole business. Lawrence Rhodes........>>
Yes, and I think the legality may hinder selling a business - otherwise, you're
marketing to private road use only.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> I think Victor is using resistors across his capacitor
> cells (equivalent to Rudman regulators for lead-acid
> batteries). Can you elaborate, Victor?
Sure, about equalization and other things.
Don Cameron wrote:
Simon, I think you should still have a open mind to the ultracap
solution... Victor's page for Ultacaps cites many benefits...
- no charging and equalization
- lifecycles > 500,000
- DOD to 100%
- no maintenance
I agree; we should keep an open mind. That means not writing them off as
a "wild, unproven solution" -- and also not embracing them as "miracle
cure" that should be adopted without question. Ultracapacitors are just
another tool in our designer's toolbox. Use them when they solve a real
problem -- and don't use them when they don't!
Well said Lee. Little problem - if everyone waits until
someone else tells what works and what doesn't, then nothing
ever can get invented or tried.
I had no one to ask if the solution as mine will practically
work. Everyone can type on the list, but app that was just
opinions and projections, e.g. noise. So I did the research,
made calculation to the best of my abilities, bit the bullet,
spent money and did it. Solution happen to work, but I was
ready to accept failure.
A feature list like the above is written by Marketing. It's what they
HOPE is true, and what they WANT you to believe so you'll buy them. But
it has NOT been proven as fact.
I perfectly realize that too.
- no charging...
Obviously, you need to charge them. Every watt you take out must have
...
Apparently I need to re-do this page so people doesn't take the
words literally, out of context. If Don would quote whole
page it would be clearer what I meant.
Everything about ultracaps here is compared to the batteries.
"No charging" I meant no requirements to have typical
bulk/equalize/float/whatever charging regime. No such
thing as undercharging. 2.5VPC (volts per *cap*) - fine.
Never more than 2V - fine. 1V - fine. 0V on it - fine
(e.g. it cannot do the work but not ruined as in case of
0V on a battery)
If you avoid such a controller (by parallelling the capacitors with a
main pack, perhaps with a diode or contactor or two), then you can't
control the capacitor's state of charge.
As long as I don't exceed the max voltage per cap, I don't
care about SOC. I utilize capacitor's ability to resist
the voltage changes, to stiffen and relieve my pack, and
degree of it is not SOC dependent.
You won't get any large voltage
change on the capacitors, and so won't be able to use most of their
energy storage capability.
This is true, but fine compromise with me. I don't use
(and rely on) capacitors' energy, I use *only* their power.
And, if you depend on trading energy back and forth with a main battery,
then you are suffering an efficiency "hit" for each transfer in/out.
If you calculate the loss in watts, it is absolutely minimal.
recharging efficiency is near 100%, AH efficiency is about
exactly 100%. But even without it, it would be OK compromise
for my goal priority list.
- no equalization...
Just as for batteries, if you have no equalization, then you have no way
to balance out differences between cells. It only works if you have
...
I think Victor is using resistors across his capacitor cells (equivalent
to Rudman regulators for lead-acid batteries). Can you elaborate,
Victor?
Again, no as complex equalization as for batteries.
For Lead Acids you need at least Rudman style shunt regulators.
For the caps resistor network is very acceptable. The max power
loss on all resistors in my case is 400V*0.06A=24W.
- lifecycles > 500,000
Note that *every* new technology always claims "infinite" life. That's
before they've run any life tests, and so don't know what the failure
mechanisms are.
Yes. I figured even if they lie bu a factor of 10, 50,000 cycles
will outlive my car many times over. I'm sure, by the time they are
dead there will be better solution.
Ultracapacitors are a lot like electrolytic capacitors. Electrolytics
have been around long enough that we know they have serious life and
performance limitations, especially due to temperature and aging. They
are better than batteries, but still among the least reliable electronic
components we have.
So, I have to assume that ultracapacitors will have a life expectancy
like electrolytic capacitors. That means you get long cycle life only at
very shallow depth of discharge, serious performance degradation at low
temperatures, major reductions in life at high temperatures, and big
changes in performance if they are left sitting for long periods.
This may be the case, I cannot comment. But none of these conditions
are expected where I live and in the way I drive.
If they fail, I'll throw them away and start over with
something better. So I'd just loose some (not yet depreciated)
money, that's all. Price to be the first. What else is the problem?
However, batteries have these problems, too. So, the big (unanswered)
question is whether ultracapacitors will turn out to be better (or
worse) than similarly-priced batteries.
- DOD to 100%
Well; yes, with limitations. The big one is that go go from 0% to 100%,
you have to take the voltage from 0v to max. This is too wide a range to
be practical. Even with an expensive DC/DC converter, you are unlikely
to be able to get more than a 4:1 range. That limits the range to
15-100%.
The pack in my case should not see 100% DOD for its life.
DC-DC solution would utilize more of their available energy,
but this benefit does not outweigh the cost and complexity of
such a DC-DC. Again, the goal was to make pack stiff, to relieve
LiIons from supplying high peak currents and to take regen.
All 3 achieved. Anything else is a bonus. Low energy usage is OK,
this is not what they are for.
- no maintenance
Which is the same claim made for all sealed batteries. I don't think we
have any evidence yet that ultracapacitors have any less maintenance
than sealed batteries.
In any system consisting of dozens or hundreds of sealed cells
(batteries or capacitors), "maintenance" really means periodically
checking them, and replacing the bad cells. This has to be done on some
time frame, usually 6 months to a few years.
Again, no same maintenance as for batteries - meant no voltage
checking, no electrolyte checking (for wet cells), no "weak"
capacitor (unless defective to begin with).
Of course, in many cases, the cells are bonded together in groups (a
"battery"), and you *can't* replace individual cells. Sure -- this
lowers maintenance cost -- by replacing it with higher replacement cost.
I think it is important to make a distinction between an experimental
solution and a practical solution.
Did I ever claim that my solution is practical? :-)
I keep telling everyone that ACRX is the test bed for me to
try things and never ending project. I *don't want* it to be
a practical EV, this is the goal for my other, "family" EV.
Summary
...
But ultimately, you have to run the numbers (and do the tests to verify
that the numbers aren't just marketing lies).
Isn't is exactly what I do?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Victor, what value resistors are you using?
39 Ohm each
How many watthours/day do they use?
25 Watts of power, like a 25W light bulb. So, apparently,
25Wh in an hour or 600Wh in a day (24 hours).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does this _really_ belong on the open list (EVDL) Rich?
IMHO, some of it is inappropriate for public consumption.
Opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one.
If you want to fight with Rod, please do it in private.
Roy
------------------------------------
Rich Rudman wrote:
I've driven just the back drive
and I know what a dog slow car feels like. "Gone Postal" is effective
because of the all wheel drive.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
Oh fearless leader.
Give yourself some credit where it's due!
You are so far into the past with your motor racing skills that you can't
see what's been handed you.
Amps are NOT only thing that makes you move down the strip.
Amps in a motor that is NOT pukeing fire balls and brush chunks makes power.
It's pretty clear you have hurt the front motor now. That motor never
fireballed on me. EVER and I put 400 miles on it.
It was handed back to you with the best brush breakin it ever had , on all
the motors. Front and back.
so... If the front drive was blown just how did you find that 300+ hp to
jump to 98 Mph??
Didn't you get the Hint???? We can change that Dog slow issue in the Back
drives.
And NO Otmar does NOT have the advance that we have. So he CAN'T pull as
hard as we can up high.
He won't admit that, so he still gets to chase after the 100 mph Brass Ring.
If he shifted that nifty Turbo 930 tranny at about 900 Ft out he would
breakthrough the 100 mph Wall.
But Nooooo we will all do as Otmar says, and stay on the slow side of 100.
Look at your timing slips, and piece together how and where the back drives
shine. Then think what if...
Do I have to show you how....again!
Or are you just going to melt all your motors to the ground....because you
can. And somebody else paid for them???
Some of us Can't afford to rebuild the motors and tranny everytime we go
racing......Rod!
---------------------------------
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
_________________________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cliff Rassweiler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:43 AM
Subject: ProEV's Imp on track!
> It almost didn't happen! We had to work some late nights. And late nights
> mean mistakes. While we didn't have any 'Plasma Boy' caliber pyrotechnics,
> we did manage to put our PFC50 charger out of action. Note to self: When
> charging, positive to positive, negative to negative, not visa-versa.
>
You did it AGAIN!????
Geez I just fixed that feature.... a couple of months ago.
Hurry I have 4 PFC50s in stock.... Er 2. Two are sold...
As of today....
I can get you the XRev... but we need to talk first, Since it's kinda
modified for the PFC150 project...
Modified... for 75 amps of grid, counter flow Fans, and Back entry
Cables.... All 4 Gage....At your voltages... that would be a 18Kw
charger....
Skunk works chargers.... Fly with caution!!!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> The actual seal is a black tarry substance (a potting compound) that
> they pour between the terminals and case. It isn't really a waterproof
> seal except in the minds of Marketing. In reality, it won't stay stuck
> to the case and terminals, due to thermal expansion/contraction. It may
> look nice when new, but shortly after being put in service this seal
> will crack.
>
Hi Lee, thanks for the reply. I was thinking something along those lines,
and I happen to have formed the opinion that Curtis would love to sell more
controllers. I expect the heat of shipping inside hot trucks wraught havock
here, so I'll hope that I can find something to stick it down with that will
actually form a better seal and locate the controller inside a forced vented
box. I love squirrel cage BLDC fans! The plate pulled away from the heatsink
edge, but around the terminals is still good,...for now. We'll see after I
use it a bit.
>
> It will work just fine. The A2 terminal (connection between field and
> armature) is only used during plug braking, which isn't recommended for
> use with heavy vehicles anyway.
>
I'm glad that my instincts seem to be on track here. I thought it should
work, but why smoke a great priced item just to learn the hard way. I
certainly don't expect to use plug braking, so I'll escape that whole
scenario. For Phoenix Metro area, coasting seems to be the way to go. Not
enough or steep enough hills here to make plug braking worth the hassles
related to blowing diodes and controllers.
> > I had intended to run a PM D.C. motor anyway.
>
> This controller will be fine for a PM motor, too. The only precaution is
> that your motor should have at least 100uH or so of inductance, or the
> controller's current limit won't work right. And, the PM motor will do
> vigorous regen; be careful not to turn the motor backwards or it can
> damage the controller.
> --
The ad stated very clearly for PM D.C. motors only, so that was the intended
use, but why use one H.P when you can have 5 or more on the same project
just by swapping motors?? I bet I'd need a MEGGER (SP?) to measure the
inductance? Is there another way? How about an MFJ antenna analyzer that
will measure inductance of coils and baluns for amatuer radio use? Probably
use the lowest frequency, which would be 1.8 Mhz. ???
Is there a way to block the controller from getting reverse polarity from
any backwards motion that might accidentally happen on slight inclines??
What rating/type of diode would you reccommend and where would you place it
in the circuit?
Thanks for the info Lee. I'm pretty excited about having an EV that will go
faster than 22 MPH. :-))
Regards,
Rick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
Does the generator hook
up to the battery pack looking like just another power source in parallel?
Yes, with a circuit breaker for protection and disconnect when working on
it, and an Ammeter shunt in series with one of the connections.
I am using eCycle Permanent Magnet Brushless DC motors spun by Honda
engines, with a 3-phase diode bridge to produce DC directly, like an
alternator. Using a 120VAC single phase standard home power generator would
not be as efficient, nor allow the voltage and current output to be adjusted
directly with governed engine RPM.
If so, let's say someone installs a 10kW generator. If the car is drawing
only 9kW of power, does 9kW go into the motor, and the other 1kW go into
charging the battery pack?
With the type of generators I am making, generally the engine RPM can be
adjusted to provide some battery charging under light load. Since I have
only made 5kW units so far (still waiting for my 14kW MG3-36LC), charging
only occurs at very light load. The 14kW unit will be able to maintain a
higher battery charging voltage level much of the time. A "10kW generator",
even of the type described above, would only supply 10kW under certain load
conditions it is perfectly matched for. If you reduced the load current,
the voltage would probably not go up by the same percentage to keep the
power constant. In fact, you wouldn't want it to behave like this, as it
would be too easy to overcharge the batteries under light load. How much
the voltage rises as the load is dropped would depend if the engine was
overloaded and not able to make its set speed, and then with lighter load it
will speed up. One of the advantages of this type of PM BLDC 3-phase
generator is that the voltage output is dependent on RPM, with some drop
according to the load. If you have some reserve speed and torque available
from the engine, you can advance the speed setting to increase the voltage
more to charge the batteries. There are lots of variables to consider as
the batteries can be at differing states of charge at different times, and
the motor load current is varying also as you drive. It is not like running
a light bulb off a 120VAC generator that has a regulated, nearly fixed,
output voltage and the bulb draws a fixed current at that constant voltage.
An important consideration is that BLDC motor/generators are available in
certain discrete voltage output choices (Volts per 1000 RPM rating -
multiply by 3 to get a rough realistic estimate of output at 3600 to 3900
RPM) and battery packs come in discrete voltage values, jumping by 6 or 12V.
The single stack 5kW size has the most voltage choices, so lets take a look
at 3 practical examples of design using my 84V to 96V vehicles:
Try an eCycle MG-24, Back EMF of 25.5V/1000 RPM and 57A max, highest Amps
and lowest torque per Amp required: At 3600 RPM, only about 74V output at
useable current, and that is not enough voltage. However, if you overspeed
the engine a lot, you can get say 93 V at 15 A for charging a low battery
pack, and 80- 84V at much higher current, depending on engine torque
available, for driving. That doesn't sound like a good idea, but if you
have only a small engine, like a 5HP GC-160, and want a light compact unit,
using the MG-24 at high RPM would be the way to get the most current from
this engine. This is true because it gives more current than a higher
voltage MG for the torque this engine can produce, and you are getting
relatively high power out of a small engine.
How about the next voltage up, an MG-30? This is a better choice, rated at
BEMF 31.8V/1000RPM and 47A maximum. Couple it to a 6.5HP GX-200 and you can
have up to 35A charging without overreving as much, and 50A running at 84V
(sandwich a large thick aluminum plate to the MG-30 for heat sinking when
mounting it). This is what I have now under the back of the Skoda pickup.
It matches well to 93V TS Li Ion sagging down to 84V AGM batteries support.
Set the speed lever to max and it will charge a low 84V pack or my hybrid
pack, at about 35A and provide more than 50A under load (driving). With a
fairly discharged battery pack and high motor load, the engine speed setting
should be reduced.
Couple the newer generation MG-30 with good added cooling to a GX-270 9HP
and you could probably get near to 6 kW out. I have one of these to try
when I find some time, and spare money to buy the 9HP engine. Once built,
it will probably get installed in the pickup to provide a small power
upgrade over the existing 2002 model MG-30 and 6.5HP engine.
Or an MG-36? BEMF 38.3V/1000RPM and 40A maximum. For an 84V system, the
engine would have to be run slower, developing less power than with the
MG-30, to provide the correct voltage range. Current output would be lower,
which makes sense, since there is less input power from the engine and
considering the lower current limit of the MG-30. So both the engine and
MG-30 would not be delivering the output they are capable of.
But for a 96V system, the MG-36 would be near perfect: Raise the engine
RPM and get about the full rated output of both the engine and the MG-30.
For higher voltage battery packs, there are not as many choices: the MG-48,
BEMF 51.5V/1000 RPM, 29A and MG-62, BEMF 65V/1000 RPM and 24A.
The MG-48 would probably be optimum for a 144V pack and the MG-62 good for a
180V system.
If you have a 120V battery pack/system, you would need to use the MG-48, but
at lower RPM and power rating, so as to operate at the correct lower
voltage.
The larger eCycle 10kW and 14kW sizes have less choices as the power and
size are increased. All sizes have an MGx-36, so I am well supported with
my 93 and 96V systems. You might find some other manufacturer's BLDC unit
that has Voltage output and current in-between an MG-30 and an MG 48, that
you could use at 3600 - 3900 RPM on a 120V system. Or maybe not. But you
can see from the above how it goes and the design exercise needed to choose
the motor/generator unit suitable for your EV battery voltage. Perhaps it
would be better to do this early and choose the battery pack voltage
according to the available generator choices.
HTH
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2004 3:12 PM
Subject: RE: Thunder Sky & AGM hybrid pack Re: Thundersky Lithium
Thanks for the good info (again), Doug. I have a question about your
generator--actually, generators in EVs in general. Does the generator
hook
up to the battery pack looking like just another power source in parallel?
If so, let's say someone installs a 10kW generator. If the car is drawing
only 9kW of power, does 9kW go into the motor, and the other 1kW go into
charging the battery pack?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> Victor, what value resistors are you using?
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> 39 Ohm each. 25 Watts of power... 25 Wh in an hour or 600 Wh in a
> day (24 hours).
Thanks! So, the capacitor's balancing resistors use 0.6 KWH per day.
That is a high "self-discharge" rate, but acceptable if you can keep the
car plugged in.
Or, arrange things so you disconnect the capacitors when parked, let
them go dead, and recharge them when you start driving.
Or, use zener diodes or some more elaborate circuit (like Rudman
regulators). My guess is that as the capacitors age, you will see larger
variations between them, so more aggressive balancing may become
necessary (same as for batteries; new batteries are easy, old ones get
hard).
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
rule # 1 KISS
rule # 2 make it work until you can figure out how to keep it simple
if you need 2 types of batteries and ultracapcitors, i tsuggests 1 of
the other 2 choices could be made better.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis, Thanks for finally coming out of the closet. Now we are all
waiting for the details.
Roderick
To my friends in Vegas and all others visiting the SEMA show november
2-5.Come out and see the CE hanging on the front entrance wall of the Sands
Convention Center.Try your luck at winning the great prizes in our
booth. Dennis
Kilowatt Berube 3900 qt.mi.ev.passes in 14 years.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 28 Sep 2004 13:35:08 -0700, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> What I meant was you don't need the same equalization complexity
> as for a battery (shunt regulators, or like). Simple resistor
> network will do.
This kind of passive equalization is only feasable if you don't have
high current chargin like regen on the capacitors. The small current
flowing through the bybass resistors cannot provide equalization if you
charge with 1000 amps. As I have seen most providers of high capacity
ultracapacitors recommend active equalisation, and the circuit is
exaclty like the one you use for the TS lithiums - a voltage clamper.
Emil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes, sidline quarterbacking racing is all that ever goes on, on this
list. It's what makes it fun and gets the viewers to tune in. Hey
Roy, You ever seen reality TV, Well take it from me it ain't reality.
Where the rubber meets the road is where reality is and if it's too
hot in the kitchen for you then back off as Rudman and I duke it out
on the forum. If the higher ups can't take it they will tell us to
take it elsewhere. Otherwise chill dude!
Roderick
Does this _really_ belong on the open list (EVDL) Rich?
IMHO, some of it is inappropriate for public consumption.
Opinions are like a$$holes, we all have one.
If you want to fight with Rod, please do it in private.
Roy
------------------------------------
Rich Rudman wrote:
I've driven just the back drive
and I know what a dog slow car feels like. "Gone Postal" is effective
because of the all wheel drive.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
Oh fearless leader.
Give yourself some credit where it's due!
You are so far into the past with your motor racing skills that you can't
see what's been handed you.
Amps are NOT only thing that makes you move down the strip.
Amps in a motor that is NOT pukeing fire balls and brush chunks makes power.
It's pretty clear you have hurt the front motor now. That motor never
fireballed on me. EVER and I put 400 miles on it.
It was handed back to you with the best brush breakin it ever had , on all
the motors. Front and back.
so... If the front drive was blown just how did you find that 300+ hp to
jump to 98 Mph??
Didn't you get the Hint???? We can change that Dog slow issue in the Back
drives.
And NO Otmar does NOT have the advance that we have. So he CAN'T pull as
hard as we can up high.
He won't admit that, so he still gets to chase after the 100 mph Brass Ring.
If he shifted that nifty Turbo 930 tranny at about 900 Ft out he would
breakthrough the 100 mph Wall.
But Nooooo we will all do as Otmar says, and stay on the slow side of 100.
Look at your timing slips, and piece together how and where the back drives
shine. Then think what if...
Do I have to show you how....again!
Or are you just going to melt all your motors to the ground....because you
can. And somebody else paid for them???
Some of us Can't afford to rebuild the motors and tranny everytime we go
racing......Rod!
---------------------------------
Roy LeMeur Olympia, WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
_________________________________________________________________
Check out Election 2004 for up-to-date election news, plus voter
tools and more! http://special.msn.com/msn/election2004.armx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <
> I'm having to write fast because my power is out
> for more than 30 hrs now and it doesn't look like it
> will be restored quickly as so many other places are
> still without power around the SE US making resources
> thin.
Power that comes out of the wall in your house????? what is that.???
> But the EV's I have are still supplying me with
> lights, TV, computer, refrig and most important, fans.
me to again , but no refrig . still had all the stuff out so set up wasn't
that hard, and now I can have batteries in the house without the wife
gettting mad.
> It hit worse of all right on Steve Clunn again a
> second time in Ft Pierce on the east coast, he's had
> some really bad luck, hope he's ok..
One good thing , the city is not on me about cleaning up the yard , and I
really did clean it up just before Frances , and almost had it back when the
2nd one came .
> Oil's over $50 BBL again overnight even quicker
> than I predicted last winter. Luckily we all have Ev's
> with the most secure fuel around, electricity!!
The problem is when things start coming apart people seem to go for the
quick fix even more , . It is amazing how fast people are buy generators but
when I sagest using an inverter / battery and solar panel , well I have 10
panels and don't think I could sell them for what they cost (not that I
would) . So what do you think will happen , fuel cells , I can smell them
now , EV's that will cost 100k and not work near as well as what we have now
with people waiting in line for them and to fill them. .....
I've been reading the Diablo kit car conversion post and as some may
remember I'm doing a 2 motor conversion for Paul
www.paulsexotics who makes fiberglass kit cars . The 912 has been sitting
in my yard since the beginning of the summer. I have the 2 8 " motors in
and battery boxes in the back done ( the car will hold 25 excides easy).
Paul is planning on putting his Porsche GT1 body on it , . Like some of the
other projects , it's kind of waiting for somebody (him or me) to buy a
controller ,charger and the other parts to finish it up . It may not be
everything Simon is looking for but its close to having the hard part done
, unless spending money is the hard part , . I have no idea what Paul want
for it but everthing is for sale.
I talk to a lot of people that are thinking along the lines that Simon might
be thinking , and that is to make something "better" than some gas car they
like. I try to tell them that EV's have there own type of magic, something
that surpasses the speed thing , the cost little to drive thing , Something
that they have no idea about , even a "plane Jane" conversion can give you
that EV grin . The fun of building and learning to care for an EV is hard
to convey .
Steve Clunn
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